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#1 2012-10-11 04:10:16

Terraformer
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From: Ceres
Registered: 2007-08-27
Posts: 3,778
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Cross-temporal quantum entanglement

http://www.newscientist.com/article/mg2 … trick.html
http://arxiv.org/pdf/1209.4191v1.pdf

Presumably, this can be done with other quantum particles, such as electrons.

What I want to know is, since the state of photon 1 was already known prior to it's entanglement with photon 4, then surely that means that there were constraints on photon 4 - before it was entangled. Which poses the question of whether they had to use photon 1, or whether they could have decided to use one which has a state they are happy with. The problem with that is, they can then knowingly influence the state of photon 4 instantaneously. That is, they can send classical information instantaneously, backwards and forwards through time, with all the problems that poses for physics...

Say Alice generates an entangled pair of photons. She then sends on photon to Bob, with the previously agreed instruction that he will measure it at a specific time. She then generates entangled photons until she measures one with a specific state, after which she performs an entanglement swap with it's pair and the photon she has remaining from her original pair. Now the photon she has measured is entangled with Bob's photon, and thus the quantum state of Bob's photon depends upon Alice's measurement. However, Alice got to choose which photon she entangled with Bob's *after* she'd measured it, and thus could determine the state of Bob's photon - however far they were separated by.

It's a fiddly ansible, but it's an ansible nonetheless. Any ideas where my reasoning may be wrong?


"I'm gonna die surrounded by the biggest idiots in the galaxy." - If this forum was a Mars Colony

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#2 2012-10-11 08:28:24

louis
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From: UK
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Re: Cross-temporal quantum entanglement

I think this conundrum has been around for many years. I am sure I read something to the effect that you could take one sub atomic particle to the other end of the universe and it would still interact instantaneously with the other entangled particle.


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#3 2012-10-11 10:27:28

Terraformer
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From: Ceres
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Re: Cross-temporal quantum entanglement

Well yes, but the trouble was that you couldn't change the state of the particle without breaking the entanglement, so causality was safe. Now, I'm not so sure. Even if a single bit of classical information can be transmitted instantaneously, a lot of modern physics comes crashing down. Which is why I suspect my reasoning is wrong somewhere... It seems too obivous to miss.


"I'm gonna die surrounded by the biggest idiots in the galaxy." - If this forum was a Mars Colony

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#4 2012-10-11 17:00:03

SarK0Y
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Re: Cross-temporal quantum entanglement

HD (hyperdimensional) Physics it can explain as transition of particle from one subSpace to another.

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#5 2012-10-11 20:48:53

RobertDyck
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Re: Cross-temporal quantum entanglement

Quantum mechanics was first discovered by Dr. Schrödinger. Scientists couldn't understand how subatomic particles moved, but Dr. Schrödinger took a different approach. He didn't try to explain why, he said they just do. We have observed they move in a predictable way, and these mathematical formulae match what we see. So those formulae must be it. There is no "why", it just does. Dr. Einstein really didn't like the fact there wasn't an explanation why, but it works. Since Dr. Schrödinger, quantum mechanics has grown greatly, but it's still based on "there is no why, the formulae just work".

Then there's my idea. I have looked at various problems in physics and came up with my own idea. It's strongly based on relativity. I start with the fact relativity predicts an object moving very quickly will shrink in its direction of motion. As it approaches the speed of light, its length approaches zero. My idea is that the dimension in the direction of travel collapses as you approach the speed of light. If you could achieve the speed of light, the dimension would collapse entirely. It would become a 3 dimension object in our 4 dimensional space-time universe. Photons are such a particle. Also relativity calculates that time inside the object slows, at the speed of light time stops. So the waves that compose a photon act like a solid object because time inside the photon has stopped entirely. On the other had, an electron travels very close to the speed of light, but not quite. That means it has 3 and a fraction dimensions. That fractional dimension is described by fractal mathematics. And fractal mathematics is the mathematics of chaos. That's why electrons act to chaotically. The faster they go, the more their 4th dimension shrinks, changing the fractal.

I call my idea "flexible dimension theory". There's an even longer explanation why. More physics stuff.

Quantum mechanics says entangled particle pairs respond instantaneously across any distance. There is no signal, no propagation delay, and no limit to its range. According to flexible dimension theory, the dimension between the particles has collapsed, so from the perspective of the particles they're sitting on one another. There is no propagation delay because there is no distance separating them. You can separate them by any distance in real space, but because they particle has the dimension between them collapsed, the particles to not "see" that distance. The following analogy is crude, but it makes it easy to understand. Let the 3 dimensions of space be represented by a 2 dimensional sheet of paper. Place to markers (marbles, post-it-notes, or whatever) on the sheet. Now bend the sheet around so the paper touches between the markers. The markers are now separated by twice the thickness of that piece of paper, but they're pressing against each other. If you jiggle one marker, the other marker moves with it. The signal does not pass across the length of the paper; it passes though where they touch. The distance along the paper could be any distance, the length of 8.5"x11" office paper, a piece of newspaper, or a paper tape that's miles long, it doesn't matter. The "signal" when you jiggle one marker does not pass along the length of the paper, passes through where the two makers are pressed against each other.

Of course if you were to knock one particle so that the collapsed dimension no longer aligns with its partner, then the quantum link will be broken. As soon as the collapsed dimension no longer aligns, any signal has to pass through real space, so distance then becomes real. The trick is to "entangle" the waves within the particles so they interact with one another, then they'll hold onto each other. A gentle push will just cause the waves to push back. But if you push a particle hard enough so the collapsed dimension no longer aligns with it's partner, then the link is broken.

Establishing a link would be very difficult. Imagine aiming a bullet where your target is the diameter of an electron, while it's moving randomly at greater than 90% the speed of light. Good luck hitting that! But two electrons in the same orbital of an atom are so close, the alignment could be off by something like 60% and the dimension would still pass through its partner. The trick is to tease a pair of electrons out from a single atom without breaking the entanglement link. Then place one electron in the quantum well in one microchip (Integrated Circuit), place it's partner in the quantum well of another. Viola, you have a quantum communication device.

Because a photon travels at the speed of light, it has no randomness and its range is infinite. However, if flexible dimension theory is correct, an electron on partially collapses one dimension. That means randomness and a limit to its range. I have no idea how to calculate that range. I would hope it's significant, such as the distance from Earth to Mars. Containing a photon is very difficult, basically no one can do it now. So using photons is not practical. Electrons require a microchip; something modern electronics knows how to make quite well.

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#6 2012-10-12 01:11:48

bobunf
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From: Phoenix, AZ
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Posts: 223

Re: Cross-temporal quantum entanglement

My favorite quote from Erwin Schrödinger with respect to quantum theory: "I don't like it, and I'm sorry I had anything to do with it."

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#7 2012-10-12 01:42:39

RobertDyck
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From: Winnipeg, Canada
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Re: Cross-temporal quantum entanglement

Reading the article, it's not a dramatic as the author makes it sound. They entangle photons 1 & 2, then measure #1 with a destructive method. Then entangle 3 & 4. Then entangle 2 & 3. The result, they claim, is that 4 is now "entangled" with 1, after 1 is destroyed. But then they didn't manipulate the particle, they just measured it. That's like saying person 1 writes a book in collaboration with person 2. Then years later a pair of younger people, persons 3 & 4 write a book. Then they introduce senior citizen called person 2 to university student person 3. But while they do so, person 3 is still talking to his locker partner from university, person 4. Then someone notices that a book written by person 4 somehow looks just like something that person 1 wrote! Un huh. Right. The idea was passed on, so why are you surprised that person 4 now writes something similar to person 1, long after person 1 died. You know, this can be done much simpler by having person 4 read a book written by person 1 long after person 1 died. Is that "quantum entanglement" across time? No, I would call it "reading". The quantum state of a series of photons were set, using one to set the state of another. It's a chain. Once you set the state, it stays.

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#8 2012-10-12 06:01:30

Terraformer
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From: Ceres
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Re: Cross-temporal quantum entanglement

Well, not quite. My problem with the entanglement here is that Alice is free to choose which photon she entangles with Bob's, so she is able to determine Bob's photon's state from an arbritary distance...

Of course, doing so might cause the entanglement swap to fail, preserving causality.


"I'm gonna die surrounded by the biggest idiots in the galaxy." - If this forum was a Mars Colony

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#9 2020-09-10 14:04:37

tahanson43206
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Registered: 2018-04-27
Posts: 16,406

Re: Cross-temporal quantum entanglement

For SpaceNut ... I think it might be time to bring this topic back into view.

It turns out that RobertDyck was a contributor to the first round, and he has reenergized the topic in his Large Ship topic.

He asked a question along the lines of "how do you maintain a photon across a distance"  Apparently there are teams hard at work in an attempt to answer that question.

I thought this quote from Wikipedia was helpful ... it indicates entanglement has been observed in a wide variety of particles ...

Quantum entanglement has been demonstrated experimentally with photons, neutrinos, electrons, molecules as large as buckyballs, and even small diamonds. The utilization of entanglement in communication, computation and quantum radar is a very active area of research and development.
Quantum entanglement - Wikipedia
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quantum_entanglement

(th)

Last edited by tahanson43206 (2020-09-10 14:05:09)

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#10 2020-09-10 17:34:46

SpaceNut
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From: New Hampshire
Registered: 2004-07-22
Posts: 28,595

Re: Cross-temporal quantum entanglement

The photon and its data elements over distance is not the issue its how a collection of them move from the start towards a far off destination. Much like the rays of them blasting away from the sun they tend to spread out and once far enough away from the source gravity of anything that passes by them will influence that straight line that they are leaving on. This is what happens with solar energy collection the farther you are from the sun as the m^2 power creation drops with distance....

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#11 2021-01-26 13:44:40

tahanson43206
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Registered: 2018-04-27
Posts: 16,406

Re: Cross-temporal quantum entanglement

Here is a hint of work ongoing in China ...

It is taken from an advertisement for an eNewsletter. 

Scientists create integrated quantum communication network

Scientists from the University of Science and Technology of China have established what they claim is the world's first integrated quantum communication network.

if anyone in the forum readership is interested my guess is it would not be difficult to find the original source material.

As stated earlier in this topic, such a communications system would be advantageous for the Large Ship project.

(th)

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#12 2021-03-26 09:36:00

tahanson43206
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Registered: 2018-04-27
Posts: 16,406

Re: Cross-temporal quantum entanglement

Here's another update in the Quantum space ...

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/technolo … d=msedgdhp

Quantum computing: How basic broadband fiber could pave the way to the next breakthrough
Daphne Leprince-Ringuet  2 hrs ago
The usefulness of most quantum computers is still significantly limited by the low number of qubits that hardware can support. But simple fiber optic cables – just like the ones used for broadband connections – could be the answer.

The implication of this announcement, if I understand it correctly, is that quantum computing may develop even faster than it already is.

One detail included in the article is that the temperature at which quantum computing takes place is millikelvins.  I'd not heard this detail before, so appreciate the update.

(th)

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#13 2021-05-12 07:07:11

tahanson43206
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Registered: 2018-04-27
Posts: 16,406

Re: Cross-temporal quantum entanglement

https://www.yahoo.com/finance/news/dutc … 43063.html

I noted that there’s more than one type of quantum computer. He countered “We are in principle agnostic to what kind of quantum computer it is. All we do at the moment is we focus on the microwave part, so we can work with superconducting qubits, topological qubits etc. We can convert microwaves to optical signals and they can talk to each other. Currently, the only competitors I know are all the in the academic world. So this is we're the first company to actually starts building a real product.”

Rick Hao, Principal with Speedinvest’s Deep Tech team, added: “ We want to invest in seed-stage deep technology startups that shape the future and QphoX is well-positioned to make a major impact. Over the next couple of years, there will be rapid progress in quantum computers. Quantum Modem, the product developed by QphoX, enables the development of quantum computers that demonstrate quantum advantage by combining separate quantum processors."

(th)

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#14 2021-08-01 16:18:01

tahanson43206
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Registered: 2018-04-27
Posts: 16,406

Re: Cross-temporal quantum entanglement

For SpaceNut .... there is only one topic with "quantum" in the title, but I think it should work for this post:

248,939,925 km [22.0 km/s] at 9:30

1050 1113 1177

https://www.yahoo.com/entertainment/goo … 41870.html

Google’s time crystal discovery is so big, we can’t fully comprehend it
Chris Smith
Sun, August 1, 2021 1:09 PM

To understand Google’s time crystals, The Next Web offers a great analogy with snowflakes. They have unique designs, as the atoms are arranged in specific ways. Snow falls, melts, water evaporates, and then it’ll eventually become snow again. All these processes involve energy exchanges. A time crystal would be like having a snowflake that can change between two configurations back and forth with no energy usage or energy loss. Time crystals can have their cake and eat it too, and they can do it perpetually.

This is speculative, but the article is written for a Scientific American audience, so I think it might of interest to NewMars.

(th)

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#15 2022-03-08 18:17:33

Mars_B4_Moon
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Registered: 2006-03-23
Posts: 8,674

Re: Cross-temporal quantum entanglement

Space Station to host 'self-healing' quantum communications tech demo
https://www.spacedaily.com/reports/Spac … o_999.html

The NASA-funded experiment will test two technologies that could eventually enable quantum computers to communicate with each other no matter where they are located. A tiny experiment launching to the International Space Station later this year could set the stage for a future global quantum network. Called the Space Entanglement and Annealing QUantum Experiment (or SEAQUE), the milk-carton-size technology demonstration will test two communications technologies in the harsh environment of space.

Quantum computers hold the promise of operating millions of times faster than conventional computers, and distributed quantum sensors may lead to new understandings of Earth and our place in the universe by measuring minute changes in gravity. But for quantum computers or quantum sensors to communicate, they will require a dedicated communications network. A key component of this network will be space "nodes" that can receive and transmit quantum data to and from the ground via free-space optical communications.

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#16 2022-04-20 06:58:12

Mars_B4_Moon
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Registered: 2006-03-23
Posts: 8,674

Re: Cross-temporal quantum entanglement

Could this Chinese helium cooling system give quantum tech a lift?

https://www.scmp.com/news/china/science … -tech-lift

' All these developments were using sensors cooled by helium-3. '

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#17 2022-06-03 05:23:49

Mars_B4_Moon
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Registered: 2006-03-23
Posts: 8,674

Re: Cross-temporal quantum entanglement

World First Room Temperature Quantum Computer Installed in Australia

https://www.tomshardware.com/news/world … m-computer

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#18 2022-06-09 07:37:20

Mars_B4_Moon
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Registered: 2006-03-23
Posts: 8,674

Re: Cross-temporal quantum entanglement

Quantum Chip Brings 9,000 Years of Compute Down to Microseconds
https://www.tomshardware.com/news/quant … croseconds

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#19 2022-06-17 10:16:27

Mars_B4_Moon
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Registered: 2006-03-23
Posts: 8,674

Re: Cross-temporal quantum entanglement

Diamonds can be used in quantum sensing.

https://www.scienceinter.com/2022/06/di … nsing.html

Quantum sensing offers the possibility of extremely accurate monitoring of temperature, as well as magnetic and electric fields, with nanometer precision. By observing how these properties affect energy level differences within the sensing molecule, new avenues in nanotechnology and quantum computing may become viable.

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#20 2022-06-27 05:41:25

Mars_B4_Moon
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Registered: 2006-03-23
Posts: 8,674

Re: Cross-temporal quantum entanglement

Quantum sensor can detect electromagnetic signals of any frequency

https://news.mit.edu/2022/quantum-sensor-frequency-0621

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#21 2022-07-05 05:08:20

Mars_B4_Moon
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Registered: 2006-03-23
Posts: 8,674

Re: Cross-temporal quantum entanglement

Another article

'Quantum Processor Completes 9,000 Years of Work in 36 Microseconds'

However this does not seem to be a real Quantum computer as described in scifi books, it instead would use a  restricted model of non-universal quantum computation.

https://twistedsifter.com/2022/07/quant … roseconds/

Technology continues to move forward at incredible speeds and it seems like every week we learn about a new breakthrough that changes our minds about what is possible.

Researchers in Toronto used a photonic quantum computer chip to solve a sampling problem that went way beyond the fastest computers and algorithms.

The paper the researchers published says that the Borealis quantum chip took only 36 microseconds to solve a problem that would take supercomputers and algorithms 9,000 years to figure out.

Yes, you read that right…9,000 years.

Last edited by Mars_B4_Moon (2022-07-05 05:08:47)

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#22 2022-07-07 06:52:45

Mars_B4_Moon
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Registered: 2006-03-23
Posts: 8,674

Re: Cross-temporal quantum entanglement

Mathematical calculations show that quantum communication across interstellar space should be possible. Paper authors also suggest that quantum teleportation across interstellar space should be possible

https://phys.org/news/2022-07-mathemati … space.html


Noise-resistant quantum computing comes a step closer

https://physicsworld.com/a/noise-resist … ep-closer/


The key to quantum computing AI applications: Flexible programming languages

https://venturebeat.com/2022/07/02/the- … languages/

3D quantum spin liquid discovery gains theoretical support

https://physicsworld.com/a/3d-quantum-s … l-support/

For decades, quantum spin liquids were seen as largely hypothetical, with real-world examples thought to exist only in unusual systems such as quasi-one-dimensional chain-like magnets and a handful of two-dimensional materials. Then, in 2019, researchers at Rice University in the US and McMaster University in Canada found experimental evidence that a pyrochlore magnet, Ce2Zr2O7, could be a long-sought-after example of a three-dimensional quantum spin liquid (3D QSL). This “experimental conjecture” has now received further support from physicists at Rice and Florida State University in the US. Working with colleagues at the Max Planck Institute for Physics of Complex Systems in Dresden, Germany, the researchers used a combination of theoretical techniques to conclude that Ce2Zr2O7 (CZO for short) is indeed a 3D QSL.

QSLs form when atoms in solid magnetic materials cannot arrange their magnetic moments (or spins) into a regular and stable pattern. This “frustrated” behaviour is very different from that of ordinary ferromagnets or antiferromagnets, which have spins that point in the same or alternating directions, respectively.

Quantum mechanics explains this frustration by suggesting that the orientation of the spins is not rigid. Instead, the spins constantly change direction in a fluid-like way, producing an entangled ensemble of spin-ups and spin-downs. Thanks to this behaviour, a QSL will remain in a liquid state even at temperatures near absolute zero, where most materials freeze solid.

Last edited by Mars_B4_Moon (2022-07-07 07:07:27)

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#23 2022-07-07 12:38:05

RobertDyck
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From: Winnipeg, Canada
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Re: Cross-temporal quantum entanglement

Mars_B4_Moon wrote:

Paper authors also suggest that quantum teleportation across interstellar space should be possible

Not so much. Communication, absolutely! But teleportation requires reassembling your body exactly, molecule for molecule. Do you realize how complex that would be?

More realistic would be using quantum communication to operate a telepresence device. If you could operate a robot on another planet, with arms and legs and smartphone cameras for eyes, wouldn't you? The cameras don't even need to follow your eyes, as long as they're high resolution. The head of the robot need only track your head movements. Think Oculus Rift.

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#24 2022-07-26 03:40:13

Mars_B4_Moon
Member
Registered: 2006-03-23
Posts: 8,674

Re: Cross-temporal quantum entanglement

Strange new phase of matter created in quantum computer acts like it has two time dimensions
https://phys.org/news/2022-07-strange-p … sions.html

RobertDyck wrote:

Do you realize how complex that would be?

I won't say yes but I understand if you stopped all science and had every power source, every possible future magical atom printer and super computer dedicated to doing this on Earth, with near future tech, we still would not have the power or understanding of measurement to pull off any kind of feat on this level.

However we can dream, we speculate, we can think of the math involved, we can dream as Jules Verne, Lowell, Schiaparelli did. We can analyze and we can dream one day we will be living on more than one planet, one day we might hold the power of Stars and DysonSpheres and play with matter as gods of folklore or flying space spanning super space creatures in cartoons do. Maybe one day in a far future, we could make an almost exact copy of a 'cent' or teleport a penny. Plus if science one day almost reached the level of magic, where you were one day teleported would the new teleported person be somewhat 'fake' would they get every cell and atom exactly correct or humans being 'imperfect' would they teleport each imperfection down to the sub atomic, even if you or I or anyone else were to calculate pi perhaps we would all have our calculation that was approximately equal to 3.14159 each answer would be almost the same. So even if you could teleport a copy of a person, this cloned teleportation would it be an almost copied almost exact version of the original man or item, would this cause mental or memory flaw, would it have the same soul or personality? Ship of Theseus is an old story yet still holds great meaning even today, a thought experiment about whether an object that has had all of its components replaced remains fundamentally the same object.

Last edited by Mars_B4_Moon (2022-07-26 03:41:40)

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#25 2022-07-27 16:03:09

Mars_B4_Moon
Member
Registered: 2006-03-23
Posts: 8,674

Re: Cross-temporal quantum entanglement

Team scripts breakthrough quantum algorithm

https://phys.org/news/2022-07-team-scri … rithm.html

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