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#1 2020-07-22 11:18:45

RobertDyck
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From: Winnipeg, Canada
Registered: 2002-08-20
Posts: 7,747
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Hybernation using today's medical technology

There has been real progress on hibernation. Researchers found 80 ppm hydrogen sulphide gas (H2S) will cause mice and rats to go into hibernation. The mice and rats must be subjected to cold, it won't happen in summer temperatures. Body temperature drops to +2°C, ambient temperature must be the same. Increase CO2, reduce O2, this causes body metabolism to shift to anoxic. They tried it with rabbits, it required slightly higher concentration of H2S, and they were only able to reduce body temperature to +5°C. Another researcher tried it with deer, elk, and moose. He also replaced 50% blood volume with saline. That's salt water with the same salt concentration as blood. It worked... sort of. When replacing blood with saline, 10% of the animals did not awaken, they died. Of those that did survive, 30% suffered permanent brain damage. The animals did nothing but stand around, eat, shit, and sleep. For livestock on Mars, they won't have anywhere to go, they would be stuck in a stall in a hard wall barn that the animal cannot bite/chew/claw out of. So for livestock that's possible, but not humans.

Note: at concentrations of 300-350 ppm hydrogen sulphide gas is lethal. Sub-lethal dose causes the body to drastically drop it's temperature. Body temperature regulation still works (mostly) but the set temperature is dropped. That's what this does.

Can this be used with humans? At 50-100 ppm H2S gas causes eye damage. That's exactly the range necessary to drop body temperature. So... not so much. Wikipedia: Hydrogen Sulphide

So what can we do? Medical technology has developed something called "medically induced coma". This is barbiturates, usually pentobarbital or thiopental, that shut down brain function. It prevents swelling of the brain, and prevents the human body from performing "triage". Triage means healing for moderately damaged body parts are given priority, severely damaged body parts are deprived blood so allowed to die. This allows the body to focus on body energy, nutrients and resources on parts that have the greatest likelihood to recover. Medically induced coma prevents the body from cutting off blood to parts of the brain, giving those parts a chance to heal.

Surgery on the aorta requires cooling a patent's body to near freezing. This slows metabolism so the body can be deprived of blood for a few minutes without decay or tissue death. Long enough for the surgery. I'm not suggesting we stop the heart, but medically induced deep hypothermia can be done.

Can we put individuals into hibernation simply with current medical technology? Medically induced coma and deep hypothermia?

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#2 2020-07-23 03:13:47

Calliban
Member
From: Northern England, UK
Registered: 2019-08-18
Posts: 3,281

Re: Hybernation using today's medical technology

RobertDyck wrote:

There has been real progress on hibernation. Researchers found 80 ppm hydrogen sulphide gas (H2S) will cause mice and rats to go into hibernation. The mice and rats must be subjected to cold, it won't happen in summer temperatures. Body temperature drops to +2°C, ambient temperature must be the same. Increase CO2, reduce O2, this causes body metabolism to shift to anoxic. They tried it with rabbits, it required slightly higher concentration of H2S, and they were only able to reduce body temperature to +5°C. Another researcher tried it with deer, elk, and moose. He also replaced 50% blood volume with saline. That's salt water with the same salt concentration as blood. It worked... sort of. When replacing blood with saline, 10% of the animals did not awaken, they died. Of those that did survive, 30% suffered permanent brain damage. The animals did nothing but stand around, eat, shit, and sleep. For livestock on Mars, they won't have anywhere to go, they would be stuck in a stall in a hard wall barn that the animal cannot bite/chew/claw out of. So for livestock that's possible, but not humans.

Note: at concentrations of 300-350 ppm hydrogen sulphide gas is lethal. Sub-lethal dose causes the body to drastically drop it's temperature. Body temperature regulation still works (mostly) but the set temperature is dropped. That's what this does.

Can this be used with humans? At 50-100 ppm H2S gas causes eye damage. That's exactly the range necessary to drop body temperature. So... not so much. Wikipedia: Hydrogen Sulphide

So what can we do? Medical technology has developed something called "medically induced coma". This is barbiturates, usually pentobarbital or thiopental, that shut down brain function. It prevents swelling of the brain, and prevents the human body from performing "triage". Triage means healing for moderately damaged body parts are given priority, severely damaged body parts are deprived blood so allowed to die. This allows the body to focus on body energy, nutrients and resources on parts that have the greatest likelihood to recover. Medically induced coma prevents the body from cutting off blood to parts of the brain, giving those parts a chance to heal.

Surgery on the aorta requires cooling a patent's body to near freezing. This slows metabolism so the body can be deprived of blood for a few minutes without decay or tissue death. Long enough for the surgery. I'm not suggesting we stop the heart, but medically induced deep hypothermia can be done.

Can we put individuals into hibernation simply with current medical technology? Medically induced coma and deep hypothermia?

Interesting.  What is the desired outcome?  To slow the ageing process or reduce consumption of consumables in transit?

Hibernation would improve the economics of spaceflight beyond the moon.  If we could pack hibernating humans into containers like other cargo and provide them with limited oxygen and fluids, then the number of people carried by a single Starship would be greatly increased.  Initiatives like this are going to be necessary, as a round trip time of 2.5 years means that a single Starship will complete at most ten round trips in its lifetime.  There is no practical way of reducing round trip times and fatigue life will limit the effective lifetime of the ship.  Increasing passenger volumes using hibernation is economically desirable, if it can be made to work.

In some ways, it is a more desirable way to travel.  Who really wants to live in a cramped tin can for several months, when they can sleep through it?  But it would only be acceptable if you could be sure of waking up on the other end without longterm damage.  People will go for this if the risks are acceptable and it cuts ticket price dramatically.

Maybe we can transport convicts to other locations in the solar system in this way to perform useful work.  They can either spend 20 years in prison, or 4 years in hibernation and 6 years working on an asteroid with some danger money pay at the end of it.  Some will take it I'm sure.

Last edited by Calliban (2020-07-23 03:23:46)


"Plan and prepare for every possibility, and you will never act. It is nobler to have courage as we stumble into half the things we fear than to analyse every possible obstacle and begin nothing. Great things are achieved by embracing great dangers."

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#3 2020-07-23 07:29:10

tahanson43206
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Registered: 2018-04-27
Posts: 16,411

Re: Hybernation using today's medical technology

For RobertDyck and Calliban, and all re topic ...

A relatively recent science fiction film painted what I thought was a generally realistic picture of use of hibernation for a 100 year flight to a distant star.

The plot line of the story revolved around a collision of the starship with a bit (or perhaps several bits) of matter at (what I think was 10% of c).

The hero woke up because his automated life support system was triggered by something, so he found himself alone on a huge ship.

There were only one or two instances of the artistic director getting away with ridiculous ideas for the sake of artificial theatrical effects.

I'm blanking on the name right now, so asked Google:

https://spacenews.com/11-must-see-space … out-space/

The list at spacenews does not include the specific film I'm thinking of, but I do agree with the films on the list.

"Passengers" is the name I was looking for ... I found it in this list:

https://www.syfy.com/syfywire/top-25-mo … ace-ranked

On a routine journey through space to a new home, two passengers, sleeping in suspended animation, are awakened 90 years too early when their ship malfunctions. As Jim and Aurora face living the rest of their lives on board, with every luxury they could ever ask for, they begin to fall for each othe… MORE
Initial release: December 22, 2016 (Russia)
Director: Morten Tyldum
Budget: $110–150 million
Box office: 303.1 million USD
Screenplay: Jon Spaihts
Nominations: Academy Award for Best Original Music Score, MORE

For RobertDyck ... If you have not seen this film, I think I can safely recommend it for your study, in connection to your large passenger ship topic.

There are a number of reviews that Google found.  Here is a snippet from one of them:

Search Results
Web results

Sci-Fi Gets Science Right: 'Passengers' Nails the Physics ...www.space.com › 35104-passengers-scifi-movie-nails-s...
Dec 21, 2016 - While aspects of the new science-fiction film "Passengers" may seem like pies in the sky to skeptics, creators of the futuristic space thriller ...

(th)

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#4 2020-07-23 10:37:57

RobertDyck
Moderator
From: Winnipeg, Canada
Registered: 2002-08-20
Posts: 7,747
Website

Re: Hybernation using today's medical technology

"Passengers" movie? That's a major movie. Jennifer Lawrence and Chris Pratt. Dating Jennifer Lawrence? Would definitely recommend it.

However, their chamber with hibernation pods is highly unrealistic. The pods would be stacked like cord wood, not spread out with lots of floor space and head room. Passengers are asleep.
(click image for YouTube trailer)
Passengers_2016_film_poster.jpg

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#5 2021-12-12 12:25:24

Mars_B4_Moon
Member
Registered: 2006-03-23
Posts: 8,674

Re: Hybernation using today's medical technology

The "medically induced coma" or hibernation is an interesting subject. Here's a news item on sleep but not really related to cryo chamber or scifi concepts like suspended animation

High-tech sleeping bag could solve vision issues in space
https://www.spacedaily.com/reports/High … e_999.html

For 72 straight hours, the study volunteer lay in a bed at UT Southwestern, the monotony broken only at night when researchers placed his lower body in a sealed, vacuum-equipped sleeping bag to pull down body fluids that naturally flowed into his head while supine.

New research published in JAMA Ophthalmology shows that by suctioning these fluids and unloading brain pressure, the specially designed sleeping bag may prevent vision problems astronauts endure in space, where fluids float into the head and continually push and reshape the back of the eyeball.

The phenomenon has vexed scientists for more than a decade and remains one of the biggest health dilemmas of human space exploration. But the findings from UT Southwestern - which NASA enlisted to seek answers to astronauts' vision problems - suggest the high-tech sacks may provide a solution.

Notably, researchers found that while just three days of lying flat induced enough pressure to slightly alter the eyeball's shape, no such change occurred when the suction technology was used.

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#6 2022-06-03 08:39:25

Mars_B4_Moon
Member
Registered: 2006-03-23
Posts: 8,674

Re: Hybernation using today's medical technology

Here's Why Hibernation in Space May Not Be Possible For Future Space Travelers

https://www.futurespacetech.com/2022/04 … y-not.html

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#7 2022-06-03 13:37:05

Calliban
Member
From: Northern England, UK
Registered: 2019-08-18
Posts: 3,281

Re: Hybernation using today's medical technology

Mars_B4_Moon wrote:

Here's Why Hibernation in Space May Not Be Possible For Future Space Travelers

https://www.futurespacetech.com/2022/04 … y-not.html

So basically, humans have too little body fat to hibernate long term.  All that would be needed to change this conclusion is to hook them up with a drip.


"Plan and prepare for every possibility, and you will never act. It is nobler to have courage as we stumble into half the things we fear than to analyse every possible obstacle and begin nothing. Great things are achieved by embracing great dangers."

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#8 2022-07-03 13:53:48

Mars_B4_Moon
Member
Registered: 2006-03-23
Posts: 8,674

Re: Hybernation using today's medical technology

Altos Labs launches Cambridge Institute of Science with $3B to support its cellular rejuvenation mission: "to reverse disease, injury, and the disabilities that occur throughout life”

https://www.cambridgeindependent.co.uk/ … l-9261846/

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#9 2022-07-06 17:09:40

RobertDyck
Moderator
From: Winnipeg, Canada
Registered: 2002-08-20
Posts: 7,747
Website

Re: Hybernation using today's medical technology

Chasing Ghosts: Unlocking the Mysteries of Human Hibernation

In October 2006, Rokkō provided the perfect place for Mitsutaka Uchikoshi, a 35-year-old civil servant, to go picnicking with a group of friends.
...
On his way down, Uchikoshi lost his footing, causing him to slip, knock his head and break his pelvis. Unable to move or call for help, he lay wounded on the side of the mountain. At night the autumn cold, dropping as low as 50 degrees Fahrenheit, crept into his bones. He passed out.

After 24 days, he was found by a passing climber and transferred to Kobe City Medical Center General Hospital. He was extremely hypothermic and cold to the touch. Many of his organs were failing. According to news reports at the time, Uchikoshi's doctors reasoned he had fallen into a state "similar to hibernation," just like a groundhog might.
...
In 2016, in an FDA-approved clinical trial, a team of surgeons at the University of Maryland School of Medicine, led by Dr. Samuel Tisherman, began investigating how the procedure might help these patients survive. It is hoped that the process, known as Emergency Preservation and Resuscitation, will improve the odds of survival for trauma patients without doing any damage to their brains.
...
enrolling the first human patient and placing that person temporarily in "suspended animation" in November 2019. It's expected that 10 people will be enrolled by the trial's completion.

The full results of the trial are still pending and have been delayed twice, with the pandemic throwing an extra wrench in the works. It's now expected to be complete in December 2023, according to its listing on the US clinical trials database.
...
The clinical trial is trying to keep patients in a state of suspended animation for only minutes or, at most, an hour or so — long enough for doctors to repair traumatic injuries. As Tisherman told New Scientist in 2019, "I want to make clear that we're not trying to send people off to Saturn."

But Uchikoshi's long period of inactivity and subsequent recovery suggests such a future might be possible.

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#10 2022-07-06 20:40:42

SpaceNut
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From: New Hampshire
Registered: 2004-07-22
Posts: 28,597

Re: Hybernation using today's medical technology

Seems that all we need is to stay warmer than hypothermia temperatures but in a knocked-out state.
Normal body temperature is around 98.6 F (37 C). Hypothermia occurs as your body temperature falls below 95 F (35 C).

R.bf8ba0132f840c8bc735e50035af0e51?rik=WWP9zVx3n9AaKA&riu=http%3a%2f%2f1.bp.blogspot.com%2f-I98cuGo3SMk%2fU7HeAotmciI%2fAAAAAAAAAyQ%2f_OLpDpK_dzg%2fs1600%2fHypothermia.jpg&ehk=cgaVLFUi%2bLidnpODqU5%2f%2f0YEt%2bwedVYpgVIeShmZyxg%3d&risl=&pid=ImgRaw&r=0

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#11 2023-02-10 21:39:20

Mars_B4_Moon
Member
Registered: 2006-03-23
Posts: 8,674

Re: Hybernation using today's medical technology

Different to the Cryogenic Suspended Animation seen and described in cartoons, movie and scifi novels.

NASA astronauts could hibernate in deep space thanks to squirrels
https://www.space.com/squirrel-hibernat … astronauts

Researchers are studying hibernating Arctic ground squirrels with the goal of harnessing the benefits of this odd natural state to protect astronauts' health on long-duration space missions.

Hibernation is not just sleep. In fact, it's quite different from sleep. While we sleep, our brains fire up and become highly active; in hibernation, on the contrary, brain activity completely slows down. The body temperature of hibernating animals also drops, in some cases close to the freezing point, cells stop dividing and heart rate decreases to two beats per minute. 

Yet, once it's time to wake up, hibernating animals bounce back to life without any substantial side effects. The same, however, can't be said about people who wake up from long-term medical comas, or even those who are bed-ridden for long periods of time. Such people, just like astronauts in microgravity, would suffer from a wide range of side effects that come from not actively using their bodies: Muscle loss, bone loss, organ degradation. 

NASA is therefore looking into hibernation research with the aim of developing ways to induce hibernation in future space farers. Recently, the agency has awarded a grant to Kelly Drew, a professor of chemistry and biochemistry at the University of Alaska, Fairbanks, who has studied hibernating animals for more than two decades.

Last edited by Mars_B4_Moon (2023-02-11 06:38:40)

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#12 2023-03-19 18:00:56

Mars_B4_Moon
Member
Registered: 2006-03-23
Posts: 8,674

Re: Hybernation using today's medical technology

Hypothalamic Protein Loss Drives Aging, Hints at Approach to Reverse Cognitive Decline

https://www.genengnews.com/aging/hypoth … e-decline/

The results of a study headed by researchers at Xiamen University has found that a hypothalamic protein called Menin may play a key role in aging. The findings, reported in PLOS Biology by Lige Leng, PhD, and colleagues, revealed what they describe as a previously unknown driver of physiological aging.

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#13 2023-03-22 06:12:30

Mars_B4_Moon
Member
Registered: 2006-03-23
Posts: 8,674

Re: Hybernation using today's medical technology

Astronauts that hibernate on long spaceflights is not just for sci-fi. We could test it in 10 years.

https://www.space.com/astronaut-hiberna … -in-decade



    The first hibernation studies with human subjects could be feasible within a decade, a European Space Agency (ESA) researcher thinks.

    Such experiments would pave the way for a science-fiction-like approach to long-duration space missions that would see crew members placed into protective slumber for weeks or months on their way to distant destinations.

    Hibernating on a year-long trip to Mars would not just prevent boredom in a tiny space capsule; it would also save mission cost, as the hibernating crew members wouldn't need to eat or drink and would even require far less oxygen than those awake.

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#14 2023-06-16 03:32:49

Mars_B4_Moon
Member
Registered: 2006-03-23
Posts: 8,674

Re: Hybernation using today's medical technology

AI algorithms find drugs that could combat ageing

https://www.ed.ac.uk/news/2023/ai-algor … bat-ageing

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