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#326 2022-06-23 07:36:53

Void
Member
Registered: 2011-12-29
Posts: 4,665

Re: Worlds, and World Engine type terraform stuff.

Quote:

tahanson43206
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For Calliban re #322

This may be a departure from Void's topic, so it may be better to continue in another topic.... however, my question is:

Why is disassociation of the water molecule a problem?  Both hydrogen and oxygen are rendered as lower molecular weight entities, so they ? should ? provide higher ISP (a) and (b) once ionized, they should be subject to electric (probably magnetic) acceleration to achieve even greater ISP.

If another topic is preferred by Void, I'd like to offer the Physics topic.

(th)

Online

You have some part of an argument (th), but I don't believe that there is any new physics for this to speak of.

A problem cited by "George Friedman", is that after WWII, the economy went to specialists who were efficient at what they would do, the generations older than them were still able to see the big picture of thins.  Now the generalists are long gone and we have nobody at the helm that can tell the specialists what task to work on.

We can have Terraforming, which we can do a little of, and Para terraforming which we might do a lot of.

Perhaps you might have noticed that I have some inclinations for orbital artificial worlds.  In my mind this is really not a strong departure from having "Domes" and tunnels on Mars.

The merits of lifting water to orbits, is that it can have various helpful uses.  Propulsions are among them. 

But I did previously mention a biological method to get propellants.  A greenhouse in orbit would give Oxygen, and Organic matter also resulting can be treated to get Methane and Hydrogen.

Frankly I think some people have old methods embedded in their minds and then anytime something new is suggested those people will circle back to old notions and try very hard to nullify the existence of new thinking.

One such feature for Mars is the notion that the Hohmann transfer is the only way  to get things to Mars.  That perhaps is a good way to get some people to Mars, but not the only way to build up a para terraformed orbital collection, with also structures on the planet Propper.

Orbital assets will be very important, and those will have needs for propulsions.

Done

Last edited by Void (2022-06-23 07:45:29)


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#327 2022-06-23 09:39:27

Void
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Registered: 2011-12-29
Posts: 4,665

Re: Worlds, and World Engine type terraform stuff.

Back to this again about Phobos and Deimos: https://solarsystem.nasa.gov/moons/mars … =post_page---------------------------

Quote:

The moons appear to be made of carbon-rich rock mixed with ice and may be captured asteroids.

So, because I want to imagine sending materials to Martian Orbit for "Para Terraforming" purposes, I will suggest a Ballistic Starship, or alternately a spiral Starship.

Ballistic Capture is sort of described here: https://www.space.com/30749-the-martian … capture%29.

Spiral path might be such propulsions as an Ion rocket, Photon Sail, or Magnetic Plasma bubble method, which in many cases would spiral away from Earth/Moon to Mars.

Basically this would be a probable one use Starship.  It would not need a heat shield, or flaps.  What might ultimately would become of the Raptor engines would be answered later.

So then I see this and some other hardware going on a slow boat to Mars orbit.  Probably robotic not with humans.

And then assemble a bunch of stuff into a synthetic gravity machine.   Get radiation protection from materials of Phobos and Deimos, and some bulk of water from somewhere.

So, then there is a question: "Would it be more practical to generate the bulk of propellants for Starships, in Mars orbit than on the Mars surface.

So, I would suppose that at first you would bring Ice and Dry ice up from Mars to process.  Later though it can be hoped that water and Carbon can be sourced from the moons of Mars.

I think that it is obvious that the orbit location will not be subject to dust storms.  Also using very thin reflectors, for a small mass you could  amp up the output of solar driven power systems.

And then if you think of boosting ships away from Mars to somewhere else, perhaps a Laser & Water system might work out OK.  If you can do that then even more you do not have to manufacture combustible propellants in such large quantities.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2022-06-23 09:57:48)


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#328 2022-06-25 09:54:51

Void
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Registered: 2011-12-29
Posts: 4,665

Re: Worlds, and World Engine type terraform stuff.

I intend to incorporate some of this material next: "Index» Life support systems» Crops, Unconventional"
Posts #44 thru #48.

http://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.php?id=7568&p=2

If this all proves true, then it offers a compromise where crops might be grown under low light conditions, and humans may enjoy them in a spiritual manner as well.

An example would be that you might have a vegetable garden, in close proximity to something like a running track.

The main sustenance of the crops would be chemical, but you might still do some low-level lighting, which for the adjustable human eye can be sunlight at dusk or dawn, or normal room lighting (Sort of).

So, then I consider this for "Para Terraforming", in constructed pressurized shelters, both on the surface of proper natural worlds, or sub-surfaces, or in the orbits in our solar system.

But I am short on time just now.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2022-06-25 10:00:16)


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#329 2022-06-27 08:51:10

Void
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Registered: 2011-12-29
Posts: 4,665

Re: Worlds, and World Engine type terraform stuff.

Referring to the previous post also,

Query: "Growing plants with ascetate"  (Curiously when I corrected the spelling, I did not get the articles:

Response: https://www.bing.com/search?q=%22%22Gro … =0&ghacc=0

https://newatlas.com/science/artificial … ess%20land.

https://www.udel.edu/udaily/2022/june/g … catalysis/

Mars_B4_Moon had originally given this one elsewhere:  https://interestingengineering.com/brea … t-sunlight

My question now is can the process grow plants that produce sugars?  If so then Alcohol could be fermented.

Another question is can you grow plant fibers?  Bamboo, Hemp, Other?

If so, of course these would be things of value.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2022-06-27 13:10:34)


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#330 2022-06-27 10:10:58

Void
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Registered: 2011-12-29
Posts: 4,665

Re: Worlds, and World Engine type terraform stuff.

Query: "Layered Sediments in Valles Marineras"

General Response: https://www.bing.com/search?q=%22Layere … 75774a1fdb

Images: https://www.bing.com/images/search?q=%2 … HoverTitle

Query: "carving wine caves in sandstone"

General Response: https://www.bing.com/search?q=carving+w … 150e849607

Images: https://www.bing.com/images/search?q=ca … HoverTitle

"How to Carve Sandstone"
https://www.ehow.com/list_6567192_rock- … tools.html

So, the Valles Marineras seeming to have a patch of water/Ice the size of the Netherlands, also seems to have lots of sedimentary rock.  Some of it may be high quality sandstone, it could be hoped.

The spoils could be made into bricks and such, Either Urea Bricks, or Calcium cement from Perchlorate.

Such a cave system with some nuclear and some solar power, could endure global dust storms pretty well.

I am also warming up to the idea of circular tunnels with spinning torus in them.

Those might start and stop several times a day allowing people to spend some time in them if it were useful to health.

I believe it would also be possible to have a cave where the wheel could have a hub which you could get in and out through.  In that case the spin habitat, could run almost continuously.

So then perhaps some items carved like this: DjrDKgv.png

The upper cave you might but supports for the ceiling in, the lower one might not need it and you might put a spinning centrifuge in.

The upper one might be a farm/garden with a little artificial lighting but mostly, (We can hope), running on Acetate and Oxygen

Done.

Last edited by Void (2022-06-27 10:47:21)


Done.

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#331 2022-06-27 13:11:24

Void
Member
Registered: 2011-12-29
Posts: 4,665

Re: Worlds, and World Engine type terraform stuff.

Mars_B4_Moon had originally given this one elsewhere:  https://interestingengineering.com/brea … t-sunlight

It occurs to me that the Algae and other microbes may be of great interest.

Quote:

During their research, the scientists discovered that a large variety of food could be produced in the dark using their method, including green algae, yeast, and fungal mycelium, which produces mushrooms. According to their findings, growing yeast using their method is 18 times more energy-efficient than the way it is typically cultivated by extracting sugar from corn.

In the case of Algae, where a pond would get sunlight in a sort of 2D plain, with acetate it would be more 3D access of energy throughout the water column.

I am going to guess that Spirulina could be grown in such a way.  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spirulina … upplement)

I wonder also about Hydrilla.

Duck Weed?

Enough, Done.

Last edited by Void (2022-06-27 13:36:36)


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#332 2022-06-27 17:52:06

Void
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Registered: 2011-12-29
Posts: 4,665

Re: Worlds, and World Engine type terraform stuff.

This is speculative and I reserve the right to be wrong in some or all of it.

I am thinking it though, why fungi and even plants would be adapted to feed on certain fuels.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marsh_gas

So for plants it may be that in many locations there is a low level of fuels that percolate up through the soil.
Mostly it is thought that that would be from rotting organic matter, but I also speculate that iron in soil could also generate Hydrogen by rusting in water.

So, I would have suspected it for fungi but did not expect it in plants.

So, I wonder if any bog plants would be useful for domestication on Mars?  If they are used to feeding on Marsh Gas, then they might do well with acetate.  I would not rule out the possibility that CO could be used, but of course that would be very poisonous for humans.

Query: "edible bog plants"

Response: https://www.bing.com/search?q=edible%20 … =0&ghacc=0

Quote:

What Bog Plants Are Edible? (Top 6 Edible Bog Plants)

https://pondinformer.com/edible-bog-plants/


Query: "medicine from bog plants"

Response: https://www.bing.com/search?q=medicine% … =0&ghacc=0

Quote:

Bog Plants and Their Use in Medicine

https://www.123helpme.com/essay/Bog-Pla … 20medicine.

Query: "Cattails as food"

Response: https://www.bing.com/search?q=Cactails+ … faf2ebd02e

Quote:

Cattails: The Survival Food That’s Great Anytime

https://www.offthegridnews.com/off-grid … t-anytime/

They talk a lot about starch in Cattails.

That's enough I guess.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2022-06-27 18:11:32)


Done.

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#333 2022-06-28 06:25:03

Void
Member
Registered: 2011-12-29
Posts: 4,665

Re: Worlds, and World Engine type terraform stuff.

We lack the ability, as far as I can see to terraform any world to strongly resemble the Earth.

So, I am thinking Para Terraforming at this point.  And I consider a orbital habitat to be just as good for that as a "Dome" on the surface of the Moon or Mars.

In order to create such worlds, you need tools.

A tool that particularly attracts me at this time would be a "Refinery Ship".

I see a loophole where it should be possible to assemble something like that in LEO, and send it on a Ballistic Capture path, to go to the orbits of Mars.  I also anticipate that since these will have very large solar arrays, then they can use that electricity in transit, for propulsion.  I think that magnetic sail methods would do rather well.  So, this "Refinery would not sail to Mars only on chemical propulsions.

It could be a collection of "Ships".  Perhaps multiple Starships joined.  And a very large set of solar arrays.

It would not need to include a heat shield, landing legs, or flaps and motors.

I want it to produce propellants in Martian orbit from raw materials from Mars, Phobos, and Deimos.

It will still be necessary to have a propellant production facility on the surface of Mars, almost certainly.  I am hoping that ground facility can be sharply reduced in scale.

I have thought about it and I feel that the orbital solar cells will produce much more fuel than the ground ones.
There are no dust storms in orbit, and the refinery can be in the sunlight, the most part of days.   Also, there would be no atmospheric attenuation of sunlight.

At first raw materials such as Water, CO2, and Argon would come from Mars, but over time, if possible, they would come from Phobos and Deimos as well.

It can be noted that propellants needed to get this refinery to Martian orbit should be less, (Sort of), than landing it to the surface of Mars.  Also, you would not need a human crew to assemble it at Mars, That for the most part would occur in LEO.

I am also interested in pairing other technologies with Starship(s).  Terran-R comes to mind.

https://spacecraft.fandom.com/wiki/Terran_R_(Rocket)

I would like to give consideration to a probability that most Starships landed on Mars would stay there.  Having brought hardware, then they would be taken apart and repurposed to the best possible advantage.

So then, usually it would be only Terran-R that would carry Humans up from the surface.

I guess I might think to modify that to some extent, if Ice and CO2 have to come from Mars, then you would probably want some robotic Starships to do that lifting.  Maybe those could do 10 trips before being parted out?

So then Terran-R would be Dr. Zubrin's "Mini-Starship", which could be used to return people to Earth.  The hope is that the bulk of people going to Mars would stay there.  So, only a few people coming back.

However, I see chances to send both a Starship and Terran-R as partners.

Once they neared Earth they would split up, most likely the humans would be in the Terran-R.

For the Terran-R, a possibility exists to aero-burn either to the surface of Earth or to LEO.

Starship also would have those options, but also could do a swing-by of Earth to return to Mars with a Ballistic Capture.

Swing-by's might also involve Venus.

And the ship could have plasma bubble magnetic sailing as an option.

I'm needing a break.

Done for now.

Last edited by Void (2022-06-28 07:07:01)


Done.

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#334 2022-06-28 10:35:32

Calliban
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From: Northern England, UK
Registered: 2019-08-18
Posts: 1,955

Re: Worlds, and World Engine type terraform stuff.

Void, I too think paraterraforming is the only option in most places and the only practical option on Mars.  The problem is that open sky terraforming is such a huge scale, long term effort, even on Mars.  The scale of engineering required suggests a population of billions may be needed to provide the financial and physical resources to get it done.  So there will have to be paraterraforming in the mean time just to support those people.  We have discussed many schemes over the years.  In all cases the engineering requirements of introducing several tonnes of gas per square metre of Martian surface are rather extreme.

My personal favourite idea is to bombard Mars with ice mined on Ceres.  Put a 1000 trillion 1m diameter ice cubes on orbits that intersects the orbit of Mars.  As they explode in the upper atmosphere of Mars, they will saturate it with water vapour.  The sun's UV flux breaks this down into hydrogen and oxygen, with the hydrogen escaping into space.  But we must mine 1 million cubic kilometres of ice to produce a breathable atmosphrre in this way.  The scale of engineering required to pull this off is just insane.

Last edited by Calliban (2022-06-28 10:43:04)


"Plan and prepare for every possibility, and you will never act. It is nobler to have courage as we stumble into half the things we fear than to analyse every possible obstacle and begin nothing. Great things are achieved by embracing great dangers."

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#335 2022-06-28 11:33:31

Void
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Registered: 2011-12-29
Posts: 4,665

Re: Worlds, and World Engine type terraform stuff.

I think we have a similar notion(s).

Mars is going to be a good place, if it will become what it seems it could be.

Currently my opinion is to try to use sandstone subsurface as the backbone of a "Far Mars" settlement(s).

Most of the exposed sandstone I am aware of is towards the equator.  However I suspect that at higher latitudes sandstone is covered with icy regolith.  It is possible that a underground system of tunnels could be built, mostly in sandstone, across wide reaches of Mars.

And of course there could be glass domes, or rather structures safer than those.

I consider the surface of Mars and it's subsurface to be "Far Mars".

"Near Mars" would be Phobos and Deimos and the structure that can be built in the orbits of Mars.

So, I would like to see both a Near and Far Mars settlement, which of course would be working together.

I think that it will be possible to have practical synthetic gravity machines in sandstone caves, but that remains to be proven.  Maybe they will not be needed, but having the option seems nice.

I also feel that it may be possible to guide NEO's into L4 & L5 for Mars, and into Mars orbits, over longer time spans using the solar wind or photons.

So, using those materials over time you could contribute to the atmosphere, and build more orbital structure.  I don't care for orbital swarms, I would rather have everything connected, and then have spinners nested into the main structure.

Your ice cubes are an interesting notion.  May I suggest something parallel?

Perhaps something a bit larger, ice in a canister, with a propulsion nozzle system.  Presuming that they would be launched by Mass Driver to intercept Mars, then if you had an orbital laser system you might melt the interiors as they got close, and then when quite close begin using the lasers in concert with these self braking canisters, to eject steam to slow the canisters down.  The hope would be to get the steam into the Martian atmosphere.

Perhaps it would be better to loop to a Perigee that is close enough to the sun to melt the ice, and then as the canister moved back outward, to intercept Mars and use the Lasers to slow it and guide it.  In that case the steam might be carried by the solar wind into the gravity well of Mars.

It needs some work.  Perhaps the Magnetic field provided for Mars will be leaky enough for that to work.  It would not matter if the solar wind got in, what would matter is that the drag of the field would prevent it from pulling atmosphere off into space.

As for the canisters, the intention would be to capture them and incorporate them into the orbital structure.  As for the Mass Drivers, conversation from Dr. Johnson suggests that they would have to be very long, or you could not accellerate a canister of ice without corrupting the structure.

So, then I see the proper Terraforming of Mars itself as being an extremely long-term project, probably never to be completed to perfection.

But If I were to name the current ~value of the Mars atmosphere, a "MarsBar" smile  Then it is my understanding that there are probably enough CO2 ice to expand it to 2 MarsBars, and this is possibly enough to begin melting snow into temporary streams.

And as we have discussed before, we don't want to promote sediments absorbing atmosphere.  So probably running water should be captured into a piping system(s). Standing water may not do as much damage.

I think that with a 2 MarsBar atmosphere, biomes of living organisms would be possible.  Psychologically that may assist the inhabitants of both Near and Far Mars.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2022-06-28 11:59:31)


Done.

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#336 2022-06-28 12:20:23

Calliban
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From: Northern England, UK
Registered: 2019-08-18
Posts: 1,955

Re: Worlds, and World Engine type terraform stuff.

Maybe mix in a little ammonia with the ice.  Such that it is solid at Ceres distance from the sun but turns to liquid at Mars distance.  The canisters could be given a slight spin.  When they get within a thousand km of Mars, we shine the lasers onto them increasing internal pressure until bursting discs fail around their circumference.  Centrifugal force will then empty the water from the cylinder.


"Plan and prepare for every possibility, and you will never act. It is nobler to have courage as we stumble into half the things we fear than to analyse every possible obstacle and begin nothing. Great things are achieved by embracing great dangers."

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#337 2022-06-28 13:36:12

Void
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Registered: 2011-12-29
Posts: 4,665

Re: Worlds, and World Engine type terraform stuff.

Yes, the Ammonia, good plan.  and to explode the canisters, I guess that is up to the art of the artist smile

I would like to run something a bit weird by you along these lines.

Could we consider Ceres to be an energy storing flywheel?  Use Tethers and Mass Drivers on the Tethers?

Keep slowing Ceres down to a Tidal locked condition?  It would be necessary to keep lengthening the tethers as it spun down.

Ceres: https://solarsystem.nasa.gov/planets/dw … /in-depth/
Quote:

In Depth | Ceres – NASA Solar System Exploration
As Ceres orbits the Sun, it completes one rotation every 9 hours, making its day length one of the shortest in the solar system. Ceres' axis of rotation is tilted just 4 degrees with respect to the plane of its orbit around the Sun. That means it spins nearly perfectly upright and doesn't experience seasons like other more tilted planets do. Moons

Once tidal locked then the sunward side would be relatively warm, and the dark side would be a cold trap for water and other things which could come from impactors and the solar wind.

Done.

Later.....

Actually, for that case I would seek to have larger containers with rocket nozzles, powered by lasers.  There might be a course correction method also included.  Then the steam thrust would be intended to inflate the Martian atmosphere and deliver the canister to orbit as a prefab unit to add on to the orbital structure(s).

Done

Last edited by Void (2022-06-28 13:57:00)


Done.

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#338 2022-06-28 16:02:54

Calliban
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From: Northern England, UK
Registered: 2019-08-18
Posts: 1,955

Re: Worlds, and World Engine type terraform stuff.

Void, that is a very interesting idea.  We could use the planetoid's own angular momentum to launch the ice.  A tidally locked Ceres would be a more habitable place.  The weak sunlight in the outer belt would be a lot more useful if it were available 24/7.

Last edited by Calliban (2022-06-28 16:04:03)


"Plan and prepare for every possibility, and you will never act. It is nobler to have courage as we stumble into half the things we fear than to analyse every possible obstacle and begin nothing. Great things are achieved by embracing great dangers."

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#339 2022-06-28 18:21:09

Void
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Registered: 2011-12-29
Posts: 4,665

Re: Worlds, and World Engine type terraform stuff.

I'm having a good day.  I seem to be getting over my second case of Covid-19.  Even the sinuses are clearing up.

Yes, I like that idea, and the way you expressed it.

But just now I thought of an improvement.

The idea to tidal lock the asteroid would be an option, but if one wanted a giant solar panel, it could do the same thing, and be in gravitational association with Ceres.

But now I am thinking of switching magnetic fields that would turn an asteroid into a thing similar to a water wheel.

So, it would spin up by adding angular motion using switching magnetic fields on the surface of Ceres or another asteroid.

So, provided the planets and especially Jupiter kept it in it's orbit, the sun's energy of solar wind can spin it up.

Spacecraft could more easily ride the solar wind out to the asteroids, and then this angular spin tether thing could fling them away from the sun or towards the sun.

I don't want to overprocess at this point as I want to stay in a generalist view, but I also think that mass drivers could be at the ends of the tethers.

But to have a giant mass driver platform spinning at the end of long tethers would likely mandate many tethers in parallel anchored to Ceres and to the platform.

Interestingly there are the trojans for many planets and the Centaurs.
http://www.sci-news.com/astronomy/centa … on%20years.

I count this as a pretty good day.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2022-06-28 18:27:06)


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#340 2022-06-28 20:16:53

Void
Member
Registered: 2011-12-29
Posts: 4,665

Re: Worlds, and World Engine type terraform stuff.

I am nervous about this being real, but this article seems like a lot of bother to commit fraud.

https://www.nature.com/articles/s43016-022-00530-x
Quote:

A hybrid inorganic–biological artificial photosynthesis system for energy-efficient food production

I will study it more, but perhaps better people can also take a look and give an opinion.

This picture quote clears up the question about Oxygen.  It appears that the process produces Oxygen: https://media.springernature.com/lw685/ … ng?as=webp

Picture Quote: https://media.springernature.com/full/s … ng?as=webp

------

So, I am very hopeful that this is real.

while if it is true, apparently you can grow bulk food without light, of course electricity is needed, and the mechanisms mentioned.  But Asteroids should provide the metals needed.  Probably Mars will as well, or at first even Earth.

But I might prefer a partially lighted version to make it more suitable for humans.

I am considering both underground and orbital habitats for the Moon, Mars, and Ceres.  (Of course, other asteroids).

Another way to grow bulk food would be low pressure chambers with windows, but the pressure may be too low for unprotected humans.

Good Enough for now.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2022-06-28 20:39:27)


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#341 2022-06-29 08:59:28

Void
Member
Registered: 2011-12-29
Posts: 4,665

Re: Worlds, and World Engine type terraform stuff.

Well, I have to keep self-isolating for a day or two more at least.  So, I guess I will goof off here.

https://nerdist.com/article/theoretical … een-years/
Quote:

HUMANS COULD SOON LIVE IN A GIANT SPACE STATION ORBITING CERES
by Michael Walsh
Feb 11 2021 • 8:26 AM

Quote:

“Ceres is selected because it has nitrogen, which is necessary for an earthlike atmosphere. To have 1g artificial gravity, spinning habitats are attached to a disk-shaped megasatellite frame by passively safe magnetic bearings. The habitats are illuminated by concentrated sunlight produced by planar and parabolic mirrors. The motivation is to have a settlement with artificial gravity that allows growth beyond Earth’s living area, while also providing easy intra-settlement travel for the inhabitants and reasonably low population density of 500/km2.”

About Space Elevators and Ceres, Quote:

“To enable gardens and trees, a 1.5 m thick soil is used. The soil is upgradable to 4 m if more energy is expended in the manufacturing phase. The mass per person is 107 kg, most of which is lightly processed radiation shield and soil. The goal is a long-term sustainable world where all atoms circulate. Because intra-settlement travel can be propellantless, achieving this goal is possible at least in principle. Lifting the materials from Ceres is energetically cheap compared to processing them into habitats, if a space elevator is used. Because Ceres has low gravity and rotates relatively fast, the space elevator is feasible.”

But I also wonder about a large magnetic field bonded to the surface of Ceres which might couple with an orbiting craft which would have it's own magnetic field.  If it outward from Ceres in it's orbit, then the spin of Ceres could project a craft outward in that fashion in an aiding spin.  Possibly if a craft arrived in a high orbit of Ceres in retrograde, The magnetic fields could bring the craft "Down".

But for now a direct mechanical method can be the main notion.



So Calliban and I were discussing flinging payloads using the rotational energy of Ceres, and possibly also Mass Drivers.
*Ceres looks especially important for Nitrogen and Water,  But of course Calliban mentioned Ammonia to mix with the water, so the Nitrogen would be in the Ammonia.

It is possible that "Bare" ice balls could be sent to impact the upper atmosphere of Mars.

Another possibility would be to make metal containers to hold a water Ammonia mix.  Such might have small thrusters of some kind for refining navigation.  At arrival it is possible that a larger thrust mechanism included would be powered by lasers sent from the destination world, in order to slow down the "Tanker" and get it proximate to a location of usage.

So, if things were flung from an Asteroid in this way, the spin of that world would be a flywheel with fossil spin left over from formation processes.  This would in part power the launch.  A space elevator + type of structure would allow the largest extraction of such energy.

So, this could be done for other asteroids, except the small rubble piles.  A substantial asteroid could be used for its fossil spin, but also could be used to accumulate spin from the passing solar wind, or perhaps even photons.

Vesta for instance or 16 Psyche.

All these worlds could fling payloads at each other, and we hope Mars as well.  As for using Laser propulsion, I guess you need a liquid to spew out.  Ceres has it.  Many asteroids will also have Hydrated minerals.

Here is a crude drawing: KyzMVfK.png

You will notice that I am trying.  Certainly, this is not perfected, or even proven as practical.  Not yet anyway.

Kind of cool to store energy as spin and then utilize the spin to generate wealth.

My hope is that Jupiter as a gravitational Shepard will tend to keep these asteroids where we would want them.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2022-06-29 09:39:07)


Done.

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#342 2022-06-29 16:42:04

Void
Member
Registered: 2011-12-29
Posts: 4,665

Re: Worlds, and World Engine type terraform stuff.

Perhaps someone will have to pop my balloon.

From the last post I have been thinking of a sort of orbital Ladder/Tower/Tether thing.

I consider it worth testing in words at least.

I am thinking it could have a triangular cross section or some other polygon.  I am currently thinking of it for the Moon.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Radio_masts_and_towers

Images:  https://www.bing.com/images/search?q=Ra … HoverTitle

This would be a sort of tether, and so to a large degree redundant to them, but there would be some differences.

And the larger the object orbited, probably the more intense the differential forces between the top and bottom ends.

This would not be anchored to a worlds surface.  I am still thinking this over, so it may not be the final version.

I have not felt comfortable with the notion of a cable constantly in danger of being damaged by impactors.

I am thinking about what to do with metals reduced to produce Liquid Oxygen to be given to Ships.  And also a ladder that those ships could dock to and then climb up and down to get to the Propellant tanks, and then to climb to the end to either drop towards the Moon or rise up above the top end of the ladder.

So, this could exchange up and down inertia, but since most mass would either come up to become part of the ladder structure or be propellant that likely goes up the ladder.  The tendency would be for the ladder to sink down in it's orbit.

But in general, I anticipate that a propulsive method such as sailing on the solar wind would make up for that.

The inertia of the ladder would be useful as a storage device for the energy of the solar wind, or the solar photon flux.

As I have said, this is not too different from tethers in general, but as I feel it could endure a collision better than a tether and could likely be repaired if the damage did not sever the device.

If the rigors around the Moon are too much for this to be of value, it may perhaps be useful around Ceres, or Vesta, or16 Psyche.

This is not strictly Unobtanium, Carbon Nanotube, or Kevlar, so the lengths likely have to be much shorter.

Still, I am thinking that somehow the ladder frame may offer armor from impactors to the tensile cables used.  And the redundant members, may allow for significant damage without severing the whole thing.  And even if severed it may be possible to rejoin the pieces.

And of course, just like regular tethers, you may have ladders of a similar nature above and below in a series.

And of course the magnetic fields would turn on and off according to propulsive needs, so it might be possible to have a ring of electromagnets on the surface of the Moon, and so then cause propulsions by reacting magnets against each other, either pushing or pulling.  And that propulsion lift could go up the chain of ladders.

I don't know how a Mass Driver(s) could interact with this but maybe something useful could be done.

I guess the idea would be to get mass and propellants into Lunar orbits, while using the least amount of fluid propellants possible.

You would want the fluid propellants for the spacecraft(s)

Part mind fertilizer and/or B.S. smile

Done.

Last edited by Void (2022-06-29 17:11:46)


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#343 2022-06-29 19:03:00

Void
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Registered: 2011-12-29
Posts: 4,665

Re: Worlds, and World Engine type terraform stuff.

I might as well do some more. smile

In certain ways this materials is not new.  Maybe just presented in a different version.

I am currently thinking of a ladder spinning, where it is both a centrifugal force collector and a mass driver.

If you pick a center of the ladder and call it the hub, then you can call one end 'A' and the other 'B'.

If you have mass driver magnets with capacitors on both 'A' and 'B', then you can operate them on steady and "Twitch" modes.

That is you could turn on all of the magnets for an interval of the rotation on 'A' or 'B' alternately.

If you wanted to do a mass driver event, then you would fire each capacitor sequentially.

I was thinking you could start at the hub and fire a sequence down 'A' or 'B'.  Now I am wondering what would happen if you started at the far end of one and crossed the hub, and then continued with a sequence down the other.

In these cases, I think the device will be propelled in the opposite direction by the reaction.  I don't know if this device could be held in place by a L4 or L5 pocket.  That would be one reason to attach plenty of mass to the "ladder".

However if you were firing mass away from the dominant gravity well at that location some options to correct with the solar wind might exist.

And it might be possible to first fire in one direction and then the opposite. 

Anyway, more mental stuff, which ever way you want to consider it.

smile

Done.

Last edited by Void (2022-06-29 19:13:51)


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#344 2022-06-30 08:48:06

Void
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Registered: 2011-12-29
Posts: 4,665

Re: Worlds, and World Engine type terraform stuff.

I would like to comment on the notion of "On Topic" vs "Off Topic".

Topics could be specialized in order to drill down deep into some item, diversions could interfere.

However, there may be topics that are about attaching several possible topics into one generalized view.

I could say that my objective for the most part is to Para Terraform the Solar System.  And that is pretty much what this particular topic is about, although it might on occasion talk about Proxima Centauri-a, b, c, d.

This morning what I am thinking about is combining power satellites with mass drivers, and synthetic worlds, and tethers.  Each of those could be a specific topic, but if they were done separately, then the generalist view would be very hard to work with.  Almost impossible.

So, for the moment I will try to bind two concepts together of what I mentioned above.

A power satellite, and a mass driver.

A reason to try to join them is that the power satellite would have mass and structure, and it may be possible to include a Mass driver into the power satellite and use that as part of the structure as well.  This assembly might move out of position though if launches were unbalanced, and move out of the appointed position in orbit.

So, a propulsion method is needed to correct that.  There can be many options, I favor magnetic or photon methods, dealing with sunlight, the Earth's magnetic field, and/or the solar wind.  That then adds mass, but that might be useful for the mass driver process.

And then you might want to start adding habitats for humans and robots for various purposes.

Just at the moment it seems reasonable to start with a platform in Geosynchronous orbit.  Mass drivers may be interesting, but you could also consider tethers to deploy mass, tethers either up or down from this platform.

The tethers can also give propulsion in some cases or generate electricity in some cases.

Also, you might add on "Beamed power" of some kind to assist arriving and departing spacecraft.

So, then the product this space power plant provided would be more then energy beamed down to Earth.

Habitats may serve also as flywheels to store energy from time to time.

At some point the value of the products may be enough to justify the expense of the creation of such stations.

It is possible that such an assembly would be useful for connecting the Earth to other worlds.

So, I understand that the moderators have to make a judgement of when to use the off-topic guidance, but it would not fit very well in this case, as it seems likely that adding features to this platform may be valuable.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2022-06-30 11:22:16)


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#345 2022-06-30 11:22:58

Void
Member
Registered: 2011-12-29
Posts: 4,665

Re: Worlds, and World Engine type terraform stuff.

In the last post, I wondered about a place in the scheme of things for multi-use platforms in orbit(s).

I think that these might be good for receiving robotic deliveries from using low acceleration propulsion devices.

Among these might be:
-Ion Drives
-Magnetic Bubble sails
-Photon sails
-Electrodynamic tethers.

Products that might come from the Moon might be:
-Water
-Oxygen
-Solar Panels
-Structural Members
-Argon?  https://lunarpedia.org/index.php?title= … 20fissures.

The use of tethered launching, for some ships might be employed.  This might displace the platform, so the use of Ion Drive or electrodynamic tether might be used to correct back.  Or even a solar sail process.

For a Lunar Starship without a heat shield, or the Centaur, there should be up and down traffic though, and I don't know what the long-term net effect would be for releasing those ships on a tether.

If more mass from the Moon were being dropped towards LEO, then the platform would tend to rise.  I am presuming that mass arrived by docking to the platform itself, not a tether..

A similar platform around Mars, might also use the solar wind to correct its location.  Solar sails might also serve at times as mirrors. 

Mass Drivers might be harder to use on such platforms.  They might also "Explode", and cause collateral damage.

I guess that is enough for now.

Not sure if platforms in Geo synch are as good as that or not.

An important this to pay attention to is the potential multi-use of such.  These may deliver energy to the Earth, but may also have a local population in spinning habitats.  So these platforms might be their own worlds, and they may share in the power usage.  Their spinning habitats may have variable gravity, so that the habitats can be used as flywheels to store energy.  For instance, at night you might let the g force go down, and then build it up during the day.  This time cycle could be offset from the peak demands of the customers on Earth.

So, people in the spinning habs, might have 'g' Force indicators to help them know how to do things in the bathroom an kitchen.



Done.

Last edited by Void (2022-06-30 11:57:05)


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#346 2022-07-01 11:19:56

Void
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Registered: 2011-12-29
Posts: 4,665

Re: Worlds, and World Engine type terraform stuff.

A visualization of what might be done is that you could have a continuous bucket conveyor belt and move materials of the Moon down, and materials from the Earth up.  If it we in balance then other than friction you would not have much for energy losses.

Of course, that is not really possible.  But it would be interesting to see what could be accomplished for segments of similar to that in orbit.

It seems to me that if you could sail on the solar wind in very high Earth orbit and Lunar orbit, that would contribute to the supply chain method.

Then getting into the Earth's magnetic field more often and more in general you might want Argon as a propellant, maybe that comes from the Moon, and you might want to deal with tethers as a partial answer to the conveyer belt notion.

Perhaps light sails assisted by lasers can work in many places, and then you have the possibility of laser driven boil to plasma propulsions.

The propellant might be water.  Water could come from the Moon, or Hydrogen from Earth and Oxygen from the Moon, or maybe even water from asteroids.

Water being good as it is compatible with farming and also shielding from radiation.  Magnetic plasma bubbles also have some protective side effects other than propulsion.

Done.

Done.


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#347 2022-07-03 16:40:46

Void
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Registered: 2011-12-29
Posts: 4,665

Re: Worlds, and World Engine type terraform stuff.

Anton Petrov does some very nice articles: 16 Psyche
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k4KZHT-wV-8

My best guess on the metal volcanism would be if it had volatiles in it it might have foamed upon approaching the surface.  And so erupt even more, with a low gravity though the bubbles might not have all surfaced and popped before cooling.

Just a guess.

There could be some hope of water and other volatiles ether in that or in dust collected over the ages, hydrated minerals perhaps.


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#348 2022-07-03 16:52:16

Void
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Registered: 2011-12-29
Posts: 4,665

Re: Worlds, and World Engine type terraform stuff.

I am probably on my last day of quarantine for Covid, and bored so.....

As I often do I am pirating materials from other topic to bend them to another shape.
Index» Interplanetary transportation» Could the SuperHeavy booster be SSTO?
Posts #1 to #14.

I can see the advantages of the SSTO notion as statistically sooner or later a rocket stack will blow up.  Having just the "Starship" on the pad will reduce the damage, and indeed the likelihood.

But I will also advocate the notion of putting that 2nd stage on a superheavy, and stuffing it with cargo.  200 tons???

Then you have the cargo in orbit, and also the ships shell.

I agree with kbd512 that you would want a method to bring some parts like engines and avionics back down by some method.

But then as Dr. Johnson has previously explained, you have a shell, which is exposed to the space environment and which at best could offer pressurization, but not protection from radiation, thermal swings, impactors, ect.

Yet it is my feeling that if you had a slo-mo but efficient propulsion method you might bring that to another worlds orbits, and add materials from that world.  Luna, Phobos, Deimos, Asteroids?

In this case the upper stage remnant is of high quality materials manufactured on Earth, but the fortifications it would need added could be of lower quality materials that could be produced on these other worlds.

A more obvious treatment would be to land them on a world and for instance perhaps cover them with regolith, to improve their qualities.
That might have value.

But I would also like to suggest that these things could be put in a low Lunar orbit, and have materials added to them, and then they would fly to a higher orbit or another world such as the orbits of Earth or Mars after that.

Again, for the trip away from the Moon, you would use some slo-mo propulsion such as Ion-Argon, or Magnetic Bubble with solar wind.  It seems likely that Argon can be had from the Moon, and of course many other materials.

I guess that lays the groundwork.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2022-07-03 17:07:55)


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#349 2022-07-03 19:03:08

Calliban
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From: Northern England, UK
Registered: 2019-08-18
Posts: 1,955

Re: Worlds, and World Engine type terraform stuff.

I know we have discussed this before.  Here is an article written by Robert Zubrin concerning the use of nuclear heat sources to melt ice covered lakes on Mars.
https://www.centauri-dreams.org/2020/05 … -for-mars/

In principle, we could build purpose built aqueous homogenous reactors for this task.  They would not need to operate at high temperature, as we intend to use them to generate heat.  A reactor operating at temperature of 100°C would only need to be pressurised to 1 bar and could make use of a single low pressure turbine, with lake water pumped through its condenser.

The reactor itself would be a stainless steel tank containing water with dissolved uranium and thorium salts.  A clever design would achieve unity breeding ratio, allowing fission products to be removed and thorium salts added continuously.  1GW-yr of thermal power production would consume about 300kg of thorium salt.  It should be possible to build extremely powerful AHR reactors very cheaply, especially if heat is the desired product.

In such a situation we don't really need to care as much about efficiency, as the cost of the heat producing system will increase only slightly with increasing power.  The heat exchangers will scale with power.  At the sort of low pressures considered here they could be cast iron maybe even ceramic tube.  A simple, slow rotating turbine can be constructed from carbon steels.  The casing can be cast iron, along with the condenser.

Last edited by Calliban (2022-07-03 19:25:04)


"Plan and prepare for every possibility, and you will never act. It is nobler to have courage as we stumble into half the things we fear than to analyse every possible obstacle and begin nothing. Great things are achieved by embracing great dangers."

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#350 2022-07-03 19:16:03

kbd512
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Registered: 2015-01-02
Posts: 5,842

Re: Worlds, and World Engine type terraform stuff.

Calliban,

If you're still online right now, then you could join the NewMars Nightowl web session, if you want to.

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