Plastic Car Automobile Truck Diamond Carbon No Metals

tahanson43206 · 2023-04-09 21:03:52

This topic is inspired in part by an ongoing conversation between kbd512 and SpaceNut in a topic started by RobertDyck.

Small scale all-plastic transportation devices exist today. Examples are all-plastic wheelbarrows, with metal used only for axles.

This topic is offered in hopes that forum members will be inspired to see how far they can stretch their imaginations to design a vehicle able to carry a family of four 500 miles (800+ kilometers) through rain, snow, darkness or summer heat, while using no metal parts at all.

Ideally, the entire vehicle would be 3D printed, except for a few parts that might be made of diamond, such as bearings for wheels or control devices.

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tahanson43206 · 2023-04-09 21:05:55

This post offers a set of snippets collected by Google on the theme of diamond bearings...

Diamond Bearings 101 | ChampionX
www.championx.com › diamond-technologies-education › diamond-beari...
Diamond bearings consist of precision machined polycrystalline diamond surfaces that run relative one to another. In operation diamond bearings may act as dry ...
People also ask
What is a diamond bearing?
What is the world's largest bearing?
What are the main types of bearings?
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Diamond Bearing Supplier - PCD Bearings Manufacturer - ChampionX
www.championx.com › products-and-solutions › drilling-technologies › di...
As a diamond bearing supplier, we are keeping rotary steerable systems, down hole motors, pumps, and turbines running in the most challenging environments.
Diamond Bearings - Boulden Company
bouldencompany.com › diamond-bearings
Diamond is widely recognized as the hardest known material for unparalleled abrasion resistance. These bearings exhibit very low wear rates, even in the ...
Bearings | Diamond Supply Co.
www.diamondsupplyco.com › collections › bearings
PCD Bearings - Waukesha Bearings
www.waukbearing.com › fluid-film-bearings › advanced-materials › pcd-b...
Waukesha Bearings has partnered with US Synthetic on polycrystalline diamond (PCD) tilt pad bearing technology, providing superior bearing performance and ...
Diamond Supply Co Bearing Rings ABEC 5 Gold - Amazon.com
www.amazon.com › Diamond-Supply-Co-Bearing-Rings
Rating 4.7 (10) · $14.95 · In stock
Amazon.com : Diamond Supply Co Bearing Rings ABEC 5 Gold : Sports & Outdoors.
Amazon.com : Diamond Supply ABEC 3 Bearings
www.amazon.com › Diamond-Supply-Abec-3-Bearings
Diamond Supply Co. Diamond ABEC 3 BearingsDiamond Supply Company was found in California in 1998 by skateboarder Nicky Diamond. HELLA FAST!
Sport Type: Skateboarding
Package Weight: 1 Pounds
Returns: Eligible for Return, Refund or Replacement within 30 days of receipt
Brand: Diamond Supply Co
Bearings | Sheaves – Diamond Mowers
shop.diamondmowers.com › collections › bearings-sheaves
These are some of our most popular Bearings and Sheaves.
Diamond Bearings Manufacturers and Suppliers in the USA
www.thomasnet.com › products › diamond-bearings-4050803-1
Precision Jewel Bearings In Sapphire, Agate, Diamond, Tungsten Carbide. Complete Bearing Assemblies. Wire Guides For Matrix Printers.
Ad·www.amazon.com/popular/items
Diamond Bearings on Amazon - Low prices for Diamond Bearings
Ad·www.vlink-pcdcutters.com/
High quality Thrust Bearing - Diamond Thrust Bearing Sale
PDC thrust bearings are very suitable for process fluid lubrication applications. PDC Thrust Bearings Professional Manufacturer in China; Factory Direct Price. Professional Manufacturer.
3D PDC Cutter · Flat PDC Cutter · PDC Cutter · Customized PDC Cutters · PCD Blanks
Related to this search
Diamond ball bearing ball
Polycrystalline diamond compact
LA Diamond Supply
Synthetic diamond cutting tools

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kbd512 · 2023-04-10 02:44:21

tahanson43206,

There is no magic in 3D printing. It's not cheaper or faster for making mass-produced parts with simple geometries. If you're going to produce tens of millions of parts, a molded or forged part is the way to go. 3D printing reduces the cost of rocket engines because otherwise very large chunks of very expensive metal need to be carved into very complex shapes using very expensive tooling and time consuming milling processes. This doesn't apply to a piston for a piston engine. Metals are also far less expensive than non-metals for a huge variety of applications.

PCD tools are used for cutting very hard materials, like metals, without galling or chipping the metal. PCD for Aluminum machining is gross overkill. High speed steel and lubricant works fine for that. PCD for cutting ceramics or hardened steel or exotic metal alloys is a near-requirement.

Apart from proving that something can be done if money is no object, what is the end goal behind this thought exercise?

tahanson43206 · 2023-04-10 06:24:47

For kbd512 re #3

Thanks for giving this new topic a counterpoint.

It seems to me that you have somehow missed the point of the exercise. In sentence 4 of paragraph 1 you referred to metal, and in sentence 6 you referred to metals. In Paragraph 2 you referred to metals, and to metal, to aluminum and to steel twice.

The car design this topic is offered to develop would use no metals at all.

A planet where metals are in short supply but where carbon is abundant could make many useful products. In fact, on Earth, many useful products WERE made of wood, and many still are.

Happily, 3D Printing is NOT magic. Otherwise, it would still be a fantasy in the mind of a science fiction writer.

While Post #3 represents a challenge for future contributors to this topic, there may be folks who will find the concept worth considering.

(th)

tahanson43206 · 2023-04-10 06:34:09

kbd512 wrote:

tahanson43206,
My response presumes that total cost matters to some degree, so material selections were made based upon them already being used for or suitable for a specific application. The vehicle in question has to be a fully functional passenger vehicle. That means advanced composites or engineering plastics will be used only when cheaper materials have too many undesirable characteristics. Any use of novel materials or fabrication methods is limited by cost.
Chassis / Passenger Compartment / Doors / Hood / Trunk: PET honeycomb panels mixed with chopped Carbon Fiber reinforcement / fiber-filled plastic (not a fiber fabric based composite which uses epoxy resins, which is both very costly and very time-consuming to produce; Chrysler Corporation has proven these bodies can be popped out of an injection mold in less than 3 minutes, ready for assembly)
Windows: Lexan / polycarbonate (already used in cars outside of America, but also for race cars and aircraft) with embedded CNT wiring heating elements for defrosting (American regulations for highway cars requires the use of tempered safety glass with a bonded Copper resistive heating element, but other countries use Lexan and some kind of tough plastic coating to contain shards of Lexan)
Windshield Wipers: Nylon arms and blade holders, rubber blades (as-is conventional design, albeit some wiper arms are still made from coated steel or Aluminum instead of nylon; neither is less functional or less costly to produce, so it seems to come down to manufacturer preference and/or cost to them from their specific supplier, but I've seen both used)
Wiper Motors: A small low-pressure air compressor / air piston connected to the engine which pressurizes a solenoid cylinder that flips the windshield wiper arm back-and-forth (Corvettes from the early 1980s or late 1970s used a vacuum-based system to operate lots of accessory systems on the vehicle, such as the windshield wipers and pop-up headlights)
Light Bodies: Polycarbonate lenses and nylon bodies with a Mylar internal coating to reflect light (as-is solution)
Lights: CNT-based liquid polymer LEDs or OLEDs (not presently used for vehicle lights)
Wiring for Lights: CNT with Tefzel / ETFE insulator (CNT is novel conductor, but Tefzel is a very common insulator for aircraft wiring)
Wheels: CFRP (this is still mostly race car technology slowly making its way into road-legal sports cars and high-end luxury cars), center-lock design using a CF-filled PEEK lock / retainer (to provide the toughness required of the mechanism locking the wheel to the axle)
Suspension: CFRP axles / shock absorber bodies / tie rods / control arms / disc springs (in place of coil springs), PTFE bushings
Tires and Door / Trunk Seals: synthetic rubber mixed with Carbon black (the "as-is" solution)
Brakes: RCC (Reinforced Carbon-Carbon; also still predominantly used in race cars and aircraft, but many sports cars now use them and the price is coming down; superior to Iron for heat dissipation rate and weight, which is why aircraft and race cars use them)
Door / Hood / Trunk Latches: CF-filled PEEK ( instead of having one steel latching stud, we would either use multi-point locking mechanisms or much larger bearing surfaces, meaning a door latching stud might be as big as your thumb and the latch itself would also need to be much larger)
Seats: CFRP for weight reduction, aerogel plastic foam padding, nylon fabric (these are all existing commercial products, sometimes combined into one product and available as aftermarket seats for racing or sports cars)
Seat Belts: Nylon (as-is solution)
Seat Belt Latches: Nylon friction locks instead of metal latches (the seat belt no longer works quite the same way, in that it doesn't latch closed per se, rather it's snugged about your body after wrapping around a stud or cleat secured to the seat itself; this allows for some movement, but then a friction lock restrains the occupant from further movement- same basic concept as a dog leash that chokes the dog if it tries to pull you over, but different execution)
Sound Deadening: polymerized aerogel foam (not presently used in cars, but used in some aircraft)
Bearing Surfaces: PTFE or PEEK
Bearings and Bearing Races: RCC
Bearing Lubricants: PTFE laden greases
Engine (massively de-rated Wankel design or Liquid Piston inverted Wankel, so a Mazda 13b-sized engine that makes 50hp at most):
Polysulfone engine block with RCC liners (the bearing surface)
Rotor: RCC with RCC seals
Eccentric Shaft: CF-filled PEEK
Gearing: CF-filled PEEK (there are gears on the rotors and side plates in the Mazda design)
Spark plugs: RCC body and insulator with a CNT electrode
Intake Manifold: Nylon or polypropylene (as-is solution)
Hoses: EPDM rubber (as-is solution)
Radiator: CF-filled Nylon with free Carbon Fibers embedded into the plastic to transfer heat (NASA's lightweight radiator design)
Oil Pan: CF-filled Nylon (as-is solution from a growing number of automotive manufacturers)
Transmission Casing: CF-filled PEEK
Transmission Gearing: CF-filled PEEK
Shifting: Pneumatic tap-shifter
Fuel Tank: HDPE (as-is solution for nearly all OEMs these days)
Fuel: gasoline (as-is solution)
The engine (at least $50,000 worth of RCC), brakes (about $20,000 per set), and transmission (CF-filled PEEK is very expensive) would each cost as much as an entire car based upon the insistence of not using any metal. The rest of the materials would cost less than an equivalent amount of metal. The chassis, accessory systems, lights, and wiring are all both doable and economically favorable. CFRP wheels cost about $10,000 per set, but they're about half the weight of Aluminum. Your car would be exceptionally light for its size, but it's also using quite a bit of aerospace or racing technology that's still not remotely affordable for the average consumer. Getting rid of the requirement to eliminate all metal from the engine, transmission, and brakes would make the car drastically less expensive.

Now ** here ** is a starting point for someone who likes a challenge.

Everything that exists on Earth is provided for free. The labor and intellectual property that a person invests in making something useful is "cost" in the process of exchange of goods and services.

As time advances, knowledge improves, and intellectual property times out.

It is science fiction today, but at some point, if humans manage to avoid destroying themselves, ** every ** useful product will be made by machines able to work at the atom or molecular level, just as a tree or any plant does today.

A defeatist attitude is guaranteed to lead to defeat.

This topic is provided for those who can imagine success and are interested in posting notes that might lead in that direction.

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tahanson43206 · 2023-04-10 07:48:41

Wooden wheels have been in use for thousands of years.

Chariots achieved a peak of performance for this concept.

A web site that Google found contains a history of wooden wheels, and the techniques used to make them.

https://ethw.org/Wheels

The dependence upon dried leather, along with glued joints, created an assembly that could exist best in a dry climate. It is interesting to speculate upon how long a wheel of this kind would retain its integrity if it were soaked.
During the Exodus, around the 13th or 14th century B.C., crossing the Red Sea compelled the pursuing Egyptians to operate in marshland. The Biblical account states that the wheels fell off the pursuing chariots. The use of dried leather and glues that were probably water soluble might be an explanation for this.
Some of the linchpins were also made of dried leather. Getting the pins wet might very well cause the wheels to fall off.
The same dry, hot (and dusty) environment that abetted the Pharaoh's rolling stock is the greatest enemy of today's war machines. Ambient desert conditions place stringent demands on engines, transmissions, and suspensions. Bearings in particular must now operate in an isolated world of their own.
Modern wheels turn faster than ancient ones, the power train drives them farther than horses can go, and the wheels seldom fall off - even when wet. But although technology has come a long way since the Exodus, a war wagon will. still. stand or fall depending upon how intelligently the mechanical problems have been solved.

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kbd512 · 2023-04-10 08:29:26

tahanson43206,

The plot devices for this Star Trek movie are that we arrived somewhere with machines equivalent to Star Trek Replicators and a planet that contains lots of Carbon, but no metals. If we can truly manipulate matter at an atomic level using our 3D printer, then we can also rearrange the nuclei of various different atoms to produce metals. The primary plot device essentially bypasses the rest of the plot of this movie.

If everything on Earth is free, then the metals present are also free.

Question:
How much Iron is left in the world?
Answer from Steve Baker (senior software engineer):
Iron is about 5% of the Earth’s crust - down to a depth of at least a dozen kilometers.
With a surface area of about half a billion square kilometers - that means that there is about 5% of 6 billion cubic kilometers of iron lying around…so let’s say we have 300 million cubic kilometers of iron. Iron weighs about 8 tonnes per cubic meter - so the amount of the stuff that we could reasonably reach would weigh about 2,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 tonnes.
World iron production is around a billion tonnes per year.
So we have enough iron to last about 2,000,000,000,000 years. Since the sun will blow up and consume the Earth in about 5 billion years - we could increase iron production by a factor of 400 and still never run out.
Of course we have to ask where all of that iron would be going! There would come a point where the entire surface of the Earth would be covered to maybe a kilometer deep in waste iron scrap - and hopefully it would occur to someone to start recycling it!
No - we’re NEVER going to run out of either Iron or Aluminium.
The metal most at risk is copper. We’re very close to running out of that extremely useful metal - and you can see the price of it is now increasing steeply as it gets harder to find. Already, it’s starting to become too expensive to use for household plumbing - and new houses are being built with plastic pipe instead.
Answer from c.z. (studied at UC Berkeley):
35% of the Earth’s mass is iron. That’s 2 sextillion tons of iron.
Even if we had a population of 2 trillion people, that’s one billion tons of iron per person.
For our purposes, we will never run out. Of course, at one point it will be uneconomical to extract more iron from the Earth, but by that time I’m confident we will have the technology to live among the stars so there’s no point in caring about the Earth running out of iron.

kbd512 · 2023-04-10 08:48:04

tahanson43206,

Plot twist...

We use all the energy and matter available on Earth, in conjunction with our Star Trek Replicators, to make the Earth flat. We put everyone inside their very own diamond billiard ball, and then we use the motion of our now "Flat Earth" for propulsion. Pac Man problem solved.

Edit:
"Pinball Wizard" plays in the background

Last edited by kbd512 (2023-04-10 08:50:20)

tahanson43206 · 2023-04-10 11:01:32

In conversation with ChatGPT today, this exchange reminded us all that quite practical applications of the theme of this topic are possible...

We have discussed a variety of examples of carbon based materials that have a variety of properties. I opened with the question of whether anyone had considered making an entire automobile out of carbon based materials. Your observations about safety are certainly valid if the intended application is to travel on the same roads with metal based automobiles. However, if an automobile is designed for use by the Amish, then the motive power would be a horse, and the velocity achieved would be quite modest.
You make a good point that the intended use of the automobile would be an important factor in considering the feasibility of using carbon-based materials for its construction. If an automobile were designed for use in a specific context, such as by the Amish, and its speed and operating conditions were limited accordingly, then it might be possible to construct the entire vehicle from carbon-based materials.
In this case, the emphasis would be on achieving a balance between the weight, strength, and flexibility of the materials used, rather than trying to meet more stringent safety requirements for use

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kbd512 · 2023-04-11 10:50:51

tahanson43206,

If you can figure out how to reduce the energy cost of RCC and PEEK plastic production, then we could have all-plastic / all-rubber / all-Carbon Fiber cars made from existing materials and easy to mass-manufacture without invoking any new technology. 3D printing could help make parts cheaper if they have complex geometry. For example, plastic suspension arms could be much lighter using 3D printing. There it makes no sense to use traditional methods if you can get a much lighter but equally strong part.

These vehicles would never rust, they should be quite a bit lighter than steel, and they should last for multiple generations of people, with cars passed down from parents to children. When they do break, their parts can be crushed and ground back into plastic powder, and then put back into a mold to pop out a new car.

There is no serious argument to be made over the superiority of RCC over Iron brake rotors. RCC is just lighter and longer lasting and more powerful for stopping the car by quite a lot. All very high performance race cars use RCC or a similar CMC material for that purpose. F1 racing teams still use metals for engines and transmissions, though. Similarly CFRP wheels are half the weight of Aluminum and tend not to crack as often if properly designed. We could also mix in some chopped CNT into the epoxy resin to make them even stronger. The tire would then become the heaviest part of the unsprung weight on the vehicle.

If we can halve the weight of a family car, then by definition it requires half as much engine power for equal performance. I think this concept would reduce the weight to 1/3 or even 1/4, though. 1/4 is very doable, especially if we can work out affordable "Carbon Forging" methods (used by Lamborghini for their CFRP tub or chassis; doesn't require hand-layup of CF fabric, uses "chopped" CF plus intense heat and pressure in a "forging press") for the passenger compartment. For those who don't know, chopped CF fabric is considerably more affordable than woven CF fabric, and the "Carbon Forging" process is done and over with in less than a minute, very similar to plastic injection molding.

SpaceNut · 2023-04-11 19:13:37

Not a new concept.

repost

1997 Chrysler CCV Concept - American Citroen 2CV youtube video

Twenty years before the FCA-PSA merger, Chrysler tried to build its own Citroen 2CV

When completed atop its front-wheel-drive 101-inch-wheelbase chassis, the CCV weighed in at just under 1,200 pounds, returned 50 miles per gallon, topped out at 70 mph, and would have cost around $6,000. At the time a basic, no-frills Neon weighed about twice the CCV and cost about $11,000.

Looks like the PT cruiser that I had....

SpaceNut · 2023-04-11 21:18:19

SpaceNut wrote:

kbd512 wrote:
SpaceNut,
I would like to tweak Chrysler's CCV concept just a bit, by making the vehicle approximately twice as wide as Chrysler's CCV was, and equipping it with a 57hp opposed two-cylinder Pegasus O-100 engine. While this obviously won't provide the same fuel economy as the Briggs & Stratton engine, it also produces about 4X as much torque at less than half that lawn mower engine's peak power rpm figure. It won't win any drag races, but it will at least accelerate well enough to get out of its own way, unlike the original CCV's anemic 23 second 0-60mph performance. That would likely be slow enough to be dangerous on Houston highways.
The Pegasus O-100 is a custom-built part aviation / part automotive, half Continental O-200 engine. It's not a Continental Motors product, though, and is the work of a Mr. Pete Plumb. He created it for his single-seat "Crackerjack" trainer-type aircraft after the supply of suitable Rotax 2-stroke engines dried up. The O-100 uses a pair of O-200 cylinders / "jugs", CP Carillo forged pistons and connecting rods, custom austentitic ductile iron crankshaft, custom cast Aluminum crankcase, chopped-off O-200 camshaft, and Continental's O-200 / O-300 accessory case that normally mounts dual magnetos, an alternator, and an electric starter. There are no timing belts or chains in these engines, as everything is gear-driven. An opposed or "boxer-type" engine will be smoother in operation than any V-twin without balance shafts. The engine can use a throttle body fuel injector or direct injection into the jugs. An electronic ignition will be provided via a self-powered CDI accessory in lieu of the pair of 1930s vintage Bendix magnetos. We'll also add a catalytic converter to reduce emissions and a proper muffler to reduce noise. The unused pad on the engine's accessory case that was previously home to one of the magnetos, will instead mount an AC compressor for cabin cooling. Cabin heat will be provided via a thermal transfer loop that extracts heat from the engine's oil tank.
The use of dual plugs is primarily to assure reliable ignition after plug fouling from the Lead in AVGAS messes with the spark, as well as counteracting the general reliability issues associated with magnetos. That's something which is not typically a serious problem for engines that use unleaded gasoline and CDI, but we will retain the dual-plug feature to reduce emissions by promoting prompt combustion.
Similar to the O-200 and O-300, the O-100 makes its power at low rpm. All 57hp / 103ft-lbs of torque comes in at only 2900rpm. That's a lot of usable power without revving the engine to the moon. O-100 weighs about 105lbs to 110lbs, all-up weight. We can mount it to a 3-speed Jeep CJ manual transmission, and those weigh about 75lbs. I figure on another 15lbs or so for a good Aluminum bellhousing, although it should be possible to integrate this into the crankcase for less weight. Add another 20lbs for the flywheel and clutch. With engine and transmission mounting hardware, and a full exhaust system, I expect total weight to be 220lbs or so. That does not include the rear diff or axles, which I expect will add another 60lbs or so.
Anyhow...
600lbs for my CCV2 plastic chassis, 280lbs for the drive train, 200lbs for the suspension components and steel chassis stiffeners, 160lbs for the wheels, 100lbs for the automotive glass mandated here in America, 60lbs for 10 gallons of fuel, and we have a fully functional 1,400lbs highway car that comfortably seats 4 American-sized people. With four 200 pound passengers we're still at 2,200lbs. Most of the time we'll be well under that weight figure. The Dodge Neon's curb weight fell somewhere in that range, so its all-steel construction made it considerably heavier than my CCV2 concept.
This is my "commuter car concept", fully capable of taking the kids to school and the parents to work, without spending crazy money on electronic gadgetry that will inevitably require total replacement, being so costly to replace that the vehicle is not economically repairable. When the gadget repairs end up costing more money than the vehicle's Blue Book value, that is precisely how otherwise repairable durable goods end up in junk yards, where much of the embodied energy is subsequently lost to recycling and manufacture of more expensive and energy-intensive "next-generation trash" that never manages to reduce energy consumption. The energy saved in terms of manufacture, operation, and total replacement will enable our working men or women to transport themselves to where they need to go without bankrupting themselves or our nation, which will inevitably lead to the downfall of our technologically advanced civilization. More importantly, with only 1/3 the fuel consumption of our modern behemoths, we can feasibly extend our existing fossil fuel energy supplies and affordably use intermittent solar or wind energy to synthesize the transportation fuels required make our society function as well as it does.

SpaceNut · 2023-04-11 21:18:34

SpaceNut wrote:

kbd512, Of course the upgrades for performance means that price tag just went over that $20,000 dollar value and then some. Of course before we were talking about those with little or bad credit and low income ability to purchase a vehicle.
kbd512 wrote:
SpaceNut,
If the average American was a little smaller then we wouldn't need the upgrades. Even burger flippers are making $15/hr now, so hopefully they have the money for a quality car. It's a 20 year purchase, rather than a 2 to 5 year purchase. We're talking about a $6,000 engine, $250 worth of plastic for the chassis, $250 for glass, $1,500 worth of drivetrain components, plus another $1,500 worth of misc parts (head lights, seats) and labor for assembly. With a 10% profit margin, that's $10,425.
If GM can afford to sell their Chevy Spark for $13,600, a vehicle that's a good 800 pounds heavier, then there's no reason why mass production of a much lighter and lower technology vehicle wouldn't fetch a lower price. We're choosing to put money into the plastic molding machines and a high-quality and durable engine / transmission combo.
This car is so simple that assembly and disassembly can happen in one hour. We can disassemble them for recycling, instead of crushing and then chopping them up into little bits. The engines should last for decades with routine maintenance, even if periodic rebuilds are required.
These are the features NOT present:
* power steering
* power brakes
* power windows
* power door locks
* power mirrors
* power seats
* radio
* electronic transmission
* electronic dash instruments
* electrical fuel pump
What we DO have:
* user-adjustable bucket seats with 5-point harnesses in lieu of air bags
* speedometer with mileage readout
* engine tach
* engine and oil temp
* fuel quantity gauge
* turn signal indicators
* windshield wipers and washer
* cabin air conditioner
* cabin heater
* catalytic converter
* USB ports for charging user-supplied electronic gadgets like a cell phone or iPad
If you've ever seen all the electronic silliness inside a Chevy Spark, there's simply no way this car could ever be as expensive as a Spark.

tahanson43206 · 2025-04-04 07:45:06

This topic has been resting since 2023. In this post, I am attempting to gather information to answer a question posed by a neighbor.

I picked up a chunk of Styrofoam to use as a template for a specific application, and offered it to the neighbor so she could use it to determine the needed dimensions for a piece of wood she needs. She asked if the piece I supplied is "wood".

I hesitated to answer, because I know that while Styrofoam is made from hydrocarbons, and wood is self-assembled using carbohydrates, I'm under the impression the two materials have much in common.

Per Google:

Styrofoam Chemical Formula
C8H8: This represents the repeating unit of the polystyrene molecule. It shows that the molecule is made up of 8 carbon atoms (C) and 8 hydrogen atoms (H). n: This indicates that the C8H8 unit is repeated many times, forming a long chain or polymer.Feb 6, 2025

There appears to be no oxygen at all in Styrofoam.

To be continued >>

In contrast, as indicated by the name "carbohydrate", wood contains oxygen...

Per Google:

Overall, wood has an elemental composi- tion of about 50% carbon, 6% hydrogen, 44% oxygen, and trace amounts of several metal ions.
The Chemical Composition of Wood
NewMexico.gov
https://hwbdocs.env.nm.gov › References
PDF

With some lingering hesitation, I've decided to inform my neighbor that the Styrofoam template I provided is not wood.

The two are such close relatives that we even have products on the market advertised as "plastic wood".

Just to try to put this issue to rest:

Per Google:

"Plastic wood," which is also known as wood putty or wood filler, is a composite material typically made of wood dust or fibers combined with a binder and a diluent, often with pigments for color.
Here's a more detailed breakdown:
Wood Component: The wood portion can consist of wood flour (fine wood dust), wood fibers, or sawdust from various tree species, or even agricultural residues like wheat straw or peanut hulls.
Binder: The binder is a substance that dries and holds the wood particles together, and can be a latex-based or solvent-based formula.
Diluent: A diluent, or thinner, is added to adjust the consistency of the product.
Pigments: Pigments are added to create different colors.
Examples of plastic wood products:
DAP Plastic Wood All Purpose Wood Filler: is a latex-based wood filler.
DAP Plastic Wood Epoxy Filler: is a 2-component epoxy designed for wood restoration projects.
DAP Plastic Wood Hardener: is a latex-based wood hardener to seal and restore soft wood fibers.
Uses of plastic wood:
Filling imperfections, such as nail holes, in wood prior to finishing.
Repairing cracks and damage in wood surfaces.
Restoring soft wood fiber

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Calliban · 2025-04-04 08:48:05

I can certainly see the energy efficiency benefits of a much lighter car. Longevity is very important as well, given that a large chunk of the lifetime energy consumption of a car is in its construction. For EVs, the embodied energy is naturally higher. A car that doesn't wear out for a century, aside from modular, replaceable parts, would make driving a lot more sustainable.

One problem with using high strength composites is stability. The car needs to remain grounded during sharp turns. A steel chassis, whilst heavy, does keep centre of gravity close to the ground.

Another problem is stress cycle. Low alloy steel components can take a million stress cycles before creep effects become a problem. Problems with steel, such as corrosion and cracking are revealed faults that an MoT will pick up. From what I remember, fibre reinforced composites show minimal signs of damage up to catastrophic failure.

CFRP components would need to be glued or bolted rather than welded. Does that introduce any potential problems?

Aside from that, fibre reinforced polymers are a splendid idea for car construction. One of my pet favourite technologies is compressed air powered vehicles. But the energy density of compressed air CFRP cylinders tops out at about the same as lead acid batteries. If the airtanks are part of the chassis, their weight provides ballast keeping centre of gravity close to the road.

Compressed air is sustainable in ways that battery technologies never can be. If we make a cylinder long lasting, then any additions to energy storage capacity with compressed air will be cumulative. Rather like the Hoover Dam, which was built a century ago, you can build it once and use it almost forever. When the Hoover Dam capital cost is divided by the total number of kWh produced over its lifetime to date, the resulting number would be ridiculously cheap. Hydropower is cheap because the plants last almost forever. If we build infrastructure that way, it becomes a gift to future generations that will go a long way towards compensating them for depleted resources. If we build things that are initially cheap but wear out quickly, we are leaving them a burden. We need to get into the mindset of building things that don't wear out and if they break, they are repairable instead of replaceable. That is the path towards sustainability. It is something the Victorians understood, but we seem to have forgotten.

Last edited by Calliban (2025-04-04 09:08:58)

kbd512 · 2025-04-04 18:57:46

Calliban,

We have commercialized 700bar tanks that withstand 25,000 pressure cycles. The use of stronger fibers and matrices could enable us to develop 1,000bar tanks. A 1,000 bar storage tank's energy density, even when combined with hot water, should match that of actual Lithium-ion battery packs, which are much heavier than the cells themselves. It's close enough to Lithium-ion that there ought not be much of an argument against compressed air.

A 700bar 350L CFRP H2 storage tank weighs 211kg. This is commercialized tech.

Source:
NPROXX 350L 700 bar Hydrogen Tank

From Wikipedia:

Thus if 1.0 m3 of air from the atmosphere is very slowly compressed into a 5 L bottle at 20 MPa (200 bar), then the potential energy stored is 530 kJ. A highly efficient air motor can transfer this into kinetic energy if it runs very slowly and manages to expand the air from its initial 20 MPa pressure down to 100 kPa (bottle completely "empty" at atmospheric pressure). Achieving high efficiency is a technical challenge both due to heat loss to the ambient and to unrecoverable internal gas heat. If the bottle above is emptied to 1 MPa, then the extractable energy is about 300 kJ at the motor shaft.

I presume 0.3MJ per 1m^3 of air compressed to 200bar means 1.05MJ per 1m^3 at 700bar and 1.5MJ per 1m^3 at 1,000bar.

A 350L / 700bar tanks should then store 257.25MJ of energy, or 71,458Wh.
A 350L / 1,000bar tank should then store 525MJ of energy, or 145,833Wh.

If we further assert that only 70% of that potential energy can provide useful power input to an air turbine and flywheel, then we have 50kWh and 102kWh compressed air "batteries" that never lose capacity.

Making composite gas storage tanks requires a lot less materials and energy than Lithium-ion batteries, and those tanks can store compressed air, Hydrogen, Methane, or Propane in a vessel that meets US DoT standards for compressed gas storage. There is no electro-chemical battery I'm aware of that will retain 100% of its original storage capacity over 25,000 cycles, and the inability of electro-chemistry to completely reverse the chemical processes that take place during charge and discharge virtually ensures that there never will be.

We have plenty of places along our coastlines where we can sink trompes into the ocean floor to compress air to between 400 and 600psi without having to dump a lot of waste heat from that initial compression, at which time further compressing that supply air, to between 700 and 1,000bar, generates a more manageable quantity of waste heat, which can be converted to hot water just below its boiling point, whereupon compressed air and hot water pipelines can deliver those products to gas stations. Tanker cars could also deliver the energy, and use the same energy to power themselves.

It's an elegantly simple solution to a complex energy storage and distribution problem, so that the average person who only drives 50 to 100 miles per day, or less, has a very inexpensive way to get to work. Since such cars don't need complex control systems, a guy with a few hand tools can work on the car.

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