Starship Mini, Other

Void · 2021-09-01 09:48:29

Mini Starship,

Well Elon Musk considered it, and Robert Zubrin has promoted some version of it.

Jarvis, which may come from Blue Origins, may be something of the sort. Others
around the planet would be stupid not to copy SpaceX, especially if they succeed
with Starship.

I understand why Elon Musk/SpaceX, cannot afford to entertain it just at this time.

However, perhaps in ignorance, I think I can puzzle out some possible options that
may not sap the energy of SpaceX too much.

While previous versions may have had Mars as it's objective, I see that for the Moon
perhaps much less effort could be expended.

The Moon is an unknown. Lunar Starship make a lot of sense, as you want to deliver
a large amount of Mass from Earth, to foster a base that is relatively safe and
can produce results of value.

But it is unknown how long that mass pulse needs to last. Just like Mars, for Luna
we may wish to do as much from Lunar materials as possible. And if Tesla or others
deliver productive robots, we then may have a question of how much mass needs to
continue to be delivered after the "Set Up" stage?

We don't know, and we will not know until "WE" get there, whoever "WE" might eventually
be

I have thought that to do a low budget revision of the 2nd Stage Falcon 9 might be of
value. It would be a pointer to say how a Mini-Staship might be constructed in the
future. For sure, a conversion to a Mars ship would require radical innovation and
too many resources from SpaceX. However it could be possible to seek something of
value from revisions of the Falcon 9, 2nd stage. At least I will ask those questions,
with a form of speculation.

So, I will give it a try. For now and only in this topic, can we consider that a
Mini-Starship prototype could be considered based on the Falcon9, 2nd stage mostly as it
currently is?

LEO Space Junk: Well, if you could refuel one, then perhaps it could de-orbit some
big chunks of Junk. How it gets to orbit? Well either with Falcon 9 or with a major
Starship. Don't know how plausible that can be. Don't know how you can collect
financial rewards. But getting some of the big chunks away, will prohibit some of the
future smaller chunks.

I next see something of interest, involving the Moon. OK lets say a Starship with
flaps, and heatshield brings a payload and a (Mini-Starship) to "The Dark Side of the Moon"
Oh.........:) That Starship does not stop, it just loops around the Moon, and lands back
on Earth. The Mini, either just captures the payload in orbit for a Lunar Starship to
get or it might land on the Moon.

I think this relay method might be rather nice. The aerodynamic Starhship just dumps
a load with a orbital capture device to Lunar orbit, and the Lunar Starship's only task
is to go up ~50 miles and get the load down to the surface. Of course this could save
propellant, but then the "Lunar Starship" needs propellant. But maybe as I have read, there
is a lot of CO in Lunar ice, then, eventually that is not a problem.

But, what of a full Mini-Lunar Starship? The 2nd stage is of lightweight materials, which
is a plus. I uses Merlin engies, and so fuels are a problem. What if a Depot can give it
enough fuel for a trip down and a trip up? What if the Oxygen can come from the Moon?

Keep in mind that the Starship that ships a payload to the Moon, may not need to be in a
cargo hold. In fact this aerodynamic version might be mostly propellant tanks, and the
Payload and Mini, may be latched on to it's leward side.

I am just saying that there could be many versions of possibilities.

I think that then as the Moon needed less and less shipments, by that time someone may
choose to design a more efficient version based on Hydralox or Methalox, per what is possible
to get from the Moon.

Think I need a sauna and a haircut. That's what matters for me now

Done.

Last edited by Void (2021-09-01 09:51:47)

Oldfart1939 · 2021-09-01 10:56:04

I posted this yesterday on another thread as post #13 on the Rocket Labs Neutron Rocket thread, Void. We seem to have similar concerns re: overall size.

"Before Musk unveiled BFR/Starship, I had envisioned an intermediate sized "next step." Falcon 9 is 3.7 meters in diameter, and i was thinking of something of a pioneering Mars ship that would be 5-7 meters in diameter as a central core using 2 Falcon 9 as strap-on boosters. That would have been enough to send my crew of pioneers to Mars on more of a reasonable budget. It would have been enough for an exploratory mission with a smaller scale investment in infrastructure."

Last edited by Oldfart1939 (2021-09-01 10:57:34)

Void · 2021-09-01 13:13:47

I was very happy to observe that post O.F.1939.

I decided to make a general place for such notions, so that we would become less likely to be cited for being off topic.

My feelings are that SpaceX is the one that is most likely to press to Mars. Their
choice of the Starship they are trying to make real, is perhaps not perfect, but they
are the only real players that I am aware of. At least for the nearer term.

I very much understand why they will not try to make a smaller starship at this time. They will likely end up exhausted just making the one work.

But I anticipate the possibility that the Moon effort may reach saturation per use of mass delivered. We don't know that. Perhaps it will just expand and expand.

More likely, it is needed to explore more of the Moon in different places. If you have robots, and perhaps landers based on the 2nd stage of Falcon 9, this might be done with a lowered expense, while improving the art that may facilitate a future
Mini-Starship for Mars.

I consider myself to be a generalist. I try to see the bigger picture in time.

The WWII generation supposedly set up specialists, which benefited the USA a lot,
but we lack people who can see the bigger picture now. That is a problem.

Here, I am attempting to start methods for a Mini-Starship device(s). With reduced resource draw. I understand that SpaceX has to watch their step now. Their are plenty of wolfs that would love to eat them while they are carrying a heavy load.

While reusability has merit for the inside of the envelope of human activity, it is likely true that on the edges of that envelope, expendable can be considered more.

If the Falcon 9 2nd stage could be used even twice, that might be a significant accomplishment.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2021-09-01 13:25:59)

Void · 2021-09-03 10:19:31

Here I am interested in investigating the reuse of various 2nd and 3rd stage
thruster devices already in orbit. Specifically their potential re-use.

In this case it is not only the potential value of mass in orbit, but also
of machines capable of a contirbution to causes, that many of us value.

Not knowing too much about any except the Falcon9, 2nd stage, (And I don't
know that much about that yet), I focus on that one. But it could be possible
that some entity might sell used rocket devices already in orbit to entities
such as SpaceX. They do like to make money, I presume.

Mission Plans Now???
It is presumed by me that SpaceX is tapped out just trying to make Starship and
Super Heavy. This may ease, if all goes rather well into the next few years.
And of course we can anticipate any amount of bad behaviors from those who see
the human population only as things to exploit. And I think you may know who
I may be talking about.

I have for a long time feared the "Mars Roach Motel" syndrome. Where some may
see the human populations as "Meat On the Hoof", other more honorable persons
may have intentions to facilitate human progress. So, we are to have concerns
about the "People Farmers". Granted, on occasion, they can save the day, when
all else fails. And then there is a potential for a "Restart". However, thay
very likely can doom the human race as it is always easy to stay home and consirve
resources, rather than to find method to more. The game can easily be played by
them in the space program, where the objective is to almost get there, but not
really, too bad. Guess we can go in circles. I do think that SpaceX has chances
significant of actually making Mars and other things work. However, we can expect
that the circular people will really want to shine, but discovering that if we just
go in circles, and loot the treasury of innovation, they can pass money down to
their patrons. This is why I see the concept of the "Mars Roack Motel". The
objective of the circular people would be to pump up a big action, then stop it
short of accomplishment, and then the loot the treasury into secret pockets. So,
in my opinion we must always consider that the "People Farmers" exist and will
have no shame or guilt in their actions.

We cannot afford to exist in a constant state of anxiety about this, but it does
not hurt to take a look and see if their shadow is about us.

It is important to remember, that for some "People Farmers", failure is the success
of the slauter house. They get to take and distribute the goods to their patrons.

-------

So, a pseudo Mini-Starship? Well not at all ready for Mars I feel.

These used stages could be use in a singular fashion or in serial or parallel methods,
if given new propellants.

While the Merlins and their fuel are not as efficient as Raptors with Methans, the
fuel can go on longer missions with less boil off. Not true for the Oxygen.

------

I see two mission methods I like for the Moon.

Presuming that Falcon 9, 2nd stages could be retrieved to a mission to orbit...

1) I really think that a "Dear Moon" profile3 could fit with this. Use a aerodynamic
Starhip to push an assembly of Falcon 9-2's around the Moon, along with a payload.
The Starship just loops, does not stop, gets a, (Mostly), "Free Return" to the Earth's
upper atmosphere. The Falcon9-2's, then brake the payload to Lunar orbit. Some other
device comes up and gets the payload and brings it down to the Moon. Lunar Starship??

2) An assembly of Falcon 9=2's, actually brings the payload down to the Lunar surface.

1 is preschool, and 2 brings things a bit futher along.

Eventually this could lead to a proper Mini-Starship's foundations. That, I suppose would
depend on results descovered in reality.

Done.

Void · 2021-09-06 16:23:15

Well, I started this topic, so that it could acomodate various space hardware
antipated without the dreaded "FFO Cipot" death blows.

So, here is "The Angry Astronaut" on ULA/Vulcan.

I posted this video to another topic yesterday:
https://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=th … D2E4E8EDD3

I really like the idea of using an aerodynamic Starship with Methalox, to launch
a "Centaur?" device with a payload to a Moon swing around. You don't land the
Starship or even stop it in orbit, rather, you disconnect from the ULA Hydrolox
device, and go back to atmospheric breaking around or onto Earth. The ULA device
stops the payload to orbit, or even lands it on the Moon. You may notice that I
am not mentioning Mars, (Until now). While I agree that Mars Direct and Moon
Direct are likely quite separate, I do feel that if you can go to the Moon with
hardware and do stuff, then you can be pretty close to what you need to go to Mars.

Anyway, while I want to see ULA devize things that might be considered to be Lunar
Mini-Starship devices, I still support the SpaceX Lunar Starship. It may or may not
pass up and down in Lunar orbit, but it is really a gem as far as deliving a one
time load to the Lunar surface, and also becomming part of Lunar habitaion.

There may not be as much bad blood between SpaceX and ULA and NASA might insist that
they both work with it, (I think almost certainly), so I am excited about the
potential combinations.

I don't agree with "The Angry Astronaut" that there is likely to be no Carbon on the
Moon. I have read that there is almost as much CO in Lunar ice as H20.

Next, I think I am interested in "Terran-R" Another potential "Mini-Starship", at
least for LEO.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2021-09-06 16:24:41)

Void · 2021-09-06 18:54:40

https://www.relativityspace.com/rockets
Quote:

INSPIRED BY NATURE
DESIGNED FOR THE FUTURE
Terran R has unique aerodynamic features with algorithmically generated and optimized structures. Relativity’s proprietary 3D printing process is enabled by software and data-driven manufacturing, exotic 3D printed materials, and unique design geometries that are not possible with traditional manufacturing, driving a faster rate of compounding progress and iteration in the industry.

Supposedly about the class of Falcon 9 + ~20%

Don't know if it could evolve into more than an LEO device. Probably either an upgrade of it or a successor device, if this company makes it.

Sounds like they can really build a light weight device.

-----

Jarvis of Blue Origin next, I guess.

Done.

Void · 2021-09-06 19:00:42

Project Jarvis:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cgl6Wd09ZTM

It is not clear if the 2nd stage of Jarvis will have wings or flaps or something else.

If created this device would be less than Starship in size but perhaps greater than a Mini-Starship as once considered once upon a time by Elon Musk and promoted by Robert Zubrin.

Done.

Void · 2021-09-06 19:06:09

Neutron Rocket, Rocket Lab,

Is of interest, may lead to good things, but rather small, but a great thing to exist.

https://www.rocketlabusa.com/rockets/neutron/

Big Hopes.

Done.

Void · 2022-06-27 18:15:41

I am thinking about Relativity Space today as I understand they are close to testing the Terran-1

Of course I want the Terran-R

https://spacecraft.fandom.com/wiki/Terran_R_(Rocket)
Quote:

Terran R (Rocket)
VIEW SOURCE
Terran R transparent background.png
Terran R is a fully reusable, completely 3D-printed MLLV orbital rocket in development by Relativity Space, intended to make it's maiden launch in 2024. It is a member of the Terran family of rockets. It's look and design is very reminiscent of the SpaceX Starship system, which is also fully reusable, however in terms of capabilities it is more comparable to the Falcon 9 in payload capacity.
The name is similar to it's predecessor, Terran 1, but the "R" most likely stands for "reusable".

Images: https://www.bing.com/images/search?q=Te … HoverTitle

So, I will speculate that a Depot in orbit could fill this thing using much less than what Starship needs.

And this then could more or less be Dr. Zubrin's "Mini-Starship".

I am guessing that it could be suitable for Moon operations, and maybe even Mars?

I am thinking that for Missions to Mars many different vehicles could be in operation including perhaps the Centaur.

I really think that there should be a consideration of an orbital refinery, largely automated that could manufacture propellants in orbit. The solar energy is better there and you don't have to land the refinery. It might be sent by a method that does not use aero braking.

But I guess the penalty would be that you would have to fly a ship up and down bringing water and CO2 to the Refinery.

But then the propellant operation on the surface can be scaled down.

I would say that perhaps some starships would not be landed on Mars at all.

In the case of a global dust storm, then the humans might be flown up to those starships to wait it out.

So the highest priority would be to get lots of water up to orbit.

The Starships to stay in orbit, might have arrived by Ballistic Capture without crew, and might not have landing legs.
If they were intended to go back to Earth, then they might have a heatshield and flaps methods. But if not, they would be relatively light. And they would be good for checking out Phobos and Deimos.

Those Starships might not even have Raptors. Maybe they would have Ion propulsion, perhaps using Argon, which could be gotten from Mars. If they were solar powered, then after arriving they would use their electric power to start refining propellants in orbit.

I am tempted to suggest that Centaurs using Hydro Lox, could boost the spaceships to return to Earth. Maybe only a Terran-R would return.

Done

Last edited by Void (2022-06-27 18:42:11)

Void · 2022-07-06 09:51:03

Something about Relativity Space, from "The Angry Astronaut".

https://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=Th … M%3DHDRSC3

I do want to see this system.

Where Starship will have a great potential value, so will Terran-R be quite useful to what we want.

Done.

Void · 2022-10-19 20:19:06

This may not be too bad an article. I saw a video which I wanted but this may be similar: https://thespacebucket.com/relativity-i … -terran-r/
Quote:

Relativity Is Continuing To Make Progress On Terran R

Quote:

Relativity believes in a future where interplanetary life fundamentally expands the possibilities for human experience. In realizing this audacious vision, the long-term goal is to upgrade humanity’s industrial base on Earth and on Mars. They believe in a more inspired future with people thriving on Earth and on Mars. In the early days of settlement, intelligent automation and lightweight, compact 3D printing are fundamental technologies needed to quickly establish a new society with scarce resources. Terran R is supposed to become one of the first steps in this process.

So, they do intend to operate on the Earth, Moon, and Mars. In fact, they intend to be able to build these ships on Mars, and I presume on the Moon as well.

There is a toy I want to contemplate. Think of it as a surfboard for Terran-R (Lunar?), or perhaps eventually for a Lunar Starship.

Literally a Shield to use to slide on the Earth's atmosphere. I would like it to be large, but light, of Stainless Steel, don't want tiles unless absolutely needed.

So, Starship might be able to carry one big enough up for the Terran-R (Lunar?).

Where to travel up to the Earth's orbit, you use staging disposal, I want to consider staging additions. This shield may have electrical propulsion, and so likely solar power. While Lunar Starships may travel to the Moon using chemicals, this would travel using electrical propulsion, to Lunar orbit.

Here I am thinking of a system where the shield travels to the Moon, (Orbital), and upon ships return to Earth, the shield would be attached, and would allow the assembly to aero capture to LEO, or some elliptical orbit.

The Ship and the shield would be refilled, and then each to travel back to the Moon. It may be required to have more than one shield for each ship. And if the ships are not crewed, then it may make several passes at the atmosphere.

My thinking on how the shield survives, is that you minimize the dip into the atmosphere to that which can be tolerated, you make the "Footprint of the shield very large, so that it can surf the atmosphere, and the shield being thin, and of Stainless Steel it can radiate heat though it's back side, and it would have standoffs to keep the ship a bit above it to allow the radiation out to space. I would hope that active cooling would not be required.

The shields propulsion, if it were metal ion propulsion, might be not too bad, I have recently read. Of Course, large scale versions of such engines would have to be creatable.

Maybe it can't be done, but then I want to know why. I know that Orbital Mars probes have aero braked using just solar panels. So why not stainless-steel sheets?

Done.

Last edited by Void (2022-10-19 20:36:39)

Void · 2022-11-30 12:48:14

Well, The Angry Astronaut produced this.

The machine is to have two types of air breathing engines, and a rocket engine. It is interesting. It would be nice if it would work.

Quote:

Canadian Spaceplane flying in 2023! Lunar missions in 2025!? EXCLUSIVE INTERVIEW!
YouTube · 171 views · 1 hr ago · by The Angry Astronaut

https://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=Ca … &FORM=VIRE

https://www.spaceenginesystems.com/

I guess I feel better that there seem to be try activities going on in various parts of the world. That makes it so much harder for space to be abandoned entirely. The USA and others cannot afford to not have something going.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2022-11-30 21:25:02)

SpaceNut · 2022-11-30 20:14:39

At one time we all had hoped that the falcon 9 heavy would morph into a single stage larger core, but we got a monster ship instead and while we are happy that we have seen the Starship launch and land it is that BFR that is the killer that still is in need of a maiden flight or two.

SpaceNut · 2023-01-15 12:52:26

To get around the concerns of the BFR/ Starship why not scale it down for a lunar mission such as to give the means to get to the moon without refueling the monster that is currently in a holding pattern.

Void · 2023-01-15 13:32:09

I feel similar, as a single Starship propellant version should do some help for that if it could refill a Starship Mini such as Terran-R.

It would be good to have starships deliver mass bulk to a main base on the Moon, but then as I recall Dr. Johnson may have said, we might want to have lighter missions that can either exchange crews to bases, or explore special spots on the Moon.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Terran_R

I am guessing SpaceX could get some coin for helping with that.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2023-01-15 13:33:35)

SpaceNut · 2023-01-15 15:25:05

Currently the plan from Nasa is to use the full size for the gateway with a different ship for lunar landing from there never to come back to earth.

That is the one Nasa gave a prototyping funding and cut all others out of the plan that was what they have originally wanted in an Apollo redux lander design larger version.

Nasa has done it to themselves at this point delaying anything going to mars that is not some version of the SLS Orion combination with gateway like modules of the ISS leveraged design.

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#1 2021-09-01 09:48:29

Starship Mini, Other

#2 2021-09-01 10:56:04

Re: Starship Mini, Other

#3 2021-09-01 13:13:47

Re: Starship Mini, Other

#4 2021-09-03 10:19:31

Re: Starship Mini, Other

#5 2021-09-06 16:23:15

Re: Starship Mini, Other

#6 2021-09-06 18:54:40

Re: Starship Mini, Other

#7 2021-09-06 19:00:42

Re: Starship Mini, Other

#8 2021-09-06 19:06:09

Re: Starship Mini, Other

#9 2022-06-27 18:15:41

Re: Starship Mini, Other

#10 2022-07-06 09:51:03

Re: Starship Mini, Other

#11 2022-10-19 20:19:06

Re: Starship Mini, Other

#12 2022-11-30 12:48:14

Re: Starship Mini, Other

#13 2022-11-30 20:14:39

Re: Starship Mini, Other

#14 2023-01-15 12:52:26

Re: Starship Mini, Other

#15 2023-01-15 13:32:09

Re: Starship Mini, Other

#16 2023-01-15 15:25:05

Re: Starship Mini, Other

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