New Mars Forums

Official discussion forum of The Mars Society and MarsNews.com

You are not logged in.

Announcement

Announcement: As a reader of NewMars forum, we have opportunities for you to assist with technical discussions in several initiatives underway. NewMars needs volunteers with appropriate education, skills, talent, motivation and generosity of spirit as a highly valued member. Write to newmarsmember * gmail.com to tell us about your ability's to help contribute to NewMars and become a registered member.

#1051 2022-10-01 18:21:47

kbd512
Administrator
Registered: 2015-01-02
Posts: 6,205

Re: 2019 NCOV a.k.a. Wuhan's Diseases

RobertDyck,

When will you take that silly shot so you can travel freely?

People in Asia will literally kill you to get vaccines for their children.  By that I mean premeditated murder, not simple spur-of-the-moment anger that they can't get what they want.  You get your vaccine served up on a silver platter, but won't take it.  I still find that puzzling.  Everyone in our government has been vaccinated.  Heck, most Americans have been vaccinated, period.  If it didn't work, they wouldn't bother with it.  They'd move on to the next thing.  It's for Alpha and Delta, not Omicron, but Alpha and Delta kill, whereas Omicron does not.  President Trump took his, as did everyone in his family.  He simply didn't make a big deal out of it because he's not into performative art the way our radical left is.

There are bigger fish to fry, my friend.  Pick your battles.  This one isn't worth fighting.  It won't do anything to or for you at this point, positive or negative, and your government already spent your tax money to acquire it, so you may as well take it.  I get very very little from my government except for bills, so this was the first thing I received from them since my military service.  It's a check to put in a box.  Put the check in the box so you can move on with the rest of your life.  I can't even tell you all the things I was vaccinated against in the military, but I think my fellow sailors and I did a good impersonation of a pin cushion.  COVID is still going strong in China, BTW, so eventually it will circle back over here.  There's no stopping it.  We know that now.  Some protection, however slight, is still better than none.  The Chinese are too stubborn and too proud to admit that they don't have a solution and to take what little Western medicine can offer to them.  We've offered it to them at cost, and then free of charge, but they still won't admit that you need other people to help you out every so often.  It's a character flaw.  Apart from that, there are no silver bullets in medicine, unfortunately.

Well above 99% of us who took the shot are still walking and talking, and there's hundreds of millions of us now, if not low billions, so the probability that anything bad happens to you is much lower than your drive to and from the airport.  Get on the 405 after you take it.  Tell me if you think any shot is greatly concerning after your "driving experience" there.  Take the trains in Chicago while your at it.  Everything is a crap shoot in life, but I'll take my chances with a vaccine versus no vaccine.

Offline

#1052 2022-10-01 19:06:30

SpaceNut
Administrator
From: New Hampshire
Registered: 2004-07-22
Posts: 26,734

Re: 2019 NCOV a.k.a. Wuhan's Diseases

It appears the barrier is for those that did not get a vaccine.
https://ca.usembassy.gov/covid-19-information-canada-3/

Online

#1053 2022-10-01 22:38:35

RobertDyck
Moderator
From: Winnipeg, Canada
Registered: 2002-08-20
Posts: 7,340
Website

Re: 2019 NCOV a.k.a. Wuhan's Diseases

kbd512 wrote:

RobertDyck,

When will you take that silly shot so you can travel freely?

According to a report published in the journal Science, first week of November 2021, the Veterans Association did a study. The study was conducted over September 2021. They found the Pfizer vaccine was only 35% effective at preventing infection against the Delta variant. Getting a booster shot will not help, because the variant has altered it's spike proteins so that antibodies that the vaccine stimulated will not stick. That was before Omicron came out, it's even less effective against Omicron. BA-1 is a variant of Omicron, the vaccines are less effective than against Omicron. And BA-5 is a variant of that, the vaccines are even less effective still. The vaccines are little more than a placibo. They don't provide protection, but are vary dangerous.

In February 2021, 30 people died in Norway from the Pfizer vaccine. Not from the disease, from the vaccine. The vaccine produced anaphylactic shock. Of those who don't die, both mRNA vaccines (Pfizer and Moderna) produce myocarditis and pericarditis. Myocarditis is inflammation of the heart muscle, pericarditis is the sack surrounding the heart fills with fluid. Both cause permanent irreversible heart damage. And in rare cases the mRNA vaccines cause multi-organ inflammation. That means the immune system sees spike proteins of the virus coming out of cells of every organ of your body, caused by the mRNA vaccine, so your immune system assumes those cells are infected. So your immune system attacks those cells. This is an autoimmune disorder caused by the vaccine. This requires many months of hospitalization, and you're never the same. The mRNA vaccines aren't safe.

AstraZenica causes blood clots. That has many side effects. It isn't safe either.

These are not real vaccines, they're experimental. They aren't effective, and not safe. I realize most of Congress are now investors with companies manufacturing the vaccines, so they have a conflict of interest. The Canadian Prime Minister is an investor with BioNTech, the Pfizer vaccine. He has a conflict of interest too. So why would you trust them?

You mentioned military vaccinations. Canadian soldiers were sent to Afghanistan on US military transports. This wasn't necessary, Canada has its own transport aircraft, but Stephen Harper wanted a justification to purchase C-17 aircraft. All Canadian soldiers who flew on American aircraft were required to take the anthrax vaccine. That vaccine was not certified for human use, but the military required them to take it anyway. There are class action law suits against the Canadian government due to harm done to Canadian solders from that vaccine. So why would you trust yet another experimental vaccine?

Offline

#1054 2022-10-02 00:13:20

kbd512
Administrator
Registered: 2015-01-02
Posts: 6,205

Re: 2019 NCOV a.k.a. Wuhan's Diseases

RobertDyck,

I received that Anthrax vaccine as well.  Everything in medicine is an experiment.  That's why they say medical doctors are "practicing medicine".  Nobody has it all figured out, least of all the people telling you that they do.  In some tiny percentage of the population, injecting them with saline / IV solution will kill them.  Most of the patients die from dehydration without the saline drip, which is why the hospital administers it, knowing full well that one-in-a-million people they inject will die as a result, because the other 999,999 will die without the IV.

You can take your chances with the vaccines or you can take your chances with the other drugs and other treatments administered at the various hospitals, but most of the time if you go there, you're going there to die.  Either way, you're handing over money to the same flawed humans who are fully capable of making mistakes and being greedy.  I hope you accept that much.  If you were expecting perfection, you'll be sorely disappointed by nearly all aspects of medicine.  The kind of perfection you want, functionally doesn't exist.  Everyone reacts differently and we don't yet have personalized / bespoke vaccines.

I hear what you're saying.  I understand what you're afraid of.  I'm fully aware that some people have died or been seriously adversely affected by the vaccines.  Many more lived, despite the imperfection of the vaccines.

Offline

#1055 2022-10-02 04:41:57

Calliban
Member
From: Northern England, UK
Registered: 2019-08-18
Posts: 2,210

Re: 2019 NCOV a.k.a. Wuhan's Diseases

The vaccine is in some ways analogous to a seat belt.  It will reduce your liklihood of sustaining fatal injuries in a crash, but may impede your escape from a burning car.  You wear it because it reduces your aggregate risk of death, even if it does increase some risks.  I think this is a sensible way of looking at vaccines and risk more generally.  We want to minimise our total risk of dying in the next year.  Even if one component of that risk increases, we still come out ahead if total risk declines.

Incidentally, this is why it still makes sense using fossil fuels.  If we do burn fossil fuels today, we increase the risk of deaths due to air pollution and potentially, due to future global warming.  But the benefits they give us in terms of food production, transportation, warmth and reliable electricity, make them a bargain from a risk point of view.  Without them, most humans will die this year, rather than having an increased risk of dying in the future, compaired to some (non existant) alternative.


"Plan and prepare for every possibility, and you will never act. It is nobler to have courage as we stumble into half the things we fear than to analyse every possible obstacle and begin nothing. Great things are achieved by embracing great dangers."

Offline

#1056 2022-10-02 06:52:52

RobertDyck
Moderator
From: Winnipeg, Canada
Registered: 2002-08-20
Posts: 7,340
Website

Re: 2019 NCOV a.k.a. Wuhan's Diseases

kbd512,

Your attitude is irresponsible. There is a process of approval for all medications, including vaccines. None of the COVID-19 vaccines are approved. Considering you justified the anthrax vaccine when there's a class action law suit over that, your attitude cannot be forgiven.

YouTube: Covid-19: Researcher blows the whistle on data integrity issues in Pfizer’s vaccine trial

I am not arguing against vaccines. I am arguing against forcing every member of the public to take an experimental vaccine. Especially considering studies show it doesn't work; not against the latest variants. And the vaccines are creating the variants.

Offline

#1057 2022-10-02 08:08:15

Calliban
Member
From: Northern England, UK
Registered: 2019-08-18
Posts: 2,210

Re: 2019 NCOV a.k.a. Wuhan's Diseases

My wife recieved the first dose of Pfiezer.  It caused inner ear damage that made her severely ill and prevented her from walking properly for several months.  The doctor would not even entertain the idea that the vaccine might be the cause, even though her symptoms started the day after recieving it.  I think the pharmaceutical industry has too many fingers in central government these days.  There are clear conflicts of interest.


"Plan and prepare for every possibility, and you will never act. It is nobler to have courage as we stumble into half the things we fear than to analyse every possible obstacle and begin nothing. Great things are achieved by embracing great dangers."

Offline

#1058 2022-10-02 11:40:31

SpaceNut
Administrator
From: New Hampshire
Registered: 2004-07-22
Posts: 26,734

Re: 2019 NCOV a.k.a. Wuhan's Diseases

They did get an approval it's just the virus mutated faster than the usefulness of the vaccine was capable of doing.

In so much for most people other than the increased ability to no die from the virus did give a limited protection after receiving it but not after a period of time.

Initial vaccines were given emergency use authorization but if you had a positive result, it was too late to receive it.

As kdb512 indicated medical care is mostly when it comes to requiring a medication is experimental no matter what you are taking it for.

Online

#1059 2022-10-03 08:03:42

kbd512
Administrator
Registered: 2015-01-02
Posts: 6,205

Re: 2019 NCOV a.k.a. Wuhan's Diseases

RobertDyck,

You're conflating issues for sake of being argumentative.  I was one of the guinea pigs for the Anthrax vaccine.  As a member of the US Navy, my options were jail / prison time and dishonorable discharge or taking the Anthrax vaccine.  Our command was very clear about that point.  The handful who refused went to the brig and received dishonorable discharges for disobeying direct orders.  As much fun as jail time was sure to be, I took the vaccine instead.

Whether you find my attitude "responsible", or not, is irrelevant.  What is relevant is that you want to come to America.  One of the requirements for doing that is taking the vaccine, which you can do free of charge at any time you choose.  So, if traveling to America is what you want to do most in life, then take the vaccine.  Otherwise, don't take the vaccine.  Either way, I support your decision.  Every decision has consequences, and your refusal to take the vaccine is no different.

Everyone has some personal horror story about modern medicine.  There's nothing perfect about it.  If you were expecting perfection, then you'll not find it here.  The one and only reason my wife is still alive is modern Western medicine.  Otherwise, she would've been dead years ago, along with my son.  Come to think of it, you'd also be dead without modern Western medicine.  I would've most likely died during my childhood.  One of my younger brothers almost certainly would've died.  My wife very nearly did die from a fever in Viet Nam when she was a young child, deprived of Western medicine.

It's as if you think every aspect of our medicine is an a-la-carte selection.  It's a program we run.  It's not a cafeteria menu.  The program demands testing and test subjects, because that's how we find out what works and what doesn't.

Offline

#1060 2022-10-03 09:55:28

Calliban
Member
From: Northern England, UK
Registered: 2019-08-18
Posts: 2,210

Re: 2019 NCOV a.k.a. Wuhan's Diseases

Kbd512,

You are correct that medical procedures are justifiable based upon a balance of risk.  Twelve years ago, I became severely ill from an infection in a cut on my leg.  The doctors injected me with a cocktail of intravenous antibiotics, some of which were known to be carcinogenic.  The alternative would have been prompt death, amputation above the knee or both.  I would have been crazy to object to the use of those antibiotics, because it was obvious that the infection posed a greater risk than the cure.  The cure resulted in an increased probability of cancer later in life, so maybe my life expectancy is 6 months reduced compared to average.  Without it, I would have either died at age 31 or lost my leg, which would have degraded my health and reduced my life expectancy anyway.  So taking the medicine had a positive balance of risk, even if it was dangerous in some ways.  I didn't even need to understand exactly what the risks were to know that the balance was positive in that case.  It is precisely this balance of risk that makes even the most risky medical procedures justifiable in some cases.  It applies to all sorts of other decisions that we take in life.  Every single day, we make decisions that balance benefits against risks.

The problem with the COVID vaccines is that balance of risk is in doubt.  There simply wasn't enough evidence to understand what the long term risks from the vaccine would be for most people taking it.  We know that it has made some people ill and we know that the authorities have been less than transparent about this.  There is evidence that the results of trials are not transparent and that less than honest means have been used to approve this vaccine for public use.
And the problem is that for people that aren't close to death's door anyway, the risk of death from coronavirus is small.  My parents, brother, wife and I, all caught it at the same time.  My parents are in their 70s and their symptoms were about what what you would expect from a heavy cold.

To summarise: People are being coerced and forced to take a medicine, whose side effects are not understood, to protect against a risk which is known to be small for anyone that is not already close to death.  Given that the balance of risks is uncertain and could easily be negative, is it really ethical to blackmail people into taking the medicine?

Regarding the US border restriction: If this is justifiable to protect people and it can be proven to be justifiable, then no one should have a problem with it.  But I doubt very much that this was justified using any kind of intelligent risk balance as I have described it.  And the risk has clearly passed.  More likely, some authoritarian bureaucrat (probably Democrat) just decided to slap that requirement on everyone because they could.  People that don't care about human freedom find it easy to just impose that sort coercion on other people.  They don't need to prove that it is justified.  They do it because they can.  They do it out of spite for people that don't see things their way.  And they enjoy doing it.

I don't have any problem with restrictions when they are justified and shown to be necessary to keep people safe or achieve some other public good.  No one in their right mind is opposed to airport scanners or border guards, even if those things are inconvenient.  What pisses people off is pointless rules being forced on them for the hell of it by some small minded government official that just enjoys urinating over little people from a great height.  Everybody hates that sort of autocratic personality.  And a health crisis gives them free reign to do any obnoxious thing that might even hint at helping with the problem in some vague way.

Last edited by Calliban (2022-10-03 10:09:32)


"Plan and prepare for every possibility, and you will never act. It is nobler to have courage as we stumble into half the things we fear than to analyse every possible obstacle and begin nothing. Great things are achieved by embracing great dangers."

Offline

#1061 2022-10-03 14:18:38

kbd512
Administrator
Registered: 2015-01-02
Posts: 6,205

Re: 2019 NCOV a.k.a. Wuhan's Diseases

Calliban,

I'm not the one pushing for vaccination of everyone.  That's the radical left / regressive party now in power.  I'm simply stating facts, even if some of those facts are very disagreeable to certain people.  Taking a vaccine when you're already on death's doorstep is a waste of time and money.  You either take it ahead of time or it confers no protection at all.

Q: Do I personally "feel" more or less protected after taking the vaccine?
A: No.  The vaccine was only ever a temporary protection against a very specific strain of the virus, which happened to kill an awful lot of people around the world.  The virus mutated over a year or so, and will continue to mutate, much like Influenza.  Our government, specifically Dr. Fauci and the NIH, paid some half-wits in China to monkey with a lethal virus, so now we get to live with the results.

Q: If I didn't "feel" as though the vaccine would protect me from anything, long-term, then why did I take it?
A: Two reasons.  First, in the short term it did provide excellent protection against the most lethal strains, which thankfully were short-lived before more survivable mutations occurred.  Second, it was a government requirement.  I was a member of our government.  I run our program, even when I don't agree with every aspect of it.  As a civilian, I don't expect you to understand.  Three of my close family members, my Uncle, his daughter, and her daughter's husband, all died of the virus.  Those were people I grew up with.  Three generations of our family, gone, the last two generations being younger than I am.  Pat's daughter and her daughter (the little girl who "brought home the virus", without knowing, obviously) both survived, but will never be the same.  No more father, grandmother, or great grandfather, and the mother is disabled now.  The great grandmother is the only one who wasn't hospitalized very long.  Larry dying was one thing.  He was very old and had numerous health problems.  His daughter also had some health problems, from what I understand- she was a retired nurse.  Pat's daughter and her husband had no known health problems, but she nearly died and her husband is dead.  The little girl was/is fine, physically speaking, but she will never be the same.  We couldn't picture ourselves explaining to our son and daughter that their mother or father was going to die because they were terrified of a pin prick, so we did the only thing we could do and took the shot.  Maybe others feel differently.  They don't need to justify themselves to me or anyone else, though.  You do you.

Q: Why was it ever a requirement?
A: Leftist group-think, full-stop.  That's the power of fundamentally ignorant people in large numbers, who think they're morally or intellectually superior to anyone who thinks for themselves.  They abhor independent thought and critical thinking.  It's old-fashioned narcissism and elitism at the end of the day.  The people on the left who previously asserted that "big Pharma" was a problem were the very same ones engaging in "hero worship" over the people who were essentially conducting a giant medical experiment on them with a lot of unknowns.  Why?  Leftists think it's "cool" of "fashionable" to inject themselves with drugs.  It was no different than any of the other dozens of drugs they've taken to get stoned and their cult leaders told them they were "special" by being guinea pigs.

Q: Do I agree with coercing people to put anything into their bodies?
A: No, obviously not.  I believe in personal freedom, giving people unbiased information, and then allowing them to make their own choices, even when I completely disagree with what they chose to do.  To that end, vaccines only protect the person taking them, no matter any assertions to the contrary, so there was only one reason to take the vaccine- you were worried about the virus and wanted some level of protection and were willing to participate in the experiment, which is the sole reason I took the vaccine.

I told my own children before they decided to take the vaccine that I wanted to be certain that they took it for their own personal reasons, and not because mommy or daddy "said so"- the mark of someone who thinks basically competent people who have good information can make their own reasoned choices after they enter the age of reason.  They made it clear that their decisions were about looking out for #1, so I accepted their decisions.  If they decided not to take it, I would've accepted that decision as well.  Children who hate needles and hate shots decided it was in their own best interest to take the shot, so they did.  No coercion or bullying was required, even after explaining the potentially bad and possibly fatal side-effects of the vaccines, and that it was a medical experiment.  They asked some pointed questions, I provided honest answers, and they did their own homework by reading about the vaccines.  That's how all potentially life-altering decisions should be made, but not how most people make them.

Anyway...

Enough of my fellow Americans asserted that their feelings should override all logic, so now we're being led by a bunch of morons who proudly display their moronism in front of the television cameras every single day.  That says more about the people who voted for them than it does about me.

Leftists want someone to take care of them.  They believe that since they're incapable of making good decisions on their own, then that must mean nobody is, except for the magical all-knowing and all-powerful government, which they view as a "magic totem" that confers abiilties unto their ilk that they clearly lack.  That's the power of fundamental ignorance backed by a political power structure.  They think the government is "mommy and daddy".  I've heard multiple leftists I personally know use that literal phrase to describe how they view the government.  Well, not even mommy and daddy "know everything".  There are things my own father has told me he's learned from me that he never had any clue about, and compared to me he has a lot more paper behind his name than I do.

I don't think 400 some odd people I consider to be crooks or garden variety nutjobs as people to take medical advice from, nor advice on much of anything else, but again, I greatly value independent thought and critical analysis.  Leftists don't.  The funny thing is that leftists will question / mock / deride / physically attack anyone in political power who isn't from "their tribe", but none of their own so-called "leaders" receive similar scrutiny before they screw up the lives of the people they're supposed to represent.

The handful of truly intelligent leftists like RobertDyck, people who think for themselves despite incorrectly assuming that their fellow leftists are doing the same, are later disillusioned with the world that their choices created.  In his words, "My party became an authoritarian dictatorship."  Well, that's what happens when you vote for more and more government.  You give them an inch, they take a mile.  If the Republicans stopped supporting personal choice and individual liberty tomorrow, then I would stop voting for them.  I don't have any ideologically-motivated affection for the party, or any party, I don't marvel at the intellect that nearly all politicians appear to utterly lack, which includes President Trump for those who can't figure that out, it's purely about self-preservation and selecting the least destructive option available.  Hillary Clinton said she wanted a war with Russia.  That would've gone nuclear in about a day, maybe a week.  Now we're likely to get our WWIII under President Biden regardless of what anyone wants.

All that said, I can't stand people who deliberately destroy what so many better men and women gave their lives to build, and that is what our Democrat Party's radical leftism has come to represent.  They think they're voting for "hope and change", but that's not what I see happening.  I see a collection of proven systemic failures associated with a fallacious belief in the wisdom and good nature of "mommy and daddy government", which at some point has to be viewed as deliberately self-destructive behavior.  I don't care about what they actually intended.

When I had to watch President Bush screwing up our country in his own special way, I wasn't looking on, cackling, while saying "Oh well, at least he's not Al Gore."  Al Gore was/is a nutjob and Bush was our village idiot, so hard to say which choice was "the better one".  I'd have to be nuts to believe that what happened after 9/11 was "a good thing", but that's exactly what our Democrats have been saying to themselves about Biden versus Trump.  Yeah, bubba, try to ignore that insane drug addict charging at you with a knife because your party can pull its head out of its rear end when it comes to law enforcement and mental health care.  Try to ignore your savings dwindling down to nothing with rising energy prices.  Good luck with that.  I'm never going to be a part of the cheerleading squad for the destruction of America, regardless of which political party is leading that charge.

Offline

Board footer

Powered by FluxBB