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SpaceNut

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From: New Hampshire

Registered: 2004-07-22

Posts: 29,428

Re: Starship is Go...

All engines are a go as Relive SpaceX Starship's epic 31-engine burn with these photos but that is short as it is designed for 33 Raptors for the BFR stage with the starship to have 6.

Mars_B4_Moon

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Registered: 2006-03-23

Posts: 9,776

Re: Starship is Go...

Flight delay: SpaceX now targeting April for first orbital launch
https://www.yahoo.com/news/flight-delay … 00105.html

Elon Musk says in the first test it only has 50% chance

Already booked for tourism, a Japanese billionaire for circumlunar BFR flight.

Hopefully it all goes well 120 m or 390 ft tall, designed to be the tallest and most powerful launch vehicle ever built, a dry mass of less than 100 t (220,000 lb) Starship's payload volume is about 1,000 m3 (35,000 cu ft) and tiles can withstand temperatures of 1,400 °C (2,600 °F).

perhaps soon to be used in operations at “Moon Base Alpha”

SpaceNut

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From: New Hampshire

Registered: 2004-07-22

Posts: 29,428

Re: Starship is Go...

Coming soon Most powerful rocket could launch on Monday, FAA reveals

In a planning notice published on Tuesday, the FAA named April 10 as the primary expected launch date. It also included April 11 and April 12 as backup launch dates

GW Johnson

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From: McGregor, Texas USA

Registered: 2011-12-04

Posts: 5,789

Website

Re: Starship is Go...

As of today (4-12-23),  they are now targeting late this coming week,  not this week.   It would appear there are two parts of the FAA,  one favorable to the launch.  The actual license is still not in hand,  from the other (not-favorable) part of the FAA,  according to reports I have seen.  Treating regulatory approvals cavalierly in earlier tests seems to have some serious consequences.  I hope NASA is exerting pressure to let them fly soon.  NASA needs the moon landing variant of Starship to make its planned Artemis 3 moon landing.  Nothing else will be available,  and I rather doubt even the Starship variant can fly soon enough to make the intended 2025 date.

GW

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GW Johnson
McGregor,  Texas

"There is nothing as expensive as a dead crew,  especially one dead from a bad management decision"

GW Johnson

Member

From: McGregor, Texas USA

Registered: 2011-12-04

Posts: 5,789

Website

Re: Starship is Go...

Finally,  SpaceX got its license to fly Starship/Superheavy out of Boca Chica from the FAA.  We will see what transpires in the next few days,  most likely.  I hope the test flight goes well.

GW

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GW Johnson
McGregor,  Texas

"There is nothing as expensive as a dead crew,  especially one dead from a bad management decision"

SpaceNut

Administrator

From: New Hampshire

Registered: 2004-07-22

Posts: 29,428

Re: Starship is Go...

It's the first full load of stress for the booster to see if it's going to beer can on the way up. Then to see if it's going to tear off more tiles but is this the suborbital test?

Oldfart1939

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Registered: 2016-11-26

Posts: 2,446

Re: Starship is Go...

Well, the 4-20 Date arrived and Starship flew. Not as great as everyone was hoping, but certainly a success. It accomplished several of the goals for this test flight: (1) Successfully lifted off and cleared the launch tower; (2) accelerated and passed MaxQ, even with several engines out; (reached a safe altitude for the FTS to be employed without without endangering anyone). But the MOST important accomplishment was--IT DIDN'T EXPLODE and wreck the launch complex!!
The "Stage Zero" is "mostly intact," but they really underestimated the destructive effects of the exhaust of 33 raptor engines operating at only 70% power. There were chunks of the Fondag concrete larger than the size of concrete blocks being hurled through the air like they were thrown from a trebuchet! One car was crunched and it was by a block of concrete such as the one I described above.
All these comments said--it was a great success.
AD ASTRA!

Last edited by Oldfart1939 (2023-04-22 11:12:49)

Void

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Registered: 2011-12-29

Posts: 7,773

Re: Starship is Go...

Your attitude is the best OF!

I have these two videos, members may if they wish view.

https://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=Sp … &FORM=VIRE

https://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=Sp … &FORM=VIRE

It looks like they will have to do a flame trench and the deluge, but I don't know if that would protect the launch clamps.  Maybe.

The Rocket assembly is said to have not reached the planed separation altitude as the first stage was apparently dying.  So, they did not test the separation method, it seems.  Not that I can give validation to that method.

As I see it, it would have been good to have an early separation method.  At that point if successful, the 1st stage booster would no longer have to carry the 2nd stage, and might have been able to survive in some fashion.  But perhaps a very dangerous abort.

At that point it might have been possible to land the Starship, after it had burned off enough propellants.  This presumes that the Starship was still healthy.

Aborting either vehicle to a splash in the sea might also be a way to save something.  If crew and passengers, then that.

Both stages when healthy are supposed to be able to hover, unlike Falcon 9, 1st stage, so better outcomes can be possible in some of the failure modes, I think.

Again, OF, your rational assessment is refreshing.

News media are almost always manic depressive about the materials they present, which is against sensible analysis.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2023-04-22 11:08:56)

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Oldfart1939

Member

Registered: 2016-11-26

Posts: 2,446

Re: Starship is Go...

My take on what went wrong.
Engines out: initially only 3, then 6 by flight termination. Cause needs to be determined, but  flying concrete debris is my suspected culprit. Any damage to engine bells or plumbing would result in shutdowns or explosions. There was one bright flash of one outer ring of engines which I suspect was an explosion.
Controlabilty: The engines in the center seemed to lack enough power to keep the asymmetrical thrust being developed by having engines in the outer ring failing to function.

These are all engineering side issues and not problems with the vehicle, per se.

My question is HOW TO LAND on Mars using these engines without wrecking the landing zone?
The Mars landers may also need to have their engines forward, ala the initial Goddard rockets or German "Repulsor" design of Hermann Oberth and von Braun in the 1930's. The designs proposed for the Moon Lander version may be the ultimate answer.

Void

Member

Registered: 2011-12-29

Posts: 7,773

Re: Starship is Go...

Your thinking on dealing with other worlds will need attention.

Here is a supposed update on Elon/SpaceX thinking: https://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=El … &FORM=VIRE

Sounds like they had and have plans for a water and metal protective method, but flew this mission without it.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2023-04-22 19:09:33)

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Oldfart1939

Member

Registered: 2016-11-26

Posts: 2,446

Re: Starship is Go...

IMHO, the height of the launch table should have been about another 20 feet higher and the same angle to the support legs; this would result in a greater distance between them at ground level, as well. A powerful water deluge when combined with a blast deflector at ground level would have certainly moderated or somewhat attenuated the blast of the raptors to the surrounding area.
The launch was still a success, in my book. The only failure was of "Stage Zero," the orbital launch mount. The destruction wrought by the engines was massive, and various YouTube presenters have photographic evidence thereof.

Last edited by Oldfart1939 (2023-04-23 14:37:28)

SpaceNut

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From: New Hampshire

Registered: 2004-07-22

Posts: 29,428

Re: Starship is Go...

Not all are happy with the launch City Annoyed When SpaceX Launch Coats It in Layer of Grime

the massive forces from the takeoff heaved a colossal cloud of dust and debris that traveled for miles ultimately crossing paths with a nearby city of Port Isabel, which at over six miles away. Buildings were shaken, at least one window was shattered, and residents were left stunned.

We saw the camera images of the debris giving the vehicle cosmetic make overs that may or may not be covered.

Oldfart1939

Member

Registered: 2016-11-26

Posts: 2,446

Re: Starship is Go...

Space is hard!
I'm sure Port Isabel is happy to be showered with SpaceX money from the employees business at establishments.
They need to "suck it up" and not complain about the financial impact of SpaceX doing what they do best--build and fly rockets.

tahanson43206

Moderator

Registered: 2018-04-27

Posts: 19,263

Re: Starship is Go...

While noting Post 1713, I think it is reasonable to suppose that SpaceX was attempting to install steel deflector plates in the launch system but ran out of time. I expect the steel plates and a water deluge will be in place when the next vehicle stack is ready for testing.

As a good neighbor, SpaceX might be expected to make good on as much of the unplanned debris distribution as is practical.

My guess is that there are some residents who do not benefit from the presence of a neighbor the size of SpaceX, and the need to put up with the consequences of the presence of this industrial operation is an annoyance.

If a buyout had been offered by SpaceX I would imagine folks near the site would have considered taking up the offer.  If one is offered now there might be takers.

(th)

SpaceNut

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From: New Hampshire

Registered: 2004-07-22

Posts: 29,428

Re: Starship is Go...

This Detailed Map Shows SpaceX Plans For The South Texas Starship Launch Site

Mars_B4_Moon

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Registered: 2006-03-23

Posts: 9,776

Re: Starship is Go...

Fish and Wildlife: SpaceX Starship debris covered 350 acres, no wildlife killed
https://www.spacedaily.com/reports/Fish … d_999.html

Mars_B4_Moon

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Registered: 2006-03-23

Posts: 9,776

Re: Starship is Go...

Nelson expects SpaceX to be ready for next Starship launch within months

https://spacenews.com/nelson-expects-sp … in-months/

SpaceNut

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From: New Hampshire

Registered: 2004-07-22

Posts: 29,428

Re: Starship is Go...

They began to roll out the next booster stage for it.

SpaceNut

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From: New Hampshire

Registered: 2004-07-22

Posts: 29,428

Re: Starship is Go...

Elon Musk's SpaceX Seeks FCC Permission For Second Launch Of Starship

SpaceX’s permit application to the federal agency, the company has asked the FCC to allow it to carry out a second test flight and experimental recovery operation for a period of six months beginning June 15th.

SpaceNut

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From: New Hampshire

Registered: 2004-07-22

Posts: 29,428

Re: Starship is Go...

SpaceX hires former NASA human spaceflight official Kathy Lueders to help with Starship will work out of the company's "Starbase" facility in Texas, reporting directly to SpaceX president and COO Gwynne Shotwell, a key hire for SpaceX as the company aims to make its massive Starship rocket safe to fly people in the coming years

tahanson43206

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Registered: 2018-04-27

Posts: 19,263

Re: Starship is Go...

For SpaceNut re #1720

Thanks for posting the link and note about this important hire!

My guess is that Ms. lueders is ** really ** going to earn her salary!

SpaceX has a track record of success with Falcon 9 and the capsule that slows with an ablative heat shield and lands in water with parachutes.  Starship is in a league literally by itself!

(th)

Void

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Registered: 2011-12-29

Posts: 7,773

Re: Starship is Go...

I guess I want to wake up this topic by Louis.  Too bad Louis is not with us.

https://spacenews.com/spacex-changing-s … xt-launch/
Quote:

SpaceX changing Starship stage separation ahead of next launch
Jeff Foust
June 24, 2023

I did not see anyone else here speak of it, so here it is.

Quote:

“We made sort of a late-breaking change that’s really quite significant to the way that stage separation works,” Musk said, describing the switch to hot staging. “There’s a meaningful payload-to-orbit advantage with hot-staging that is conservatively about a 10% increase.”

I won't want to suggest that I have special powers of understanding for this, but I can understand >10% payload improvement, and also some increased risk in a certain way.  I presume the risk is to be mitigated with technology.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2023-06-25 17:23:05)

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tahanson43206

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Registered: 2018-04-27

Posts: 19,263

Re: Starship is Go...

For Void re #1722

Thanks for finding and showing this update!

The previous concept we discussed here was the idea of rotating the starship stages to achieve an "inertial" separation.  If someone in the membership has a few minutes, please investigate to see what "hot staging" might mean in the context of Starship.

GW Johnson (I'm pretty sure) has described a Soviet staging method that consisted of starting the second stage engines while the first stage was still close. That is a method that seems reasonable if the first stage is to be discarded.  Since SpaceX is planning to re-use the first stage, a change in how hot gases impact the first stage would seem needed.

(th)

SpaceNut

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From: New Hampshire

Registered: 2004-07-22

Posts: 29,428

Re: Starship is Go...

Shutting down most of the first stage engines and firing the second is sort of a typical method for this.

SpaceX changing Starship stage separation ahead of next launch

Sure odds are higher but the engines hot gasses of firing must have protection created so as to keep engines from damage in the wiring controls as they will go back into the compartment until they are venting.

tahanson43206

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Registered: 2018-04-27

Posts: 19,263

Re: Starship is Go...

As a follow up to Void and SpaceNut re link to Spacenews.com article ... both seem to have referenced the same article.

Doing so requires some modifications to the Super Heavy booster. Musk said SpaceX is working on an extension to the top of the booster “that is almost all vents” to allow the exhaust from the upper stage to escape while still attached to the booster. SpaceX will also add shielding to the top of the booster to protect it from the exhaust.

“This is the most risky thing, I think, for the next flight,” he said of the new stage separation technique.

This is the detail I was looking for .... there are going to be vents at the top of the booster to allow second stage exhaust to escape, and there will be a shield of some kind to protect the top of the booster from damage.  The shield will (presumably) add mass, but the vent cutouts will remove some stainless steel.

The article also describes work being done on the water deluge system for the launch stand.

(th)