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This forum is fortunate to have members with a variety of backgrounds and experiences, to help with the significant challenge of trying to think through the realities of travel to and life on Mars. This topic was inspired by a remarkable Zoom session on September 25. The only members in attendance were kbd512, RobertDyck and the Mars Society Volunteer, and no recording was made.
After a starting question by RobertDyck, about the dimensions of under-bunk storage aboard US Navy ships, Navy Veteran kbd512 treated us to two hours of tours of many US Navy ships, and added context to the images Google found from his personal experience on board several ships for extended periods of time.
In the Large Ship topic, kbd512 has offered several posts that touch on the subject of the tight quarters that the current Large Ship design will impose upon passengers and crew. In general, it is my impression that kbd512 is sanguine about the experience awaiting Large Ship travelers. After attending kbd512's presentation last night, I have a better understanding of why he is confident that the conditions on board Large Ship might not only be survivable, but actually enjoyable.
This topic is available for any NewMars member to offer personal insights about the conditions that Large Ship travelers will face.
Please note: This topic is NOT available for rants of any kind.
There are plenty of topics available in this forum for rants, and under the leadership of SpaceNut, there is a high tolerance for excesses along those lines.
I'm looking for serious discussion of a serious concern. A bit of levity is fine.
I'd like this topic to be suitable for reading by students who are learning about space flight and the Mars project.
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The psychology of civilians is not identical to that of people who join the navy, in turn not identical to the subset of navy people who serve aboard submarines. Neither is a good guide to what you might face with civilians cooped up for months in a big ship. Submariners are one unique group, even in today's boats, which are quite spacious compared to older models. Civilians are going to be far more wildly variable in their psychological makeup, and you will get less warning about problems that could crop up.
Here is the problem you will encounter, and I do mean "will". It will take some weeks for the problems to surface. But aboard a space ship, there is no turning back, and there is no emergency rescue to send somebody back. You will have to deal with this aboard the ship.
It takes something different than a brig or a standard medical facility; it takes a "rubber room" and mental health medical personnel, and you will have multiple examples to treat by the time you reach Mars from Earth. The tighter the confinement, the more of these will surface. You probably will have to bring them home over the return voyage, as any operating community on Mars will not be able to tolerate keeping "whackos" in their midst, even if treatable.
You cannot let them wander about the ship (or the community on Mars). Too much damage can be done. You have to treat them in some sort of confinement and send them home in some sort of confinement, or you have to space them. I see no other choices.
Out of 1000, I bet at least 10 or 20 of these cases will crop up. Just a guess, but I see all sorts of crazies around me every day. Most on the roads, but not all of them. Some of them gibber on the radio or the TV.
GW
GW Johnson
McGregor, Texas
"There is nothing as expensive as a dead crew, especially one dead from a bad management decision"
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GW Johnson: thank-you. I greatly value the experience and knowledge of kbd512 for having served on a large ship. And many things, such as under bunk storage, I would like to copy. However, I have pointed out before that this ship is a passenger vessel carrying civilians, there will be differences. I have tried to use my very limited experience on day excursions aboard a passenger ship. And more importantly TV shows that depict life aboard real cruise ships (Mighty Ships). For sick bay operations, I looked up online documents with advice for any medical doctor considering working for a cruise ship, with details about work load and conditions to expect and general life for a doctor working on a cruise ship. I did cite a website that described a ferry in Scandinavia, which is a civilian transport rather than a luxury cruise ship.
As GW pointed out, even life aboard a US navy submarine is different than US Supercarrier. By the way, British full-size aircraft carriers were about 40,000 ton displacement. US carriers, starting with the Forrestal, were roughly 100,000 tons. They're "super".
Life aboard our Large Ship will have many similarities to an American aircraft carrier, but also many differences. One example of civilians cooped up for months on a cruise ship is use of ships as quarantine for COVID-19. The Diamond Princess was one. Look there.
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I hesitate, but you want psychology. Here's a story of something bad. The host of this channel tries to support men. He rails against the media when they say "women good, men bad". So if it sounds at times that he criticizes women, realize he isn't really against women, but against criticism of men. A good part of his channel is dating advice for men, and warnings against bad women. His back story is he got burnt badly by a woman. With that in mind, here's a story that relates to psychology in space.
YouTube: Slow news day let's go down a rabbit hole.
The host says the Wikipedia page on this woman has been "scrubbed". I found what he was looking for on that very Wikipedia page. At the top it says:
Serena Maria Auñón-Chancellor (born April 9, 1976) is an American physician, engineer, and NASA astronaut. She visited the ISS as a flight engineer for Expedition 56/57 on the International Space Station.
Notice the links for both Expedition 56 & 57. Serena Auñón-Chancellor was part of both expeditions, entering ISS with the first, returning to Earth with the second. Dates are on web pages for each expedition.
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Whatever happened there was clearly done from the inside of the module, and after paint was applied. If it happened on Earth, it would be immediately noticeable that atmosphere was venting to space when the module was pressurized. I wasn't there and won't take anyone's word about what happened, because American and Russian media are known cheerleaders / propagandists for their respective countries. I would be very interested to know if the damage was caused by an astronaut. There was no direct refutation by NASA that such a thing never happened, merely a statement to the effect that they support their astronaut. I'm happy to know that they support their own people, but that makes me think there might be something to this. Whether this was a mistake made by ground repair personnel or an intentional act caused by an astronaut, we need to look into methods to prevent mistakes and intentional acts of sabotage from compromising the hull integrity of the large ship. The actions of one man or woman cannot be allowed to endanger everyone else.
We're going to need a brig and security detail to deal with fights and insanity. If you don't want guns, then we're going to need something rather medieval like a cat-o-nine-tails, in case someone has a kitchen knife and won't put it down. Whether people find it distasteful or not, there will have to be some measure of discipline and capital punishment for murder. A fledgling colony can't afford to devote precious labor / energy / material resources to murderers. That sounds a bit harsh, because it is, but it's also the truth.
People are being transported to Mars to create a second branch of human civilization. Vacations can be taken aboard any cruise ship here on Earth for a lot less money. Living and working in space is a very serious business. Nature will deal with any mistakes, as well as any lapses in judgement, every bit as harshly as any form of military discipline. Everyone else is not obligated to suffer or be killed because one of their fellow colonists cannot or will not behave in a reasonably civilized manner.
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Thanks for interesting and helpful additions to this topic by GW Johnson, RobertDyck and kbd512!
It seems to me reasonable to consider scrubbing passengers before they are accepted for a flight that would impose this level of stress on 1060 human beings.
The idea of accepting anyone who can come up with the ticket price seems unwise to me.
The folks who are being accepted for test runs in isolated Mars or space simulations are carefully evaluated ahead of time.
It will be many years before anyone can get onto a Mars bound spacecraft the way we humans routinely pack ourselves into aircraft, ferries or other transportation equipment for short trips.
A reasonable test is to pack the proposed crew and passenger set into a land based simulator. The simulator would be a small building that is 19 meters wide, 4 meters tall, and 238 meters long. All supplies would be delivered from the outside, and all waste products would be delivered to the outside, and there would be unlimited communication with the outside world via the Internet. The purpose of the exercise is to enable the passengers and crew to reassure themselves that this is something they ** really ** want to do. The length of the simulation could be less that 8 months, but it seems to me a ** real ** test would last for as long as the trip lasts.
kbd512 has reminded us that a human being might crack under the conditions RobertDyck has proposed. There isn't going to be ** any ** space in that tiny volume for an extended confinement by a person who has become psychotic.
It would seem to me reasonable to spend whatever it takes to insure the folks who are going to put themselves through this grueling exercise can come out intact on the other side.
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I remember the news story about leak through a hole. I never did hear at the time where it was, or even how it was fixed. At that same time, there were also stories floating about that concerned other sabotage found in some other Soyuz items, but I never heard much, other than that. My point is not to read too much into speculations from the internet. Most of the crap I see from "out there" is just that: crap.
Even so, it does bring up a good point. Given that psychological problems will crop up, the risk of an insane person doing damage to the ship (or space station, or anything else) is high. There is no way around that, other than to design things in a way that limits access to the pressure shell. And yet, you must have rapid access to that same pressure shell to repair any leaks. Serious conflict there.
GW
GW Johnson
McGregor, Texas
"There is nothing as expensive as a dead crew, especially one dead from a bad management decision"
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I think I would rather have monitoring systems that perhaps "listen" for vibrations indicating someone is using a drill on the hull, exercising the two-man rule when working on life support equipment, the same as the US Navy has for highly classified information, and ensure that poisons are not introduced into the food supply. Few things are more corrosive to mutual trust than the actions of insane people, because for the vast majority, doing this stuff would never occur to them. Having multiple galleys serving different meals is one way of countering the poisoning problem, even if it's a simple mistake in food preparation. The life support equipment is sensitive enough that it must be protected. The communications suite should send out "heartbeat" messages that also contain the status of the ship, position, life support equipment status, and consumables status without further human interaction. A "heartbeat ping" was the critical missing link to uncovering what happened to flight MH370.
We need at least 2 bridge decks, whereby one crew is double-checking the other's navigational info, so both bridges can control ship's propulsion, attitude, navigation, and communications systems. This is no different than having a cockpit with a pilot and co-pilot, except that we have redundant function. Each bridge watch will be 8 hours. We need a Pilot, Navigator, Engineer, and Communicator. During critical maneuvers, both bridges will be fully staffed, with the Captain on one bridge and the XO on the other. All hands briefings will be conducted before critical maneuvers. The entire ship's company will be fully suited and seated in the central hub section, the strongest part of the ship, after the habitation rings have spun down. Apart from reducing the possibility of injury, this de-facto "roll call" will let everyone know that it's "game time", and they need to be ready to act quickly if something goes wrong. I also assume these ships will operate in convoys, with each successive ship following the leader into and out of gravity wells. To reduce the possibility of collision, they will maintain proper spacing at all times.
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For kbd512 re #8
This post looks just as good (or perhaps even better in the second reading)...
I logged in just now to report on an upcoming PBS special on NASA's study ahead of long duration missions...
PBS - Monday, May 6 at 10 pm
Space: The Longest Goodbye
NASA psychologists prepare astronauts for the extreme isolation required by a Mars mission, as the crew grapples with the tension between their dream of reaching new frontiers and the basic human need to stay connected to home.
The above was contributed by a relative.
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I would suggest the creation of an Artificial Reality Room that makes it feel like a nature cycle, they would be in a room at breakfast, afternoon, evening and night, all artificially made but to give them rhythms. The crew would not have to stay in the room just visit it for a moment to give themselves a sense of cycles like playing a song on the radio before you drive to work. They would experience a room that will have different colors, reds, yellows, greens, blues, purples and natural sounds of birds or fish splashing. The Room would follow a Mars 24 and a half hour Mars day cycle but maybe also have an upload onto a monitor or camera to street feeds on Earth with Earth's different time zone cycle to stay in touch for example Natural Nature scenes and city life NewYork, Sydney, Buenos Aires, Tokyo, Rome, they feeds can be 24 hr delayed and one day old it should not matter so much . Plus maybe feeds from National Parks on Earth, Yellowstone National Park, Vatnajokull, Iceland, Tanzania's Serengeti National Park, Kakadu Australia, maybe you could also include old ruins of buildings not just animals in Mount Olympus National Park in Greece, Seoraksan National Park in South Korea I am not sure about something bad happening an 'event' a mass shooting or terrorist event or Volcano natural tragedy, would you show a live-feed without censorship if something happens how would you inform the crew, that is an area up to debate maybe. They might also naturally look outside at the stars in space to experience the real journey. In the ISS a lot of people have been spending relaxation time but also science time in the Cupola the observatory module of the International Space Station (ISS)from the Italian word cupola, which means "dome" it seven windows allow Astronauts to look out but are used to conduct experiments.
Large Cruise ships on Earth have designated smoking and drinking areas, Alcohol is generally disallowed in spaceflight but it has happened. Apollo 11 astronaut Buzz Aldrin drank some wine when he took communion while on the Moon, Cosmonaut Alexander Poleshchuk said bottles of cognac would be hidden behind panels on Mir.
'Alcohol in space? Da!'
https://archive.fo/wuBnH
NBC News space analyst James Oberg sends along this photographic footnote:
"A delicious backstory to this article is how the lead photo of the medicinal cognac party ever reached the public. When Jerry Linenger returned from Mir in mid-1997, his photographs were processed into the NASA internal archive system, and I became aware of the scene (one of two shots) by means I still need to protect. But when I formally requested a copy for publication, from the NASA Public Affairs Office, the request was denied — reportedly on direct orders from astronaut Frank Culbertson, then the head of NASA's Shuttle-Mir office while angling for a future spaceflight of his own (which he did get, on ISS, in 2001). But my subsequent formal request via the Freedom of Information Act eventually shook the photos free — only because I was able to cite the exact photo ID numbers [if I hadn't originally known the photos existed, I doubt they'd ever have been released]. I used the photo in my 2002 book "Star-Crossed Orbits," and provided this particular image to MSNBC as well. I'm not sure the photo is even yet available to the general public on NASA's website — can anybody check?"
It is possible there will be Rules and Laws, no smoking or drinking on Mars colonies will be banned of certain behavior just as it has been banned on airplanes, including electronic cigarettes, is prohibited globally due to strict health and safety regulations.
Some Navy and peoples want to ban all types of Vape or Smoking, the British or French for example Royal Navy is implementing a 'tobacco-free' policy, with the aim of the British military being smoke-free.
'Spirit Airlines passenger banned for life after vaping on flight'
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eG8yz8taP3g
Downtime photo from the 1960s however the photo seems to show an addiction to Cigarettes a behavior which is less culturally acceptable today.
Recreation
https://www.coolantarctica.com/Bases/OA … 93-med.php
Philip K Swartz - 1960-61 - South Pole Station - Antarcticans Database Project
'Astronauts Play Baseball on Space Station'
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cq9S8I9KsDc
Concordia Research Station
an ESA vid
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SOVjs_zNNwc
Cold, dark, remote, Antarctica is as close to space as you can get on Earth. Humans conduct research in Antarctic bases on a wide range of topics, from climate studies and astronomy to glaciology and human physiology and psychology.
The winter-over syndrome a condition occurring in individuals who "winter-over" throughout the Antarctic (or Arctic) winter, which can last seven to eight months
https://web.archive.org/web/20120623024 … he_Ice.pdf
video describes the experiences
12 people nine months and isolated
Research around the winter-over syndrome starts in 1950s, there is no set of exclusive indicators that can typically reveal a diagnosis of the same. "Our analyses of the human experience in Antarctica suggest that there are few, if any, traits that serve as useful predictors of performance during the austral winter," Palinkas wrote in a paper called "The Psychology of Antarctic Research." Some of the symptoms included depression, insomnia, anger or irritability, feelings of hostility towards those around you, diminished cognitive performance including difficulty in concentration and memory, absentmindedness, and the occurrence of mild hypnotic states known as 'long-eye' or the 'Antarctic stare'. Bill Spindler, documenting his extensive research attributes the effects of sensory deprivation, isolation, and maybe even the effect of extreme cold on the thyroid gland which can cause memory loss, sleepiness or sluggishness.
http://www.southpolestation.com/
people might attend a 'garden' maybe not for food production but for no other reason than well being
https://pic8.co/sh/IWwdU0.jpeg
https://www.imgbly.com/ib/w5Tc8k26Mq.jpeg
NASA has evaluations and there is NASA’s Human Research Program (HRP) some other space agency compare experience within the Naval Forces or Science Research Stations at the South Pole.
Phone switched on and Computer Games disturbing the kids of today?
'Effects of light on human circadian rhythms, sleep and mood'
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6751071/
In the timeframe of human evolution, it is a rather recent development that light can be available during all times of day through artificial light. Artificial light allows for illuminating indoor and outdoor spaces. It comes in many forms, e.g. incandescent, fluorescent, or light-emitting diode (LED) lighting. While light generated by these technologies may all appear “white”, the underlying spectra are rather different. The reason why many different types of spectra might have the same appearance lies in the retina. Critically, different spectra, even if they create the same visual impression, may vary in their chronobiological effects on the circadian clock.
‘Space: The Longest Goodbye’ explores astronauts’ mental health
https://www.sciencenews.org/article/spa … ocumentary
The documentary examines psychologists’ role in missions to the moon and Mars
Space: The Longest Goodbye, a documentary directed by Ido Mizrahy, follows the journey of mentally preparing astronauts for such an unprecedented trip and reflects on the history of the NASA psychological unit.
How NASA psychologists are developing cutting-edge techniques to treat the mental toll of space travel
https://www.fastcompany.com/91049840/ho … ace-travel
NASA has already applied some of its findings to Earthbound problems, like the 2010 rescue of the trapped Chilean miners. In that situation, it connected miners with their families through live AV feeds and by matching their Circadian cycles to keep them calm until rescue.
Mental Health in Space: Ensuring Astronaut Wellbeing on Long Missions
https://www.evona.com/blog/mental-health-in-space/
Subsurface Confinement: Evidence from Submariners of the Benefits of Mindfulness
https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/10.117 … 0021972469
Health Conditions Among Navy Submariners at the End of Active Duty; A Retrospective Cohort Study
https://academic.oup.com/milmed/article … 47/6548015
Also one thing to note is use of Drink and Drugs, some say it should be allowed but perhaps that is a big mistake. Look at Military Reports or Articles on Substance Abuse in the Navy
U.S. Navy Cracking Down on Sailors’ Drinking, Drug Use
https://drugfree.org/drug-and-alcohol-n … -drug-use/
The U.S. Navy has announced that it is increasing the pace of drug tests and implementing other measures to deter illicit drug use and binge drinking, the San Diego Union-Tribune reported Aug. 26.
Random testing of Navy personnel will be increased 50 percent, and all sailors who move to new postings will be subjected to drug tests within 72 hours of reporting for duty. Those who test positive for illicit drugs will be automatically discharged, as will sailors with a second drunk-driving offense.
More Navy commands also will be required to appoint a senior officer to head their alcohol and other drug control efforts, including establishing treatment and prevention programs.
maybe long after successful colonies have been established people might have concerts to party and have some sort of free-ish city with booze or Gambling, Drinking Town....but it seems to much of an added risk to promote any of this irresponsible culture.
at the South Pole, you can have examples of where Cannabis or 'weed' or vodka helped create a social problem and even crime
Stages of Change in Mood and Behavior During a Winter in Antarctica
https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/10.117 … 0021972469
perhaps comparison to Covid lockdowns and Corona virus experiences can be made
Asia - Living inside Concrete Salaryman Caves
Only 57% of Japanese feel 'happy,' 3rd lowest rate among 30 countries: survey
https://mainichi.jp/english/articles/20 … na/010000c
Space tourists, celebrity and social cultural issues what could go wrong?
It became known as a world issue when an online hidden camera candid camera nuisance pranked Celebrity Logan Paul uploaded a vlog to his YouTube channel depicting the recently deceased corpse of a man who had died by hanging himself in Aokigahara at the base of Mount Fuji in Japan, known as the "suicide forest" the social media video suddenly went viral gained 6.3 million views within 24 hours of being uploaded. Logan Paul said as an excuse for his dumb acts that he has long-term brain damage, which he sustained from playing high school football. He stated that Daniel Amen, the doctor who diagnosed him, says it affects his ability to have empathy and a human connection with others although some wonder if this is part of his joking act. When filming a video for his media Vine channel in 2014, Paul attempted a stunt reality comedy TV series prank event during which he landed on a chair and damaged his right testicle. He is known for stupidity and was also criticized for other misbehavior he was captured taking part in during the Japan trip, including climbing onto a worker's moving forklift, there was an online frenzy and social media companies almost ganged up and almost banned him, YouTube issued a statement via Twitter condemning Paul's video: "It's taken us a long time to respond, but we've been listening to everything" Metro-Goldwyn-Mayer mostly bought and owned by Sony postponed the release of the film Valley Girl, featuring Paul, following the controversies, he has joined World Wrestling Entertainment (WWE) events, his younger brother Jake Paul has since become a sports star, they have been involved in further 'insensitive' controversies
In Japan, suicide is considered a major social issue, the country had the seventh highest suicide rate in the OECD
'Why does Japan have such a high suicide rate?'
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-33362387
"Isolation is the number one precursor for depression and suicide," says Wataru Nishida, a psychologist at Tokyo's Temple University.
"Now it's more and more common to read stories about old people dying alone in their apartments," he says. "They are being neglected. Kids used to take care of their parents in old age in Japan, but not any more."
People often cite Japan's long tradition of "honourable suicide" as a reason for the high rate here.
They point to the Samurai practice of committing "seppuku" or to the young "kamikaze" pilots of 1945, to show there are distinct cultural reasons why Japanese are more likely to take their own lives.
To an extent Mr Nishida agrees.
Human behavior and performance in deep space exploration: next challenges and research gaps
https://www.nature.com/articles/s41526-023-00270-7
Psycho-sociological issues, Cognition and performance
https://www.esa.int/Enabling_Support/Pr … erformance
How astronauts take care of their mental health in space
https://www.asc-csa.gc.ca/eng/youth-edu … -space.asp
What happens finished station missions?
The project of the International Space Station (ISS) is an example of multiple countries operating in space, first module launched in 1998.it has functioned very well mostly without any event and has been continuously occupied since November 2000 and 240+ individuals have been to the ISS from multiple nations including 'Private Space Flight' missions, the International Space Station will perhaps deorbit sometime in the 2030s
Pacific Ocean’s "spacecraft cemetery.
The plan is to bring the ISS down in a controlled fashion over the South Pacific Oceanic Uninhabited Area, a region around Point Nemo formally known as "the oceanic pole of inaccessibility."
https://www.space.com/spacecraft-deorbi … l-concerns
This remote sea setting is about 1,450 nautical miles (2,685 kilometers) from the nearest piece of dry land. The closest terra firm is Ducie Island, part of the Pitcairn Islands, to the north; Motu Nui, one of the Easter Islands, to the northeast; and Maher Island, part of Antarctica, to the south.
area is so remote that—as with any location more than 400 kilometres (250 mi) from an inhabited area—sometimes the closest human beings are astronauts aboard the International Space Station when it passes overhead
What if stations were turned into museum ships like a tour around the Saturn-V rocket or that of the United States military and other Navy?
also a Canadian site this time in French language
'Santé mentale des astronautes : le « Design Thinking » à la rescousse'
https://www.cscience.ca/sante-mentale-d … rescousse/
German language article
https://www.spiegel.de/wissenschaft/wel … 451d99e164
The design secrets Nasa's using to keep astronauts happy in space
https://www.wired.com/story/space-trave … interiors/
Big windows, fresh fruit and regular phone calls home help manage the mental health of astronauts on the International Space Station. But missions to Mars on beyond will require a whole new approach to how spaceships are designed
Last edited by Mars_B4_Moon (2024-05-26 10:04:41)
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