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#51 2022-12-04 12:01:59

SpaceNut
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From: New Hampshire
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Re: Geothermal and Geothermal Battery (Changed Title 12/21/23)

Habitat for humanity comes to mind for housing for the low income as well as community solar arrays but these need organizations and sustainability to make them not a 1 and done efforts.

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#52 2022-12-04 15:06:52

Void
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Re: Geothermal and Geothermal Battery (Changed Title 12/21/23)

You might want to look into "Index» Terraformation» Venus" Post #442, https://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=Ae … M%3DHDRSC3

I think it is likely that we can agree that local storage may reduce the amount of electric energy that has to flow though power lines.

This wind thing may also fit into more populated locations.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2022-12-04 15:09:14)


Done.

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#53 2022-12-04 17:33:27

SpaceNut
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Re: Geothermal and Geothermal Battery (Changed Title 12/21/23)

We actually did cover the thermal storage before

repost shows that we have many types and or means to store the heat energy for later and depending on the collection system we can and are able to change what methods are used.

The size of the rocks are important to the levels of heat curve that you are desiring from the capture of the heat that is coming into the system. Typical size is 3/4" to 2" size for the capture for the air circulating system to give off the heat over a period of time.

https://inspectapedia.com/Energy/Rock_B … Design.php

AE-89.fig1.jpg

Of course, smooth larger rocks can also be used in a design.

mixed type storagecross-section-MIT-LDES-1536x737.png

Of course with solar concentrated reflected energy the design would be altered versus other heat sources.

http://www.scienceasia.org/2010.36.n3/scias36_237.pdf
A rock fills based solar thermal energy storage system for housing

1-s2.0-S0973082615001052-gr1.jpg

Performance of a Pebble Bed Thermal Storage Integrated with Concentrating Parabolic Solar Collector for Cooking4238549.fig.001.svgz

Changing the media type can also be done to improve the collection retention system as well
Zeolite thermal storage retains heat indefinitely, absorbs four times more heat than waterzeolite-heat-storage-pellets-640x353.jpg

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#54 2022-12-04 17:35:34

SpaceNut
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From: New Hampshire
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Re: Geothermal and Geothermal Battery (Changed Title 12/21/23)

Yes the wind and PV panels can create heat just as much as generating from burning just about everything in a changer that has an extraction of that heat before it goes up the chimney so that it can enter the storage unit.

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#55 2022-12-07 12:28:38

Void
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Re: Geothermal and Geothermal Battery (Changed Title 12/21/23)

From "Index» Terraformation» Worlds, and World Engine type terraform stuff.", Post #658.


This could be translated to other worlds such as Earth:

So, if slabs of ice are to be converted to seas, cold or even warm in some cases, the need to clear the regolith overburden will exist, and to make something useful out of it would be sensible.

So Pyramids.

But how hot could the innards of such pyramids be? 

Yes, there is also hot bricks under development: https://www.freethink.com/energy/brick-heat-batteries
They think that they can work with a lot of high temperature processes.
Quote:

Brick batteries may be a key to decarbonizing heavy industry
Rondo Energy wants to store renewable energy as heat.
By B. David Zarley
September 23, 2022

So, it should be possible to make bricks and I suppose concrete, and steel, so it might be possible to make a chamber inside of a "Packed Pyramid Structure".  Inside of such a chamber might be bricks or maybe just stones.

This query: "Pictures of rocks in Martian regolith"

General Response: https://www.bing.com/search?q=Pictures+ … 26a41a1060

So, some soils above ice slabs may contain rocks, so you would sort them out and use the to fill a chamber to store high heat.  That could be inside of a packed pyramid.

On Earth, however piles of dirt over a vault would probably need a protective roof due to weather.  Not so much true on Mars.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2022-12-07 12:31:24)


Done.

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#56 2022-12-21 09:55:04

Void
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Re: Geothermal and Geothermal Battery (Changed Title 12/21/23)

This is a set of energy options and how they might work together.  Geothermal and Geostorage are included: http://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.php … 03#p204303

Done.


Done.

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#57 2022-12-26 19:39:25

SpaceNut
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Re: Geothermal and Geothermal Battery (Changed Title 12/21/23)

Based on the post 11 map geothermal energy derived from the earth is not practical due to depth and such little area to get any from.

Calling thermal storage in the ground crosses the heat pump and other such media types means we are inputting energy to create the thermal source to store.

Those energy inputs for thermal storage are quite possible even here in not so sunny NH.

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#58 2022-12-27 08:40:33

tahanson43206
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Re: Geothermal and Geothermal Battery (Changed Title 12/21/23)

For SpaceNut re thermal energy storage vs chemical energy storage (inspired by post #57)

If I understand your post correctly, you have imagined a reservoir of heat you build up in a location under the ground on your property.

If I understand your post correctly, you would do this in a "practical" way.  I would like to note that what is "practical" for one person is NOT practical for another.

In other words, the word "practical" is NOT equal in meaning to each reader. 

It may not be "practical" for you to do what I am imagining here, but it might be "practical" for someone else to do so.

I went back to re-read Void's introduction of this topic.

It is not guaranteed that I understand Void's intent, but on the optimistic assumption I do, here is a scenario....

SpaceNut secures a loan to build an energy storage facility on his property.

Unlike a storage facility for chemical energy (ie, gas, oil, etc) this storage pod would contain material that is good at holding thermal energy.

The NewMars forum archive contains a number of posts which record data about materials suitable for thermal energy storage.

The idea (as I understand it) would be to store thermal energy in the container under ground when temperatures are elevated, so as to be able to draw from that store when temperatures are below normal.

Since you (SpaceNut) have reported temperatures of 50 degrees Fahrenheit in a home with only electric heating, I can imagine that if you had a thermal energy nest egg under the ground in your property, you could use flow of liquid from a radiator in your home down into the thermal energy storage pod for temperature increase, and return to the radiator inside the house.  The amount of heat drawn from the reservoir would depend upon the rate of flow of liquid through the system.

This entire operation could be performed with electricity, since it would be a modified heat pump system.

So! A question for you!  Is there sufficient excess energy available at your location in New Hampshire during warm months, to build up a store of thermal energy to fill the house to 70 degrees during colder weather?

I assume that either a solar panel or a solar trough could be used to harvest solar energy during the hot season,

It is not at all clear to me (at this point) which alternative would cost less to build and to maintain.

Furthermore, either option might conflict with zoning regulations in your neighborhood.

Trees (and other plants) are little machines for storing solar energy as chemical energy.

Perhaps some of the ideas I have seen (and in this forum as well) for solar "panels" that look like natural leaves might be a solution that would meet local codes.

(th)

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#59 2022-12-27 08:57:29

tahanson43206
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Re: Geothermal and Geothermal Battery (Changed Title 12/21/23)

For SpaceNut .... elsewhere in the forum, in other topics, we have discussed the pros and cons of managing income vs outflow to even out the fluctuations over an Earth year.  In particular, we discussed the advantage of leasing an automobile so that the costs of ownership/use/maintenance are evened out over time.

In the present discussion, here in Void's topic, I see an opportunity to even out the flow of monetary resources for home heating.  In homes heated by natural gas, the natural gas provider often offers an even-it-out option, and I've been taking advantage of that option for decades.  The cost of gas to the home during summer is higher than it would be without the evening process, but the cost of gas in the winter is lower than it would be without the evening option.

My observation has been that the local gas provider has used computer technology to make remarkably accurate guesses, so that the annual reset often finds a very small addition, and even occasionally a return of excess payment.

The word I was waiting for finally showed up ... "budget" ... The local gas company offers a budget payment plan, and I find that it is so well managed that I seldom have more that a very small adjustment at the end of the fiscal year, and occasionally the gas company returns a few dollars.

The budget plan is a ** very ** attractive option if the goal of the home owner is to try to avoid distress during cold weather.

The "budget" plan might be extended to your thermal energy storage idea .... It would (probably) take computer technology to work out the needed thermal energy storage to provide 70 degree temperatures inside a home in New Hampshire during the cold season, but whatever that amount may be, it should ** then ** be possible to work out the size of an underground thermal storage pod (of some kind) capable of providing a comfortable level of heat for the entire cold season.

A home owner who uses all-electric heat to keep a home warm has an advantage, in that the cost of the heating could be measured easily, by investing in a piece of equipment that can record electric current consumed by an electric furnace (or radiators (or in-floor pipe radiators)).

That information could then be fed into a computer program (eg, a spreadsheet) to yield the amount of thermal energy created by the electric furnace. The total of that energy is then the amount of energy needed to be stored in the pod.

You could (theoretically) fill your thermal energy pod using solar energy that might be available at your location, or wind energy if you have some, or electric energy from the utility to achieve the storage amount you need for your energy budget.

(th)

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#60 2022-12-27 09:55:25

SpaceNut
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Re: Geothermal and Geothermal Battery (Changed Title 12/21/23)

outdoors boilers can also be made use of to create that thermal pool in the summer as well for use later, continuing to so during the winter months to keep reserves up. Since tank size matters for this we need to calculate how much energy is required for the winter months and at what temperature source is required to produce the heat within the home.
Hot water boilers rise temperatures for either high use heat exchanger or for baseboard direct use.

Continuing with air heat inside using a woodstove here is a stove pipe that does the heat exchange recapture. Of which you can doe fluid capture as well.

https://youtu.be/iGZWx0gwRCo

https://altheatsupply.com/resources/con … r-furnace/

That means the inner core boiler, this temperature is going to remain at 175 degrees, and that's okay. That's what exactly what a boiler should be running, or 180. But most of the outdoor boilers are running at 80.

https://www.mcallisterenergy.com/boiler-temperature/

Pump flow is based on the rooms rise in temperature without a fan is radiant but there are units that would require warmer fluids to make use of a fan to make that rise happen.

Then again, I have a 2-zone issue where the basement is the highest heating loss to contend with as well. Adding insulation inside and out would lower that problem once winter is over and funds are available.

Loans are not possible at this point but possibly self-loan out of a 401K could be if I plan to work that much longer.

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#61 2022-12-27 10:50:39

tahanson43206
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Re: Geothermal and Geothermal Battery (Changed Title 12/21/23)

For SpaceNut re #60

it is fun / encouraging to see you taking up the challenge of creating an energy budget concept that might work in the Real Universe.

The ideal would be an energy store that operates without outside input for a period of time, such as a winter.

At present, all around the world, folks are dealing with winter by consuming energy supplied from outside, and those who are dependent upon certain countries are suffering.

Your initiative here offers the hope of a solution that might be implemented in the United States (for sure) but in other Nations as well.

There are two parallel paths that this topic of Void's might follow going forward ...

The first (which everyone can help to advance) is to keep watch for articles about similar projects anywhere in the world.

the second (which you have already indicated might be a possibility) is to perform the calculations needed.

Elsewhere in the forum, there are posts about a curious material that exists in a natural form, that is able to store thermal energy for extended periods of time.  My recollection is that this material is found in nature, but it may be rare.

A duplicate material that might be made by industrial processes could (presumably) take the place of the natural material, with investment of some energy.  As Calliban keeps reminding us, all useful items contain embedded energy.

This (hypothetical) thermal energy storage material would contain both embedded and stored energy.

A useful figure that you might be able to provide is an accurate estimate of the amount of energy needed to heat the house you have now to 70 degrees.  The amount of energy needed depends (of course) on the outside temperature, so measurements need to be taken over a period of time, with three values in their respective columns:

Inside temperature (eg 70 degrees Fahrenheit) Outside temperature, and energy flow to maintain 70 degrees

The easiest way (that I can think of) is to employ electric radiators inside the home, to create the desired 70 degrees.

The reason this approach is helpful is that the exact flow of electricity can be measured and documented by a combination of a suitable measuring device, and a computer logging machine, so you have a data set to work with.

If you run this system for a winter, you would end up with an exact measure of the amount of thermal energy you need to store in your (hypothetical) thermal energy cache.

Your example would be replicable, and you could (again theoretically) obtain income by building, selling, installing and servicing such systems.

Your natural allies would be furnace vendors around the country, because regardless of the source of energy, the furnace providers will be needed to help to maintain the systems.

Even major corporations like Carrier are potential allies in an enterprise along these lines.

Since no such industry exists today, there is (obviously) a market opportunity for an entrepreneur.

if you think only of yourself, you will end up spending money.

If you think of others and how they could benefit from your invention, they you could end up with sustained income in your retirement years.

(th)

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#62 2022-12-27 18:55:09

SpaceNut
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Re: Geothermal and Geothermal Battery (Changed Title 12/21/23)

Things to keep in mind when ever designing something is the list of requirements and not a wish list that continues to grow as the design is progressed forward.

Since losing power recently that should be taken into account to be able to keep the house warm even when it is disrupted and an idea for how long for a max might be another factoid to bring into focus for the design's requirements. I have been 2 weeks without in the past so that needed to be accounted for.

Another note is the environment that would require anti freezing measures such as where I live during winter. Something similar might be needed in the hot climates to keep it from exceeding operation parameters. As the collector is not a weatherized item it's going to need to be brought under ground under the structure to be brought the distance to the home where it can be saved in the basement in tanks designed for the task to hold in the heat captured. Food gylcol comes to mind as working fluid but then again what is the eventual fluid temperature needs to be brought into focus. Other non-toxic if the tanks are used for freshwater heating use and if they are not other fluids can be used.

As noted earlier other sources of heat can also be employed to the task co joined to the collector to minimize additional hardware and such for operations. The outside boiler comes to mind for wood, but others can be created from other sources of energy that can be burnt to create heat.

One can also augment the system with other sources of power from generators, solar panels, windmills ect. as need arises to make it work when the power companies' lines are down.

From what I remember from the old oil-fired air furnace we used more than 500 but less than 1,000 gallons for the winter months.

So went off to find data to backup what is typical for use. Of course, the search wants to return cost of oil a gallon. October and March (182 days).

Website tries to calculate heating lose rate

https://www.nhes.nh.gov/elmi/products/d … eating.pdf

https://www.townsendtotalenergy.com/how … -use-a-day

https://smoenergy.com/blog/how-much-oil … -in-a-day/

https://www.fuelsnap.com/blog/how-much- … use-a-day/

Keep this in mind as you’re planning for your next heating oil delivery, or if you run out of oil. If you do run out of oil, you can always add 5 or 10 gallons of diesel to your tank. Knowing how long 5 gallons of heating oil will last will help you determine how many trips to the gas station you’ll have to make!

Had to do this more than once.

Avg-GPD-2022-768x300.png

https://blog.smarttouchenergy.com/how-m … ing-winter

An average oil-burning furnace uses somewhere between 0.8 and 1.7 gallons per hour while in operation.

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#63 2022-12-28 17:37:56

SpaceNut
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Re: Geothermal and Geothermal Battery (Changed Title 12/21/23)

tahanson43206 wrote:

For SpaceNut re your post about heating oil in Void's topic....

#62 Today 20:55:09

You really took me back in memory, with your post #62 .... In ca 1952, our family lived in a farm house out in the middle of the country.  There was a coal furnace in the basement, and occasionally Dad loaded it with coal.  What I remember better was the Franklin Stove they installed in the (huge) kitchen.  The family gathered around that stove before turning into ice cold beds in the winter.

I did a quick Google search to refresh my memory of oil furnaces, which we had at several homes later on.  Those did not operate without electricity, unlike the coal furnace, which powered itself due to the flue draft.

Your suggestion of cutting back the scope of the energy storage system to two weeks is understandable but it misses the mark I am trying to set.

The proposal on offer is to bury a thermal energy storage pod under the surface of the property of a private dwelling, and to size the repository to deliver heat for an entire winter.  At this point, we do not have any idea how large such a repository would be, nor do we have more than preliminary ideas what the energy storage media might be.  This forum contains posts by Calliban and others about thermal energy storage.

If you give up too soon, nothing new is accomplished, and all you have is same-old/same-old solutions to consider.

Your figures on the amount of oil needed for a winter would definitely be a starting point.  Your observation about using diesel as a backup for regular heating oil is new to me and it might be appreciated by other readers as well.

In a power outage situation, oil could heat a boiler to drive a small steam engine to drive a small generator, which would be sized to operate the furnace.

The store of oil needs to include that part of the challenge. 

Update a bit later .... The output of the small steam engine is low energy steam .... that is perfect to route through standard steam radiators to contribute to warming the house. 

Update later yet .... vegetable oil, unlike fossil deposit sourced ancient oil, is a renewable resource.

A home heating system designed to handle an entire winter based upon a stash of vegetable oil is completely feasible.

The issue at hand is the inability of many citizens to amass the funds to fill the oil tank before winter.  It is unfortunate this is the case, but that is reality.

In the real Universe, wealthy individuals band together to fund repositories of commodities, and these are dispensed to citizens in little affordable chunks, based (often) on monthly income.

In these cases, budget planning is provided by the wealthy individuals who (together) provide a buffer for those who cannot budget for themselves.

To become wealthy yourself, you would want to band together with others to create a constant flow of commodities to customers who pay by the month, in return for the small payments they may be able to make.

It is worth remembering that on Mars, ** every ** citizen is going to be engaged in the life-and-death sol-to-sol never-ending effort to keep the lights on, the air clean and warm, and fresh clean water in the supply pipes.

We are not too far from that situation on Earth.

Update next day.... vegetable oil appears to be a viable/feasible/practical substitute for fossil-sourced home heating oil.

If you are inspired to support the present initiative, please see if you can figure out how much vegetable oil (take soy bean oil as a model) might be able to sustain a home in New Hampshire for a winter.  Include both power and heating in your projection.  The power is needed (at a minimum) to power the furnace and fans to move hot air, so a small steam engine driving a generator would appear to be a reasonable addition to the mix.  The output from the steam engine can be fed into steam radiators, so the thermal energy can be thoroughly rung out before the water is returned to the steam engine for another round.

(th)

Your reminiscing of the days of old is just what the other topic needs as it reminds everyone that high tech is not needed.
Step one identifies the day-to-day quantity and then scale up to fore fill the duration. Knowing that anything that requires power is an issue if you make use of those higher tech electrical items that one uses now to control many functions.

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#64 2022-12-28 19:40:57

SpaceNut
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Re: Geothermal and Geothermal Battery (Changed Title 12/21/23)

What is common to all working fluids is the pipe flow rates. It comes down to the diameter and length of the pipe which is chosen as well as the materials cable of the temperature delta's that we are looking at. It's that temperature rise that is Sensores so that we know what we have after a period of time which aids in getting the work out of the system that we desire.


https://www.omnicalculator.com/physics/pipe-flow

https://www.gigacalculator.com/calculat … ulator.php

That said once we have a number then we need a pump that can handle the condition set up. Which has a check valve or electrical shutoff to keep back pressure from heating to cause a switch of flow direction.

https://highperformancehvac.com/boiler- … pe-sizing/

Flow Rates – Boiler Piping Flow & Pipe Sizing Chart       
Pipe Size    Flow Rate for Copper    Flow Rate for Steel
½”            1 ½ GPM (Gallons per Minute)    2 GPM (Gallons per Minute)
¾”            4 GPM (Gallons per Minute)            4 GPM (Gallons per Minute)
1”            8 GPM (Gallons per Minute)            8 GPM (Gallons per Minute)
1 ¼”          14 GPM (Gallons per Minute)          16 GPM (Gallons per Minute)
1 ½”          22 GPM (Gallons per Minute)          25 GPM (Gallons per Minute)
2”          45 GPM (Gallons per Minute)          50 GPM (Gallons per Minute)
2 ½”          85 GPM (Gallons per Minute)          80 GPM (Gallons per Minute)
3”            130 GPM (Gallons per Minute)    140 GPM (Gallons per Minute)
4”        300 GPM (Gallons per Minute)

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#65 2022-12-28 19:48:41

tahanson43206
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Re: Geothermal and Geothermal Battery (Changed Title 12/21/23)

For SpaceNut ....

Thanks for your continuing investigation of considerations for flow of fluids through a solar trough system.

It seems to me that a small amount of automation would be helpful.  If the goal is to heat the fluid to some desired temperature, then sensors can measure temperature and pressure, and allow fluid to leave the tube when conditions are right.  As hot fluid leaves the output end, cold fluid can be admitted (or more likely pushed into) the cavity.

Please keep watch for any news/information you may find about direct production of hydrogen/oxygen from a Solar Trough system. The output of such a system is NOT a hot fluid, but instead, it is a flow of the separated gases.

How that separation might take place is certainly a mystery (to me for sure) but the NewMars archive include posts that hint it might be possible.  Recently Calliban said he is investigating a possible method for using Solar energy to separate oxygen and hydrogen directly, and thus cutting out the middleman of electrolysis.

(th)

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#66 2022-12-28 20:04:28

SpaceNut
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Re: Geothermal and Geothermal Battery (Changed Title 12/21/23)

pipe dream of 800c or less as the answer is https://www.thenakedscientists.com/arti … and-oxygen
2,000 c plus....this requires a lot smaller reaction area than a trough, so this becomes this
071416_SolarReserve.jpg

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#67 2022-12-28 23:08:03

SpaceNut
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Re: Geothermal and Geothermal Battery (Changed Title 12/21/23)

Adding content as it relates to solar evacuated tube use to store during the summer for winter use.
A house design with this in mind might help with sizing the storage and collection system

Home Heating with Evacuated Tubes -This article describes a home built by someone in Big Bar Lake in BC. Approx. 200 kms NW from Kamloops. The homeowner planned right from the start to try and heat the house with solar water Heating.

Big%20Bar%20Lake.jpg

page has lots of data to make use of.

https://www.solazone.com.au/solar-hotwa … ated-tube/

https://prairiesunsolar.com/solar-thermal-hot-water/

Flat plate panels are different but have the ability to heat water just fine.
How a Solar Flat Plate System workssolar-diagram-1b.png

https://useesolar.com/flat-plate-solar-panel/

32 square feet or 3 square meters, weighing between 100-200 kilograms. one square foot flat at the panel, they will produce about two gallons per day to well over 70oC temperature. At the same time, a 30-20 square feet panel can produce 60 gallons of heated water with a standard hot water storage tank.

Sizing the tank to panel heat capability
https://www.latitude51solar.ca/solar-wa … ater-tanks

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#68 2022-12-29 07:49:29

tahanson43206
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Re: Geothermal and Geothermal Battery (Changed Title 12/21/23)

For SpaceNut .... This topic is about storing thermal energy underground.

That could be achieved by placing the Solar Heat Exchange Tank under ground, in the scenario you showed us in Post #67

It sure is good (for all of us) that there are individuals willing to make the investments we can see in post #67, to attempt to prove out a design concept.

I am sure there have been similar precursor designs that informed the home builder.

A design consideration is how to remove snow from the pipe array without damaging the pipes.  One way to do that is to cover the array with a tarp before a snow fall, and remove the tarp (and snow) (gently) after the fall.   Sweeping is an option, but pulling a tarp is a lot more efficient.  In addition, and more importantly, using a tarp collects sleet/ice as well as snow.  Sleet (obviously) cannot be removed with a broom.

I've been using a version of that idea to protect steps at front and back of the house.

(th)

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#69 2022-12-29 10:36:03

SpaceNut
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Re: Geothermal and Geothermal Battery (Changed Title 12/21/23)

no need to remove snow as it melts off due to the black absorption of the evacuated tubes, but yes brush off when it's still powdery is best if you get several feet or add a heating element tape to them much as you would the ice shield on a roof.

yes, tanks can be underground or in a basement depends on purpose of the heat and building of insulated walls to keep conduction heat lose as low as possible.

I got to go back through the builditsolar site to see what else I can find to repurpose into a plausible design for winter heating. I am looking to augment the collecting lighthouse design with solar as well but still doing site reviews to see if amounts are worth the cost.

https://builditsolar.com/SiteSurvey/site_survey.htm

Edit found what I was looking for and now to study its content
How Much Collector Area Do I need to Heat My Home?
https://builditsolar.com/References/HowMuch/HowMuch.htm

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#70 2022-12-29 23:33:31

SpaceNut
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Re: Geothermal and Geothermal Battery (Changed Title 12/21/23)

how-to-size-solar-thermal-space-heating-system

There are so many variables: storage size, collector array size, expansion tank size, piping size, heat exchanger size and heat load requirements.

collector array ratio is 2 square feet for every 10 square feet of floor space on the main floor of the building.

heat storage tank (liquid, not sand) ratio is between 1.2 gallons and 2 gallons per square foot of collector array.

https://www.viridiansolar.co.uk/resourc … izing.html
Graph%20diminishing%20returns%20in%20solar%20panel%20area.jpg

https://www.homebuilding.co.uk/advice/s … mal-panels

In the UK, there is a closed loop of fluid between the panel and the storage cylinder that contains anti-freeze — generally a 50/50 water/glycol mix. This means the fluid in the panels never actually reaches the taps in the home. This is known as an indirect system.
There is a small pump that circulates fluid and it is usually triggered by a temperature sensor that will operate the pump (and move the fluid to the cylinder) if the panel is at least four degrees warmer than the temperature of the water in the storage cylinder.

Indirect systems typically feature a twin coil storage cylinder. It's also worth noting that the cylinder needs to be bigger than the standard cylinder — typically 200 to 350 litres. A large hot water storage cylinder allows the system to retain as much heat as possible whilst the sun is shining.

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#71 2022-12-30 15:55:01

tahanson43206
Moderator
Registered: 2018-04-27
Posts: 18,177

Re: Geothermal and Geothermal Battery (Changed Title 12/21/23)

This post is for Void's Geostored Energy topic .... it reveals plans to store hydrogen underground on a massive scale.

https://www.yahoo.com/news/company-brin … 11099.html

This company is planning large scale hydrogen storage in underground purpose built salt caverns.

The will be located between 3000 and 2000 feet underground, so I deduce they are vertical shafts, but would appreciate any further detail our members might be able to find.

Biloxi Sun Herald

This new company will bring zero-emission energy to MS, creating hundreds of jobs
Jenni Camhi

Fri, December 30, 2022 at 11:13 AM EST

Hy Stor Energy is building a green hydrogen hub in Mississippi that will generate zero emission hydrogen energy while also creating a new industry with hundreds of jobs and economic growth for the area, according to the company.

The project will be the largest of its kind in the United States, and will produce clean energy at scale that can be used as an alternative to fossil fuels in industries that are hard to decarbonize.

Hy Stor is Jackson-based but has land across the state, all the way down to their office in Gulfport. The company has acquired over 70,000 acres from Jackson south to the Gulf Coast, which will be used for green hydrogen energy production and storage.

What is green hydrogen?

Green hydrogen is a form of renewable energy that is produced by splitting a water molecule into its hydrogen and oxygen parts via electrolysis. When this process is powered using renewable energy sources, such as wind and solar, it has zero carbon and zero methane emissions. Hydrogen energy can be stored for long periods of time and used during extreme weather events, when the power may be out for days at a time, and can also be transported over long distances.

Green hydrogen produced by the Mississippi Clean Hydrogen Hub will be used to support business, industrial, transportation, and utility sectors across the state. Though the project will start in Mississippi, Hy Stor plans to distribute hydrogen energy to neighboring states, then the eastern U.S., and eventually internationally.

Hy Stor’s Chief Commercial Officer Claire Behar said hydrogen energy is an essential part of bringing flexibility and reliability to the energy grid because it can be used as an alternative to fossil fuels or electricity. It will also bring economic growth and job opportunities to Mississippi while providing diversity of energy supply.

“The development and commercialization phases of the Mississippi Clean Hydrogen Hub are expected to create hundreds of new jobs and attract new businesses to the state, diversifying the state’s economy while also driving innovation and empowering our workforce with quality, high-paying jobs,” Behar said.

A rendering of the building where electrolysis, the process where hydrogen energy is created by splitting a water molecule into its hydrogen and oxygen parts, will take place.

Behar added that the hydrogen energy sector is an opportunity “to build upon the existing skill sets of those working in the fossil fuel industry.”

Hy Stor is partnering with the Port of Gulfport and Hancock County Port and Harbor Commission (HCPHC) to help bring renewable hydrogen energy to the Gulf Coast region. HCPHC is home to Port of Bienville Industrial Park and Stennis International Airport. This partnership will allow Port Bienville to be the first Gulf Region port to use renewable hydrogen fuel in its daily operations.

“Our goal is to attract companies that have a strategic interest in being a part of a clean hydrogen facility and create an ecosystem of entrepreneurship and innovation in the Mississippi Gulf Coast,” Behar said.

How is the energy stored?
The company will store the hydrogen energy it makes in salt caverns, where it can be kept for months or years at a time and used as needed.

“These salt caverns are going to be purpose-built for the storage of hydrogen,” Behar said. “Salt cavern geology is only found in specific locations around the world, and the Mississippi Gulf Coast is one of them. Salt caverns provide that multi-day, multi-week energy storage that can be dispatched on demand.”

Hy Stor has four salt caverns fully permitted and ten under their control in total. One is in Louisiana, and the rest are in Mississippi.

The salt caverns sit over 3,000 feet below the surface and have a height of 1,000 feet.

“It’s like the Eiffel Tower sitting underground or the Empire State Building. That’s the magnitude that we’re talking about,” Behar said. “So people ask ‘why store underground?’ and it’s because you can store magnitudes larger volume underground than above ground. And that makes the most economic and safe solution for storing hydrogen. It’s far away from the hydrosphere, the biosphere, and communities.”

Why Mississippi?

Mississippi is a strategic geographic location for the company because of the state’s naturally occurring geology and its proximity to existing distribution channels, such as the Mississippi River, deep water ports, interstate highways, railways, and gas and electric transmission lines. Having access to ports is going to be crucial for the company as they grow, expand, and seek to transport energy internationally.

“It’s really all about that suitable geology and then interconnected critical access to shipping and logistics corridors like the Mississippi River and deep water ports in the Gulf,” Behar said. “We really see green hydrogen developing into a major global market, where I believe strongly that the United States is going to play a dominant role as a global green hydrogen supplier and exporter.”

Construction will start next year for the Mississippi Clean Hydrogen Hub, which will be fully built by 2026.

A rendering of the solar and wind energy in Hy Stor’s hydrogen production facility that will be used to power the plant and the electrolysis that will generate hydrogen energy.

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(th)

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#72 2022-12-30 17:25:02

SpaceNut
Administrator
From: New Hampshire
Registered: 2004-07-22
Posts: 29,312

Re: Geothermal and Geothermal Battery (Changed Title 12/21/23)

https://themechanicalengineering.com/th … -material/

https://material-properties.org/heat-ca … materials/

I did do a site review looking at the sunrise and set for the 2 charts in post #2 to see what I can do and was not seeing due to shape of the hill and its alignment to where I can build, and the sun seems to have only a winter angle all year long with the summer just being higher above the horizon for a better collection of its power due to trees.
Since we need both temperature and volume to be saved from the summer for winter use it would seem that a liquid media is the best option to make use of to collect and store that heat with. The solar concentrating seems to be the best since there is no tracking involved other than a 90-degree movement of the trough relative to where it rises and sets daily.

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#73 2023-01-01 11:10:40

SpaceNut
Administrator
From: New Hampshire
Registered: 2004-07-22
Posts: 29,312

Re: Geothermal and Geothermal Battery (Changed Title 12/21/23)

Yesterday evening I took a Styrofoam cup that had a similar look to the lighthouse shape and start to tinker with it with the site map angles so as to see how it might look and operate on my site.

The cups size is 1 diameter at the bottom, 3 diameters high with the top opening to drink out of being 2 diameters.
Since the site seems to have a winter only angles for where the sun comes over the horizon and sets behind the trees, I made use of that to plot where to cut out the opening and provided the marking template so that when the cup is upside down its stable with the large opening being at the ground with the smaller diameter of 1 at the top.

As with concentration of reflection the inside wall will be covered with a shiny surface to aid in the suns collection power. Due to apertures opening to face the sun a rotation of just 20 degrees either side of high noon would be sufficient for tracking of the sun.

I have seen a self-orientating solar panel motor control that had no complexity to possibly make use of to make the tracker possible on Youtube that used small toy sized panel and motor that worked quite well. So, a sort of microwave rotating table might be possible to keep alignment possible for the lighthouse structure.

It may also be possible to tilt the central collection pipe or flat panel collectors as well with a similar system place in the focal area of the reflection zone.

This one seems to fit the lighthouse tower
Video of a Cool DIY Solar Tracker Self Powered No Electronics - How it Works

This one would be more for a flat solar panel array
Video of a DIY Solar Tracking System Inspired by NASA (Parker Solar Probe)

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#74 2023-01-01 18:05:10

tahanson43206
Moderator
Registered: 2018-04-27
Posts: 18,177

Re: Geothermal and Geothermal Battery (Changed Title 12/21/23)

The article at the link below provides an over view of prospects for political support of geothermal energy projects.

https://www.yahoo.com/news/meet-renewab … 00532.html

The overall assessment is that while there ** is ** support for geothermal projects, the funding is just a "drop in the bucket" compared to other energy activities.

Despite the present difficulty, the article includes a prediction that geothermal projects will become significant in future.

One detail I thought was interesting ... permitting apparently takes 7 (seven) years...

Many companies don't see a need to deal with delay of that magnitude.

(th)

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#75 2023-01-01 19:29:46

Calliban
Member
From: Northern England, UK
Registered: 2019-08-18
Posts: 3,581

Re: Geothermal and Geothermal Battery (Changed Title 12/21/23)

Delays appear to be driven by concerns with ground water contamination and seismic instability.  Both valid concerns.  I think another problem is the nature of the resource.  Temperature increases linearly with depth.  But the cost of sinking wells is not linear with increasing depth.  It increases 'exponentially' with increasing depth.  Geothermal wells are centralised heat sources that are more practical in most places as bulk sources of low grade heat than they are for electricity production.  But using geothermal in this way is difficult because heat must then be piped through a network covering towns or concentrations of buildings.  Building that network is capital intensive.  There are places where district heating has been succesful.  Where ever there exists a compact urban arrangement with a requirement for heating, district heating is a potential solution if the residents are foresighted enough to make the upfront investment.  Geothermal energy fits well into this business model, with most countries possessing resources that could be developed for this need.  There are times in life where people simply need to band together and make long term investments.

Last edited by Calliban (2023-01-01 19:31:12)


"Plan and prepare for every possibility, and you will never act. It is nobler to have courage as we stumble into half the things we fear than to analyse every possible obstacle and begin nothing. Great things are achieved by embracing great dangers."

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