Large scale colonization ship

tahanson43206 · 2023-07-08 09:49:56

This is for RobertDyck but the discussion would be better in Housekeeping .... I am looking into whether the Amazon Gift Register service might be a good fit for forum members to help to pay for a modern heat tolerant computer for SpaceNut. I've never used this feature, and since you need a book about Blender, please investigate to see if you can set up a Gift Registry to pay for a Blender book of your choosing, and then post the link here so members can contribute to the fund.

I'm interested in seeing how this feature works, and a book is likely to be an affordable test article.

(th)

RobertDyck · 2023-07-08 09:58:51

I worked for the Credit Union Central of Alberta in Calgary in 1997. That software was used by all credit unions in that province. In 1998/'99 I worked for the City of Winnipeg department of social services. The province was absorbing the department, I was there to replace senior system analysts who transferred to another department. Work was primarily in PL/1 but included software to direct deposit into bank accounts. In 1999/2000 I worked for Miami-Dade County, maintaining software for one tax. It produced tax bills and documents to put a lien on properties that hadn't paid their taxes. So I've worked with secure software before.

tahanson43206 · 2023-07-08 10:17:34

For RobertDyck ...

Thanks for the confirmation of your (interesting to me for sure) work experience. I am intrigued at the notion that anyone put PL/1 into service in a commercial enterprise. I was in college when that came out, and dabbled in it a bit. It had a very forward looking aura. It is possible some ideas from that language were incorporated into later more successful ones.

I just set up a test of the gift feature on Amazon. I created a link to a wish list item, and sent the link to an email account other than the one I use for access to Amazon. I'll be interested to see what happens when I open the link.

What I'm hoping for is an option to make a contribution to the wish list item, instead of an offer to pay the entire bill.

***
In thinking about your experience as reported above, it occurs to me that you were on site. How would you support such an application if you were working remotely?

That may be the hang up with the COBOL opportunity. The managers of that application may be reluctant to employ a remote worker, if the application is indeed physically secured.

It would (or at least might) go a long way to show some sympathy for the customer in this situation.

A consultant who is thinking only of himself would be the norm.

A consultant who simulates caring about the customer would be a rarity.

(th)

RobertDyck · 2023-07-08 10:56:37

In the 1990s getting a work visa was not as easy as it was supposed to be. And since 9/11 it's more difficult. Getting a work visa is not something I can do myself. A US employer must sponsor me for a work visa. Most US employers don't even want to learn the process required. Working remotely from here avoids that problem. Add to that issues involved with moving and living expenses at the new city.

When I worked for Miami-Dade County, they had the FBI perform a security check to give me reliability security clearance. That's the lowest level of government security clearance, but I had it. Furthermore, when I bid on the NASA contract, I had ITAR clearance. That was required because the Space Shuttle was considered a ballistic missile. Having documentation for Shuttle in my home office required ITAR clearance. So security clearance isn't an issue, but many US employers don't want to bother.

tahanson43206 · 2023-07-28 08:29:44

It is time to put this topic back into motion. It has been on an extended stay in dry dock, but it is ready (or at least ** I ** am ready) for it to resume progress toward Real Universe actualization.

The current need is for 3D Visualization. There are plenty of folks in this world who can perform 3D Visualization at a professional level, and countless more who can perform at a journeyman enthusiast level. In order to find such folks, and enlist them to help, it is necessary to create a framework they can help to extend.

I'd like to see a fully developed 3D model in July of 2024.

(th)

RobertDyck · 2023-08-06 10:58:25

I found someone local who claims to be able to use Blender. I met him before through a sci-fi club. Reconnected at birthday BBQ of a mutual friend. Our first meeting for the large ship was... Ok. He's socialist, I'm libertarian but moderate. Will he do it? We'll see.

tahanson43206 · 2023-08-06 14:03:42

For RobertDyck .... the NewMars Zoom is scheduled for this evening ...

Would your friend be interested in attending?

usual time, usual place ... Post #1 of the Zoom topic has been enhanced to include a one-click computer connection, as well as numerous cell-phone connection options.

I would like to see Large Ship move out of dry dock and back into active development.

(th)

tahanson43206 · 2023-08-07 12:27:47

For RoBertDyck ... We are not limited to weekly meetings ... If you would like to set up a conference with your friend, to discuss how the two of you might collaborate on a Blender project, I'd be happy to consider any time that the two of you might prefer.

it seems to me that an "Open Source" philosophy for your vision would increase chances of success in the Real Universe.

Once you have a project started, there is a very large Blender community that would surely include at least a few people (besides me) who would want to participate in building parts of a complex system such as this one.

You have already defined the basic parameters for everyone to follow, so you can encourage experimentation that follows your basic rules ...

Of the top of my head, these are:

1) radius
2) width of track
3) rotation rate of 3 RPM
4) 3-5-8 Atmosphere ... easy to remember. Any child can remember it. Vital to insure people with poor memory have a chance of remembering it.

The upper limit of your vision is 1060 people, but there is no need for you to insist that models built to your specifications reach that limit.

The idea that I am promoting is to encourage creation of models that can be reviewed by potential funders. If a model catches the eye of a multi-billionaire, and it carries 100 people, let that one fly, and model your higher capacity versions on success.

(th)

tahanson43206 · 2023-08-10 07:15:10

For RobertDyck ...

In another topic, Mars_B4_Moon found a paper about converting an asteroid to make a toroidal space habitat.

In opening the paper, I found this:

Credit: Self produced with Blender using Background Milky Way:
ESO/Serge Brunier [Brunier 2009] [CC BY-4.0]; Doug Ellison model [Ellison 2018] [CC BY-4.0] modified/rescaled to appropriate Atira and
Moon dimensions
Figure 1-1 – Large Rotating Space Station

While the asteroid project is a larger scale design than your 1000 passenger vessel, the principles of the design would seem likely to be similar.

Mr. Jensen is limited by the materials available in the asteroid, which may be why there is little use of iron.

About 7,960,000 results (0.38 seconds)
S-type asteroid - Wikipedia
S-type asteroids are asteroids with a spectral type that is indicative of a siliceous (i.e. stony) mineralogical composition, hence the name. They have relatively high density. Approximately 17% of asteroids are of this type, making it the second-most common after the carbonaceous C-type.
S-type asteroid - Wikipedia
Wikipedia
https://en.wikipedia.org › wiki › S-type_asteroid

The purpose of this post is to (at least attempt to) draw your attention to a blender model that might have some similarities to your project.

You can see the paper at:
https://arxiv.org/ftp/arxiv/papers/2302/2302.12353.pdf

(th)

RobertDyck · 2023-08-10 09:20:15

Chris Hlady is balking about ship size. Started giving him precise dimensions. But also gave size of the Enterprise from Star Trek TOS as comparison.

::Edit:: Would it be petty for me to criticize designs of the Enterprise? These floor plans are by Franz Joseph, not Gene Roddenberry. I feel secondary hull should have more space for navigational deflector, much larger engineering (main reactor for warp engine), larger cargo holds, and delete the swimming pool and bowling alley. kbd512 could tell us the need for a gym on a military vessel, but it's there.

tahanson43206 · 2023-08-10 10:38:22

For RobertDyck ...

A Blender expert may not (and probably does not) have a background such as yours.

Your objective is the design. If the issue is size, just find out what your friend considers a reasonable size and go with that.

if you can persuade your friend to design for an animal test environment, then you would end up with something the two of you can publish, and you will have a set of drawings you can stretch out to your desired proportions. The key here is to get ** something ** on the road!

If your friend has no clue about artificial gravity, then just go with the flow, and see what you get.

You might be able to sell whatever he designs, but in any case you can take the design and stretch it for other applications.

If you find yourself trying to impose constraints on others, you might miss out on their creativity if left unchecked.

I think that Startrek is an interesting comparison, but there are ** real ** rotating habitat designs that are a lot closer to reality.

Even the 2001 space station is a better model than the Enterprise, because it used artificial (rotational) gravity.

(th)

tahanson43206 · 2023-08-10 10:43:11

For RobertDyck ....

We've discussed an Earth located model before ....

At the very least, if you have an empty field large enough for an outline of the Large Ship, then you can set little pegs in the ground to show the dimensions of the habitat ring. That might add a bit of realism to the exercise. I think you will discover that your vision of packing 1060 people into that little volume is overly ambitious. I've created models for you to study, earlier in this topic. They clearly show what a fully populated ring would look like. You can show those to your friend to help translate abstract concepts into 3D plans.

(th)

RobertDyck · 2023-08-10 11:20:37

Deadline for abstract 31st of this month.

tahanson43206 · 2023-08-10 11:29:12

For our members, and for our readers ... The somewhat cryptic post #1338 by RobertDyck is about the upcoming Mars Society convention:

Call for Abstracts
April 13, 2023
Arizona, Commercial Space, Education, Global conference, Humans To Mars, JPL, Mars 2023, Mars Exploration, NASA, Science, Space Advocacy, Space Exploration, Spaceflight, STEM, Technology, The Mars Society, Virtual Event
News & Announcements
Presentations for the 26th Annual International Mars Society Convention, set for Thursday-Sunday, October 5-8, 2023 at Arizona State University in Tempe, are invited.
This year’s four-day global forum will deal with all matters associated with the exploration and settlement of the Red Planet, including science, technology, engineering, politics, public policy & advocacy, STEM education, economics, etc.
Abstracts between 150-300 words can be uploaded on our Mars Society convention web site at: abstracts.marssociety.org. Please note that the deadline for submitting abstracts for consideration is Thursday, August 31, 5:00 pm MT.
Additional details about the 2023 International Mars Society Convention, including online registration, volunteer and sponsorship opportunities, and hotel recommendations will be posted on the convention web site in the coming days and weeks. If you have any questions, please contact: convention-staff@marssociety.org.
Related News & Announcements

(th)

RobertDyck · 2023-08-10 21:15:43

tahanson43206, you are arguing something completely different. His model shows the ring, and a two story house beside it. This ship is HUGE! I have tried to warn those who listen that the ship is absolutely gigantic compared to an Apollo space capsule are any spacecraft, but tiny and cramped compared to a Caribbean cruise ship.

As an alternative, this is a cabin of SpaceX Starship. That will take just as long to reach Mars, and Elon intends 100 passengers per trip. This is not official from SpaceX, but a rendering of the interior by fans based on descriptions of what Elon said the ship will be, photographs of the outside, and official SpaceX renderings of the inside of the forward section with the big window.
SpaceX%2BStarship%2Binterior%2Bconcept%2Bby%2BDeepSpaceCourier%2B-%2B50%2BSleeping%2Bcabins.jpg

More here: Animation of SpaceX Starship interior concept by DeepSpaceCourier

tahanson43206 · 2023-08-11 06:15:27

For RobertDyck re resuming work ....

The dimensions you have chosen are set in stone....

They were published in the very earliest posts of this topic.

Updated math with more precision. Mars acceleration for the ship, so 38.0% that of Earth gravity. Radius 37.76 metres from centre of rotation to surface of the floor, 3 RPM. One deck. Circumference 237.25 metres. Ring width 19 metres. This allows 2 isles for cabins, corridors 1.5 metres wide, outside cabins have a window, inside cabins do not. Standard cabin size 4x2.4 metres.

I would like to suggest you lay out the dimensions of the ring on the ground so you can walk it with anyone who might be interested.

The 3D Model will help to create imagery, but the physical dimensions can be understood by simply tapping pegs into the ground, and walking the perimeter.

Then pack 1000 people into that tiny space. There are more than 1000 people in Canada, so you might be able to find folks willing to participate in an exercise.

I think you have a good idea and I've been a supporter from the beginning, and I remain so today.

If you find someone to help with imagery, the essential components are the structural elements. The number of human beings who are selected to fill the volume is completely arbitrary, and based solely upon funder discretion and ability. If you find a Saudi Prince who wants to fly 100 people and is willing to pay for the vessel, then go with the opportunity. You can always redesign later to add more people, after you have some experience with 100.

Ground Stake Large Ship Exercise:

SearchTerm:GroundStake layout for Large Ship ring outline

Needed hardware:
1) ground space large enough to hold cross section of habitat ring (80 meters square)
2) Rope 40 meters long for radius measure
3) Stakes with cloth ties for visibility - the more the better

Procedure:
1) Find a point roughtly in the center of the open area
2) Set Center of Gravity/Rotation stake
3) Stretch rope 38 meters away from center stake and set floor stake
4) Advance one meter (*) along circumference and set floor stake
5) Continue until stakes are exhausted.

(*) Distance to advance is circumference divided by number of stakes available.

(th)

RobertDyck · 2023-08-11 14:13:28

tahanson43206, I have said if you demand as much space per passenger as a modern Caribbean cruise ship, then nothing will get built. This ship is designed to be practical. As it is, it's HUGE!

Image of a modern cruise ship vs Titanic. The Titanic was the largest ship ever to sail when it was launched. The modern ship is Royal Caribbean Symphony of the Seas.

Titanic: 104 ft tall (keel to top of radio mast), 92 ft wide (beam), 883 ft long.
Symphony OTS: 230 ft high (keel to top of smoke stack), 137 ft wide (beam), 1,184 ft long.
Titanic capacity (Wikipedia): Passengers: 2,453, crew: 874. Total: 3,327 (or 3,547 according to other sources)
Symphony OTS capacity: 5,518 passengers at double occupancy, 6,680 passengers maximum. Crew 2,200

I have cited the SS City of New York (1888) because passenger capacity was similar to our ship. Beam 63 ft (19 m), Length 560 ft (170 m)
capacity: 1,740 passengers, Crew 362 Officers and crew

The SS City of New York was smaller than the other two, but I argue still too large for a space ship.

Library:

Bridge:

Main Saloon (dining room):

tahanson43206 · 2023-08-11 14:56:23

For RobertDyck!

It is good to see the historical examples you have provided earlier in your topic. There are (hopefully) new forum readers who will find the historical information useful.

In contrast to new readers, I am expecting you to take concrete (or in this case, turf) steps to show that you understand the Real Universe nature of your vision.

The vision exists inside your head, and versions of it exist in the minds of those who have come into contact with your work over recent years.

A simple tool kit to help folks understand the dimensions of the habitat can be constructed for a few monetary units (no matter what currency is used)

I'd like for you to show your friend with the Blender skills exactly what the dimensions of the ring habitat are, by laying them out on a grassy field (if such exist in Canada at this point). I would be willing to duplicate the effort locally. The exercise will help you (and others) to gain a better understanding of what is going to be required to realize this vision.

(th)

RobertDyck · 2023-08-11 15:14:21

No, I'm not going to pace-out outlines in turf. One of the reasons for completing the Blender computer graphic model is to import into Unreal Engine. That's a gaming engine, the original game was a first-person shooter. The engine has been used for various games, but the point is it allows you to immerse yourself into a virtual environment, move around and interact.

SpaceX Starship is absolutely huge compared to an Apollo capsule. My ship is orders of magnitude larger yet. Let's manage expectations.
YouTube video tour of passenger Starship, taken from the website I linked earlier: Inside SpaceX Starship - unofficial interior concept

My ship will include 3 observation decks. One of those observation decks will be decompressed to Mars surface pressure, and with Mars atmospheric gas mix. So passengers can practice using a spacesuit. The other 2 are accessible either by elevator, or staircase from the main deck. All observation decks will have transparent walls and transparent ceiling. Full width of the 19 metre wide ring. The transparent ceiling will allow passengers to see the ship, since it's the inner surface of the ring. Basically a promenade deck. Or equivalent to viewing gallery on Starship.

tahanson43206 · 2023-08-11 17:27:38

For RobertDyck .... I am looking forward to seeing the fruits of your 3D visualization efforts, and helping where I can.

When you get your full scale visualization running, assuming it is sized correctly, you will discover what I've been trying to help you to understand for a couple of years now .....

The next Zoom meeting is this Sunday evening at midnight UTC ... please encourage your friend to join it.

The Sunday evening Zoom sessions have proven a great place for socializing. I am hoping they will become recognized as a great place to coordinate actual work efforts.

(th)

RobertDyck · 2023-08-11 18:35:36

Tom, I've been saying for as long as you that the ship will be packed. It won't be as spaceous as a modern Caribbean cruise ship. But will be more spaceous than any other spacecraft. Space has cramped quarters, but outside on the surface of Mars in a spacesuit you'll be amazed how much space you have to yourself.

tahanson43206 · 2023-08-11 19:33:54

For RobertDyck re #1348

The argument over passengers only makes sense after the ship is build and flying.

I'm looking for weekly progress toward Real Universe achievement. a 3D model is a good start. 3D Animation is a good follow on.

In our conversations last year we discovered a huge gap in knowledge of construction of a large vessel in orbit. That huge gap needs to be addressed.

There's plenty of work to do, and we need more than two people talking about it.

(th)

SpaceNut · 2023-08-11 20:34:24

graphical designs of archeture for a simulation of walking through a ship
Assignment: Design a Spaceship
of course floor plans examples are available in many areas to make use of for a virtual walk through. This is being done for real estate.
Explore the business benefits of 3D tours.

How to Make a Virtual Tour for Real Estate

A Step-by-Step Guide to Creating a Virtual Home Tour

RobertDyck · 2023-08-12 09:37:46

Tom aka tahanson43206,
Your encouragement is appreciated, but you are not the manager. You cannot set a schedule. A lot of this requires hiring a team of experts. Although volunteers can do a lot, one problem with volunteers is some of them think they can take over the project. That results in chaos, a lot of time wasted getting the team back on track. Another issue is a lot of development requires equipment and supplies, and that costs money.

Starting a corporate empire to earn the billions necessary to build this is not going to be easy. Brian aka kbd512 suggested seeking funding to directly finance this project. That is the most difficult.

Convincing investors that the project can money by charging ticket prices so high that passengers must liquidate their entire life saving? Passengers must sell a nice suburban house that has no mortgage, sell their car(s), sell everything they cannot carry with them, liquidate their retirement savings, liquidate their life insurance, all for a standard cabin 4m x 2.4m, large enough for husband and wife and 4 children if they all sleep in bunks? A family with 2 children could remove one bunk bed (upper and lower bunks) for room to store luggage and one chair. One pair of bunks can be pushed together to form a queen-size bed. But that's all. The family will start over on Mars. That's what this is. Mars One from that scam artist from the Netherlands had no hope of success but did demonstrate the size of the market. It is viable, but getting financing directly is most difficult. For one thing investors would think I'm trying to scam them the same as that Dutch guy.

Starting a multi-billion dollar corporate empire to finance this will not be easy. But it's a lot easier to get financing to build houses that are 100% energy independent will be a lot easier. I can buy the windmills, geothermal heat pumps, drill rig to install the heat pumps, and deep cycle batteries. Manifold to mount the solar panels will have to be manufactured but manufacturing technique is well known. The only big thing is developing a new photovoltaic cell. Getting funding to develop a high efficiency photovoltaic cell should not be difficult. Especially considering the application.

Houses like this cannot be retrofit. Houses must have either a saltbox or lean-to roof for sufficient roof surface. The roof must be oriented perfectly south. And pitch must be a little steeper than latitude at which the house is built. That's for northern states like North Dakota, Minnesota, Montana, Wisconsin, etc. Obviously includes Canada and Alaska. Roof pitch equal to latitude produces most energy due to sunlight being perpendicular at noon on the spring and autumn equinox. Steeper pitch produces more power in winter, less in summer. Lower pitch does the reverse. Southern California and Arizona etc need more power in summer for air conditioning, so roof pitch would be slightly lower than latitude. For Winnipeg I'm thinking latitude plus half the axial tilt of the Earth, which would be most efficient half way between spring/autumn equinox and winter solstice. Latitude plus full axial tilt would only be efficient on the winter solstice. All this house orientation and roof pitch means a custom built house. A panel could be mounted above the roof, but the house would still have to be oriented due south.

Many people asked who will buy the power if every house is built this way. This works for houses or low buildings like most schools and shopping malls. It doesn't work for tower buildings such as downtown office towers, apartment or condo towers. Furthermore industry will always need a lot of power. So there will always be a customer.

tahanson43206 · 2023-08-12 10:43:43

For RobertDyck re recent posts in Large Ship topic...

It is good to see your energies flowing once again!

It seems that a bit of poking and prodding has stirred the resting giant!

I await results with interest!

(th)

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#1326 2023-07-08 09:49:56

Re: Large scale colonization ship

#1327 2023-07-08 09:58:51

Re: Large scale colonization ship

#1328 2023-07-08 10:17:34

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#1329 2023-07-08 10:56:37

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#1330 2023-07-28 08:29:44

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#1331 2023-08-06 10:58:25

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#1332 2023-08-06 14:03:42

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#1333 2023-08-07 12:27:47

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#1334 2023-08-10 07:15:10

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#1335 2023-08-10 09:20:15

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#1336 2023-08-10 10:38:22

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#1337 2023-08-10 10:43:11

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#1338 2023-08-10 11:20:37

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#1339 2023-08-10 11:29:12

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#1340 2023-08-10 21:15:43

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#1341 2023-08-11 06:15:27

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#1342 2023-08-11 14:13:28

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#1343 2023-08-11 14:56:23

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#1344 2023-08-11 15:14:21

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#1345 2023-08-11 17:27:38

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#1346 2023-08-11 18:35:36

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#1347 2023-08-11 19:33:54

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#1348 2023-08-11 20:34:24

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#1349 2023-08-12 09:37:46

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#1350 2023-08-12 10:43:43

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