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#126 2022-10-16 07:23:40

Steve Stewart
Member
From: Kansas (USA)
Registered: 2019-09-21
Posts: 161
Website

Re: Gravity Energy Storage

This is an interesting story about gravity energy storage that aired on NPR (National Public Radio) recently. The article states that the San Diego County Water Authority has a plan to store extra energy from solar and wind power by pumping water uphill. At the top of the page is a "4-minute listen" which aired on the radio.

'Water batteries' could store solar and wind power for when it's needed

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#127 2022-10-16 08:25:56

tahanson43206
Moderator
Registered: 2018-04-27
Posts: 18,134

Re: Gravity Energy Storage

For Steve Steward re Post #126 (and all your posts)

Thanks for returning to add to the flow here in the forum, and particularly this topic.

Your observation about water energy storage is helpful as a reminder to SpaceNut, as he works on his experiment.

I took a quick look at your previous posts, and noted in particular your long piece on plastic recycling at Mars.

I don't have a good sense of your interests, other than the impression you've provided with your previous posts.

If you have an engineering or scientific (or even mathematics) leaning, the project SpaceNut has undertaken might be of interest.

It seems possible that SpaceNut's idea would be most productive, if the amount of material required is taken into account.

A water energy storage system needs a permanent reservoir to be effective, and for our purposes here, I'll call that a "bloated" system, and not meaning any disrespect.

A minimal system might be a water wheel, and that can work where there is a steady flow of water.

If I understand SpaceNut's idea correctly, he is proposing to collect the maximum amount of electrical energy using the minimum amount of material and the least possible flow of water.

Please continue to engage with SpaceNut on this project, if you have time.

(th)

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#128 2022-10-16 09:35:21

SpaceNut
Administrator
From: New Hampshire
Registered: 2004-07-22
Posts: 29,306

Re: Gravity Energy Storage

The power generator is the load on the flow of water in any designed system. In that respect the simple timing scale was to very slope time for the gravity assist in the zipline model that water would get from falling down the slope but in the looped cable design the time will be different as the initial zero on each new amount of water will be higher. It also gives the distance for each second average to design for the flow rate when scaled up. The RPM at the top that the cable loops around can be computed by this distance for each second once its determined. Also, the design of the power generator can also be based on some of this for a desired level of output.

Since I am using an imbalance system the flow rate is less than a direct drive water wheel design. The water wheel is a direct load and as it flows its constantly replaced to keep movement occurring. To accomplish the imbalance and loading does require a reservoir for the water to be drawn from but is less than that of a water wheel to achieve the goal of power creation. Since I only use the pale filled with water 3 times for each completed loop. There is a small overlap of time when the mass moving is 2 pails, but it soon will drop back to 1 as it continues to move down the hill.

Water wheels and turbines in the dam or reservoir as well as the constant flowing stream is why there is no water as its not getting the assist of gravity over the slope as it's just a short fall is a very bloated system of power creation.

edit
In the scale zip line model, the pulley rotation covers 36" approximately in the total 6 sec drop was for the 35 ft covered or
420 "/ 36" = 11 2/3 rotation for the 1/10th scale. Which means 116 rpm will cover 350 ft in 1 minute time if I stay with that size pulley for both ends if it stayed constant at the scale models speed but that may not be the case.

Something else to consider is the top pulley may need to be higher to keep the sag of the line from causing the mass to touch the ground before making it around the end pulley. I had set a 5 ft but it may need to be 10 or 15ft in the air at the top. I may also require a midpoint pulley to keep the sag from causing too much tension in the cable to be required to limit that sag.

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#129 2022-10-16 10:55:22

tahanson43206
Moderator
Registered: 2018-04-27
Posts: 18,134

Re: Gravity Energy Storage

For Steve Steward re Post #126

Please engage with SpaceNut in this mini-project ...

Are you a theoretician .... That is a respectable place to be in the pantheon of NewMars members.  You would be in distinguished company.

Or are you a hands-on practitioner of skills working with materials?

There are very few such folk in NewMars, alas, so if you are you and SpaceNut would be the entire span of membership for the time being.

Do you know anyone you think could help SpaceNut in this little project?

If you do, please refer them to the Recruiting topic.

I'd like to have at least one additional person working on this mini-project.

My hypothesis is that SpaceNut is showing the way to the most efficient, least cost solution for making power from an intermittent or weak water flow, with space constraints.

Do you have drawing or illustration skills, such as shown by Void or RobertDyck?

Those would be helpful in this topic.

SpaceNut excels at finding images that show what he's thinking about.

Void excels at making images that show his concepts.

We can use more assistance along those lines.

(th)

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#130 2022-10-16 11:36:53

SpaceNut
Administrator
From: New Hampshire
Registered: 2004-07-22
Posts: 29,306

Re: Gravity Energy Storage

Just read through Steve Stewart link which is very applicable to the topic.

Perhaps a decade from now, if all goes smoothly, large underground pipes will connect this lake to a new reservoir, a much smaller one, built in a nearby canyon about 1100 feet higher in elevation. When the sun is high in the sky, California's abundant solar power will pump water into that upper reservoir.

It's a way to store the electricity. When the sun goes down and solar power disappears, operators would open a valve and the force of 8 million tons of water, falling back downhill through those same pipes, would drive turbines capable of generating 500 megawatts of electricity for up to eight hours. That's enough to power 130,000 typical homes.

This is another storing of electric by moving water up in altitude for when the sun is no longer shining for later use.

This is what Louis would consider excess energy saving.

For a mars solution it would be converted via electrolysis of water to be burned later. But on earth we can do much more since we know that we can use other forms of storage of energy not just a conversion.

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#131 2022-10-16 12:11:14

tahanson43206
Moderator
Registered: 2018-04-27
Posts: 18,134

Re: Gravity Energy Storage

For SpaceNut re #130

It is fun seeing Steve Stewart back in the mix.  I hope he is inspired to post more frequently.

(th)

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#132 2022-10-16 12:42:03

Calliban
Member
From: Northern England, UK
Registered: 2019-08-18
Posts: 3,572

Re: Gravity Energy Storage

A few low tech magazine links that are relevant to small scale hydro.
https://www.lowtechmagazine.com/2013/08 … power.html
https://www.lowtechmagazine.com/2013/09 … otors.html
https://www.lowtechmagazine.com/2016/03 … works.html

I think the best thing about small scale hydro and pumped storage is that these are systems that people can build for themselves, if they have the right geography.  And power can be entirely mechanical, without any need for electrics.  Which is good for luddites like me, who understand mechanical systems better than electrical systems.

Some 36 cubic metres of water, raised to an average head height of 10m, will store 1kWh of potential energy.  Another option I looked into was vacuum energy storage.  This involves pumping water out of a closed concrete vacuum vessel using a positive displacement pump.  This would work well in situations where you need relatively small amounts of stored energy delivered at high power.  A 0.5 bar vacuum would store 50KJ of energy per cubic metre of vessel.  But that energy can be harnessed at high power.  So it can meet peak loads, like a washing machine spin cycle.  Or maybe the vacuum required to flush a toilet or operate an elevator.

This article describes a low-pressure compressed air energy storage idea.
https://ideas.repec.org/a/eee/renene/v1 … 1-211.html

At 5-bar(g), the system would store about 800KJ per cubic metre.  So about 5 cubic metres would be needed to store a single kWh.  But even that pressure is sufficient for some air tools.  And a 5-bar pressure vessel could be quite a cheap thing to make.  5-bar is only twice the pressure of a soda can.  A soda bottle typically bursts at 185PSI, 12.5 bar.
https://www.homeownershub.com/maintenan … 4649-1.htm

Last edited by Calliban (2022-10-16 13:14:50)


"Plan and prepare for every possibility, and you will never act. It is nobler to have courage as we stumble into half the things we fear than to analyse every possible obstacle and begin nothing. Great things are achieved by embracing great dangers."

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#133 2022-10-16 14:09:34

SpaceNut
Administrator
From: New Hampshire
Registered: 2004-07-22
Posts: 29,306

Re: Gravity Energy Storage

Thanks for those links Calliban as its more material to study. I still need to once the trial scale models are tested to do a full scale. I might try to make use of trees for the anchors as another means to make the project rather than a stand for the pully system to connect to.

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#134 2022-10-16 14:19:25

Calliban
Member
From: Northern England, UK
Registered: 2019-08-18
Posts: 3,572

Re: Gravity Energy Storage

Renewables without storage?

One thing that would make offgrid RE much more practical, is to develop a system that allows easy demand management (load shedding).  This allows the user to adapt his demand to supply, rather than attempting to store ridiculous amounts of energy.  For example, when power supply exceeds use, energy could be stored in a small pumped hydro store, say 1kWh, until it reaches capacity.  More energy can be stored by activating heating elements in a hot water tank.

Each room in the house, will have green, amber and red indicator lights.  When the light is green, heating elements are active, meaning there is plenty of excess power.  You can switch on additional loads at that point.  Things like the washing machine.  The TV.  The computer.  When the light is amber, there is sufficient power for existing loads, but no more should be added.  When the light is red, you are drawing on the pumped store and the diesel generator will soon be starting, or has already started.  You shed as many loads as possible at that point.  For hydropower, time constants are quite long.  For wind power, slew rate can be rapid, losing at much as 10% of power in a few minutes, for a small turbine.

Oversizing the generating capacity reduces the need for load shedding.  But it also increases capital costs.  So there is an optimum size for a wind turbine for any particular dwelling, depending upon local conditions and demand for power.  But controlling load appears to be a more practical solution than storage.  We could in fact design a system with a wind turbine and diesel generator alone.  Excess power is stored as heat in hot water and is absorbed by banks of heating elements.  When demand exceeds supply, the DG starts.  However, by appropriately sizing the wind turbine and by shedding loads when demand reaches say 90% of power generation, eventually the householder will learn to postpone energy demands until supply is available.  Weather forecasts can be used to schedule high load activities.  This would seem to me to be more practical than attempting to store energy.  We need to change our behaviours and learn to adapt demand around supply.  This article has more to say about that.
https://www.lowtechmagazine.com/2017/09 … ather.html

Last edited by Calliban (2022-10-16 14:25:26)


"Plan and prepare for every possibility, and you will never act. It is nobler to have courage as we stumble into half the things we fear than to analyse every possible obstacle and begin nothing. Great things are achieved by embracing great dangers."

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#135 2022-10-16 14:33:58

SpaceNut
Administrator
From: New Hampshire
Registered: 2004-07-22
Posts: 29,306

Re: Gravity Energy Storage

That can also be achieved by not feeding the buckets as mass can be used to change the time and by using flywheels and governors to control motion of the pail riding down the slope. One can also control the return bucket remaining water in it as well to slow the rate of the rotation as well.

Windmills use the hot water for load dumping when wind does move the bleeds but are not high enough for full power creation.

The generators are still in a flux state of design until I have more of a working model knowledge but as you note it could be several depending on permanent magnets and alternator designs in the power creation units.

I am also looking at if it's possible to Intergrated the windmill into the pulley assembly as well as an alternative to using water as shown in post 113. it would be on a clutch of some sort to be able to decouple it when not in use. I believe that the omni direct of wind is its main design but with a tail shield for direction one would convert it into a new more powerful machine.

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#136 2022-10-16 17:59:36

Steve Stewart
Member
From: Kansas (USA)
Registered: 2019-09-21
Posts: 161
Website

Re: Gravity Energy Storage

Tahanson43206/SpaceNut,
Hello gentleman, good to see you again, as well as everyone else (Greetings Caliban). I got very busy right after I started to post, then Covid hit and I got double busy. I work for an aerospace company in the Kansas City metro area. When Covid hit we had many layoffs. I'm lucky to still have a job, I'm not complaining, but when co-workers were laid off the rest of us had to fill the giant void left behind.

As far as my background/interest, I have a BS in electrical engineering from Kansas State. My first job out of college I moved out of State and worked for the Navy as a manufacturing engineer, working on aviation equipment. I've also worked in Cryogenics, Telecommunications, and the Wireless industry. I also have experience in agriculture and an interest in history. I try to do volunteer work when I can. Something I encourage everyone to do. When I moved back to my home State of Kansas, I had an aunt that volunteered at a history museum. The museum wasn't far from where my aunt lived, and I was asked if I could help with the model train at the museum. It didn't run and no one knew anything about electricity. I got the train going, and later designed and built some digital circuits that made lights blink, and built an intersection controller that kept two different trains from crashing. So I have some experience designing digital circuits and writing low level software (machine/assembler code). I'm not a rocket scientist. My interest is primarily on what to do when we get to Mars, not so much on how to get there. There are plenty of people a lot smarter than me that can figure that out.

I have a proposal on how to store energy on Mars. It's a long story. I'll need to draw some diagrams and write a lot of text. I'll work on getting it together and posting it on this forum. I might have to wait until Thanksgiving or Christmas break before I can get to it. I still work a lot of hours and it'll take some time for me to put the proposal together.

In the meantime, Tahanson43206 stated in #127

[highlight]It seems possible that SpaceNut's idea would be most productive, if the amount of material required is taken into account.[/highlight]

(I can't seem to get the "highlight" command to work. I'll leave it in so you can tell me what I'm doing wrong)
...

[highlight] If I understand SpaceNut's idea correctly, he is proposing to collect the maximum amount of electrical energy using the minimum amount of material and the least possible flow of water. [/highlight]

I have a suggestion. I don't know if it's any good, it's not the same as SpaceNut described, but I'll throw it out there anyway since my idea doesn't have very many parts. It sounds like you are trying to convert electrical energy into potential energy. Then at a later time, convert the potential energy back into electrical energy. Remember that energy is equal to force times distance. That is:

Energy = (Force) x (Distance)

A gallon of water weighs about 8 lbs. Suppose 8 lbs of water is raised 8 feet in the air. The amount of potential energy is equal to the force (8 lbs) times the distance (8 feet). The amount of water used could be cut in half, if the distance is doubled. That is to say, 4 lbs of water lifted to a height of 16 feet, has the same amount of potential energy as 8 lbs of water lifted to 8 feet.

Force x distance = ( 4 lbs ) x (16 feet ) = ( 8 lbs ) x ( 8 feet) = 64

The amount of water used could be cut in half again, if the distance is doubled again. For example, 2 lbs of water lifted to a height of 32 feet would have the same amount of potential energy as 8 lbs of water lifted to 8 feet.

Force x distance = ( 2 lbs ) x (32 feet ) = ( 4 lbs ) x (16 feet ) = ( 8 lbs ) x ( 8 feet) = 64

The takeaway is that the higher the water is lifted, the less water is needed to store a certain amount of energy. If a large amount of water is lifted, is does not have to be lifted very high to store the same amount of energy.

Comment #128 SpaceNut wrote:

[highlight] Water wheels and turbines in the dam or reservoir as well as the constant flowing stream is why there is no water as its not getting the assist of gravity over the slope as it's just a short fall is a very bloated system of power creation. [/highlight]

You are correct. Hoover Dam for example, is about 700 feet tall. Suppose the water level behind Hoover dam were 700 feet high. If 8 lbs of water were to pass through a turbine in the dam, the distance the water fell is 700 feet. Now suppose that the water level at Hoover dam has gotten down to just 100 feet high. If 8 lbs of water passed through a turbine, it will have only fell 100 feet, or one-seventh the distance.

Therefore only one-seventh as much energy (electricity) is being generated. There are a couple ways to look at this. In this scenario, for each gallon of water that passes through the dam, only one-seventh of the energy (electricity) is being generated when compared to the water level before (700 feet). Or to look at it another way, it takes seven times as much water (7 gallons instead of 1) passing through the turbines to generate the same amount electricity as was generated before. You can see how the low level of water at Hoover Dam is not only a water problem but is also causing an energy problem.

Here's my idea... In comment #113 SpaceNut posted a picture of a wooden tower (2nd picture). Suppose a water tank were placed at the top of this tower. I think an inexpensive submersible pump could be used to pump the water up to the tank.

I bought a submersible pump from Amazon about 15+ years ago. (The one I bought is no longer available, the link below is one similar to the one I bought). At the time my dad was having problems with water in his crawl space. I used the submersible pump to pump water out of his crawl space until I could get a sump pump installed. A few years later, I had a neighbor that was having some foundation work done. The foundation people had dug a trench about 3 feet deep and it a filled with water after a storm passed through. I thought I'd do my neighbor a favor and pump the water out for them. I used the submersible pump to pump water up to a PVC pipe, which I had propped up about 2 feet above the ground. I had several PVC pipes plugged in together, (About 8' lengths each), to let the water drain a long way from the trench. The water was being lifted about 5' total, and I was surprised at how fast the water ran out. It was about like having a garden hose with the water turned halfway up.

The link below is a pump similar to the one I have. Mine came with 3 different adapters, the adapter allows different size hoses to be used. One of my adapters allows a garden hose to be screwed onto the pump. The specs of the pump below has a "7.2 ft high lift". I'm pretty sure mine could lift water much higher than that. If you're willing to risk a few dollars on the pump, and assuming it has a garden hose adapter that comes with it, it would be easy enough to determine the pumps maximum lift height. Just screw a garden hose into the pump, drop the pump in a bucket of water, then climb a ladder with the other end of the hose to test how high you can get before the pump cannot pump water any higher.

Submersible pump for fountains   $20

If it turns out the pump can move water up high enough, the link below is to a generator that can make electricity when water is running the other way. I've never used one of these. I have no idea how well they work. It looks like a garden hose can screw on to the end of it. Although I was unable to verify that in the specs.

Water flow generator turbine   $12

Only one garden hose would be needed to move water up and down, to and from the water tank. A "Y-connector" could be put on the bottom of the hose. (See link below). One side of the "Y" would go to the pump, and the other "Y" would go to the generator. The "Y" can be switched to the pump side, or to the generator side. There would be some connections to figure out, but it looks do-able.

Hose splitter   $7

As far as a water tank is concerned, all you need is to build a wooden box on top the tower and insert a plastic liner. I know thick plastic liners are available at a reasonable price for building water fountains, or small ponds. Here is an example:

Pond Liner Pond Skins PVC for Ponds, Streams Fountains and Water Gardens,9.8ft x 9.8ft   $25

I'm not sure how much energy could be stored this way.
But this is the simplest solution I can think of at the moment.
I'm not advertising for Amazon.
I just used their web-site because it was convenient and they have pictures.
There are many places that sell the hardware I mentioned.
Good luck. I'll be posting more stuff later.

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#137 2022-10-16 18:21:50

SpaceNut
Administrator
From: New Hampshire
Registered: 2004-07-22
Posts: 29,306

Re: Gravity Energy Storage

Thanks Steve Stewart, and welcome back for the building of the reservoir tank concept as I was looking to do something similar and could power it via a small solar panel to fill it from the artesian well that is unusable due to 8x iron and other metals plus sulfur.

Its refills at 2 gpm plus goes down a depth of 280 ft so I have plenty to make use of. Even in summer dry spells it dropped only 15 ft.

The tank would then dump the amount selected in a period of time to the pale as it goes by. I would monitor the rate of descent so as to control water filling each pale as it makes its way around the loop from top to bottom of the hill. What I am looking to do is divide the loop so as to keep it in motion.

There is no highlight in this current version of the php used here but you can do quotes with username with the end quote.
Plus you can use color commands to indicate a copy of text as well.
http://newmars.com/forums/help.php#bbcode

No worries on the link sites

The submersible can lift just 7 ft so a stronger pump will be required to lift water to the tank top.

The tank if made with wood could use the pond liner otherwise it would be used to hold in heat for the tank is one way to keep it cheap. One could also use solar thermal heating to keep it from freezing.

The low-cost turbine could be used to make one that would deliver the current and or power as the unit did not list those, but I am still in solving mode anyways.

Not sure what to use the splitter for but it's something that could still be needed.

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#138 2022-10-16 19:13:53

SpaceNut
Administrator
From: New Hampshire
Registered: 2004-07-22
Posts: 29,306

Re: Gravity Energy Storage

A little bit for why I am pursuing this is the recent cost change for electricity.

Unitil customers can expect to pay about $100 more per month starting this December after a supply rate increase was approved Friday afternoon.

The approved rate means the typical month-to-month bill will jump from $132 to $234, which is about a 77% increase.

During the hearing, the Department of Energy agreed that the new rate is consistent with the competitive market.

"The dramatic price increases this year reflect the continuing volatility in the market and the high forward natural gas and electric prices heading into the winter across the country,"

Myself I am on Eversource and yes, I got an increase as well
PUC Approves 112 Percent Increase In Power Supply Costs For Eversource Customers

The request of Eversource to allow it to recover the costs of the power supply they buy for the next six months will send bills up 53.3 percent for over 500,000 customers, the PUC noted. The price increase goes into effect on Aug. 1 and goes through Jan. 31, 2023. Rapidly rising natural gas costs, which represented 57 percent of the fuel mix to make electricity in New England, according to ISO-NE, are the primary reason for the rate increase.

Gov. Chris Sununu held a press conference this week to announce a plan to soften the blow. He is proposing the use of $60 million in state surplus funds to give a one-time, $100 credit to just about all 600,000 ratepayers on their electric bills.

The measure still will require legislative approval but is expected to help consumers beginning with their September bills. The state has four major electric service providers and three of them either already have authorization for the price hike or are asking for it.

\

Many of the coal burning plants were converted years ago to use propane.

Here is the amount and rate.
supply is at 0.10669 funny math used for delivery so total is indicated.
4/7 - 5/11 was 34 days and used 730 kwhr cost total $161.69
5/11 - 6/10 was 30 days and used 555 kwhr cost total $128.55
6/10 - 7/12 was 32 days and used 675 kwhr cost total $154.07

This one is broken into 2 rates supply is at 0.10669 for 447.1 kwhr and at 0.22566 for 258.9 kwhr
7/12 - 8/11 was 30 days and used 706 kwhr cost total $185.17

supply is at 0.22566
8/11 - 9/12 was 32 days and used 775 kwhr cost total $258.22
9/12 - 10/11 was 29 days and used 652 kwhr cost total $222.35

the fuzzy math for delivery covers being connected to their wires otherwise just multiply the kwhrs by the rate for the electric portion of the charges.

Now you can see why I am looking at anything to offset electric costs.

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#139 2022-10-16 19:18:36

tahanson43206
Moderator
Registered: 2018-04-27
Posts: 18,134

Re: Gravity Energy Storage

For Steve Steward re long post and BBCode questions...

To see formatting codes for this site, click on the BBCode button at the bottom of the input window.

I use the quote command frequently, and occasionally the bold command.

Other members have experimented with italics and icons of various kinds.  The Admins of long ago selected a small number of icons, because it turned out members weren't interested in the hundreds that were (and are) available.

I notice that under the input window there are buttons for url's and images.

If you take a look at the BBCode instructions and have questions, please do not hesitate to ask them.

To keep that traffic out of Gravity Energy Storage, you are welcome to use housekeeping.

That is as good a place as any to discuss various formatting options.

PS .... SpaceNut is NOT trying to create potential energy, in the sense that I got the impression you might have meant.

He has a supply of water (below ground), sunshine on his property, and a slope sufficient to (hopefully) allow the water to generate electricity.

The issue under discussion ... pausing .... actually, there are probably multiple issues to be dealt with... but the key concept I am hoping will flow from this work is a confirmation that a mechanical system might require less physical mass to produce electricity than a traditional water pipe system.

The links that Calliban just provided show a variety of home sized water power systems.

I was taken by the idea Calliban advocates, of drawing water power directly into machinery and skipping the electricity middle man.

My guess would be that for SpaceNut, having a supply of electricity might be more valuable than having a power take-off spindle at the bottom of his property.

SpaceNut ... your input would be helpful here.  We are attempting to follow your project, and (hopefully) to toss in encouraging words here or there.

(th)

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#140 2022-10-18 18:13:26

Steve Stewart
Member
From: Kansas (USA)
Registered: 2019-09-21
Posts: 161
Website

Re: Gravity Energy Storage

SpaceNut,
Wow, yes I can see why you are looking for a way to reduce electricity costs. Looking at your numbers I can see you're paying 22 to 23 cents per kilowatt. I guess I'm spoiled by living here in the midwest. Per the link below, the average cost per kilowatt in Kansas was 13 cents in 2021. This year it's 15 cents. Up 14%. The states surrounding Kansas are Missouri 14 cents, Oklahoma 13 cents, Colorado 15 cents, Nebraska 12 cents. The link below shows your surrounding states Maine at 23 cents, Vermont 20 cents, and Massachusetts at 24 cents.

Electric rates by state

Your artesian well sounds interesting. Being that deep (280 ft) the water in the well should be relatively warm year round. I wonder if there is some way to hook up a geothermal heat pump to it? I did a quick Internet search and came up with the link below. One of the problems with using well water with a heat pump is that you'd have to run the well pump which would cut into your savings. What are you using for heat?

How Does a Water-Source Heat Pump Work?

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#141 2022-10-21 19:41:13

Steve Stewart
Member
From: Kansas (USA)
Registered: 2019-09-21
Posts: 161
Website

Re: Gravity Energy Storage

SpaceNut,
I was going through the Science Friday Archives and ran across this segment. I think this applies to you since the host of the show and one of his two guests are from your part of the World. One of the guest is Sam Evans-Brown, who is the executive director of Clean Energy, which is based in Concord, New Hampshire.

At one point in the program, host Ira Flatow said "I live in New England. I see that you live in New England. We may be hooked up to the same grid,..." Just after that, Ira Flatow said "I live in Connecticut".

The interview was recorded on 8.27.2021 and Ira Flatow is talking about solar panels that he had just installed on his house. In his opening statement he said "If you follow me on Twitter, you may have noticed me joyfully posting about my electric bill, $9.62. Why so happy? Well, because last year the bill was over 300 bucks. Want to know my secret? I’m happy to share it with you."

I thought you would enjoy this segment so I'm sharing it with you. At the link below you can click on "Segment Transcript" to see a full transcript of the episode.

Science Friday
How To Make Solar Power Work For Everyone
33 minutes

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#142 2022-10-21 22:59:41

kbd512
Administrator
Registered: 2015-01-02
Posts: 7,606

Re: Gravity Energy Storage

Steve,

Welcome to the New Mars Forums.

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#143 2022-10-22 10:25:47

Steve Stewart
Member
From: Kansas (USA)
Registered: 2019-09-21
Posts: 161
Website

Re: Gravity Energy Storage

Thank you kbd512. Nice to meet you. It's a pleasure to be among good company.

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#144 2022-12-04 10:14:10

SpaceNut
Administrator
From: New Hampshire
Registered: 2004-07-22
Posts: 29,306

Re: Gravity Energy Storage

The fact that we have motion in a rotation makes many things become useful in the process of creating power.

More do it yourselfer builds.

Here is an axial Flux generator build
https://youtu.be/UQX8Y7w7aOo

Here is a water screw made from a 5 gallon pale
https://youtu.be/Y6GN530qZB4

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#145 2023-01-12 18:42:41

SpaceNut
Administrator
From: New Hampshire
Registered: 2004-07-22
Posts: 29,306

Re: Gravity Energy Storage

As proposed by Void to create energy via the process of nature to deliver the water from the ocean to the Salton Sea via tunnels or pipelines.

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#146 2023-04-22 06:42:50

tahanson43206
Moderator
Registered: 2018-04-27
Posts: 18,134

Re: Gravity Energy Storage

This post is reserved for a report on development of two gravity energy storage facilities.  One is in China (100 MW) and the other in Texas (36 MW).

The company doing the work is "Energy Vault".  It is located in Switzerland and has 170 employees as of April of 2023.

The title of the report online includes "hundreds-of-24-ton-bricks-could-help-fix-a-key-renewable-energy-problem"

(th)

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#147 2023-07-01 10:27:19

SpaceNut
Administrator
From: New Hampshire
Registered: 2004-07-22
Posts: 29,306

Re: Gravity Energy Storage

tahanson43206 wrote:

For SpaceNut re collecting water on the roof using solar power...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CMR9z9Xr8GM

The gent who produced the video at the link above has a bit more creative capability than I do, but perhaps his example will give you some ideas.  He mounted a plastic barrel on his roof, filled it with water using a solar panel to pump the water, and then harnessed the stored energy with a small water wheel.

He demonstrated design of 3D printer and CAD parts, and created them using a 3D printer and a milling machine.

Since your property has a gradient, you could pump water up hill.  Since you live in a region were freezing is a concern, you could install the water reservoirs under ground. 

A home owner on flat land could implement this idea in a vertical pipe.

This is a small scale version of the gigantic water to water energy storage projects installed at a few locations around the world.

(th)

Thanks for the reminder....

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#148 2024-07-17 07:50:22

Terraformer
Member
From: The Fortunate Isles
Registered: 2007-08-27
Posts: 3,858
Website

Re: Gravity Energy Storage

IIRC Calliban proposed somewhere to combine windmills with pumped energy storage, where the windmills would be used directly to raise water to the upper pond and the generator set up would be hydroelectrical? Now that we're allowed onshore wind again, this is worth considering.

1000m^3 -- a 10x10x10 cube -- of water can store 250kWh of energy if raised to a height of 100m. Britain has an abundance of hills, such heights are plentiful, and its on these hills that onshore wind turbines are built. If one hectare ponds 5m deep were built at the top and bottom of a 100m difference, they could store 12.5MWhr of energy. Enough to even out the flow of a small wind farm. This would be able to power my hometown for 4-5hrs. The lower "pond" could even be the sea.

The ponds would not have to be open. We may prefer to use buried concrete tanks and restore the farmland on top of them. I do not know what the ecological impacts of doing this in peatland will be; whilst we would replace the peat on top, I do not know what the disturbance would do to it.


Use what is abundant and build to last

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#149 2024-07-17 08:48:31

Calliban
Member
From: Northern England, UK
Registered: 2019-08-18
Posts: 3,572

Re: Gravity Energy Storage

The energy density of the water is proportional to the head height.  So the cost of storage will be greater for smaller head height.  However, once constructed a pumped storage system should have an extremely long lifespan.  There are dams in use in the UK that are over a century old.  So if we accept a slow rate of return, total return should be favourable over the long period.  And pumped storage can make use of energy cheap materials.  The water storage cavity could be carved out of the rock and lined with clay.  Stabilised soil has been used to construct gravity dams.  The Aswan dam is probably the largest example.


"Plan and prepare for every possibility, and you will never act. It is nobler to have courage as we stumble into half the things we fear than to analyse every possible obstacle and begin nothing. Great things are achieved by embracing great dangers."

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