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As an addendum to my post this thread #132, I implied but did not directly mention the absolute lack of ground clearance in design #1. Design #2 seems to have been designed by someone with some actual off-road driving experience. The powertrain layout is reminiscent of a W.W. II Greyhound M-8 Armored Car designed and built by Ford.
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Little tires suck in sand and on the moon the layer of dusts it would be worse. Large tires do not get stuck ad a track works even better for terrain that is rougher in the case for mars. Telsa has a car and not a peep for Elon for vehicles for Mars to go with the massive BFR /Starship build up of design which has little other supporting documents for a manefest or life support. It has no Insitu processing plant or anything for refueling in a detaied report video's do not cut it but some one taking the time to transcribe them might aid in proving or disproving the numbers which are being used.
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Great overview video of Mars settlement project (with Space X to the lead) from "Martian Colonist" (Ryan MacDonald).
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nJOsTuBDd9M
Some highlights: Steel 301 has great properties. Raptor engine production being raised to one per day. $2-3 billion development cost for Starship-SuperHeavy. Mk 1 20 Km flight in Nov-Dec. Orbital with Mk 4 or 5 in April 2020, with Flight with humans as early as Oct 2020. Ryan still not ruling out a 2024 human mission to Mars (launch in Sept 2024).
Only thing I disagree with Ryan is his claim that equator is best place for solar - don't think that true. I believe it's latitude 29 is best.
12:20 discussion of landing sites. 100 m thick layers of water ice with only one metre covering.
16:00 discussion of 3D printing of protective structures to cover pre-constructed habs.
18:50 Most interesting for me, as I hadn't heard about this before I think, seems like the idea of a bio-regenerative hab is coming of age. China has made a lot of progress and the Lunar Palace 1 was a great success -with 4 people able to grow 80% of their food in 500 cubic metres, produce all their oxygen from within the hab and recycle all their water.
Let's Go to Mars...Google on: Fast Track to Mars blogspot.com
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Louis-
Thanks for the Ryan McDonald video. Our Mars Society group in Boulder was allowed to preview several of these 3-D printed Mars habitat proposals, and the one illustrated received high marks from our University of Colorado sponsor, who was a Professor of Environmental Design (previously called architecture). In our meeting, we discussed such things as overall livability and traffic flow within the structure as opposed to ease of construction. Use of basalt also received high marks and the general radiation protection seems just barely adequate, but would work in cases other that a massive coronal outburst from the sun.
Rodger
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Little tires suck in sand and on the moon the layer of dusts it would be worse. Large tires do not get stuck ad a track works even better for terrain that is rougher in the case for mars. Telsa has a car and not a peep for Elon for vehicles for Mars to go with the massive BFR /Starship build up of design which has little other supporting documents for a manifest or life support. It has no Insitu processing plant or anything for refueling in a detaied report video's do not cut it but some one taking the time to transcribe them might aid in proving or disproving the numbers which are being used.
SpaceNut- In the post presentation video done by Tim Dodd (I think?), Elon was questioned about transportation on Mars' surface, where he replied that a standard Tesla would probably work. It has the usable powertrain, but not the extra rugged design.
We all noted at our local Mars Society meeting that ALL of Elon's business ventures could interlock with functions on Mars: Solar Power; Boring Company; Tesla; and of course, SpaceX.
Last edited by Oldfart1939 (2019-10-12 12:19:50)
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It does seem like 3D construction is a feasible approach now. That the structures are pleasing on the eye is a plus!
I have always been a fan of use of basalt. It's very versatile. Aside from fibre glass, it could be used for kitchen utensils, furniture, plumbing, floor coverings and facing walls.
PS I think Ryan is now based in the USA. Perhaps you should invite him along to one of your meetings...
Louis-
Thanks for the Ryan McDonald video. Our Mars Society group in Boulder was allowed to preview several of these 3-D printed Mars habitat proposals, and the one illustrated received high marks from our University of Colorado sponsor, who was a Professor of Environmental Design (previously called architecture). In our meeting, we discussed such things as overall livability and traffic flow within the structure as opposed to ease of construction. Use of basalt also received high marks and the general radiation protection seems just barely adequate, but would work in cases other that a massive coronal outburst from the sun.
Rodger
Last edited by louis (2019-10-12 15:33:24)
Let's Go to Mars...Google on: Fast Track to Mars blogspot.com
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I would rather take an electric hybird SUV or crosstrek which have started to make there way into the general public in the last few years.
Printing a 3d structure has more to do with the preperation of the materials that will make it as much as the equipment to build it as both steps are energy hogs for early mars without a large power grid to draw from.
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I think Musk could have a really good Tesla-systems based rover ready in 3 years. The Tesla has best range of all electrics with best capacity for load and passenger comfort.
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...and beyond to Jupiter?
Elon Musk's SpaceX lands NASA launch contract for mission to Jupiter's moon Europa
https://www.euronews.com/next/2021/07/2 … oon-europa
Will Musk put tourism in the direction of the Moon and Mars?
This article hates the tourist thing
https://www.wsj.com/articles/blue-origi … 1626968962
The Case Against Space Tourism
Last edited by Mars_B4_Moon (2021-07-24 14:08:12)
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SpaceX's Starship will be ready for 1st orbital flight in July, Elon Musk says
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...and beyond to Jupiter?
Elon Musk's SpaceX lands NASA launch contract for mission to Jupiter's moon Europa
https://www.euronews.com/next/2021/07/2 … oon-europaWill Musk put tourism in the direction of the Moon and Mars?
This article hates the tourist thing
https://www.wsj.com/articles/blue-origi … 1626968962
The Case Against Space Tourism
Mars_B4_Moon, do you have an opinion on the pros and cons of space tourism as a business model?
Posting links is all very well, but you do that rather a lot in a lot of different places. It would be refreshing if we could get your 'take' on at least some of these issues. These boards are supposed to be about interplay between different members, exploring different ideas. That is how the knowledge develops. I would be interested to learn what 'you' think about some of the things you reference. Are there things that you think are good ideas or bad ideas? If so, why?
Last edited by Calliban (2022-06-26 13:02:12)
"Plan and prepare for every possibility, and you will never act. It is nobler to have courage as we stumble into half the things we fear than to analyse every possible obstacle and begin nothing. Great things are achieved by embracing great dangers."
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For Calliban re #136
Your comment caught my eye, so i asked FluxBB to show me all (nearly) 3000 posts by Mars_B4_Moon...
I went back to the beginning of his membership, and confirmed what I expected .... he has been searching the Internet for interesting news, and making the very briefest of comments, if any at all.
We have plenty of members who are able and willing to make comments.
We have vanishingly few willing to perform the services that Mars_B4_Moon takes on.
I recommend that if any of our members ** likes ** what Mars_B4_Moon is doing, please provide encouragement.
(th)
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I don't have a problem with what Mars_B4_Moon does, which is useful I agree. I would just like to hear what he thinks about things from time to time. It would add colour to his contributions.
"Plan and prepare for every possibility, and you will never act. It is nobler to have courage as we stumble into half the things we fear than to analyse every possible obstacle and begin nothing. Great things are achieved by embracing great dangers."
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I think posting about technology is great. Sometimes I get ideas from things that are posted that I've never seen or heard of. However, knowing what Mars_B4_Moon thinks about the technology from time-to-time would be even better. That said, I'm in favor of members contributing in whatever way they think is best, and don't wish to change how or what they post, so long as it falls within the forum rules. Maybe Mars_B4_Moon is gathering up all the latest and greatest about technology so that it's all in one place if someone wants to go hunting for it. As I said, to each his or her own.
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Mars_B4_Moon, do you have an opinion on the pros and cons of space tourism as a business model?
Posting links is all very well, but you do that rather a lot in a lot of different places. It would be refreshing if we could get your 'take' on at least some of these issues. These boards are supposed to be about interplay between different members, exploring different ideas. That is how the knowledge develops. I would be interested to learn what 'you' think about some of the things you reference. Are there things that you think are good ideas or bad ideas? If so, why?
Calliban
I don't see much of a con in Commericalization of Space or Space Tourism unless the guy at the top is some scammer conman. I don't really post much opinion and I am happy for others to post their opinion, if the political talk is a little packed with crazy scifi ideas anarchy like or future wacky and chaotic I don't mind as I have no problem with people having other opinions. Sometimes I might happily post some political idea on art or culture or A.I or I might avoid debate, other times I might only join in a political talk outside of the 'Free Talk not so FreeTalk' section only if I believe something is truly incorrect or wrong or needs to be said I might join in. I tend to avoid posting opinions and avoid discussion philosophical debate or talk of political belief, I do however sometimes often post comments in the 'Not So Free Chat' section of newmars and have done so for many years. This free talk and names and politics is not without issues, the Admins Mods have all kinds of stuff to deal in the past, some users getting emotional in debate during virus flu Lockdowns or way back in the earlier days with one time a fake user 'Richard Branson' was exposed an imposter. I was missing from these forums for a while as the old ikonboard changed, I missed the many bannings happening at newmars when discussion got heated here, it suddenly was less free for example people mention how an old user I remember from the earlier days of the forums Tom Kalbfus in debate sadly went into personal attacks against users on some political issue and for a time banning made discussion less free, I think free discussion on newmars seems to have balanced out more since then. If you want to see my opinions maybe check the Freechat section where for example I speak against possible future issues like the spread of the cult islamism sending civilization backward, otherwise I will often avoid posting any political position. I believe commercialization is good for space and overall 'Space Tourism' has been a positive thing. The Russians with more sanctions incoming due to the War now seem completely out of the game even if they made past contributions, MIR opened up a route for commercialization of space with the Soviet Union collapse, Pepsi once opted to film a commercial, sending an oversize "can," promoting its new blue design, to the Russian Mir space station I don't see Russia doing much in the near future. Some ideas and companies will come and go, Bigelow never completed a working space station beyond two small prototypes that flew in 2006 and 2007 then in year 2020, the company laid off all 88 of its employees due to the COVID-19 pandemic.
Many of us have followed tourism and commercial space flight on newmars and other newsites and blogs for sometime, some watched the first tv broadcast. I remember reading the story of Dr. Helen Sharman a privately funded British Female Astronaut, first to visit the Soviet Russia MIR station, a Japanese tv journalist also went to MIR, there was Denis Tito, Mark Shuttleworth, Greg Oleen, Anousheh Ansari who flew as private 'space citizens'? News about Bezos was often posted on newmars and his investing in space, don't trust Bezos they say he's greedy he doesn't have what it takes and there was discussion of Burt Rutan and Brason and replies here of how dare these people call themselves "astronaut." Why? because real astronauts are trained at NASA and they know how to truly pilot the craft they're in. I don't really have an opinion as to what to call these people, Astronaut or Cosmonaut or space flight persons, Space Tourist or Space Flight Participant or whatever.
My opinion on the Commercial use of Space and Private Sector in Space is simple, if its there, an empty bunk on Skylab and an empty section of Skylab waiting to be exploited, a section of MIR not used and a bed ready for some person, then why not use it? It makes commercial and business sense, if someone wants to fly up to a vacant un-occupied section of a space station, run their own science experiments, maybe a multi millionaire wants to go up there and take pretty pictures out the window and read poetry about our Earth...then why not? The same applies to some future power station on Mars, Europa, the Moon or Mercury with an empty room next to it, maybe ready to be converted into a Hotel or Store or Warehouse or Shop District or whatever. That also applies to people using a future Space station like part of the Gateway or part of the Chinese one as a Space Hotel or commercial outpost, if you have an empty bunk an empty room, empty science racks then why not exploit that potential trade and business.
For a time I used to think only a Big Government Vision would get people to Mars, something like the JFK speech and even some rival like the days of the US-Soviet SpaceRace. I was one of the early critics of Musk, his rockets used to fail, there was debate about expendable rockets and re-used vehicles, he was almost bankrupt a few of us users here used to be critical and think he might only clim so high, many said Elon Musk may not go far beyond Branson or Bezos feats. I do not mind been corrected and proven wrong, times can go through political change and a course might mutate into another direction, new events evolve. However he is a highly skilled and intelligent guy and something different started to happen with Musk and his rockets suddenly started working and becoming successful, if you look at the Systems, the Complexes, the Human Landing System Comparison, the different Rockets perhaps he is offering the best. Looking back it is understandable a lot of negative press out there is possibly generated lobbyist type by Big Oil and Big Auto, they anti EV type, Bezos himself is a rival and has hands inside News Media giving him the ability to launch anti-Musk propaganda, he perhaps has made 'enemies' providing phone sat service for news on the War coming out of Ukraine, he has changed political position and become more Republican or Libertarian over time and thus also made foes of sorts within the nu-Leftwing branch of US politics and news media and no doubts he is a type of genius which might attract other egos or jealousy.
There is a lot of hype now about Asia and China and maybe correctly so, if you imagine Economics as a Shiny Gold-Silver Ball it used to be parked almost off the shores of NewYork, maybe not to far from Iceland or London but that's where the economic center of Gravity lay, now it is shifting back to where it has been for thousands of years, moving East of Rome and going in the direction of Russia / China back to Asia where most of civilization has lived for most of human history. Would Musk have become the person he was in a place in the East or South Africa, I personally do not think so. I think there is something unique about the United States that helped people like Nikola Tesla become who they are, the new space visionary it didn't happen in Germany, Canada, the desserts of Patagonia governed by Argentina and Chile, it didn't happen in some engineers shack in Wales Britain, Thailand, Italy, Australia, it happened in the US where these free thinkers developed into the people they are. He is a unique man, I believe his mom was the loving person in the family, the father was angry and perhaps abusive however Elon seems to look like him and even admitted his father is “ brilliant at engineering ” despite being a “terrible human being” the older guy seems to have been a scientifically talented 'Renaissance Man'. His maternal grandfather might have added the exploration spirit to Musk, an adventurous type who went on record-breaking journeys in a single-engine Bellanca airplane to Africa and Australia. Perhaps going round the world. working different sites moving around and also stuck inside computers moving to Canada and the USA from South Africa, being born with a different language did not help the 'Autism' spectrum disorder. Musk a unique person, has done strange, quirky stuff, for example he is often on social media like other quirky engineers, like celebs and leader Trump was and does post sometimes controversial strange tweets, he has appeared with the weed alcoholic pot smoking type on the Joe Rogan show, sometimes people will ask over the years is Elon Musk too Nutty to run a car company? We have seen ideas rise and fall and rise again, we were supposed to have these Inflatable Blowup Space Hotels, whenever something from Bezos or Branson failed in the past it was seen as a serious blow to the alt.space movement, Musk however has proven his worth, for now I believe he is more important than NASA while NASA slowly decays over time, you do not see this collapse because it has also produced success while it decayed, the withering has been happening almost unseen very slowly.
The commerce and business side of space will always be there, for GPS sat navigation in your car, DIRECTV satellite dish, checking the spread of forest fires, scanning flood waters from space, the military will buy a ride to space for them to have eyes in the sky, asteroid mining could soon be a thing and the Space tourism thing is here to stay. The Chinese today have a massive manufacturing base and huge potential across many of their industries, in a way they might be in a similar position to the days of Japan, Taiwan, South Korea manufacturing, maybe in a ways you can look at cultures and peoples and nations as some kind of fantasy element, magical animals clashing a big Bison, a giant scifi Eagle, a space Bear, the Tiger, the Dragon or whatever mythical creatures, maybe even look at the pics from Huntington Clash of Civilizations Map. Chinese are in a unique position because people sometimes still view them in the old days of Mao and full on Communism they have things against them a demographic time bomb and lack of baby making business but their government has evolved into a more progressive nationalist socialist country, they have ambition, China plays economics to its benefits, can buy and bribe and have Chinese people across many areas of Western Civilization, something invented in the West can be reverse engineered and maybe even improved on in 6 months. Maybe Elon Reeve Musk is the winner for the US and the Western World and maybe the best hope to get commercialization and trade moving between Earth and Mars. However he might not get there fully without some government help, the ever declining relationship between the US government and Musk is why I would now refuse to call them 'Progressives' but instead Regressive Leftwings, I do not call them Liberal anymore but in recent times I see them as illiberal Anti-Libertarian. If something sudden and tragic were to happen the Biden Admin for example some idiot falls of his bike and cracks his skull against a road curb well I guess the line of succession is familiar to those from JFK's time or those who remember Reagan getting shot so now you have two other dingbats Kamala and Pelosi running the show, I believe the homosexual who Pete Buttigieg who was feeding his purchased adopted kid with fake plastic breasts ranks and went on vacation during a supply chain crisis comes in at 14. Musk might be a correct path to to the future, what I like about him is he's a 'futurologist' < < is that a real word? Or always trying to look ahead. He has his flaws, even now I see perhaps media hit piece about a transexual son / daughter, Xavier Musk, Elon Musk's transgender child and wants to change his / her name and disown his father. However did they also tell us about the successful stories and the other good stable members of the family he provided wealth for and were raised. Does every people and nation have its flaw and does every family need to be perfect even if he wasn't always around as a father figure maybe having a rich successful engineer father, a sucessful business person, a visionary it must be a good role model.
Right now if you read the news feeds China they had a small number of firsts, the first Spacecraft that Flies by Asteroid Toutatis, first new feat with soem Reactor design, the First to send a Robot Rover with some small animal life and plants inside to test a greenhouse on the Moon, first super Big Hydro Dam. Some of these firsts might be logical passionate steps and more than just Chinese 'stunts', it will probably now beat NASA and the ESA to return samples from Mars. Every month I have listened to news reports going back decades saying how China is ready to collapse next week or they will attack, I have listened to this nonsense for years how maybe in the next few weeks or months or year they will 'collapse' however I know the Chinese have been around thousands of years, it has reformed its society into a modern one and may be around sometime more so I pay these 'expert' news reports little notice. The Biden Admin might remain focused on their old friends in Boeing, Atlas, ATK with a War in Eastern Europe the focus on militarization and 'SpaceForce' will not go away. I would like if relations between the Biden Admin and Musk were better but they are not. I would hope NASA or Musk or some guy from the Western world or an astronaut guy from JPL would be there cutting the ribbon opening a new site when the first 'Space Hotel' opens on Mars but maybe it will be a Mars Hotel with a Chinese Neon Sign Ni Hao 你好 'Tourists Welcome'.
Last edited by Mars_B4_Moon (2022-06-27 11:42:29)
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Thanks Mars_B4_Moon, you are very knowledgable. I too am an admirer of Musk. He is a great engineer and has achieved what he has through a bottomless well of motivation. I envy him for that. He simply doesn't quit and eventually he wears down every obstacle in his path. I think he was too intelligent and too independant in his thinking to fit in the Left camp. Being able to fit in with such people requires that one does not ask too many awkward questions. Kind of like religion.
I think space tourism will get old very quickly. Most of the ideas appear to centre around low Earth orbit hotels. I can see people getting bored with that if it ever ceases to be a novelty. Especially if they can go to Maldives for a tenth of the price.
"Plan and prepare for every possibility, and you will never act. It is nobler to have courage as we stumble into half the things we fear than to analyse every possible obstacle and begin nothing. Great things are achieved by embracing great dangers."
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Elon Musk posts image and says 'this will be Mars one day'
https://www.tweaktown.com/news/87891/el … index.html
Musk - Mars civilization is 20-30 years after first landing
https://www.q13fox.com/news/elon-musk-m … mp;amp;amp
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