Balloon or dirigible for Mars "hot air" or gas filled

tahanson43206 · 2023-09-27 08:55:45

Per Google:

The entire field is a rectangle 360 feet (110 m) long by 160 feet (49 m) wide; covering a total of 1.32 acres.
American football field - Wikipedia
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Thus, if we have a member who is inspired to run the numbers, we have the surface area of a sphere which might be filled with Hydrogen or Helium.

Earlier in this topic, both Calliban and I came up with estimates for the lifting capability of differing volumes of gas in air on Mars.

11 grams per cubic meter seems like a number that might have been in the ballpark.

In any case, it would appear that if an envelope that has a surface area equal to an American football field weighs only one gram on Earth, then such a balloon would certainly lift itself on Mars. How high it would go should be knowable.

A balloon made of Graphene might be given a hue if the weight of the coloring can be kept below 11 grams per cubic meter of envelope surface.

In ** that ** case, there might be entertainment value in launching balloons on Mars to see how far they go on the wind.

(th)

tahanson43206 · 2023-09-27 11:17:06

In this post:

http://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.php … 35#p214135

kbd512 has provided detail from a report he discovered, that shows results from testing a small balloon in a simulated Mars atmosphere on Earth (both at surface and aloft).

I'd like to add to the reporting on Graphene as a possible wall material for a balloon....

Bing found this citation:

at what rate does hydrogen pass through graphene
at what rate does hydrogen pass through graphene
240Animation
SEARCHCHATIMAGESVIDEOSMAPSNEWSSHOPPINGMORE
TOOLS
About 111,000 results
Billions of years
Even an atom as small as hydrogen would need billions of years for it to pass through the dense electronic cloud of graphene. In fact, it is this impermeability that has made it attractive for use in gas separation membranes.
Graphene-based Fuel Cell Membrane Could Extract Hydrogen Direc…
spectrum.ieee.org/graphenebased-fuel-cell-membrane-could-extract-hydrogen-directly-from-air
spectrum.ieee.org/graphenebased-fuel-cell-membrane-could-extract-hydrogen-di…
What are the challenges of using it?
How is graphene made?
What are the benefits

it sure does look as though Graphene could hold a balloon full of Hydrogen.

Whether Graphene can be made into a balloon of any size, and whether Graphene can support a payload, are yet to be determined.

(th)

Mars_B4_Moon · 2023-09-27 17:49:33

Maybe a Hot-Air Balloon fails but I am not ready to admit such failure.

If we are inside Hellas Planitia then 12.4 mbar would be used, the Basin is typically even at its elevated points still 89% higher than the pressure of Mars. This post is not to confirm or debunk if a 'Hot-Air' Balloon will fly on Mars but I believe using 6.5 mbars is not correct. The pressure is higher in a Deep Crater / Planita and some type of Balloon or Airship, the problem with a 'Hot Air' design is it begins to max out on Earth around 69,000 ft but other designs for example robotic stratosphere Balloons from Japan are going much higher, you can go higher than hot air designs
175,000 + ft and more.

Hellas Basin has its own weather system, frequent weather systems or clouds or storms occur within the basin. I believe taking the measurement of 6.5 mbar pressure also is a mistake or perhaps incorrect, the point is not to prove a Balloon will fail on a higher region on Mars but to see if it can work in any region on Mars. Most likely humans could live in different parts of Mars for example in a large deep crater Hellas Planitia an area of much higher pressure or in a future people will enter a Deep Crater it would be occupied by manufacturing farming robots, the region can be compared to a large part of the USA or Australia, Western Australia, South Australia, Northern Territory or Queensland, New South Wales, Victoria, Tasmania, South Australia, Northern Territory, if you take the altitude of the Hellas Planitia Crater it is like taking Mt Everest and flipping it upside down, NASA has flown Balloons in Earth atmosphere as an comparable analogy to test radiation on Mars, at 35-60 km on Earth Pressures at times are compared with Mars depending on the seasons. Water Ice and chemical production might be mined inside Hellas Crater and lifted out by Balloon Airship when the weather currents are suitable and the air reaches higher density during the Winter months.
JAXA have been testing Balloons at 35 to 46 km to as even high as 53 km or 176,000 ft in some news articles
https://global.jaxa.jp/projects/sas/bal … opics10442
53.7 km or 176,000 ft
https://web.archive.org/web/20131110061 … s0913e.htm
The Japanese Space Agency believe they can fly Balloon as high as 60 km on Earth.
On Mars there are high-altitude flows from higher plateau into the Crater and weather systems generated inside the crater with-altitude flow from Low crater sea with a reverse surface flow of air to higher lands. The failed Mars 2 space probe by the Soviet Union was the closest any Lander or Rover got to this Crater but no readings have been taken from the ground. The Mars Hellas Crater or roughly circular impact Basin or Planitia is huge, it is one of the Largest known impact crater in the entire Solar System it is a Diameter of 2,300 km or 1,400 miles. Inside this crater it is not 6.5 mbar but readings of atmospheric pressure at 1,155 Pa (11.55 mbar, 0.17 psi, or 0.01 atm). it is sometimes 12.4 mbar, 1240 Pa or 0.18 psi or higher, satellites might find even higher readings in winter as air is coldest and reaches its highest density, the crater might even create its own events by way of 'explosive boiling' which created strangely Mars Global Surveyor observations satellite observed features in the crater.

To Great Depths
https://www.uahirise.org/ESP_049330_1425

Hellas is an ancient impact structure and is the deepest and broadest enclosed basin on Mars. It measures about 2,300 kilometers across and the floor of the basin, Hellas Planitia, contains the lowest elevations on Mars.
The Hellas region can often be difficult to view from orbit due to seasonal frost, water-ice clouds and dust storms, yet this region is intriguing because of its diverse, and oftentimes bizarre, landforms.
This image from eastern Hellas Planitia shows some of the unusual features on the basin floor. These relatively flat-lying “cells” appear to have concentric layers or bands, similar to a honeycomb. This “honeycomb” terrain exists elsewhere in Hellas, but the geologic process responsible for creating these features remains unresolved.

Ginny lifts itself 3–5 m (10–16 ft) on a higher elevated region. They say NASA JPL's helicopter flying is roughly equivalent to a helicopter flying at 34,000 m (112,000 ft) altitude in the atmosphere of Earth but we know Japanese Balloons go much, much higher again 53,340 m or 175,000 + ft and more. JPL has already stated aerial scouting will work on Mars and if Ingenuity (helicopter) can take to the sky on Syrtis Major Planum my gut feeling is a type of Balloon or Airship with the correct design inside a Deep Planitia, will do much better and lift a much higher payload from Hellas where there is thicker atmosphere of Mars.

Last edited by Mars_B4_Moon (2023-09-27 18:05:08)

tahanson43206 · 2023-12-18 19:10:29

This post is reserved for a link to a paper by GW Johnson about balloons on Mars.

GW has already discussed the challenges of flying a balloon (of any kind) on Mars.

The paper includes charts showing details that support the conclusions.

link here: https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/wx5m8yr1 … q66x6&dl=0

(th)

Calliban · 2023-12-19 06:48:51

The problem with very thin balloons containing hydrogen is that hydrogen will slowly diffuse through them. Mars is very cold, which should reduce the rate of diffusion. The thinner the material the faster the diffusion. The gas is not pressurised, which reduces the diffusion rate. But bouyancy itself introduces pressure forces.

Maybe one potential use for balloons on Mars is to take photographs of landscapes at low altitude. The payload capacity needed to do this is almost negligible. It might even be possible to print some components on the surface of the balloon. A base on Mars would probably generate a surplus of hydrogen from electrolysis, which would generate the oxygen needed for breathing. A 150m diameter balloon would not be cheap to make. But it would probably be cheaper than a satellite.

Last edited by Calliban (2023-12-19 06:54:27)

SpaceNut · 2023-12-19 10:13:52

Earth Altitude with Equivalent Pressure to Mars

Calliban · 2023-12-19 10:59:18

Regarding the photography balloons. These would have no propulsion system, because mass limits do not allow it. Rather, we would take the balloon to a lattitude where we want to release it. We then inflate with hydrogen, release the balloon and let the wind carry it round the planet.

It terms of transmitting data back to base. We could equip the camera with enough terabits of memory to store its photographs and then collect the camera when it finally comes down. Or we could transmit the data back to base. Mars has an ionosphere, which allows it to propogate long wave radio waves much like Earth. Data transmission rates will be low compared UHF radio. But if PV cells are printed on the upper surdace of the balloon, they coukd be used to power a radio transmitter continuously during daytime. Even after the balloon loses bouyancy and falls to the ground, it could continue to power the radio, sending accumulated data back to base. In this way, photographic data could be transmitted back to base, without having to put communication satellites into orbit.

To keep mass limits down, printed electronic components would be desirable. We can probably do this with PV materials. We won't be able to include abrasion resistant cover material. But the balloon itself would have too short a life for this to matter. Whether printed electronics can be done for something as complex as a camera and radio transmitter is uncertain.

Last edited by Calliban (2023-12-19 11:05:09)

tahanson43206 · 2023-12-19 12:35:20

For Calliban re #32 and other posts in this topic...

Thanks for helping to bring this topic back to life!

Something that may be possible, and which has not yet shown up in the forum (as far as I know) is the idea of heating the balloon at night using microwave radiation from a mobile platform. If the vehicle (balloon) is large enough to carry a small payload/equipment package, then there might be room for an antenna capable of receiving microwave power similar to that planned for solar power satellites. If so, then the gas inside the envelope of the balloon could be heated at night, when sunlight is absent. That technique would (presumably) extend the flight time for a given balloon.

Something else to consider for the photographic mission, is tethering the balloon to a ground vehicle. The camera would be as height as the tether will allow, and the field of view would be correspondingly large. If such a tether were used, then it could (presumably) carry current to heat the gas inside the balloon to increase lift when it is needed.

(th)

SpaceNut · 2023-12-19 14:47:11

We will need power as well for our craft somthing along this concept maye.

tahanson43206 · 2023-12-19 14:52:21

For SpaceNut re #34

Nice picture!

Please revise the design per GW Johnson's paper on the subject.

It is published by a link in at least one post in the forum, in the past day or two.

(th)

tahanson43206 · 2023-12-19 15:16:56

For SpaceNut .... here is a link to a post where the link to GW's paper is available.

http://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.php … 22#p217322

Your airship is designed for Earth, and needs to be modified for Mars.

The volume is on the order of 60,000,000 cubic feet, and the airframe and payload must be less that 1000 pounds to fly on Mars.

(th)

SpaceNut · 2023-12-23 10:37:55

Not a mars design but its information Spaceship Neptune balloon capsule taking shape in Titusville hangar for 2024 test flight

Resembling a white whiffle ball spanning 14½ feet across, Space Perspective's prototype Spaceship Neptune is taking shape to soar on a series of test flights to the brink of space — beneath a huge hydrogen-filled balloon.
Spaceship Neptune is a pressurized circular capsule expected to take its inaugural flight during the first quarter of 2024, said Taber MacCallum, co-founder and co-CEO of Space Perspective.
For now, Spaceship Neptune is flanked by chrome metal scaffolding inside a hangar at Space Coast Regional Airport in Titusville. Technicians wearing white protective coveralls, blue gloves and red headlamps have finished assembling the carbon-composite sphere, which was manufactured at a Melbourne factory.
Over the next few weeks, MacCallum said crews will install 15 windows, shipped in from California. Inside the sphere, workers will add systems to handle temperature control, life support, communications, navigation and other equipment.
Once construction is complete, MacCallum said crews will load the capsule and balloon onto the company's specially outfitted 294-foot ship MS Voyager at Port Canaveral, then launch about 20 miles off the shoreline.
The space balloon's multi-hour maiden flight will be visible to spectators across Brevard County, he said.
"We'll probably do 10 to 14 test flights. Maybe 10 flights without people. Then in that process, we'll be building a human-rated vehicle — so this is meant to be a prototype," MacCallum said, standing alongside a yellow authorized-personnel-only metal barricade near Spaceship Neptune.

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#26 2023-09-27 08:55:45

Re: Balloon or dirigible for Mars "hot air" or gas filled

#27 2023-09-27 11:17:06

Re: Balloon or dirigible for Mars "hot air" or gas filled

#28 2023-09-27 17:49:33

Re: Balloon or dirigible for Mars "hot air" or gas filled

#29 2023-12-18 19:10:29

Re: Balloon or dirigible for Mars "hot air" or gas filled

#30 2023-12-19 06:48:51

Re: Balloon or dirigible for Mars "hot air" or gas filled

#31 2023-12-19 10:13:52

Re: Balloon or dirigible for Mars "hot air" or gas filled

#32 2023-12-19 10:59:18

Re: Balloon or dirigible for Mars "hot air" or gas filled

#33 2023-12-19 12:35:20

Re: Balloon or dirigible for Mars "hot air" or gas filled

#34 2023-12-19 14:47:11

Re: Balloon or dirigible for Mars "hot air" or gas filled

#35 2023-12-19 14:52:21

Re: Balloon or dirigible for Mars "hot air" or gas filled

#36 2023-12-19 15:16:56

Re: Balloon or dirigible for Mars "hot air" or gas filled

#37 2023-12-23 10:37:55

Re: Balloon or dirigible for Mars "hot air" or gas filled

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