Slavery

Terraformer · 2022-11-15 15:56:09

kbd,

I don't have kids? I decided a decade ago that getting married and having children would NOT be appropriate in my situation, WHATEVER route I pursue in living with it (as it is, I'm pretty much aroace anyway -- it's hard to understand people who are into the whole sex thing, but hey, however you analyse things from your perspective). I don't want to see such situations happening either, which is why I don't think gender dysphorics should just repress it and try to live a sex-typical life. Too many do that, start families, and then tear their families apart. The sooner people accept that that's not a viable route, the fewer families suffer.

The world may involve more than me, but it definitely involves me. I'm not willing to suffer to uphold your gender ideology, not sorry. My brain is wired such that testosterone screws it up badly and causes me to experience quite a lot of anxiety and be on the verge of a meltdown most days. That went away once I blocked its effects. Which AFAICT is the opposite of the typical male experience but hey, I can only go on my own experience here.

As for DNA... some animals don't use XY or even WZ sex determination system. We don't say they don't have sexes because there's no genetic difference between males and females. It's phenotype that matters.

EDIT: But again, I don't like to talk about this, it's a major aspect of my life and identity and having it torn apart by others isn't a particularly pleasant experience. I've already done plenty of that myself (which is also unpleasant, but necessary).

Last edited by Terraformer (2022-11-15 15:57:27)

kbd512 · 2022-11-15 16:16:53

Terraformer,

I don't think people should have to repress who they are, either. Even so, societies also function on the norms, not the margins. America wasn't created to cater to the desires of kings and queens, for example.

Nobody is asking you to view the world the way I view it, nor would I ever suggest such a thing. An echo chamber of the same opinions is boring as hell and requires no deeper thinking, which makes society weaker as a result. That said, anything sufficiently self-destructive is intolerable if applied to a large enough swath of society.

We're talking about human DNA, not the DNA of other animals. This entire thread is about human treatment of other humans.

I don't take issue with how you identify yourself. You seem to equate your personal experience with an entirely different issue, which is weaponization of gender, sex, religion, politics, etc. There's more than a little of that going on in America. I'm guessing nobody told you that you were transgender in grammar school, did they?

Terraformer · 2022-11-15 16:46:34

I didn't go to grammar school. I went to... well let's not go back there. It was "special education". Very dark time in my life. But no, no-one told me, it was a thing I figured out over the course of my childhood.

I take issue with the weaponisation of these matters *because they directly affect me*. I'm not interested in the culture wars, but unfortunately the culture wars refuse to reciprocate. Best option I suppose is the Swiss option of attacking anyone who comes near whatever side they are on. Or perhaps we could call it the Mercutio option -- a curse on all who fight dumb fights, for dumb they will become.

America wasn't created to cater to the desires of kings and queens, for example.

America wasn't created to cater to the desires of normies, either That's its great strength. It's not (or not supposed to be) as ossified as the Old World. America thrives on weirdos.

Still, fairy food is not for mortals. I agree 80, 90% of the population should follow a roughly similar life path of what works. That just doesn't work for some of us though, and we need to be free to cut our own trails, which will sometimes lead to treasure and sometimes to a tigers mouth. All things are permissible, not all things are advisable. There are a few people who can handle paying wholesale spot prices for domestic electricity... and many people who will go bankrupt if they try. I do not know how to throw out the everyone is equal messaging that leads to people following the new trails to their doom.

And humility is the beginning of wisdom. That includes epistemic humility (showing my Slate Star Codex links there, sigh). If you have infinite wishes, the way to avoid the monkey's paw is to wish for things in small increments that can be reversed if they don't prove advantageous. Probe reality with caution. In the context of gender dysphoria, that means not running down a path someone else has laid, instead trying out things one by one to see if they help. IDK the situation of the person you know, are they doing this?

kbd512 · 2022-11-15 20:53:10

Terraformer,

Okay, well, where I went to Kindergarten we weren't trying to turn boys into girls, or vice versa, or pretending that considerable numbers of 5 year olds had gender dysphoria, because their hippie-dippy parents said so.

America thrives on the government staying in its own lane, out of the way of the people, so that now matter how normal or abnormal they are, they can make their way through life without someone trying to dictate every aspect of their life from on high.

I wasn't interested in culture wars or gender wars or politics until one particular party made it a point to throw their politics and ideology into my face no matter if I was eating at a restaurant or watching a movie or playing a baseball game. At some point, I grew weary of their sanctimonious crap because it reminded me so much of organized religion, which I left because I no longer wanted any part of it.

I spent my free time exercising, shooting my guns, working on my truck, and writing code- the important stuff in life. After my children were born, they became the most important part of my life. Along the way, about half the country decided that anyone "not them" was the enemy and that they would spare no effort to put the screws to them. Some of us thought all the drugs they did in college must have caused the better parts of their brains to dribble out.

More to the point, these slaves to their ideology quit making survivable decisions, they eventually had a psychotic break under President Trump, and now the insanity continues unabated under President Biden, who doesn't know what planet he's on, where he is, how to "exit stage left", or how not to "fall up" a flight of stairs. The man can string English words together, but any time he's the least bit perturbed we receive literal gibberish. His VP could teach a master class in making word salads. She's great when reading from a prepared set of remarks, but otherwise sounds a lot like POTUS. They've since voted for another mentally disabled man for Senate who should be recovering at home but will instead be subjected to another stressful environment that's likely to kill him. If they vote for a third brain injured person, I will then be able to demonstrate a pattern of irresponsible decision making, whereby said party believes brain injury patients make good political representatives.

They don't campaign. They don't debate anyone. They promise things they could never hope to deliver. Their voters don't bother to determine if the person they're voting for has literally been dead for a month or more. They seem to be awfully racist and anti-immigrant when tiny groups of our new illegal immigrants, which they claim to love, are brought to their "sanctuary cities", which I believe are more aptly described as "cities filled with sanctimonious pricks". or "Beacons of BS for Brain Dead Blowhards".

When they do get power, then they spent their time fighting with each other, they don't pass budgets, they spend more money we don't have, they raise taxes on the one group of people they claim won't pay another dime in taxes, they ignore all the very real problems we have. Basically, the policies they advocate for and implement show a Junior High level of understanding of pretty much every topic.

Void · 2022-11-15 21:00:46

My feeling is I want you to do as well as the method you have chosen for yourself, can do for you.

As you must know, I do believe that there are people who do not fit into major categories, and they may find a different path.

However, the topic is about Slavery. Since you have not been forced to do what you do, I guess in your reality you are not enslaved.

But I am very against the notion that immature children can actually know what it is to be an adult Female or Male. It is not right for medical procedures suggested to children who otherwise would not otherwise be confused.

I have even read that most "Trans" people don't think that such things should be done until someone is grown up and knows for sure that the want it. And then only with real professional help. Not silly schoolteachers. Certainly, they should not be groomed for it.

I have said what I have read in the past about the development of children, and although I am aware it is not universal, it is generally the pattern that can work, presuming an objective is pattern replication, the birthing and protection of children to adulthood. That is generally considered a core need to keep a society going.

On the other hand, if our choice were national extinction, then let's just party, until the meat wagons take us away to eternity.

But it is only conversation. I am not a ruler, and certainly not your master at all.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2022-11-15 21:08:45)

Terraformer · 2022-11-16 08:28:50

Shrug. As I said I don't like to talk about this topic much, it's like explaining the difference between red and green to someone who is colourblind. Or what it is to imagine an apple to an aphantasiac. Quite difficult to get a shared understanding there. I just wish people would not reject something they don't personally experience out of hand; I'm pretty sure most people experience sexual attraction, whatever that is I don't think they're faking it even if I don't experience it myself.

And sure, people need to have children. Though society can get along just fine with a substantial fraction of people who don't -- the historical marriage rate in Britain was something like 80%; a fifth of the population at least wouldn't have left direct descendants. When women are able to have the 3-4 kids most want, you don't get population decline with that marriage rate. Those of us who are atypical following our own paths doesn't damage a healthy society, but encouraging such of us to follow the normative route does cause a lot of troubles, as kbd's friend shows.

This insistence on there being One True Path or One True Answer causes many problems. I don't know how you present people with multiple possibilities without in some way guiding them towards one though. Or if you're guiding them, to make sure it's the path that suits them best.

Shrug.

EDIT: This point is not (just) about gender dysphoria. It crops up all over. Infamously in Texas with Griddy. Something that is good for most (paying a middleman provider for steady prices) is not best for some (who have the discipline to handle wholesale electricity prices). And some people can't even handle what most can (Aristotle's "men fit only to be slaves", to bring it back to the ostensible topic of this thread). A society optimising outcomes for the majority struggles with those on the tails, both sides. One optimised for the right hand of the bell curve is bad for nearly everyone except the right tail, who thrive. Optimise for the left tail and everyone gets dragged down, including those in the left tail. Eh. Society building is hard.

Last edited by Terraformer (2022-11-16 08:40:37)

kbd512 · 2022-11-16 10:31:57

Terraformer,

I agree that one-size-fits-all solutions are typically bad for almost everyone. However, our ideologues keep trying to drag American society down using such solutions.

Climate change and green energy <- Optimizing society for rich people who can pay any price for energy. Are only wealthy people deserving of affordable energy, or energy abundance?

Attacking freedom of speech with censorship over matters of opinion <- Ultimately, this is bad for everyone. Don't question any of the vaccine misinformation, such as the vaccines prevent transmission of COVID. Remember that one? It wasn't that long ago.

Exposing small children, who are not even teenagers yet, to adult sexual content <- Is there an acceptable reason for doing this?

Refusing to hold teachers and students accountable for acceptable scholastic performance <- Does this even need an explanation?

Handing out more "free" public money to the wealthy <- Does nothing tangible for the society.

These kinds of things ultimately lead to slavery. We already see slavish devotion to political ideology. Actual slavery is not far behind.

Void · 2022-11-16 10:36:56

Yes, well "Life, Liberty, and the Persuit of Happiness" For some people to generate wealth is included in Persuit of Happiness, but also the other two. You can't create much wealth if you are dead or enslaved. Not for yourself, the citizen.

I have been reviewing the first few posts for this topic and think I want to act on that materials and expand on it a bit perhaps. I have plenty of my own notions about reality and will inflict a bit on the reader. These are sometimes on-going in their development.

One is that there is a dual asymmetric symmetry. I have considered that a group of males as historically defined, may behave as a female in nature. And the compliment of that is that a group of females will behave as a male. In that model, then it may be true to say that a group of males create material structures which serve as the womb for social structures. This is no different than some sort of bird collection that may create a nest. For many mammals, it seems like the males exist as a test subject, and do not otherwise materially benefit the offspring. But for some mammals, the male contributes wealth to the offspring and the processes that the offspring emerge from.

Therre are many schemes for birds, but often the raising of offspring requires a male and female parent pair.

So, human males often behaving like nesting birds will help to build a nest and nurture situation. So, it could be said that many males are bird like in their behaviors in this regard.

There is the manipulation of objects and the manipulation of people.

I am concerned about the "Human Resources" people exploiting the situation, and also basically bleeding the object manipulator of energy/wealth. The use of a collection of words, and a few ignorant thuggish enforcers may allow the extraction of wealth from the productive activities into things that are very unproductive. In effect the "Humans as a Resource" people commit rape with words.

I recall a British immigrant to the USA, indicating that in the Revolutionary War, the southern colonies in part joined hoping that they could shirk their debts to British lenders, and so that is, in part why the joined the rebellion. As it turned out, once the USA became independent, they had to honor their debts, since the USA needed credit from such lenders.

It seems that in plantation cultures the "Humans as a Resource" people continually overspend, as they have to put on the ritz to each other. This might result in males that are very specialized in ruling but perhaps not in the manipulation of objects. They may attract Hypergamous Women to the power and wealth. Everyone else is undesirable. , and rendered unproductive. In such a culture, males who can achieve productive wealth generation are rather unwelcome, and it would make sense to put them down, and do what could be done to minimize their power. So, then the Civil War.

And here we are. There is really no particular action needed. Only to seek understanding. The enemy is grossly overdrawn on their accounts, and will simply be pushed to a behavior modification(s), by natural forces. They wish us to be so foolish as to give their thuggish excuses to act against us. In the end a pattern has to be viable. They do not have a pattern that can be viable through time.

Done

Last edited by Void (2022-11-16 11:09:14)

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