Beyond Darwin - "We can evolve you"

Trebuchet · 2005-03-14 19:01:24

And Dook, your description of the suffering of so many people in this world, especially the children, can hardly fail to move us all to heartfelt pity. Believe me, I do feel the pain.
However, I'm hoping that stem-cell research which doesn't rely on 'killing Peter to save Paul' will generate all the benefits we're looking for without compromising our humanity.

Yes, this sums up my hopes as well. I was pissed that Dook would use such a... well, cheap shot, saying that I didn't understand or know, when I did. There just happens to be a line in my mental sand I won't cross to cure those things.

Grypd · 2005-03-14 19:12:25

It is true that we have not got a real good idea of when the egg becomes a Human, and has all the rights that a person should have.

But it comes down to at what time does the egg become people. when it is first fertilised or when it has become a fetus. I would use the rule of thumb if it has a brain then it is Human so in the first 2 weeks this is not the case.

But do we have to manufacture stem cells well not necassarily. They are present in people still assuming you are fertile either male or female. Is it harder to get them. yes, but at least they are already genetically similar to you.

The above arquement only really comes down when we start designer babies either so we can screen them to ensure that a particular gene disease does not get passed down, or to the more controversial making sure that the genes we want are in those children.

Dook · 2005-03-14 20:38:42

How can you NOT be emotional about this? We are talking about the lives of millions of people, thousands of times that if you multiply it by the many years wasted because of the fanatical, closed minded, ignorant, de-evolutionary religious people who view a fertilized cell as a full human being. "Be fruitful and multiply at any cost" they yell, arguing against birth control, increasing the spread of AIDS across Africa, increasing the population many times that of the available food supply there and in India as well. God never meant for us to be stupid.

There is no way you "feel the pain". You get to go home after the movie is over. You don't have to watch a child go through sixty operations to fix a face that had no nose, and to separate webbed fingers and toes, just to be normal, all because of a few mixed up fragments of DNA.

No credible dividing line between a cell and a born baby? You've got to be kidding me? Lets see, a fertilized cell the size of a period that is nothing more than a group of chemicals and an eight pound, crying, pissing, hungry baby with a name. There are thousands of dividing lines between the two even though you can't accept it.

You think God sends a soul to an egg that might be miscarried at any moment? That is the real issue. Not when does life begin but when does it become aware. When does it become what is really human? You go to cemetaries and talk to dissolving flesh, thinking it is the person you lost. You religious fanatics, you don't even understand your own religion. You follow the preachings of men because you don't have the confidence to read and understand it yourself. What you should worship is the incredible relationship of sentient energy joined with matter, a person aware of themself, created to learn, grow, understand, wonder... Created to create. That is what's important. That's why there is a universe at all. You think all of this is so you can work your way up to middle management, get a better SUV and retire in Florida? You think that's why God created a huge universe, so complex that humans with Star Trek technology couldn't explore even a thousandth of?

You think we should keep the body alive long after the soul has gone because you worship the flesh as if it's the greatest thing that God created, this whole universe is ours, and the earth is at the center! You never once question where that voice inside your head comes from. Must be the brain. Worshipping flesh again. It's like putting animals on the same level with humans because "there's no credible dividing line between the two".

This issue has nothing to do with abortion. An abortion is the removal of a fetus. Scientists want to join an egg with a sperm cell to create a fertilized cell in a dish to then harvest stem cells. It's not a fetus! It's never, ever, going to become a fetus! You think a cell has a name, it doesn't! A person has a name. A baby, an infant, has a name. Stems cells cultured in a petri dish are not given names.

Trebuchet · 2005-03-14 21:08:08

Whatever.

Palomar · 2005-03-14 21:10:16

*People disagree, Dook. Get used to it.

Be fruitful and multiply at any cost" they yell, arguing against birth control

I'm all for birth control.

increasing the spread of AIDS across Africa

And elsewhere. Asia and Russia are, if the latest reports are any indication, poised to explode into a similar problem as Africa is currently experiencing if they don't learn the meaning of the words condom and/or abstinence soon.

Lets see, a fertilized cell the size of a period that is nothing more than a group of chemicals and an eight pound, crying, pissing, hungry baby with a name.

The baby you describe became that baby via the earliest beginnings of its life -- even when it was "just" a fertilized cell the size of a period.

There are thousands of dividing lines between the two even though you can't accept it.

What about doctors who perform partial-birth abortions? Maybe they don't believe it's a real human yet, because it's still attached to the placenta via the umbilical cord?

You think God sends a soul to an egg

I'm an agnostic. I don't know that there is a soul or a God...but if -you- believe there is a soul and a God, perhaps you should rethink this over a bit more carefully.

You religious fanatics, you don't even understand your own religion

:laugh: :laugh: Yeah...agnostics are such "religious fanatics." So are atheists, I suppose.

There's no need for belligerence and insults, Dook (people are "religious fanatics" because they don't see eye-to-eye with you? Puh-leeeze). You needn't agree with anyone here. No one is asking you to; we're just all sharing our viewpoints.

--Cindy

P.S.: I also don't equate life with soul, as you seem to (which actually is a religious notion -- *uh-oh*!). Life begins at conception, IMO; that certainly -doesn't- mean I also believe a "soul" is put into a fertilized egg at the moment of conception. Life and soul aren't synonymous words to me, because I know the former exists whereas I don't know whether the latter exists.

I sure am glad I'm long past the fertilized egg stage in this day and age. :-\ Others aren't so fortunate, apparently.

Dook · 2005-03-14 22:19:06

Ignorant religious leaders are not to blame for the increase of AIDS and children born to parents who can't support them in Asia and Russia though. You can put the blame squarely on the Catholic church for that problem in Africa.

I know where babies come from. But a fertilized egg is not a human no matter what crazy description you choose. "But it's going to become a human", no it's not. A fertilized egg in a petrie dish will never become a human and just having DNA is not what makes us 'human'. Dead people have human DNA. There is a difference, a really, really, important difference. All the difference in the universe.

Spin. You are desperately trying to make this an abortion debate. A fertilized egg is not a baby and it's not a fetus. It's a clump of chemicals. It's not even close to a partial-birth abortion no matter how much you attempt to spin it.

Rethink this over? Don't put me in with the Catholics. Sigh... Even though you are agnostic you think of God in religious terms. You think God wants us to worship cells? DNA? Flesh? God doesn't want that, the church does! They do because they strictly interpret "Be fruitful and multiply" and don't care that people cannot clothe and feed those born.

You think a soul wants to be born into a body stricken with Tay-Sach's?

If there is no such thing as a soul then why do people change when they die? We can keep air flowing into the lungs, we can keep the blood moving in the veins and arteries but for some reason the person just doesn't wake up and talk. I wonder why that voice inside their head isn't there anymore?

Shaun Barrett · 2005-03-15 03:42:46

Such confusion, Dook.
Let me see, you believe in God and you believe in 'souls' ... but you hate the Catholic Church.
Hmmm. I think I see your problem.
The Catholics are particularly pro-life and anti-abortion, so although you're quite religious, you can't allow yourself to see a fertilized egg as human because that would put you in the Catholic camp - a fate worse than death or damnation in your particular sect or denomination(?)!

Am I right or wrong? Just curious.

If I'm completely wrong and you're irreligious, like Cindy, why have you become so belligerent over a simple discussion about when a human becomes a human? Your apparently over-excited reaction hints at a deep-seated internal conflict or ideological struggle.
What church do you belong to, exactly. Give us a clue.

Grypd · 2005-03-15 05:58:34

If we view the spread of the HIV strain amongst both African and Asian countries we find that it is the Poor, undereducated countries that have the worst problem. Unlike the western world these countries have no sex education or anything like a decent medical service. This is because they simply cannot afford it or are under a country where most funds are simply being syphoned off illegally.

There is also what appears to be a genetic link too(see previous post). But in Russia which also is pretty much ignoring the aids epedemic it spreads. Even in the west where we pay for a lot of information we are struggling to stop the spread of this disease. Our problem is simply the "it wont happen to me" outlook.

Dook · 2005-03-15 08:29:45

I don't hate the Catholic Church but through history they have promoted ignorance and continue to this day to do so. They sentenced Galileo to death when he said the sun was the center of the solar system. He was the only person in the world with a telescope! Pure ignorance. They promoted hate against the Jews and sat quiet while they were exterminated. Today they are against birth control in countries that desperately need it. Condoms are freely given out in Africa but the people don't use them partly because they don't want to and also they have the excuse given to them by the Catholic church there. The church does promote abstinence but fails to understand the complete failure of that philosophy. And this is what people choose to follow? Not just the Catholics but anyone who goes to church chooses to follow a man. I would say you are choosing to follow a man over God for God is not in any church.

The church battles against evolution while the proof is overwhelming. Who is the church to tell God 'how' He can choose to create a universe and life in it? If God wants to have humans evolve from a simple form of life then that's what's going to happen. You accuse me of hating the Catholics but in truth I hate ignorance. And it's not just a different opinion.

When you think of God, you think of religion, a church, maybe Catholicism. Religion is made by man so it's inherently faulty. Lets see, I can commit a sin then say a few 'hail Mary's' and give some money and then I am forgiven? We are forgiven when we decide not to commit sin again. It's automatic. No church needed. If you or anyone goes to a church every Sunday and it works for them, it truly helps them be a better person, then I am all for it. But whatever choices they make, whatever they do, regardless if it's the teachings of the church or not, is there responsibility. Each will be held responsible for their own actions. So why choose to follow a man? Because they can't understand the bible. Here it is, "Do No Harm". That's it. That's all you must abide by. Sure there is much more in the stories, Genesis explains evolution, other parts of the bible warn of mold and blood and tell of sacrifices. The idea of forgiveness is promoted in the new testament, the complete opposite of what the old testament proclaims "An eye for an eye". The bible itself is an evolution of thought about how to teach these humans to choose to be good. Why does anyone need to follow a man in a church for that?

What religion am I? I don't know but I guarantee, without a doubt, that my belief in God is stronger than any person who goes to a church every Sunday. They can't think for themselves. They can't understand a God separate from man made religion.

Now think for yourself. God hasn't been around here (the earth) in a very long time. We have complete free will in the solar system. It's ours. We are responsible for policing ourselves, putting out fires, helping the poor, raising our children, caring for our elderly, and maintaining the environment. To do all of this we need to be smart. We need to learn everything we can about this complex system God created because no one is going to come to help. God won't be upset if we use DNA to fix a few problems. In my opinion He would be proud of our accomplishment.

Shaun Barrett · 2005-03-15 18:08:44

Thank you, Dook, for clarifying your philosophy, much of which I can closely empathize with.
"Do No Harm" sums up most of the great teachings of history and I think the majority of people genuinely believe in that maxim, though on a day-to-day basis they tend to make bad decisions which undermine it.

You and I (and I dare say others here) are more closely aligned than it might appear. If only we could reach agreement on what constitutes "Harm", or even just the potential for harm, in that "Do No Harm" rule.
I guess some of us see more potential harm in harvesting embryos than others see.

Dook · 2005-03-15 22:01:25

Thank you, Dook, for clarifying your philosophy, much of which I can closely empathize with.
"Do No Harm" sums up most of the great teachings of history and I think the majority of people genuinely believe in that maxim, though on a day-to-day basis they tend to make bad decisions which undermine it.
You and I (and I dare say others here) are more closely aligned than it might appear. If only we could reach agreement on what constitutes "Harm", or even just the potential for harm, in that "Do No Harm" rule.
I guess some of us see more potential harm in harvesting embryos than others see.

Do no harm is purposely vague and does not cover specifics. Those are left for people to figure out for themselves. Taken literaly it could be interpretted so that someone would not walk down the street for fear of stepping on an ant. Sometimes the benefit outweighs the amount of harm committed, and regrettably, there are times when great harm prevents even greater harm (WW2, AIDS in Africa reducing the population preventing greater starvations).

To the issue of fertilized egg being used to harvest stem cells, I see great benefits that would come from 'harming' a cell. I don't see the cell as human because DNA does not make us human, it only makes the body under the right conditions. If God decided to not send a soul into it then it would be an animal. I am amazed that some of you have even called a fertilized egg a 'human'. The one thing I think it compares most to is a dead human. They both are just a bunch of chemicals.

I believe the eggs and sperm used in this process could be removed from those who have passed away in hospitals, much like we remove other organs. So they would never have developed into humans anyway.

Dook · 2005-03-15 22:07:52

If it turned out that a soul joins with a fertilized egg at conception, then I would absolutely change my opinion.

Shaun Barrett · 2005-03-16 00:34:58

I'm not inclined to pursue this discussion much further and I may regret asking this question but, just so I know, at what point do you think a soul is added to the embryo/foetus/baby?
i.e. When would you say a human becomes a human and acquires the same right to protection as any other human?

Dook · 2005-03-16 07:59:38

I really wish I knew the answer to that one but I can't imagine it happening until the brain has formed enough.

I used to think it happened somewhere around age 2 because that's about as far back as most people can remember but I just don't know.

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#26 2005-03-14 19:01:24

Re: Beyond Darwin - "We can evolve you"

#27 2005-03-14 19:12:25

Re: Beyond Darwin - "We can evolve you"

#28 2005-03-14 20:38:42

Re: Beyond Darwin - "We can evolve you"

#29 2005-03-14 21:08:08

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#30 2005-03-14 21:10:16

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#31 2005-03-14 22:19:06

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#32 2005-03-15 03:42:46

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#38 2005-03-16 00:34:58

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