Interworld Para Terraforming

Void · 2024-08-26 08:11:13

I want to start this specifically for "Interworld Para Terraforming".

There already is a contest between the Vision Type of Elon Musk and the Vision Type of Jeff Bezos. For some time, I have been moving towards this, this is Jeff Bezos for the Moon, Mars, Venus, and other worlds. It is not anti-planetary, rather it is something like nomads on Earth who might not really have been connected to one planetary location. In this the nomads would not be connected to any one world but are the result of the connections to many worlds. Although I say nomad, in reality cities in orbit might also host permanent residents, and people who do "Nomad".

In many cases these orbital cities might connect to settlements on various worlds, and sometimes the settlements would have significant humans but very often they might be more for Robots.

Here is a post from a topic for the Moon: https://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.ph … 71#p226071

And of course, we are likely getting into space station technology, which currently is emerging around the Earth, but where there may be be small starts for the Moon.

Vast Space is the most Intersolar of the visions that I know of: https://www.vastspace.com/

The moderators can of course give instructions to modifications if they may like to.

Done

Here is a reference to a device which I think might disserve some attention: https://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.ph … 55#p226055

This is more or less a Solid Rocket Booster, which might be made of "Native" raw materials from places like the Moon, or Olympus Mons on Mars.

This would be more like a solid rocket booster, but the philosophy for it would be different. It would not be a booster for anything but itself.
Its remainder after use would be the product delivered to an orbit. It would be likely to operate in a gravity field of that of Mars or less. So possibly Mercury in the far future.

The desire is that they be mass produced by a robotics factory, and the preference is low-cost materials, but "Good Enough" quality materials.

A possible type of materials for propellants might be Oxygen Ice impregnated with very fine Aluminum Powders, and with a "Pinch" of water ice or Hydrocarbon. (It will need proving).

These may be possible to build in robot factories on the Moon, Mars, and Mercury perhaps, but not necessarily only those worlds.

A target of sending would be orbital worlds constructed in part from these materials.

The device is intended to replace the need for Mass Drivers, and Skyhooks, but it also could be made to work with those devices also perhaps.

The use of metamorphosis may also be involved. For instance, a Lunar Orbital Space Station, might receive these and use them as build materials to create devices that could Aerobrake into the atmosphere of Venus, to either orbit Venus or to supply cloud cities.

Floating cloud cities primarily of automation and robots may then provide the materials to orbit, of Venus of Ammonia, Hydrocarbons, and Heavy Water. Cities orbiting Venus may in part convert some of that to woody organic products. So, an organic chemistry that could be sent to our Moon and the orbital habitats/factories of it. It may turn out to be quite hard to have spacecraft that can tolerate the acid of Venus, but I am supposing that it will be a solvable problem.

Methods to transfer cargo could include Mass Drivers, that expel magnetic dust, or Oxygen. Chemical Rockets of course. Neumann Drives (If they can be scaled up in size), Solar driven propulsions, Spin Launch Methods in orbit, and many others.

As I see it if it is possible to send heavy materials to orbit Venus and also to extract organics from Venus, then it may be that the orbits of Venus would be a nice place for humans to live, and so there could be a large amount of habitation there for humans.

Of course, some of the heavy materials might come from asteroids as well, not just the Moon.

Done

Last edited by Void (2024-08-26 09:05:14)

tahanson43206 · 2024-08-26 09:34:24

This post is intended to hold an index to posts that may be contributed by NewMars members over time.

(th)

Void · 2024-08-26 10:21:44

An alternative to cloud cities to capture products could be to try to "Snatch" them from orbit.

This article does not seem to have much for Venus, but still, some of the ideas could apply: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atmospheric_mining
Quote:

Aerostats
An aerostat would be a buoyant station in the atmosphere that gathers and stores gases. A vehicle would transfer the gases from the aerostat to an orbital station above the planet.[1]
Scoopers
A scooper would be a vehicle that gathers and transfers gases from the atmosphere to an orbital station.[1]
Skyhook
A Skyhook (structure) is similar to a space elevator, such a device would be used to pump gas to an orbital propellant depot.
Cruisers
A cruiser would be a vehicle in the atmosphere that gathers and stores gases. A smaller vehicle would transfer the gases from the cruiser to an orbital station.[1]

I tend to favor the Skyhook for "Snatching". For Venus the bow shock and other features of the upper atmosphere may be interesting.

The collision of the solar wind may offer Hydrogen, Helium from the solar wind, and whatever is present in the upper atmosphere of Venus.
I suspect that at least Oxygen would be there.

I think it may be propulsively possible to extract energy by "Soaring" to lift materials to orbit.

A new idea that might enter is salts, as China fond minerals that had strong hydration on the surface of the Moon. If we have Hydrogen from the solar wind or from dissociation of water and H2SO4, and also Oxygen which is levitated up by electrical forces we might condense produced water into salts in a scoop that might be on a Skyhook method. And of course I would like to capture Helium, Carbon, and Nitrogen as well.

If this could be done from orbit, then it might not be necessary to have cloud cities.

Then heavy materials from our Moon, asteroids, and eventually Mercury might be built into orbital habitats.

But if Cloud Cities are needed or even desired, that might be an option as well.

Done

Hydrated Salts China discovered: https://www.cnn.com/2024/08/05/science/ … index.html
So, this suggests to me that it could be helpful in atmosperic mining by a "Snatch" method: Quote:

Researchers closely inspected samples collected by China’s Chang’e-5 probe, which landed on the lunar surface in 2020, and found a “prismatic, plate-like transparent crystal” – roughly the width of a human hair – that was in fact an “unknown lunar mineral” dubbed ULM-1, according to the study, which published July 16 in the journal Nature Astronomy.
The ULM-1 crystal (with the chemical formula (NH4)MgCl3·6H2O) are made up of roughly 41% water, with bits of ammonia that keep that H2O molecules stable despite wild temperature swings on the moon, according to the study.
This type of water could be a potential “resource for lunar habitation,” the scientists wrote in their study.

Done

Last edited by Void (2024-08-26 10:41:21)

Void · 2024-08-27 10:51:25

I have previously tried to use the terms "Near Mars", and "Far Mars".

What this is supposed to mean is that orbits of Mars may be more accessible from a "Near Earth" than "Far Mars", (The surface of Mars is).

This only holds true for some things, as Mars Direct has a value of its own, as to most quickly find relative refuge on the surface of Mars.

In the case where you can refill in orbit of Mars, Near Mars is easier to travel from to Earth. But of course, Far Mars has a lot of raw materials to make resources from.

And so, for the Moon we could have a Near Moon in an orbit between the Earth and Moon, and then Far Moon on the Moon itself. Near Moon becomes much more attractive if robots can export resources from Far Moon to Near Moon.

Venus is a similar situation.

But in most cases the "Near" option works better with contributions of raw materials and resources from other locations.

But since Space Station technology is likely to be useful in nearly all instances of a "Near" place, then that is of great interest and will be evolving in orbit of Earth, and a little bit perhaps near the Moon.

And of course deflation of labor costs due to robotics should go hand in hand with the "Near" Space Stations.

Done

Last edited by Void (2024-08-27 10:55:53)

Void · 2024-08-29 09:24:24

From: https://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.ph … 46#p226146

Isaac Arthur provided this today: https://www.bing.com/videos/riverview/r … ORM=WRVORC
Quote:
Gardens Of The Moon
YouTube
Isaac Arthur
37 views
2 hours ago
He talks about plants and the 2 week Lunar nights in many places on the Moon. He suggests a minimal red light use in the night to keep the plants alive.
It quickly occurred to me that experiments might be done using chemicals that can grow algae, mushrooms and yeast in the dark. That can certainly be likely to work for those life forms. For vascular garden crops though, it only keeps them alive. But if you have 2 weeks of light and chemicals and then two weeks of dark with chemicals, can some vascular plants grow in a productive way?
While a few spots on the Moon have almost eternal sunlight, minerals will be all over the place, and also the best place to launch Lunar products from would be the Equator.
This article seems assistive: https://newatlas.com/science/artificial … -grow-dark
Quote:
This could expand agriculture to areas that don’t get enough sunlight, and even help feed future space explorers.
He mentions the Nitrogen problem, and suggests that eventually Nitrogen could be obtained from the Outer Solar System.
Bennu apparently has Nitrogen, Carbon, and Hydrogen, organic chemicals. That may be easier to access.
https://news.arizona.edu/news/bennu-hol … -wet-world Quote:
The asteroid's dust is rich in carbon and nitrogen, as well as organic compounds, all of which are essential components for life as we know it.
And so then "Dark Comets" may be of great interest: https://www.space.com/earth-water-dark-comets-impacts
It is my opinion that we should expand into space in many directions at once rather than to focus on one situation which does not have a satisfactory distribution of assets in itself alone.
Going to continue this elsewhere: https://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.ph … 47#p226147
Done

This is the elsewhere mentioned at the end of the quote above.

The process of developing an object like Bennu, could feed resources to at least 4 worlds, Earth, Luna, Mars, Venus.

Valuable minerals to Earth.
Organics to the Moon.
Silicates/metals to Venus.
Whatever is need to Mars orbits.

In the case of delivery to Venus you could use air braking.
For delivery to Mars, you might use Ballistic Capture.
For Earth/Moon, whatever may work. Air braking to Earth for precious metals.

For the Moon, perhaps delivery to an orbital station.

People who work with robots on the Moon could be on Earth, perhaps in a space station near the Moon, perhaps in a base, on the Moon, and very rarely in spacesuits working physically.

So, this should limit the amount of volatile substances needed on the Moon itself.

So, we may very much like to work with Dark Comets, I think.

Done

Last edited by Void (2024-08-29 09:59:16)

Void · 2024-09-01 12:10:47

Things may have cooled down a bit, and I have a little bit to post, and a convenience of time, so, with low pressure I will give it a try.

This is a long video about robotics: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pS8cyJizMos
Quote:

Breaking: Revolutionary 1X Neo Is Built For YOU
Dr. Know-it-all Knows it all
83K subscribers

Productivity to Consumption to Productivity to Consumption..........................

A single case of Consumption>Productivity or Productivity>Consumption, might have a needed ratio.

As far as productivity goes, if it has no market of consumption then it is a waste of effort and resources.

But if you do not have sufficient productivity then you will not have sufficiency for consumption.

If you enter into a environment where consumption is hard to satisfy, then you need a greater productivity.

Space environments probably can have amplified productivity if robots are in use.

----------------

Isaac Arthur: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qIe0cdOvaAU
Quote:

Stellar Nomads
Isaac Arthur
789K subscribers

I like much of what is in the video. The idea of a cycler for the Moon is interesting.

I will leave it at that, I don't want to struggle more than this today.

Ending Pending

Last edited by Void (2024-09-01 12:24:56)

Void · 2024-10-16 08:02:46

At this point I want to adopt some materials in danger of being orphaned.

When we work in specific topics such as for Rubble Pile Asteroids, or a particular larger world, often things show up that have a relationship for other situations. They become just a bit or more off topic.

I have this topic here where they can perhaps settle in as family.

This perhaps is one such: https://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.ph … 15#p227315

Quote:

Perhaps you can tolerate this Calliban.
The Moon is a large stony object and most asteroids we can more easily reach are also stony.
The video has interesting ideas: https://www.bing.com/videos/riverview/r … &FORM=VIRE Quote:
Lunar & Orbital Infrastructure ALL PARTS
YouTube
AnthroFuturism
28.5K views
2 months ago
I myself currently would specify much more in robotics than in humans on the Moon.
Also, I am interested in considering skyhooks with rocket thrusters and pully systems on their ends. I would like to see them used to hook buckets of Oxides of Iron into orbit. They might also be able to drop something as well.
Manufactured Magnetite could be considered or red iron oxides.
In the case of Magnetic Iron manufactured Magnetite, you may be able to swing a powerful magnet to near the surface and somehow squirt dust of Magnetite to the magnet, in hopes of capture. Then the magnet could swing by at a safe distance from the surface.
I know I am deviating from rubble pile asteroids but please be tolerant.
Once we have propellant mass in orbit of the Moon from the Moon, we may have a method to move mass Earth Orbit<>Moon Orbit, and then with similar methods from small world to small world.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magnetite
Fe2+Fe3+2O4
And we may attach other molecules to the magnetite dust.
So if we can have a matter projector that could shoot such dust at a passing magnet on a rotavator, we may bring mass from the Moon to Moon orbit.
The Magnetite processed could yield Iron and Oxygen if no other molecules are attached to the dust.
Both Oxygen and Magnetite dust could be expelled from a mass driver to propel a spacecraft. Oxygen is the one which presents less danger as it will sublimate from ice to gas if you are expelling a cold dust of Oxygen, but dust that is fine might be acceptable in some situations.
But if we extract the Iron from the Magnetite, then we have a propellant that can work for both Magdrive and Neumann Drive.
So, with this we might restore the orbital energy of the skyhook. But it might also be possible to drop materials from the skyhook to elevate the orbit of the skyhook.
I suggest wood, if you could get it. But wood would have to be grown in orbital habitats if a source of organic chemicals existed.
Venus, Earth, and the Outer asteroid belt may be a source for that.
Ending Pending
A little more tolerance, I request.
The skyhook magnet could be a scoop/basket. Iron filings on a magnet make a sort of spongy shock absorber.
So, the magnetite dust tossed up say some small distance might be scooped into a hood with a very strong magnet.
Then on the top of the circle described by the rotavator somehow the magnetite dust would be removed to another structure. I don't have that figured out yet.
Ending Pending
Magnetic Shock absorber which can aquire even more magnetic dust: https://www.dreamstime.com/dust-reactio … e243423069 Image Quote:
Ending Pending

This video from Isaac Arthur is very good about skyhooks. However it is outdated as it does not contemplate Magdrive or Neumann Drive: https://www.bing.com/videos/riverview/r … ORM=VMSOVR Quote:

Skyhooks & Rotovators
YouTube
Isaac Arthur
514.3K views
Mar 23, 2017

https://www.endurosat.com/news/magdrive … e-service/
https://neumannspace.com/neumann-drive/

A competition will exist however between Moon Sourced stony materials and those available elsewhere, such as terrestrial crossing asteroids.

Because of expanding technological abilities, stony asteroid may become items of interest.

Previously asteroid mining focused on getting chemical propellant materials or Platinum family metals and gold.

But with the emergence of electrical drives that can use metal, Carbon, and Silicon from various asteroids, and because of the greater emergence of robot technology, I think that stony materials can be upgraded as for usage.

In addition to Asteroids and the Moon, we also have Phobos and Deimos as possible sources of such materials.

Ending Pending

Last edited by Void (2024-10-16 08:49:21)

Void · 2024-10-16 12:36:30

Would you lay in a field of stones? https://www.bing.com/search?q=would+you … 1&hsmssg=0

Oh my!

Well, stony objects were regarded as trash, but it seems that with a new look at them they are perhaps a chemistry set, or rather several sets of chemistry sets.

I can list just some. Our Moon. Phobos, Deimos. Terrestrial Crossing Asteroids. Vesta. Ceres.

So, we may like it better if organic chemicals are also available in some way. Often, we imagine big machines to overcome the rocket equation. But for smaller worlds, the rocket equation is not such a tyrant.

We may find that we want some gravity though, and our Moon, Vesta, and Ceres may offer that.

As for our Moon, it appears that teleoperating robots from the Earth and also AI in place on the Moon could facilitate large construction projects.

So, what might happen if we have a set of factories on the Moon, that can manufacture large spaceships to launch?

We may think that LOX and Aluminum Dust could propel them chemically.

This then could be an alternative to Mass Drivers or Skyhooks, and probably is closer to tech that we already use.

So, we would have to consume considerable amounts of produced LOX and Aluminum, but could make the ships of things like Iron and Steel of some sort. We may need to import Carbon.

The ships would only need to attain a low orbit as then Magdrive or Neumann drive could then begin to consume the metals of the ship to propel a remainder to a location of choice.

In some ways, to me this indicates a good path. While the other mega machines are rather outside of our experiences.

All we need is mass gain to orbit of sufficient value, to allow interplanetary travel, to various other locations using metals as propellants.

Then having attained those other places we can procure even more metals in a similar way if we like.

Phobos and Deimos are troublesome as having very low gravity.

Vesta is volcanic and cold, but there is reason to believe that it has ice in it, and it also has a partial covering of Carbonaceous materials.

Ceres of course it thought to have a full chemistry set, and some gravity, and so could also be of interest.

Venus may have the organic chemistry available from it's atmosphere, and we may get stony materials from asteroids that cross it's path.

Mercury, is expected to have everything for chemicals, with perhaps only a little Nitrogen however.

So, why don't we think to love our stony future?

Ending Pending

Last edited by Void (2024-10-16 12:52:26)

Void · 2024-10-17 07:28:26

So, the "Shellship" game may be a way forward, starting with Starship from Earth.

At this time Starship as a infant, has a hard time even getting its own mass back down to the surface of the Earth delivered as retaining value.

Although the more important function of Starship will be "Upmass", over time, the hope is that it can develop a capacity for "Downmass".

The ability of some Starships to bring "Downmass" to the surface of Earth will greatly expand the value of a Starship "Shellship" industry.

SpaceX or other entities could already do "Shellships". That would be a rocket to LEO, where the total mass or greater mass may be kept in orbit for repurposing.

However it could be that you would want to bring some parts of a "Shellship" down to the Earth's surface for reuse as to the original purpose of them. Such as perhaps Raptor Engines.

Pause................

We currently may think that this would involve the movement of Stainless Steel to orbit.

In the early days of the concept of Starship Elon Musk said that it could be close to possible to get a Starship Single Stage To Orbit. But it could not bring cargo, could not have landing legs, and could not have a heat shield. It would also not have flaps or the motors for the flaps.

But this could be wonderful, as you then do not have to recover a Superheavy, and your launch facilities would experience far less stress than for a full stack of Superheavy and Starship.

A full orbit would probably be preferred, but even the sub orbit that Starship has currently achieved, could allow a tug of some sort to either latch onto it and tow it up, or refill it, just a little bit so that it could achieve a full orbit.

Such a Starship would likely not have any life support mass, and it might be allowed to go dead as soon as it it secured to a tug to escort it to a processing center.

At the process center it would be divided into parts, engines perhaps going back to be reused in new ships, and perhaps some sections to add structure to space stations. Some would be processed into propellant.

Mass Drivers could eject the metal, but that is not preferred, especially near Earth. The Magdrive and Neumann Drives being immature, need intentional research to mature into major systems. These presumably could then be electrically powered by whatever means is best at the time.

So, then you have a stream of mass to LEO, that is primarily of Stainless Steel.

The advantage of this over getting materials from the Moon or Asteroids, is that you have massive infrastructure and a massive labor pool on the surface of the Earth.

But with the expansion of robotics, then a expanded labor pool is very possible on the Earth, and I think also on the Moon.

So, then we can look to a "Shellship" method for the Moon. This would perhaps involve LOX and Aluminum powder as the chemical propellant that could push "Shellships" to Lunar Orbits.

I would expect that giant robot factories on the surface of the Moon and under the surface would manufacture these "Shellships" and the LOX and Aluminum dust for propellants.

Other future possibilities might be such facilities on top of the Shield Volcano's of Mars, where perhaps the propellants would be CO and LOX.

And then we can get to major Asteroids and do similar.

All of these are for worlds with some gravity, which can be assistive in processes that may to some extent resemble what Earth has to offer.

But then again we should not turn down what small asteroids may have to offer.

With a "Shellship" concept, then we may reach to get the things that are not local, such as Nitrogen, Water, CO2, and so on.

Then we stick closer to the technology types that we already have familiarity with, and avoid exotic methods.

Exotic methods may emerge, but we do not have to count on that to get around in the solar system.

Ending Pending

Last edited by Void (2024-10-17 08:22:56)

Void · 2024-10-18 08:53:23

I want to clone a post from Calliban in another topic elsewhere: https://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.ph … 52#p227352 Quote:

[Calliban
Member
From: Northern England, UK
Registered: 2019-08-18
Posts: 3,763
Email
It has been a while since we talked about food production. This company is using acetate to grow plants in the dark using vertical farming.
https://medium.com/@SquareRootsIndoorFa … c5a8a5765c
Ultimately, this is how most food will need to be produced on Mars. We will still use greenhouses and natural photosynthesis to grow high value plants like herbs, spices and medicine. But pressure domes are too expensive for staples. Most food will be grown in compact underground spaces.
Last edited by Calliban (Today 08:08:36)
"Plan and prepare for every possibility, and you will never act. It is nobler to have courage as we stumble into half the things we fear than to analyse every possible obstacle and begin nothing. Great things are achieved by embracing great dangers."

I see the hand of another "Musk". Makers, not fakers, not takers. Gotta love them.

That is a very good one Calliban but since you started it, I want to add something else which can fit here but might be off topic in your topic of choice, "Vertical Farming".

I will be very interested in Macro-Algae eventually being developed for the dark or the dim aquatic environments.
Some cultures treat Macro-Algae as a vegetable, and that is good. If possible, I think it will be good to gradually wean the willing parts of the human race towards less and less macro-animal foods, even fish. I am not a vegan, or vegetarian at all, but it seems to me that we are moving in a direction where a good and desirable diet can eventually be developed which would use less killed animal flesh, and still have food that they enjoy.

It is obvious that for Earth there is enormous 3D volume in the Oceans and seas for such farming. And if that is encouraged, then for Mars we also can have Seas that can be created. And then so many moon worlds that also could do this.

This video has a lot of good things in it. It takes a bit to get to them though: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QINoI_9J_3A Quote:

Space Farmers - Food's New Frontiers
SpaceRip

Isaac Arthur also has something good he just produced: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4AnJSb2ED60
Quote:

Ocean Habitats: Artificial Islands, Raft Cities, Submarine Structures, and more…
Isaac Arthur

I will make note that bodies of water may have sufficient Oxygen in them to tolerate a winter episode. So, for Mars, a dust storm may be a thing that can be survived in a similar fashion. And if you have the chemicals to feed Macro-Algae, then you can perhaps have fresh vegetables.

I am not sure about the concept of "Dark Oxygen", but if it is real then this might be possible to produce artificially.

Anyway obviously if Macro-Algae farms were developed on Earth in the Continental Shelfs of the Earth, then this could be transferred to outer space.

Breakfast desired.

Ending Pending

Last edited by Void (2024-10-18 09:13:15)

Void · 2024-10-18 13:20:06

A notion for Titan that had not occurred to me, showed up in my mind today. Geothermal for Titan.

It turns out others have thought about it.

So, I think that both geothermal and Geo battery could apply.

I think that this makes Titan even more a place where humans might set up settlements.

Nothing particularly special about this:

But if the dunes are actually comet dust as some think, then such pools could be lined with soil.

The water inside the enclosure could be tropical on the top and arctic on the bottom.

As for Geo Battery, then the heat that leaks into the underground is "Stored".

But you could drill deeper and perhaps strike liquid Methane or Water. There as chances.

Anyway this suggests that such a settlement of Titan would be rather stable as per life support.

Ending Pending

Last edited by Void (2024-10-18 13:50:20)

Void · 2024-10-19 07:29:48

I am much more sure that it will make sense to inhabit large part of the solar system. On a guess a distribution of resources are to be available by doing this.

If Iron and Oxygen become the two primary propellants for interplanetary travel, and "Shellship" methods specialized to a world, then farming where the resources are available may yield organic materials that could be freeze-dried and brought to places like Earth/Moon, Phobos & Deimos, and perhaps terrestrial crossing asteroids.

The "Shellship" method for Earth would probably be based on "Naked" Stainless Steel ships like "Starship".

For the Moon, "Shellships" could be based on LOX & Aluminum dust, perhaps with a pinch of organic matter or water ice.
These ships might be made of relatively simple Steel types. Perhaps, if possible, also bringing Magnetite up to orbit.

So, as a certainty, mass farming might be possible for Ceres, as all the needed ingredients are thought to be available there. Ceres however could also provide Oxygen and Iron as propellants.

It would be amusing to make habitats with windows to grow plants in, but then perhaps what is more sensible is to grow Yeast with Acetate and Oxygen.

This would only require tanks of water kept at a suitable temperature, and chemicals. Hydrogen & CO2 could be an alternative to Acetate and Oxygen.

So, exports for Ceres or some other world, could be freeze dried yeast in bulk, Iron, or Magnetite, and perhaps Ammonia. These things brought to the Earth/Moon orbits and also other places needing them may be very useful.

To launch the products, you might have a microwave beam powered Oxygen Mass Driver to give a fast acceleration to the shipped product. This could be a 1st stage that would then return to the orbits of Ceres. This boost would then allow the shipment to get closer to the sun. Then the 2nd stage powered by Magdrive and/or Neumann Drive may use Iron as a propellant, to get the shipments to the Earth/Moon orbits, or other locations like Mars Orbits, or Venus Orbits.

Solien Protein:
https://time.com/collection/best-invent … 0footprint.
Quote:

November 19, 2020 8:56 AM EST
Feeding the world’s growing population puts a major strain on our planet, accounting for 70% of water use and 24% of greenhouse gas emissions. Finland’s Solar Foods says it has found a way to make food far more sustainable. Its “Solein” protein is produced by feeding microbes submerged in liquid with small bubbles of hydrogen and carbon dioxide that are extracted from air using renewable energy. The fermented mixture is then dried to produce a neutral-tasting protein powder that can be flavoured and added to meals to provide nutrition with a tiny carbon footprint. —Ciara Nugent
Contact us at letters@time.com.

Solien is also discussed in this video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QINoI_9J_3A

So when the Yeast were brought to the Earth/Moon, it could be processed in many ways.

It, or the Carbon from it could be moved down to the Moon, with a hard landing method.

A Hard Landing method could involve a sky crane ship that might drop it from a height or place a container of it onto the surface of the Moon.

With robots, it may not matter if a delivery takes 10 years. However, as I currently visualize it, I anticipate a 1st and 2nd stage delivery method, which I already mentioned.

The power systems on Ceres might project microwave energy to the Oxygen Mass Driver of the 1st Stage which along with the 2nd stage would be in orbit of Ceres. The 1st stage would give the 2nd stage a kick inwards towards the sun, and then the 2nd stage would return to orbit of Ceres.

Then the 2nd stage would bring the cargo's in, using Magdrive and/or Neumann Drive. The 2nd stage itself and it's power systems would also be a delivered cargo.

So, then Ceres has to manufacture the 2nd stage as an export and also the contents of it as well.

Again the major part of labor would be robotic at Ceres.

I have said that we may not care if it takes 10 years, but with an Oxygen Mass Driver kick, it might be much quicker than that.

Alternate places to grow Solien could be around Mars, if Phobos and Deimos have Carbon and nutrients, and Mars had Hydrogen to lift to orbit.

Possibly Venus, or maybe Dark Comets, if they exist and have the things need to obtain for such a method of farming.

Ending Pending

Proteins: https://vivo.colostate.edu/hbooks/pathp … %20a%20few.

Image Quote:

So, if Solien is containing things like this then we ship Hydrogens, Nitrogen's, Carbons, Oxygen and some other things.
Freeze Dried, and put into an appropriate container and kept cold, may allow the shipment of these chemicals and whatever else is included.

You could feed this to fish, along with Oxygen to begin rendering the substances into water, meat, Ammonia, Urea, and feces. Feces could yield Carbon, and also with pyrolysis, some types of hydrocarbons.

Ending Pending

If we could export Magnetite from the Moon to orbit then we might do a two stage launch method such as I suggested for Ceres.

The 1st stage would be powered by a Oxygen Mass Driver, powered I hope from a rectenna where very large amounts of power could be beamed to it from power stations in orbit. (I hope that can be done).

Then the 2nd Stage could take over using Magdrive and/or Neumann Drive to finish the path to the objective.
These might use Iron as propellant.

The Magnetite would be processed to produce the Oxygen and Iron.

So, it would be very nice if we could use a skyhook and magnet method to catch magnetite launched at it from the surface of the Moon.

But I don't know if that method can work.

Ending Pending

Last edited by Void (2024-10-19 08:31:07)

Void · 2024-10-19 10:00:47

I have had my travel plans modified. So, I think I will take this time to post about some machine concepts.

I have mentioned "Oxygen Mass Driver". On the surface this might indicate the use of LC circuits. That is Magnetic Inductors and Capacitors. Oxygen is not magnetic in the gas phase. It is magnetic in the liquid phase, and I think that it is magnetic in the solid, or ice phase.

I tried to had off a different type a long time ago, never got a proper reply. I want to suggest it now, and would really like to get feedback on if it seems it could work or what it is that I do not understand.

OK, so we have a DC Electromagnet, probably from a superconductive system.
We drop a magnetic load into it at the blue color.
Near the center of the solenoid, we do something to make the load non-magnetic.
In the case of Liquid or solid Oxygen we might do a combustion chamber, and in the case of Oxygen make it a gas of Oxygen and water vapor, if our fuel is Hydrogen, and these then are not magnetic, and so the speed of the fall is not taken away from the mass as it moves up in the magnetic field.

However, in the "Blue" phase of the load, it acts like a secondary on a transformer and takes energy from the magnetic field, and turns it into a linear motion for the load materials which are mostly Oxygen.

So, you have to replenish the Primary of the Transformer, the magnetic field.

Does anyone think this can work. If not, what do I not understand?

Thanks.

Ending Pending

Last edited by Void (2024-10-19 10:17:20)

Void · 2024-10-19 12:39:27

So, now I want to revisit Matter Projectors and Matter Accumulators.

Technically, a rocket is a Matter Projector. So, the "Shellship" ideas that I have previously suggested are a method of Matter Projection, moving mass from one point to another, and in that case overcoming a gravity well.

A Mass Driver that sends Matter is also a Matter Projector.

In the 70's as I recall it there was a concept to project bags of regolith to a L5 or L4 location and to accumulate that into a Centrifugal Accumulator. By the time the bags got that far up the Moons gravity well, they would have slowed to a speed where this was thought to be possible.

From post #7 Here is a magnetic shock absorption device which may be assistive to a Matter Accumulator:

Magnetic Shock absorber which can aquire even more magnetic dust: https://www.dreamstime.com/dust-reactio … e243423069 Image Quote:

As I was thinking ahead on things I will add to this post, I remembered Vacuum Welding. It may present some interesting opportunities and perhaps some problems for the above implementation.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cold_welding
Quote:

Cold welding or contact welding is a solid-state welding process in which joining takes place without fusion or heating at the interface of the two parts to be welded. Unlike in fusion welding, no liquid or molten phase is present in the joint.
Cold welding was first recognized as a general materials phenomenon in the 1940s. It was then discovered that two clean, flat surfaces of similar metal would strongly adhere if brought into contact while in a vacuum (see Van der Waals force). Micro[1] and nano-scale cold welding[2] has shown potential in nanofabrication processes.

Pause...................

So, the magnetic sponge structure may be vacuum welding itself into a spongy solid, but if you are adding materials to it the added materials may break that structure or may become enveloped in the existing structure. Wedged in sort of.

Magnetic material doing an impact may heat up above their Curie Point, and could bounce away. So, too much impact speed could be bad. But also a little heating might help the welding process.

So, I am interested in both Magdrive and Neumann Drive as Matter Projectors.

A very large magnetic field from a superconductor magnet would be the target, but that would be in a sort of scoop shape perhaps.

If we would hang a scoop from a skyhook, and have a very powerful magnet, then we could try to catch the outputs of a Magdrive or Neumann Drive, presuming that the metal being sent will react in a way desired to the Matter Accumulator I am suggesting.

One problem is that the matter projection could damage the tether of the skyhook.

I would like a sort of Mass Driver as well that could project Magnetite Dust to this Matter Accumulator. If that can be done, then other substances than just Iron and Oxygen can be attached to the Magnetite grains, and so come along for the ride.

In this game, I think that the projection from the Magdrive and the Neumann Drive might be made "Sticky" by the proper energy of impact, and the proper temperature of the Matter Accumulator. But excess energy may cause erosion of the Accumulation and the Matter Accumulator.

Pause...................

I have read that the Moon has some stable orbits and some unstable orbits. So objects placed in those unstable orbits may eventually impact the Moon if they are not given further modifications of inertia. That could be a good thing, so as to avoid a Kessler Syndrome around the Moon.

It is likely that the Matter Accumulators will need to have energy modifications of their inertia very often to avoid a crash. This would likely include lifting the orbit as a whole, and also circularizing it against a tendency for it to become Ellipsoid.

It is possible that Magdrive and/or Neumann Drive could be used to maintain orbit of the Matter Accumulators. Probably solar energy used but I suppose Nuclear might be considered.

So, we want to accumulate this matter from the Moon to orbits to make structure and to procure propellants for the Matter Projectors in orbit and associated with the Matter Accumulators.

I think I will rest.

Ending Pending

Last edited by Void (2024-10-19 13:18:23)

Void · 2024-10-20 09:27:54

I want to clone a post here: https://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.ph … 91#p227391

A package arrived in my mind this morning as I was waking up.
Referring bac to post #174:
Resorting again back to a previous post #162: https://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.ph … 63#p227063
Quote:
I think that this is rather good, it goes far beyond any understanding I previously had and also has a lot of things that I would still need to absorb: https://www.bing.com/videos/riverview/r … tMy%20book:
Quote:
I am playing the video now as it contains some specs I want. A temperature and vacuum level, where Iron, Nickle, and Oxygen will sublimate out of heated Lunar Regolith.
I was thinking about an Optimus Robot(s) on the Moon. Of course robots would be modified to environments. The primary environments would be having various levels of "Dirty/Clean".
Outside without paving brick pathways would be the dirtiest.
I would think that we would want clean volumes built where robots could work to make higher level products.
A tiny amount of beneficiation of magnetic iron 0.5% of the regolith mass. That is not to be held in contempt.
But we are going to want some of the Iron from Mineralized Iron.
Electrolysis is mentioned as a possibility. It takes a lot of energy. The regolith can be preheated using solar energy, prior to electrolysis.
I am looking at making Iron Clad Bricks, and using powdered iron as mortar to join them where Vacuum Welding and inductive heating can create a structure of bricks, such as a Quonset hut(s).
Also Thermite reactions could be used to join the Iron Mortar.
I make it sound easy, I am sure the recipes to achieve this are going to need discovery.
Bricks having join methods like Lego's.
This could be good in Microgravity as well, working with Phobos, Deimos, and asteroids.
If you have a magnetic field, then you could Shepard the materials to stick around, if they get dislodged or are lost to the void.
Iron clad bricks would be useless on Earth, and probably Mars, as for the problems of Oxidation.
A Iron Clad Bricks Quonset Hut would have an electrical grounding plain on the inside an outside of the structure.
Probably once built you would want thermal stability for the structure. So, then insulation on the outside.
I think 1100 degrees C (For Iron), is mentioned as how to use sublimation to extract some Iron, Nickle, and Oxygen.
We might look at about 26.00 in the play time of the video.
See about 29.50 in the video play time. Vacuum Pyrolysis.
So, the Iron needs to condense at about 500 degrees C.
To capture the Oxygen he requested notions. I think possibly Hydrogen or Carbon could bond with the Oxygen, to produce water or CO2. Those then can be condensed at reasonable cold temperatures. Then these could be split with electrolysis, or using some sort of Plasma splitting process.
The Quonset huts could be insulated by piling regolith on top of them. I do not think the robots will need extremely strong radiation protection. I would say that periodically thick regolith could be piled on so that during a solar storm the robots or humans could seek shelter there.
As for the brains of the Robots, I think they might be put into carts with some good radiation shielding. The robot and the cart might be associated, by proximity. A cart on wheels, and then bipedal or other robots.
I think that the ratio or robots to humans on the Moon could be 1/10,000, with only small numbers of humans.
There are other metal processes, but I do think that perhaps a Metal mortar may work on the Moon, as you may employ vacuum welding, inductive heating and other processes. Aluminum would be harder, but might not be as subject to Oxidation if you were going to pressurize the interior.
Usually though I do not see the interior of these buildings being pressurized.
Any other thoughts? Of course this is not a completed plan. Much more will be wanted.
Ending Pending

I am thinking of how to adapt the above for the Moon to the situation of near Microgravity for Phobos, Deimos, and many Asteroids.

I like the idea of magnetic Mortar, as a magnetic field may help to Shepard the fragments that may result from a material shedding incident such as an impactor or mistake.

I am perhaps being mistaken that a brick could have an Iron Foil Wrapper, and use Iron Vacuum Welded Mortar, but maybe something like that can be possible.

For insulation of such structures Steel Wool might be suitable on the outside, because as I have said, perhaps we will maintain a local magnetic field, to collect shed materials.

Ending Pending

Last edited by Void (2024-10-20 09:33:11)

Void · 2024-10-29 08:51:04

I just want to store this, as it showed up: https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/technolo … 29f6&ei=13
Quote:

New metal-eating ‘bullet’ thrusters could power spacecraft for near-infinite range
Story by Christopher McFadden • 3w • 3 min read

I am hoping that their device is all of that!

I am hoping that various worlds, including Earth, Luna, Phobos, Deimos, and so on can be sources of metals for propellants for this.

Ending Pending

Last edited by Void (2024-10-29 08:53:26)

Void · 2024-11-04 13:23:20

OK, migrating from: https://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.ph … 83#p227683
"Index» Terraformation» The Moon"

After my last posts there, I realized that the keys to the solar system may be in this!

Back to this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_e … _asteroids
Quote:

List of exceptional asteroids

Any of the B, C, F, G sort of major asteroid are of interest, and so is Jupiter's moon Callisto.

Just now I am most interested in 10 Hygea: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/10_Hygiea

If we were to create "Build" facilities on these worlds, we could use a combination of Alice and Magdrive/Neumann Drive, to move vast amounts of organic chemicals inward in the solar system. Destinations could be Planet Orbits, Our Moon, and Terrestrial Crossing Asteroids.

Alice Rocket: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ALICE_%28propellant%29
(This formulation could perhaps have other additives, but water ice and Aluminum Powder would be the main factors, I think).

When at these Icy worlds, solar power should not be a problem as concentrating mirrors should work. But if Nuclear is available, then that is fine also.

So, for a collection to be sent inward towards the sun, you would want large biologically active water tanks, and big tanks of Aluminum. Also you would want reuseable rocket casings for the Alice propulsion process.

It would be nice to move organics and water to the Earth/Moon orbits, with these but also they could travel to other terrestrials and also Terrestrial Crossing Asteroids. Then arriving at them with organics and water, they could process these objects.

As might be desired, these may then migrate using Magdrive or Neumann Drive, to other worlds.

I don't think that the asteroids will run out of Organics, Aluminum and Water anytime soon , but then if needed there are all the icy moons, including Callisto as a first stop, perhaps.

So, then Mars/Phobos/Deimos become important to step towards such a future.

Ending Pending

Last edited by Void (2024-11-04 13:43:10)

Void · 2024-11-04 15:20:20

So, my conclusion is that we could have thriving space communities at each major asteroid, most of which are icy but with diverse chemistry. But even Vesta which appears to be dominant volcanic, shows signs of ice under the surface in places, and also has significant amounts of carbonaceous materials deposited over much of it's surface.

In these small gravity wells large mirrors will not be hard to work with, and then also even more easy to work with in microgravity around these worlds.

A collection of synthetic gravity worlds could very likely build lots of platforms with tanks of ice, water, Aluminum, Solein in them those then under various propulsion methods could intercept asteroids in elliptical sun orbits, and convert those into worlds for humans and robots.

I still think the Earth's Moon can have value but this other option, looks really good.

Ending Pending

Last edited by Void (2024-11-04 15:22:51)

Void · 2024-11-04 18:12:28

I have seen a post by Calliban, and some prior posts from (th): https://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.ph … 86#p227686

I don't want to intrude everywhere, so I will sort of respond here.

I think this combination of thrust methods could provide some very interesting services in space flight.

1) Hard Kick, (Chemical Thrust, either liquid or solids. Just now I favor Alice).
2) Magdrive (Medium Kick? It is said that it can use Aluminum, Iron, and Copper)
3) Neumann Drive (Soft Kick. But maybe the most efficient. It can do almost any element in the periodic table, including Carbon and Silicon).

https://neumannspace.com/

Of course, Magdrive and Neumann Drive are just babies at this point. But they look like they could become something.

Some of the reason I am excited about the combination of 1, 2, and 3 are to begin with, at a source of ice and metals and perhaps organic chemicals, you could build giant caravans.

You might start by filling large metal containers with water ice, (Or some other choice). You might fill them by freezing water vapor directly into ice inside of them. I think this might avoid the expansion problem of freezing liquid water.

Then you also build metal containers filled with nano powder Aluminum. You assemble the two propellants with sufficient distance between them so that you will not get a giant explosion. Then you may make and refill Alice Rockets. Both the ice containers and the Aluminum containers will serve as very good radiation shielding.

This is a very stable energy storage system that you could use for thrusting with a hard kick over a short time.

Should you have a source of electrical energy, then you have two other propulsion methods. You might kick Aluminum Dust out of a Mass Driver, by using inductive reaction on the Aluminum powder (I think). You may also kick Oxygen out of a mass driver, you would get the Oxygen from melted water ice.

But you may also use electrolysis to get Hydrogen and Oxygen to burn if you have the machinery for that.

In my current notions, I anticipate using these to do a series of hard kicks to send a caravan-barge towards a planet for a gravitational assist. And this is intended to push the caravan-barge into greater sunlight. You might already have mirrors, or you could construct mirrors out of empty ice and Aluminum tanks.

You may utilize the mirrors to run a heat engine to generate electricity. The fluid could be water, or not. You could have solar panels as well, but I think most members here prefer heat engines.

As you get deeper and deeper into the sunlight nearer the sun, you may trim the mirrors if you want to, using the metals as propellants in either Magdrive or Neumann Drive.

Or if you have more empty tanks or extra Aluminum, you may use that in Magdrive or Neumann Drive.

Using objects like 10 Hygea or Ceres as the source materials you could construct lots of these caravan-barges.

At about 3 AU where most of these major partly icy worlds exist, you have about 15% sunlight as would be for Earth. Mirrors would work just fine to give you all the energy you want to process and build. And you could have very substantial communities of humans and robots at these locations.

The Finns (Finlanders), figured this out some time ago, I suspect, at least parts of it.

This thing again: https://www.sciencealert.com/could-huma … anet-ceres Image Quote:

Mars/Phobos/Deimos are in between those proposed bases and the Earth/Moon.

These caravan-barges could go to Mars, or fly by Mars for a gravity assist. Then they could each go to an asteroid that crosses the Terrestrial Planets, and have the resources to process them.

Then those could send materials to air-brake into the atmosphere of Venus.

I think it is a pretty good set of potential options.

And it is not wrong to think that Nuclear Fission or Fusion could be involved. Although I would prefer a fusion reactor, it would not be wrong to propel huge masses inside our solar system using nuclear bombs.

Orion does not have to only go interstellar: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Project_O … ropulsion)

I think that Orion might work very well if you had a big water tank between the bomb and the ship.

Of course, that kind of nuclear is going to require international consent.

Ending Pending

I think this would kick you hard!

So, really the only innovation I have added is the Aerated Water Tank, as both propellant and shock absorber. Of course the nuke is the energy supply.

So, prior to ignition you would stir a lot of gas bubbles into the water, which you may be able to do, if it is microgravity.

And this, I think would get us places in the outer solar system and the inner solar system. So, the outer asteroid belt might be the junction points.

I really think this is kick ass!

Ending Pending

I think that sort of system could get you to the Dwarf Planets beyond Neptune, maybe even further. After all most small worlds beyond the asteroid belt are icy, and will have both water and more and Deuterium. So, Wet Orion with Hydrogen Bombs. I think that is plenty of kick-ass.

Ending Pending

In order for a human to hope to survive such a launch, perhaps they could be suspended in another tank of aerated water. It would have to have enough depth to cushion the entire acceleration event. The human might be in a capsule with lots of padding.

Ending Pending

Last edited by Void (2024-11-04 19:20:40)

Calliban · 2024-11-05 02:44:00

The Neumann Drive has been tested in space according to their website. I think the most attractive attribute of this drive is its simplicity. It is an electric arc between two electrodes, vaporising the electrode with the highest current density, i.e. the anode. That makes it easy to design and model. Cathode deterioration will be a problem, but a predictable one that can be mitigated by design. I don't have any data on performance or energy efficiency. Those are non-trivial concerns. But the simplicity and abundance of propellant are selling points.

The original Orion developed by Ted Taylor used small fission based charges, which focused explosions using polyethylene lenses.

Void · 2024-11-05 04:41:22

Thanks Calliban. I agree that the Neumann Drive by itself makes a person hopeful.

Here is an old claim about the performance of the device: https://newatlas.com/neumann-ion-drive- … ine/39490/ Quote:

Physics
Researcher's experimental ion drive outperforms NASA's HiPEP engine
By David Szondy
September 25, 2015

But I would apply some caution as I am very familiar with specsmanship, and of course some part of this could be sensational newsblab.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/High_Powe … Propulsion
Quote:

High Power Electric Propulsion (HiPEP) is a variation of ion thruster for use in nuclear electric propulsion applications.[1][2][3] It was ground-tested in 2003 by NASA and was intended for use on the Jupiter Icy Moons Orbiter, which was canceled in 2005.

This is suggestive to me but again, I don't feel I have a high level of awareness of what all this indicates for value of Neumann Drive.

Calliban Said:

The original Orion developed by Ted Taylor used small fission based charges, which focused explosions using polyethylene lenses.

Of course I am vastly "Out of my League", but what I have in mind is a tank filled with a spongy mix of a gas phase and water. It could have a foaming agent inside of the liquid.

And the shape of the tank could possibly have some lensing properties, but Deuterium would involve Neutrons, unless you added Helium 3 to suppress some of that.

I am sort of thinking that the action could create a massively expanding magnetic bubble of plasma, and that a spacecraft might be coupled to that magnetic expansion.

We know that the Icy outer solar system objects will likely have deuterium, Mars included.

But four outer planets, Jupiter, Saturn, Uranus, Neptune will have lots of Helium 3 if you could mine it somehow.

I don't look down on Fission Rockets of any sort, or presumably eventually Fusion Rockets of some kind. But a magnetic explosion involving a foamy tank of fluid being converted into plasma, that seems like you could kick some heavy loads to distant places.

Ending Pending

Last edited by Void (2024-11-05 04:54:06)

Void · 2024-11-06 20:50:12

For the moment stepping back away from the Fusion Orion idea, and to lesser tricks, I can see a parallel between the Earth's climate and that of the Solar System.

Reportedly the solar system is warming up as the sun warms up. Much or all of the main asteroid belt used to be behind the snow line. Now it is a bit of a notion that the snow line almost reaches to Jupiter and it's moons.

But in the asteroid belt still, many objects are considered Carbonaceous, and many in the outer belt may have significant ice in the crust and below. Ceres would be an example and perhaps 10 Hygea.

To tap such resources is a bit like tapping a aquifer in the desert, which is not expected to recharge from rain.

At the orbit of Ceres, the sunlight is said to be ~15% that of Earth. But with low gravity and microgravity situations, large mirror devices could go a long way to provide endless and massive energy sources in such situations. Some of the other larger objects may be just a little further out, so it should work for them as well.

At this time as well, the quantity of labor may drive towards infinity, (But never get there).

At the 3.0 AU distance from the sun, I think that possibly it is unwise to try to drive a spaceship freighter with direct solar energy. As I think Dr. Zubrin has suggested some other stored energy might be used. So, you would use Solar at 3.0 AU along with robots to cook up a secondary energy such as chemical energy, and then launch your freighters with that.

That "Kick" can get these freighters into the more inner solar system where solar energy may be a useful direct method of additional propulsion. In some cases, gravitational flyby of worlds might also be used.

So, after this gets booted up, and some materials are delivered to the Earth/Moon, and maybe Mars/Phobos/Deimos, then it might be sensible to put an eye on the mostly stony terrestrial crossing asteroids. To bring materials from the 3.0 AU worlds to these generally small worlds that are in elliptical orbits. For the main objects themselves, then it could make sense to make them into City/Castles, and to make sure that they are not going to collide with any important worlds.

But also from the City/Castle making you could have offshoot devices which could serve as cycling spaceships. And lots of them.

Pause.......

So, then these small worlds, the Earth/Moon, and Mars/Phobos/Deimos could be "Irrigated" with this fossil water, using send propulsion methods and arrive propulsion methods.

Send Propulsion would be using a chemical kick to push a payload to a world.
Arrive Propulsion would be the fine tuning, perhaps using solar power and Magdrive and Neumann Drive.

But I think there may be a Collisional Arrive Method that could be used for our Moon. If we do a lot of industry on the Moon, and produce a lot of waste gasses such as Oxygen then perhaps a thin atmosphere for the Moon would allow the aerobraking of a fine organic powder to the Moon. It would burn up on atmospheric entry, or if it hit the ground, but then the chemicals of it would be added to the Moons atmosphere. That organic powder could be Solein: https://www.solein.com/

I would expect much of the resulting water and CO2 to accumulate into the shadowed craters. And maybe some Nitrogen as some sort of compound. Some of the Nitrogen would be mixed into the Moons atmosphere, and might be extractable.

It might pay to give the Moon an artificial magnetic shield, to reduce losses to the solar wind.

But you might send a freighter to fly-by the Moon and it would squirt a powder of Solein to impact the Lunar atmosphere.

As for Venus, if we have City/Castles being made out of imported organics, and stony asteroids, then those could by some means enter orbit of Venus, and as a group mine the atmosphere of Venus for organic chemicals, and to fill space habitats with Nitrogen and Oxygen from Venus.

Later, it may be possible to send "Metal" out into the outer solar system, as Photon Sails. It may be that often metals are available from a world like Titan or Phoebe, but this would allow the sending of additional metals.

In the case of Titan, the sails would simply plunge into the atmosphere and the metals would settle onto the ground for retrieval.

Eventually Mercury could be involved in sending these metals.

And the tapping of ices beyond the asteroid belt to bring inward as a form of "Irrigation" could be implemented.

With the advent of Fusion power, probably eventually the reach of humans could be into the Oort Cloud. Maybe beyond.

Ending Pending

Last edited by Void (2024-11-06 21:34:58)

Void · Yesterday 13:52:40

Major Asteroids again: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_e … _asteroids
The major asteroids that are believed to be icy/Carbonaceous and are of significant size are quite a few.
A relatively small one is: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/128_Nemesis
It would have to be tested to find out if it has the spectrum of volatiles, including Nitrogen.

But it is just a bit nearer to the sun and is not seeming to be too far off from the solar Elliptic.
It would probably have more sunshine than the average of the type, and a small gravity relative to Ceres. I don't know what an ideal gravity might be. I would be wondering if the rock is soft enough to burrow into.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/C-type_asteroid
So, maybe yes, Quote:

Due to their volatile-rich (icy) composition, C-type asteroids have relatively low density. A survey of 20 C-type asteroids found an average density of 1.7 g/cm3.[4]

So, if that were true, and it is not all rubble, then it might be possible to hollow out cavities in it. And at the same time produce useful materials, some for structure and some for export.

I have tended to shy away from Mass Drivers and Space Elevators lately for the Outer Asteroid Belt, as I think that solid rocket motors starting with an ALICE type and perhaps diverging in the direction of Space Shuttle type could be possible to build out of the materials of these asteroids. However, in this case, it might be interesting if uses of them could occur for this asteroid if it has the spectrum of materials desired.

But the simplicity of tanks of water ice and Aluminum powder to fill ALICE solid rocket motors is very appealing.

An interesting question comes up though: Is it possible that it could be easier to import materials from Earth to the Moon? This could be true if launch costs were to go down to some ridiculous value like $10.00 per pound or kg. But of course that is only to lift the materials to LEO, even if the price could eventually be that low. You then have to at least get the materials into the proximity of the Moon also.

The Earth might do, for small amounts, but if it were actually desired to go bigtime with imports of Volatiles, the Asteroid Belt looks good.

But there is a further logic question. Is it as productive to move volatiles to the Moon as it would be to intercept generally stony terrestrial crossing asteroids?

Working with the terrestrial crossers gives some increased ability to prevent an asteroid impact of an important world, such as Earth. So, then you are buying an insurance policy, provided that Doctor Evil does not get control. If it was that easy for Doctor Evil, then we would already be dead however. Human social controls seem to be enough so far.

I suppose the proper answer is to try it all and the markets will tend to sort out what makes the most sense.

As for impacting volatile rich dust with the Moon or an atmosphere of the Moon, that atmosphere could be very thin, just enough to prevent micrometeorites from reaching the surface. And then if a magnetic field for the Moon were worthwhile, it could be made leaky on the sunward side to perhaps combine solar wind with the thin atmosphere, perhaps capturing Protons into Oxygen to make water, and maybe capturing Helium also. Helium may be of value.

A similar thing might be done for Venus.

We could have Main Belt Asteroid>Terrestrial Crossing Asteroid>Venus.

So, you would bring a bunch of water, Carbon, and Nitrogen to a stony terrestrial crossing asteroid, and then make machinery to gain the orbit of Venus.

With a magnetic field for Venus that is leaky, and the atmosphere of Venus you might be able to capture the solar wind.
Also by clearing the terrestrial crossing materials to the orbit of Venus, you then can build habits in orbit where if air leaks from them it spills back down to Venus, and you then just keep scooping more air from Venus into your orbital habitats. That is not to say that their could be no cloud cities.

Enging Pending

Last edited by Void (Yesterday 14:41:33)

Void · Yesterday 16:40:15

I think that I may be closer now to an orbital atmosphere-breathing engine. Thankfully there are already some professional works in this area. I am hoping to not only run an engine off of collected atmosphere, but to collect the atmosphere to use as propellant in rockets and other types of propulsion engines that cannot breath live, but must "Hold Their Breath".

We have 7 planets with significant atmospheres.
We have perhaps 2 moons with significant atmospheres. Titan and Tritan, but maybe Callisto and Ganymede also?
We have one Dwarf Planet with significant atmosphere Pluto.

And eventually we may give our Moon enough of an atmosphere to mine from orbit.

I have a modification of my cylinder that has ends towards each pole, and will include a magnetic field with poles more or less aligned with that, and then the use of capacitive condensation, and the use of an eductor type of pump to skim molecules off of the open plate capacitors.

https://shipfever.com/what-is-an-eductor/

I also hope that the device can be given concentrated energy from satellites orbiting further up that collect solar energy. The likely method of transmission would be infrared laser.

I will attempt some drawings over time tonight.

OK, lets try this:

So, I am expecting the Electron Balloon to collect (+) or even neutral molecules on it's outside because of the attractiveness of the (-) electrons imposed inside of it by an electron gun painting electrons to the inner surface of the electron balloon.

Then we would use an eductor to shoot a stream of air over the surface of the capacitor outside to scrape molecules off and into a reciever which we hope would get both the stream of air and the skim off of the outer surface of the capacitor.

The stream of air could actually be from some sort of Electric Rocket unit. Of course getting it to tolerate the gasses is an issue. I am hoping that at least for Venus, Helium can be collected and separated out to use. So, perhaps if it can fly though the bow shock it can get all sorts of gasses including atmospheric gasses and solar wind gasses.

Earth and Mars will each be a different case. Jupiter has such gravity and such radiation.

Saturn, Uranus, and Neptune may offer Hydrogen, Helium, Deuterium, and Helium 3, I hope. But each may present unknown problems.

Titan, Triton, and Pluto might give mostly Nitrogen.

Comments welcome.

Ending Pending

Polarity indicates both the orientation of the cylinder, and the imposed magnetic field.

The Magnetic field may attract and catch Ions. Perhaps some neutral atoms would get in as well.

Ending Pending

Last edited by Void (Yesterday 17:13:51)

Void · Today 07:49:20

In the previous post I partially describe a device I think may be of value. I am somewhat basing the magnetic part on the idea of a magnetic heat shield, which I understand could collect ionized gasses into itself.

This article is about a not too old device NASA has connections to: https://www.space.com/nasa-hypersonic-m … ic-control

At the core of the magnetic field, inside the insulated cylinder, I am hoping that the molecules collected will intercept a cold "Electron Balloon". This device may have an electron gun that paints electrons onto the inner surface of the "Electron Balloon". The "Electron Balloon" is to be electrically resistive like the method of a capacitor. The hope is to get molecules to stick to the outer surface of the "Electron Balloon", as like a air type capacitor. The British have seemed to call a capacitor a "Condenser", which is what we would want. We want to use electrostatic cling to build a film of molecules on the outer surface of the electron balloon. We also want the "Electron Balloon" to be cold. The hope is that passive cooling can occur from the open ends of the cylinders which are to point North and South relative to the sun, as to inhibit heating on the inside of the cylinder, by sunlight. The cylinder is to also have insulation to inhibit conduction of heat from the outside of the cylinder into the inside of the cylinder.

If necessary, perhaps active cooling of the "Electron Balloon" might be tried, but of course this would cost energy, complexity, and mass penalties.

I then attempt to make use of a sort of Eductor, to sip molecules from the film of molecules that it is hoped will coat the outer surface of the "Electron Balloon". (That would be the "Inlet Gas").

https://shipfever.com/what-is-an-eductor/
Image Quote:

The "Motive Fluid" could be Helium, I beg and wish. In other words, I would like a less corrosive gas of some sort. The Solar Wind is about 8% Helium I think I recall, so it could be that the upper atmosphere of Earth, Mars, Venus, and others will contain some Helium, and I also wish some Hydrogen.

But if not then perhaps Nitrogen could do.

At any rate some or all types of molecules from the outlet could be recirculated to the "Motive Fluid" inlet, and be given pressure or inertia.

If Pressure, then compressed gas.
If inertia, then I hope some type of electric rocket device like a "Hall Thruster".

A substitute for the eductor method could be tiny piezoelectric pumps, with a sort of plunger action to compress the molecules in the film on the outside of the "Electron Balloon".

I have not specified how the total device maintains orbit, if it is collecting molecules and also experiencing friction of an uppermore atmosphere. Either it has engines, such as hall thrusters or some new novel method, or it has to be connected to a tow line, a tether, and a larger device above pulls it up.

In a bad situation the magnetic field could be turned off to reduce drag, I think.

In any case, I intend to reduce the drag of the device by having it in communion in terms of power with larger power satellites, that would be in higher orbits, to avoid atmospheric drag.

It seems to me that a microwave rectenna may be too large, but I don't know. Other entities are experimenting with infrared lasers to transmit power. Perhaps that could work.

Anyway, the big hope is to refill in part or greatly spacecraft from molecules extracted from the uppermost atmospheres of worlds.

I also would like to see the Moon as such a resupply method. If you had sufficient industrial activity on the Moon, it may develop a very thin atmosphere. If you imposed a magnetic field, for the Moon, you might entrain Hydrogen and Helium into that thin atmosphere. You would have to make the magnetic field "Leaky" to allow that.

The planet Mercury I believe has a natural magnetic field that is somewhat leaky:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mercury%2 … onomers%29.
Quote:

Scientists noted that Mercury's magnetic field can be extremely "leaky," because MESSENGER encountered magnetic "tornadoes" during its second fly-by on October 6, 2008, which could possibly replenish the atmosphere (or "exosphere", as referred to by astronomers).

The magnetic field might also reduce the rate of loss of atmosphere.

As I have mentioned before we might hope that extraction of Deuterium and Helium 3 may be possible from one or more of the four outer planets, as well as Hydrogen and Helium.

Ending Pending

Last edited by Void (Today 08:29:37)

New Mars Forums

Announcement

#1 2024-08-26 08:11:13

Interworld Para Terraforming

#2 2024-08-26 09:34:24

Re: Interworld Para Terraforming

#3 2024-08-26 10:21:44

Re: Interworld Para Terraforming

#4 2024-08-27 10:51:25

Re: Interworld Para Terraforming

#5 2024-08-29 09:24:24

Re: Interworld Para Terraforming

#6 2024-09-01 12:10:47

Re: Interworld Para Terraforming

#7 2024-10-16 08:02:46

Re: Interworld Para Terraforming

#8 2024-10-16 12:36:30

Re: Interworld Para Terraforming

#9 2024-10-17 07:28:26

Re: Interworld Para Terraforming

#10 2024-10-18 08:53:23

Re: Interworld Para Terraforming

#11 2024-10-18 13:20:06

Re: Interworld Para Terraforming

#12 2024-10-19 07:29:48

Re: Interworld Para Terraforming

#13 2024-10-19 10:00:47

Re: Interworld Para Terraforming

#14 2024-10-19 12:39:27

Re: Interworld Para Terraforming

#15 2024-10-20 09:27:54

Re: Interworld Para Terraforming

#16 2024-10-29 08:51:04

Re: Interworld Para Terraforming

#17 2024-11-04 13:23:20

Re: Interworld Para Terraforming

#18 2024-11-04 15:20:20

Re: Interworld Para Terraforming

#19 2024-11-04 18:12:28

Re: Interworld Para Terraforming

#20 2024-11-05 02:44:00

Re: Interworld Para Terraforming

#21 2024-11-05 04:41:22

Re: Interworld Para Terraforming

#22 2024-11-06 20:50:12

Re: Interworld Para Terraforming

#23 Yesterday 13:52:40

Re: Interworld Para Terraforming

#24 Yesterday 16:40:15

Re: Interworld Para Terraforming

#25 Today 07:49:20

Re: Interworld Para Terraforming

Board footer