Panspermia

Void · 2017-01-13 09:51:49

I am starting this here for the reason that most areas on this web site are specific to Mars. This topic can include Mars, and should but for now I am interested in multiple worlds in our solar system. And even rogue objects.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Panspermia

Here is an article mentioning S8 compounds in the clouds of Venus.
http://www.dailystar.co.uk/news/latest- … ce-mission

Their analysis indicates that perhaps the compounds would be protective from acid, and might convert U.V. light to visible wavelengths.

I also am interested in Near Infrared wavelength photosynthesis potential in the clouds of Venus. For the case of Venus, I am also interested in longer infrared as well, dealing with Sulphur related long infrared photosynthesis. Here is some work on that topic related to this thread. The last few posts in particular.
http://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.php?id=7568&p=2

More reference material:
https://www.bing.com/news/search?q=Venu … &FORM=EWRE

So, the points I will dwell on are:
-Others have pointed out that there is strange chemistry going on in the clouds of Venus, suggesting that any CO being generated by photolysis is being consumed.
-Others think that Sulphur compounds in the clouds of Venus can protect from acid and U.V. wavelengths, and could convert U.V. to Visible and Infrared wavelengths.
-The base of the clouds are the wettest with H20, due to the heat below which causes Sulfuric Acid to decay into water vapor and Sulfur Dioxide.

Earth Ocean Vent Photosynthesis: (Revisited)
http://www.asu.edu/feature/includes/sum … tosyn.html
*Note that this temperature of the ocean vents is lower than the surface of Venus, and it's lower atmospheric layers.
Quote:

The bacteria apparently live in the razor-thin interface between the extremely hot water (350 degrees Celsius, or 662 degrees Fahrenheit) coming from a flange vent and the very cold water (2 degrees Celsius, or about 36 degrees Fahrenheit) surrounding it.

The surface temperature of Venus:
http://www.space.com/18526-venus-temperature.html

The average temperature on Venus is 864 degrees Fahrenheit (462 degrees Celsius). Temperature changes slightly traveling through the atmosphere, growing cooler farther away from the surface. Lead would melt on the surface of the planet, where the temperature is around 872 F (467 C).

So, the surface and lower layers of atmosphere on Venus are more than hot enough to generate photons of 1300 nm, 1000 nm (presumed limits that Earth life can use), 740 nm (Beginning of Oxidative Photosynthesis), and even some dim Red. How much of this can "Shine" to the wetter bottoms of the clouds, I cannot say.

So, the wetter undersides of the cloud deck, are very rich in wavelengths of light photo life could use. Also, natural photolysis should be generating Oxygen and Carbon Monoxide, but the Carbon Monoxide seems to be being depleted.

So presumed life on Venus would have challenges such as short U.V. light, acid, and perhaps lack of nutrients (Not sure about that, about 1/2 of the surface of Venus has supercritical CO2, which can dissolve surface materials. But other than the short U.V. an extremely rewarding photo environment, and a chemical inheritance as well.

So, I will say that if ocean vent life on Venus was adapted to Sulfur chemistry, high temperatures, and the use of infrared photons, it would have already been partially adapted to living in the lower reaches of the cloud decks of Venus.

Such an environment might have persisted from the time the oceans boiled, to now without a break.

As for Mars, I think that the environment now which I consider to be habitable has wandered from more habitable to not habitable. I think there are good chances that Martian life is extinct, and that Venus life is still alive.

That is if Venus, Earth, Mars, and the then icy/wet asteroid belt swapped life forms.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2017-01-13 10:28:44)

Tom Kalbfus · 2017-01-13 11:12:53

Venus is an Earthlike planet excepting its atmosphere, closeness to the Sun and slow rotation. I think if we can fix Venus, global warming should not be a problem on Earth. I was looking up Halley's comet, it is next expected to come within 0.6 AU of the Sun in 2060, and it will pass within 1 AU of Jupiter along the way.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Halley%27s_Comet

Halley is the most active of all the periodic comets, with others, such as Comet Encke and Comet Holmes, being one or two orders of magnitude less active.[14] Its day side (the side facing the Sun) is far more active than the night side. Spacecraft observations showed that the gases ejected from the nucleus were 80% water vapor, 17% carbon monoxide and 3–4% carbon dioxide,[47] with traces of hydrocarbons[48] although more-recent sources give a value of 10% for carbon monoxide and also include traces of methane and ammonia.[49] The dust particles were found to be primarily a mixture of carbon–hydrogen–oxygen–nitrogen (CHON) compounds common in the outer Solar System, and silicates, such as are found in terrestrial rocks.[45] The dust particles decreased in size down to the limits of detection (~0.001 µm).[13] The ratio of deuterium to hydrogen in the water released by Halley was initially thought to be similar to that found in Earth's ocean water, suggesting that Halley-type comets may have delivered water to Earth in the distant past.

What do you think would happen if Halley's Comet or another comet like it were to hit Venus? As the article said 80% of the outgassing of Halley's comet is water vapor, and Halley's comet has a mass of 2.2×10^14 kg. I bet you much of that water vapor would stay in the atmosphere until it photo-disassociates due to the Sun, it can't rain out. This is 176 billion tons of water, and whatever hits Venus doesn't hit Earth. We can reduce the threat of comet impacts on Earth by steering comets toward Venus and thickening it water clouds.

Terraformer · 2017-01-13 13:31:27

Well, that's 1/3 kg of water per square metre of Venus, so it would certainly be an improvement on the current clouds. I don't know what would happen to the surface temperature though - the albedo is pretty high as it is. It would probably get hotter, but even so would be better for floating colonies.

That would be if the water stayed. A direct fast hit would drive off most of it, plus a large amount of atmosphere.

Void · 2017-01-13 14:37:32

I am afraid I need to complain. This is Panspermia, and the case for a life form in the clouds of Venus, and I did go to great efforts to also suggest that Venus itself with it's heat could drive photosynthesis.

Such organisms if they exist would be extremely valuable to study. For instance in studying them we might figure out how to build organisms which can do a different type of photosynthesis, and this might help humans inhabit a planet like Mars, or some other worlds.

Instead I receive back a plan to ignore and exterminate any life forms on Venus.

Yes, I have said it before. When the oceans of Venus evaporated, it is speculated that the temperature of Venus went to thousands of degrees on the surface, before Venus lost most of it's Hydrogen, and thus cooled down to what it is now. An impact would warm the atmosphere very hot and the added moisture if it was captured, would also elevate the temperatures severely.

I said Panspermia, not Teraforming. You have plenty of Venus terraform topics to act on if that is what you want.

Void · 2017-01-15 11:16:17

Oh possible life in the clouds of Venus?

Crickets.

Tom Kalbfus · 2017-01-16 08:42:18

Void wrote:

I am afraid I need to complain. This is Panspermia, and the case for a life form in the clouds of Venus, and I did go to great efforts to also suggest that Venus itself with it's heat could drive photosynthesis.
Such organisms if they exist would be extremely valuable to study. For instance in studying them we might figure out how to build organisms which can do a different type of photosynthesis, and this might help humans inhabit a planet like Mars, or some other worlds.
Instead I receive back a plan to ignore and exterminate any life forms on Venus.
Yes, I have said it before. When the oceans of Venus evaporated, it is speculated that the temperature of Venus went to thousands of degrees on the surface, before Venus lost most of it's Hydrogen, and thus cooled down to what it is now. An impact would warm the atmosphere very hot and the added moisture if it was captured, would also elevate the temperatures severely.
I said Panspermia, not Teraforming. You have plenty of Venus terraform topics to act on if that is what you want.

Comets must have hit Venus before just like the did Earth. Seems that much of the moisture in Venus's clouds might have come from those. Just seems that Venus is kind of dry, it is a bit of a polluted planet too much sulfur dioxide in the atmosphere, I believe tha contributes the acid rain problem that Venus currently has, and global warming has gotten way out of hand!

Void · 2017-01-16 14:03:30

Step #1 Find out if there is life on Venus. Unlike Mars, where the enemy can try to tie us down for centuries with red tape about possible life, testing Venus should be relatively simple.

If life on Venus, then study it. Learn what you can.
Is it a unique genesis? Well, that's interesting! Then the odds are that the universe is full of unique genesis life forms. This reduces the value of the life on Venus, because it is actually not unique. Probability is that it happens all the time. But for a unique genesis on Venus, then we need to consider it's protection for the sake of our own selfish interests. The whole planet and it's ecosystem and how it works will be of significant value.

Is it panspermia, between two or more worlds in our solar system? Well, in that case, then we have only one Biosphere in the solar system, and that would include Earth and Venus, and perhaps some other worlds. It becomes less important to protect that life form, beyond our selfish interests, because it is a different part of one biosphere. Just like the tropics and tundra are different parts of one biosphere.

If life is confirmed (Rather easily) to not exist on Venus, then we may do as we like to some extent with the case of Venus.

Yes Venus has lots of Sulfur Dioxide. Technically we could say "Too much", but that's just because Venus as it is falls short of an ideal environment for humans at this time.

Sulphur Dioxide + Water Vapor + U.V, = Sulfuric Acid.

Heat + Sulfuric Acid = Sulfur Dioxide & Water Vapor.

Verga is rain that does not reach the ground. It evaporates during it's fall.
Venus has Verga of Sulfuric Acid, and that brings Sulfuric Acid down into the hot layers, where it decomposes into Sulfur Dioxide & Water Vapor.

That is why the lower cloud deck has more water vapor and mist than the upper clouds of Sulfur Dioxide.

Step #2??? Inhabit and Terraform, if no life found, or if life is compatible with your Inhabitation and Terraform methods.

We are talking atmospheric floating devices. Not some 100,000 year plan to change Venus to Earth.

Last edited by Void (2017-01-16 14:10:35)

Tom Kalbfus · 2017-01-17 09:28:10

Adding more water to Venus would make the upper atmosphere more habitable for us as the availability of water is a limitation to our ability to inhabit the upper atmosphere. Venus in the past must have had more water in its atmosphere than it does today. One small change would be to have as much water in Venus's atmosphere as there is now in Earth's atmosphere, most of Earth's water is in its oceans, only a small portion of its water is in its atmosphere, as for Venus 100% of its water is in its atmosphere, that water never reaches the ground. The question is, how much water would we need to add to Venus to make its atmosphere as wet as Earth's? Water would still rain, evaporate and recondense as water droplets in clouds. We wouldn't be adding sulfur dioxide, so we would still get sulfuric acid only it would be diluted by more water and thus be less acidic. I think Venusian life can survive more water. I think water clouds would reflect more light into space, thus the surface of Venus would get darker, absorb less light and reradiate less heat that would get trapped in the atmosphere. Thickening the cloud layer with water would do this.

Void · 2017-01-17 12:21:09

A collection of Venus information:
http://www.datasync.com/~rsf1/vel/1918vpt.htm
https://www.bing.com/images/search?q=at … ajaxhist=0

Quote:

Adding more water to Venus would make the upper atmosphere more habitable for us as the availability of water is a limitation to our ability to inhabit the upper atmosphere.

I don't think that is probable. I do make note that the topic here is panspermia, but I guess humans coming to inhabit Venus would be a form of that so we have some latitude to continue.

The first question is, "Is there life in the clouds of Venus?". Fortunately, this can be answered with much more authority and more quickly than the question "Is there life on Mars?". This is significant in my opinion. Mars by the way is included in the topic here.

It is evident to me that we are going to be toyed with as concerns Mars. Some of the Scientific community is involved with Earth social agenda's. Some of the scientific community is actually a religious organization as well in disguise. While protecting life on Mars is a valuable thing to do for it and for Humans (If life exists on Mars), we are however presented with the likelihood that foreign powers will use this excuse to nullify the potential achievements that space program(s) might achieve.

For instance any socialist agenda, either right or left socialist, views humans as the main resource to own and control. This type of people have been mostly generated from a post civilization process. They are attempting to be the "Top Predators" of a human eco-system. It does not matter if they exist in the decaying remains of previous civilizations, or have migrated here, possession of human resources to gain advantage is always their agenda. Therefore, they will not want to see "Free-Range" humans going off into a wilderness where they cannot "Possess" them as a hidden property they own and exploit.

So, while I agree that cautious investigation of Mars is required, I have reservations about how long this game will be played against us by those who will not appreciate that our kind will escape their grasp.

We will see if someone like Elon Musk can get around their games or not.

In the meantime, we can consider what the Moon and asteroids might do for us, our kind. If that can be done, then if Mars is still locked up, finding out if life exists on Venus is important. If not, then we can develop a system including the Moon, Asteroids, and Venus. (And ruin our enemies day I hope).

One exportable item of value from Venus could be Carbon. (Not sure how valuable that ultimately will be, but 3D graphene would be a very good material).

Sulfur obviously is very available. I have been told that it is a very strong material under a vacuum, but I am not convinced that it would be practical to export it.

Then there is the question of living space. It is conceivable that building "Land" in the atmospheric column of Venus could be a going business, profitable.

So then my next post will be about building "Land" on Venus, in it's atmospheric column.

Last edited by Void (2017-01-17 13:14:09)

Void · 2017-01-17 13:16:21

Land:

A Karov topic, so why not link to it.
http://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.php?id=7574
This again:

I would think to build one and only one floating device, that goes all the way from the 10 bar level just below the cloud deck up to even perhaps a 1/4 to 1/3 bar level.

The outer wall of it will only isolate the outer more acid environment from a contained less acid environment. In general the interior will be occupied by Venus Atmosphere (Minus Sulfuric Acid), and many chambers filled with Nitrogen for floatation, at an air pressure appropriate for their location.

Robots/Telepresence machines will be able to function in any of these from 10 bars to 1/4? bar.

If the outer wall should rupture, the only bad consequence might be the temporary intrusion of Sulfuric acid into the big chamber. This could cause some damage, but I presume that Robots/Telepresence machines will work to repair all damage.

Resources provided by the Chamber to humans:
Obviously as is convenient there will be sub-compartments which can have a temperate climate, and a N2/O2 air mix in them for humans.

Humans might also be able to work down at the 10 bar level if they are refrigerated, and have a Helium/Oxygen mix to breath. I don't know how much need there would be for that, if telepresence machines are very workable.

Water:
Unlike you, I want to remove the water in the atmosphere of Venus into the interior of this big chamber. Sulfuric acid verga (Rain that does not reach the ground), will decompose into water vapor and Sulfur Dioxide. So around the 10 bar level water can be extracted from the cloud deck and into the main chamber/sub compartments.

Normally, U.V. then splits CO2 into CO and 0. Then the O bonds to a Sulfur Dioxide, creating Sulfur Trioxide which is reactive, and reacts with water vapor to recreate Sulfuric Acid for the cloud deck.

But if you steel all the water vapor into your main chamber and sub compartments, you can stop this I think. So, the intention is to build a chamber which goes from the 10 bar level to the 1/4? bar level, and then as you take on more and more water, expand it horizontally from a floating island to a continent size. Absorb virtually all the water from the atmosphere, therefore destroy the Sulfuric Acid.

You would then be left with Sulfur Dioxide clouds for the most part.

This structure is built from what?

In the beginning, I suppose manufactured materials from the Earth/Moon/Asteroids.
Later from surface materials of Venus itself.

Other than the acid and heat, aircraft of many types should be very possible to fly from the 10 bar level of the main chamber to the surface of Venus. If they need cooling then water can be supplied to them so that they can cool by evaporation/boiling. An alternative would be dry ice, or liquid CO2.
In any case water or dry ice or liquid CO2 will serve as a ballast, if you are dealing with a lighter than air machine. (Blimp/Dirigible).

Gliding to an airfield runway, being loaded with mined materials, the ballast evaporating off, then takeoff, and up to the 10 bar level, to land on a open air landing strip under the main chamber. It will take a long time to develop mining equipment and aircraft that could cope with such an environment, so I see the chamber being built with Moon and Asteroid materials at first, then expanded to full size with local materials, perhaps even Carbon to some extent.

Some have suggested dangling cables down to the surface to pull materials up. I don't care, that is another way.

[Resources provided to humans by the chamber?
A quote from Karov, from Karov's linked topic:

The habitat scales are nested into each other as these russian dolls. And the outer makes the livability of the inner ones.

Anybody who does not live in an ideal cradle of humanity, environment, and who has technological skills already does the above on Earth to provide different degrees of habitability to their "Land".

Only a small part of the "Chamber" has to have a shirt sleeve "Home Space Habitability Level" to be useful. Most will have environments that are better than the natural environment of Venus, but not very much "Home Space Habitability Level".

That is one thing that I notice about people who come from temperate climates like south USA or UK, they try to make one wall take care of all the differences between the outside environment and the inside environment, except for of course the necessary air locks which cycle between the two environments. Typically the nested method is not employed, but it is absolutely the best way of thinking.

So, lots of land built, of various qualities, and that in itself a thing that can be sold to people.

What about the "Land" at the ~10 bar level, just below the cloud deck, and where cables can be dangled, from or aircraft can anchor/land? What else to do at that level?

Well, I mentioned this elsewhere in another "Life Support" topic:
I mentioned it before:Acaryochloris marina
http://phys.org/news/2012-03-far-out-ph … hesis.html
http://www.astrobio.net/alien-life/far- … synthesis/
Quote:

Acaryochloris marina that uses chlorophyll d (Chl d) instead of Chl a to perform oxygenic photosynthesis with photons from visible light through to wavelengths up to 740 nm in the near-infrared (NIR).

Nancy Kiang of the NASA Goddard Institute for Space Studies (GISS) explains, "Chl d extends the useful solar radiation for oxygenic photosynthesis by 18% – meaning life can use more wavelengths of light (i.e. more types of light-producing stars) to survive. This implies a lot of cool things."

The underside of the "Chamber" will be irradiated with friendly near infrared photons, from the hotter layers of Venus. (I think). So, photosynthesis involving a derivative of "Acaryochloris marina ".

And also there is non-oxygenic photosynthesis that ocean vent organisms can do. Each of these options have problems however, that will have to be worked through.

"Acaryochloris marina " may have trouble coping with the temperatures of that "Land". The temperatures may be too high. A possibility would be to have "Glass" upside down domes to grow it in depending from the underside of the "Chamber". If you circulated cooled water from the upper parts of the chamber, maybe you could deal with the heat by cooling the environment for "Acaryochloris marina ". Of course then you are heating water So, thermal water cycles generating power are going to be available to exploit. Ultimately however, I would think that building a better heat tolerance into a revision of "Acaryochloris marina " would be desired. Even perhaps making vascular plants that can live in 220 degF 100 degC + environments, and use near infrared photons. (Pretty far out, maybe can't be done, even in the far future). I do note that the near infrared light to be used at the 10 bar level will be a constant. No day and night cycles really.

As for organisms that do non-oxygenic photosynthesis in the range from 740-1000 nm, that is a problem because those wavelengths may not pass though glass.

Meanwhile on the top of the "Chamber", you could have radiators and greenhouses, but they will have to put up with irregular daytime light, and a dangerous U.V. flux. 250-330 mb pressure? Guess humans could cope with it. These would most likely be food production greenhouses.

On the sides of the "Chamber" at the 1 bar level you could have attached chambers with window walls, and there you could have "Parks". But of course those will be under attack from Sulfuric Acid, so they may be costly to build and maintain.

Energy:

Exterior under attack from Sulfuric Acid:
You could have solar cells on the top of the "Chamber" and perhaps even solar cells on the bottom of the chamber (Using infrared photons). You could also have windmills on the outside. But all of these will have to cope with Sulfuric Acid.

Interior, better protected from Sulfuric Acid:
It is not certain how much convection could happen inside the chamber. You could build ducts filled with Nitrogen, loops from top to bottom, where Nitrogen convection happens where cool Nitrogen drops, and hot Nitrogen rises. You could attach heat engines to that, or put windmills in them.

There is a possibility that the entire main chamber atmosphere of CO2/N2 will have convection, particularly, if there is a water vapor cycle, where evaporated water at the bottom, rises inside the chamber. That water then condensing on the roof of the chamber. Methods could be considered to boil water on the bottom and release it to the 10 bar pressure, but I hesitate to assume that it would boil at those pressures. I think not. Instead evaporating water to grow "Acaryochloris marina ", perhaps evaporation to cool that life.

Then if water condenses on the roof of the chamber at the 1/4 to 1/3 bar level, collecting it and generating power using hydroelectric methods from dropping that cooled water down to the 10 bar level, to help cool the "Acaryochloris marina ". And that would be quite a drop.

http://www.universetoday.com/36871/clouds-on-venus/

Really a long post. Anyway, if you contain all the water vapor in your big chamber, and make the atmosphere of Venus dryer, then you should end up with mostly Sulfur Dioxide clouds. Then if you have a fetish for building Venus into another Earth, you must figure out what to do with the Sulfur Dioxide. You must also cope with changing atmospheric conditions that might effect how your big continent sized habitat functions. You might hope to sell the Sulfur into space, but at this time it is not a viable option either technically or economically. And what would you do with the Oxygen produced?

Personally, I think building a continent sized chamber and ending up with Sulfur Dioxide clouds is enough. It is extremely unlikely that Venus could be converted into another Earth in any reasonable time span, even using a Hall Weather machine, should that become an option.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2017-01-17 15:04:56)

SpaceNut · 2019-07-13 19:49:31

Give or take 0.1 billion years earth is believed to be 4.54 billion years old..

Deep-time.png?w=1000&ssl=1

Void · 2020-07-25 11:09:44

I guess if I am going to talk about Panspermia, I should use an existing topic. However, perhaps I was unwise to put it in "Not so free chat". Still that is a broad enough category for this. The administrators can decide.

I am focusing on a solar system event that is supposed to have happened ~800 Million years ago. The evidence so far is from the Moons craters. Here is an article(s).
https://www.foxnews.com/science/62-mile … study-says
Snowball Earth:
https://www.haaretz.com/science-and-hea … -1.9009584
Others:
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech … s-ago.html
https://www.hemasolutions.com/news/eart … s-ago.2316
Late Bombardment much before this:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Late_Heavy_Bombardment

So, where I am going with this is that various objects in the solar system may have periodically had temporary alterations in there climates.

Such impactors could temporarily altered a climate, I am thinking Earth & Mars as having that potential, and in some cases, perhaps kill a world, depending on the magnitude of the impact.

I am thinking that for a planet like Venus it might have killed it, unless there are microbes growing in the clouds as a remant.

This is all speculation, and certainly not proof.

Typically we have a continuity of progression in the evolution of planets suggested. Venus is supposed to evolve to a runaway greenhouse situation for instance, not including the possibility of a more random punctuation of its progression from impact events which may have happened.

I am only rising questions about probabilities.

For the Moon, we have the primary theory of a giant impact of the Earth being the entire source of the existence of the dominant nature of the Moon that we have had since Apollo. But it seems that magma erupting has more Carbon than older deposits. That is not proof of the need to change the story, but it suggests an alternative where the Moon might have been created by layering, and even the possibility that the original Moons of Mars and Earth might have condensed out of the planet formation along with the parent planet. Similar to how Io, Europa, Ganymede and Callisto are presumed to have formed for Jupiter.

In that notion of our Moons, we have the possibility of an mass accumulating Moon for Earth, where the Moon keeps moving to an higher orbit by tidal forces, and for the presumed original moon of Mars, a distribution of matter by a sequence of events where that moon may have repeatedly broken up into rings and then reformed into a moon(s) of residual materials, some being lost to Mars with each event in the sequence.

For Mercury and Venus, it could be speculated that if indeed planets tend to condense while also forming moons, we might blame the suns gravity as discouraging it, or perhaps those moons were either flung off by the disturbance of the sun after forming, or moved down into the gravity well to break up and impact the planets. This could be another possibility for why Venus might be as it is, but it does ask why Venus would not have done as Mars did and have a progression of Moons. An answer might be that the relative proximity of the sun, made the process "age" much more fast. All speculation.

I did read a suggestion that the northern plains of Mars were not formed by an impact of the North hemisphere, but an impact of the southern hemisphere. In that case the impact would have formed a giant melt pool, which would have remained elevated.

For our Moon, we could speculate that the high elevations may similarly be of impact materials that melted the local crust and still pooled at a higher elevation. Also, it seems likely that the moons exposed portions have been reworked by impacts over billions of years, so my opinion is that what we see on the surface may not reflect a possible remnant of a possible original co-condensed Moon, which would have been a gravity well, that could have collected both materials from direct impacts of itself, and also very hot ejecta that came from impacts of the Earth itself.

Well then to point the compass more directly at panspermia.

Impact modifications of a planet environment are likely to be temporary, and also may either make water more likely or less likely. In the case of Earth, if it did promote a snowball Earth event, it would have temporarily prompted the evolutionary forces to favor cold adapted organisms. Organisms which might have better chances to survive transfer to a modified Mars.
Snowball Earth:
https://www.haaretz.com/science-and-hea … -1.9009584
Just noticed that they don't let you read the whole article unless you land on their flypaper.
Where here is Snowball Earth:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Snowball_Earth
I don't subscribe to more than a modification of that notion. It is greatly unlikely that the entire surface of the Earth would be all the way frigid and ice covered. Condensation would favor the deposition of the oceans waters to high elevations and high latitudes. The Polar ocean basins may have been filled with ice slabs, and the continents being elevated they as well for the most parts.

However if you evaporate the oceans to those locations you then have deep equatorial basins with perhaps an atmospheric pressure of ~~~3 bar??? and a massive greenhouse effect in them.

You also would have intense Katabatic wind storms where air at perhaps .5 bars, descends periodically into those basins at perhaps 200 miles per hour heating up and drying out the basins even more. This happens in the Antarctic dry valleys even now. Still there would be snowfalls into the desert basins, and very likely white outs from the ice slabs would also potentially distribute moisture into them.

So, at the very least their should have been some life supporting environments such as the Antarctic dry valley lakes on the equatorial ocean beds and their should have been temporary rivers, and lakes. Perhaps they were all ice covered, perhaps not all of them.

But a life supporting environment none the less.

So, a more Mars like environment, except for the higher pressures. But within those basins you might have had arid or semiarid higher elevations with lower pressure.

Here is a bit of a hint about that potential:
https://www.cambridge.org/core/journals … 9A514CD0A5

Some say that Mars had rushing rivers intermittently up to 1 Billion years ago.
https://www.space.com/mars-big-rivers-b … on%20Earth.
Quote:

Mars had large rivers long after the planet lost most of its atmosphere to space, a new study suggests.
That great thinning, which was driven by air-stripping solar particles, was mostly complete by 3.7 billion years ago, leaving Mars with an atmosphere far wispier than Earth's. But Martian rivers likely didn't totally dry out until less than 1 billion years ago, the new study found. And these waterways were big — wider, on average, than those on Earth.

So, that suggests that Martian rivers may have even been active into the period of the suggested Snowball Earth resulting from impacts.

I am going to suggest that if say two significant proto-planets smashed into each other in the asteroid belts, Mar may have experienced impactors before the Earth and Moon.

In the past I have read that impacts of Mars could create a temporary melt. Really big impacts could remove the atmosphere, and even create an iron atmosphere for a time period. I am guessing we are potentially talking about moderate impacts that could create enough heat for rivers and lakes, and might have even broken the crust and stimulated volcanic outbursts.

So, even if the Martian environment were after the last giant rivers event of 1 billion or less years ago, it is still possible that Mars was warm enough in places, with snows, and temporary melts, to support temporary streams and even ice covered lakes.

So, it looks pretty close where the environments of Mars and Earth may have been somewhat similar in places in the same time period.
Maybe.

And then all that ejecta from Earth, there must have been some impacting Mars with life that was already adapted to a similar environment.

------

So, if I were looking for life on Mars, I would try to figure out where transplanted life from Earth could have been. And if there were lakes for a while, I would speculate that if large enough they would have melted the permafrost in part of the lake bottoms, and such life could have migrated to the Martian undergrounds and Aquifers. So, a remnant could be there, behaving much like underground Earth organisms would behave. They may have had time to adapt to a less friendly environment.

Done.

More:

I would like to know about evidence of lava flows and mud flows in that approximate time period.

If impactors could have promoted a time period where magma pockets became nearer the surface of Mars.
Mud Flows:
https://www.cnn.com/2020/05/18/world/ma … index.html
https://scitechdaily.com/mystery-of-lav … asnt-lava/

Possible lava flows relatively recent on Mars:
https://www.space.com/198-mars-volcanoe … -show.html
http://volcano.oregonstate.edu/oldroot/ … rview.html

Differences from Moon
Age
Like the Moon, volcanism on Mars is very old. The mare-like plains on Mars are the same age as the lunar mare, roughly 3 to 3.5 billion years old. However, volcanism lasted much longer on Mars than on the Moon. It also seems to have changed over time. Volcanism in the highland paterae and mare-like plains on Mars stopped 3 billion years ago, but some of the smaller shields and cones erupted only 2 billion years ago. The giant shield volcanoes are even younger. These volcanoes formed between 1 and 2 billion years ago. The youngest lava flows on Olympus Mons are only 20 to 200 million years old. These flows are very small, however, and they probably represent the last gasp of martian volcanism. Thus, the odds of finding an active volcano on Mars today are very small.

My own thinking about some of the volcanism of Mars is that the large volcano's have a time constant. They are usually anchored to the crust. They cool off and so contract in size, and this eventually might cause a fracture, and they drop down, if there is a magma pocket below. They then also fracture, like a plunger dropping down, the pressurize the magma, and it flows up. The volcano's are relatively heated by that, and new layers of lava are added on top. The volcano then and magma pocket reach equilibrium, the volcano cools and freezes to the surrounding crust. Then the volcano again cools even more, and the process would repeat.

An asteroid impact of sufficient size might trigger the fracture and eruption event. So, if this happened, not only would the asteroid temporarily heat Mars, but the amount of atmosphere would be bumped up. It is also possible that the eruption would produce greenhouse gasses. So, this might prolong the temporary warm period, and allow for streams, snows, and maybe even rivers.

Done, Done.

Last edited by Void (2020-07-25 12:39:56)

Void · 2021-02-28 09:55:33

------
This really has my attention:
https://phys.org/news/2021-02-microbes- … rvive.html
Quote:

Microbes deep beneath seafloor survive on byproducts of radioactive process

It is a good read. So, a few meters below the sea floor, radioactive decay drives the ecosystem. This is called "Radiolysis". Photolysis would be it's cousin.
So, many possible ocean worlds out there, most of them covered in ice, I am guessing. Europa as a very possible example.
For a momentary diversion I will speak about the possibility of an ecology driven by Radiolysis around a very magnetically active red dwarf stars. In the case of a tidal locked word of such a star, where the atmosphere has been stripped off, and where the sunward side was dry but the dark side icy, and where tidal heating from multiple orbiting objects was present, perhaps an ecology would exist with a melted ocean under ice on the dark side, which actually was enriched by the bombardment or radiation.
Here is an interesting thing about sun like stars manufacturing Aluminum 26 in their youth.
https://skyandtelescope.org/astronomy-n … nt%20stars.
Quote:

RADIOACTIVE ALUMINUM SHEDS LIGHT ON SOLAR SYSTEM HISTORY

While some Aluminum 26 forms from Supernova events, it appears that sun like stars make it early in their formation.
Speculating in a more dangerous way, I venture that it is possible that some brown dwarf stars, and maybe even some white dwarf stars, might host planets with life, provided those planets had a source of heat, and radioactive inputs. If they have a magnetic field like Jupiter's, perhaps they would. It would likely need tidal heating as well.
This comes from Dr. Zubrin:
https://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=Ro … M%3DHDRSC3
His term "Low Ballistic Coefficient" might interest some people.
------
Anyway, I speculate that panspermia either undirected or directed might very well exist across vast distances, because of the materials of this post. A very good target for either would be to target stellar nurseries.
If we find life on Mars or elsewhere, I anticipate it will be cousin life, not another genesis.
And if we do come to see that as true, it changes the arguments of morality of going to other planets with life and altering them. If microbes are everywhere, and in the example of Mars, it may be quite likely that us terraforming the planet will give a pathway for the life to continue in a changing state of development, and perhaps in an improving state of development. Too early to say that for sure, but it may be the case.
Done.

SpaceNut · 2021-02-28 10:52:15

Heat vents from radiological material decay are simular to volcanic vents for biology on the oceans depths.

Void · 2021-02-28 11:24:04

Quote:

Heat vents from radiological material decay are simular to volcanic vents for biology on the oceans depths.

I am not sure I agree on that. My understanding is that chemicals are generated by Radiolysis, and the life forms feed on that. I don't think that their is any venting like a thermal vent, but educate me about it if I am wrong.

Done.

SpaceNut · 2021-02-28 18:53:48

pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov › ...
High levels of natural radioactivity in biota from deep-sea hydrothermal ...

Mars_B4_Moon · 2022-05-27 11:02:50

Extraterrestrial civilizations may colonize the Galaxy even if they don't have starships

https://www.spacedaily.com/reports/Extr … s_999.html

Astronomers have searched for extraterrestrial civilizations in planetary systems for sixty years, to no avail. In the paper published by International Journal of Astrobiology, Cambridge University Press, and titled "Migrating extraterrestrial civilizations and interstellar colonization: Implications for SETI and SETA," Irina K. Romanovskaya proposes that the search for extraterrestrial intelligence (SETI) may have more chances to become successful when including the search for migrating extraterrestrial civilizations.

For example, extraterrestrial civilizations may leave their home planetary systems when they face existential threats. One of the ways to do so is to ride free-floating planets. Free-floating planets can offer space and resources, as well as protection from space radiation, for very large populations embarking on interstellar travel. It is most likely technically impossible that huge starships, also called world ships, can offer the same.

Extraterrestrial civilizations may also use free-floating planets to send biological or post-biological species to survey interstellar space, stars, and planetary systems, or to establish their colonies in several planetary systems to preserve and expand their civilizations even before they face existential threats at home.

In her paper, Romanovskaya discusses how extraterrestrial civilizations may hitch a ride on free-floating planets that are trespassing through their home planetary systems, or they may ride planet-like objects ejected from their planetary systems by dying host stars. Or else, extraterrestrial civilizations may use propulsion systems and gravity assist events to convert Sedna-type Oort-cloud objects of their planetary systems into free-floating planets and ride them among the stars.

Romanovskaya points out that with little starlight reaching free-floating planets, extraterrestrials could use controlled nuclear fusion as the source of energy, and they could inhabit subsurface habitats and oceans of the free-floating planets to be protected from space radiation. That would also prepare them for colonization of oceans in planetary systems. Because free-floating planets cannot sustain their oceans forever and more exploration opportunities exist in planetary systems, extraterrestrial civilizations would ride free-floating planets to reach and colonize planets orbiting stars.

Calliban · 2022-05-27 18:27:04

Mars_B4_ Moon,

A definite slowboat to the stars. There are some stars with a high relative velocity to the sun - on the order of hundreds of km/s. The idea of hitching a ride on a rogue planet would work best if we could find a rogue planet with a high relative velocity to the galactic disc, maybe a retrograde rotation. A colonising civilisation could ride it all around the galaxy, dropping off colony ships at every star system where it makes a close approach. The problem is that even at relative velocity of 0.1% C, the civilisation may wait tens of thousands of years between close approaches. And those close approaches to stars will still be tens of thousands of AU from the target stars on average.

On the other hand, there are certain efficiencies inherent to this mode of colonisation. If we assume that it takes 10,000 years between close approaches, a group of a few thousand travellers could arrive at the rogue with the basic tools needed to get started. In 10,000 years, even a modest growth rate would see a population of millions ready to alight at the destination star system. Only a tiny fraction of 1% would need to remain on the rogue to build up human numbers and resources in the millenia before the next encounter. What begins with just a few thousand voyagers, could ultimately colonise a ring of stars around the circumference of the galaxy.

Given that dwarf planets are largely water, it is possible to build a huge marine ecosystem on these bodies, ultimately supporting millions or billions of people. The ecosystem could survive for geological timescales, with energy provided by deuterium within the water.

This sort of plan only really works is we can find a body with a high velocity already. Otherwise, we must build planet sized engines to accelerate a body that is mostly inert mass. That said, an inner Oort cloud body has average velocity just a few hundred metres per second. If we could cancel this velocity, the body woukd fall into the inner solar system. A gravity assist from Jupiter could then boost it's velocity, allowing it to escape the Sun's gravity with a residual velocity of 10km/s. OK, if you really don't care how long the journey takes.

Such an option for colonisation requires extreme patience on behalf of the colonists. Not only will they have to accept the reality that they won't see the destination system. They must accept that none of their immiediate progeny will see it either. Thousands of generations will pass before the little world finally reaches its target and colonists can disembark. For this sort of thing to make sense, the rogue world itself must be a target suitable for building a comfortable and sustainable civilisation on geological timescales. I think that could be possible using fusion reactors capable of consuming deuterium in the ice. The humans can then be caretakers for an ecosystem sustained by artificial energy.

Last edited by Calliban (2022-05-27 18:54:51)

Mars_B4_Moon · 2022-08-07 17:37:44

James Lovelock and the legacy of his Gaia hypothesis – podcast

https://www.theguardian.com/environment … is-podcast

The search for the origin of life: From panspermia to primordial soup

https://www.newscientist.com/video/2256 … dial-soup/

Last edited by Mars_B4_Moon (2022-08-08 01:56:12)

Mars_B4_Moon · 2023-02-12 08:54:15

On 9 December 2023, Halley's Comet will reach the farthest and slowest point in its orbit from the Sun

https://www.seeker.com/lets-plan-for-a- … 83657.html

Panspermia: Could life be delivered to a planet?

https://www.skyatnightmagazine.com/spac … fe-theory/

Halley’s Comet: Why 2023 Is A Big Year For The Only Naked Eye Comet That Can Appear Twice In One Human Lifetime

https://www.forbes.com/sites/jamiecarte … -lifetime/

Last edited by Mars_B4_Moon (2023-02-12 08:55:49)

Mars_B4_Moon · 2023-05-28 11:11:55

What is the Panspermia theory?

https://www.universeguide.com/blogartic … mia-theory

and a popular watch in the old original Battlestar TV series 'There are those who believe that life here began out there'

The mystery of how Mars meteorites reach Earth may finally be solved
https://news.yahoo.com/mystery-mars-met … 50665.html
Scientists have discovered that the force needed to eject rocks from the surface of Mars that eventually pelt Earth as meteorites is actually much lower than previously believed

An alien message will be sent from Mars to Earth today
https://www.joe.co.uk/news/an-alien-mes … ay-395685#!
Earth is set to receive its first ‘alien’ message from Mars today when the SETI Institute beams an “encoded” signal from a craft orbiting Mars to three telescopes on our planet.

Project called “A Sign in Space”

https://greekreporter.com/2023/05/24/al … ive-earth/

Thanks to the AMSAT-DL team for participating in A Sign in Space by receiving the TGO signal with the 20 metre antenna in Bochum, Germany!

https://twitter.com/danieladepaulis/sta … 9131302914

Last edited by Mars_B4_Moon (2023-05-28 11:30:26)

New Mars Forums

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#1 2017-01-13 09:51:49

Panspermia

#2 2017-01-13 11:12:53

Re: Panspermia

#3 2017-01-13 13:31:27

Re: Panspermia

#4 2017-01-13 14:37:32

Re: Panspermia

#5 2017-01-15 11:16:17

Re: Panspermia

#6 2017-01-16 08:42:18

Re: Panspermia

#7 2017-01-16 14:03:30

Re: Panspermia

#8 2017-01-17 09:28:10

Re: Panspermia

#9 2017-01-17 12:21:09

Re: Panspermia

#10 2017-01-17 13:16:21

Re: Panspermia

#11 2019-07-13 19:49:31

Re: Panspermia

#12 2020-07-25 11:09:44

Re: Panspermia

#13 2021-02-28 09:55:33

Re: Panspermia

#14 2021-02-28 10:52:15

Re: Panspermia

#15 2021-02-28 11:24:04

Re: Panspermia

#16 2021-02-28 18:53:48

Re: Panspermia

#17 2022-05-27 11:02:50

Re: Panspermia

#18 2022-05-27 18:27:04

Re: Panspermia

#19 2022-08-07 17:37:44

Re: Panspermia

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Re: Panspermia

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Re: Panspermia

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