Biden Admin $800 Billion Bill passed in Congress Senate, Debt Ceiling?

Mars_B4_Moon · 2021-10-07 18:08:24

Billions upon billion have already been passed.

The Biden Kamala Harris intended to sign short-term bill raising debt ceiling. You can not blame all this on one single Republican or one single Democrat. Before this we have seen the costly expansion of wars in Iraq and Afghanistan overseen by Bush and Obama, little George Bush jnr and Neo-Cons getting the USA into a near endless war. More recently we have seen the 'CARES Act' that happened last year during the election on Trump's watch a $2.2 trillion economic stimulus bill, while Trump was controversial he did not start any new wars in the Middle East.
I don't think any place in the world has this economic push forward and keeping Western civilisation moving ahead of the others like China, they don't really have it figured out, Australia will be in recession, India although it is close to Russia and BRICS it trades with the West and it is possible it will also shrink, Europe may divide into bickering states. However seen as a big bailout might be coming and the USA is generally seen as the Leader of the Western world let's look at how much it will spend and how much US President Biden might spend on space.

The Covid Stimulus or American Rescue Plan Act of 2021, the Financial Services and Education and Labor committees released a draft of $1.9 trillion stimulus legislation. We had a discussion here on newmars about how much these bankers bailouts cost, how much wars cost, how much Corona stimulus costs and talk before about budgets and how much NASA actually will spend on Space Exploration or Colonization, and how many 'Apollo Sized Projects' could be funed with this money, it naturally had a political element to the talk.

kbd512 wrote:

Anything that doesn't funnel money into the districts occupied by their voter base is simply a dead program, because it won't receive any funding.

This was a comment on Musk and the US Car Industry

dicktice wrote:

All Ford and GM have to do is, convert asap to hybrid electric gasoline and diesel cars and trucks and busses, and get cities of the world to prohibit any more new non-hybrids on the streets. Let 'em go the way of the urban horse and wagons, and sell only new hybrids from now on.

my comments on NASA's budget and spending

Mars_B4_Moon wrote:

Budget I'm not sure about Apollo money I forgot the figures but the cost of the War in Iraq and Afghanistan could have funded multiple Apollo style missions including a mission to Alpha Centauri and back, if you stacked the bailout money in single US Dollars like a sky scraper they would stack up here to the Moon and back. The next recession and 8 Trillion was used to Bailout America during the 2008 Bush-Obama era recession, they also bought up $700 billion worth of mortgage-backed securities. NASA's budget for financial year for 2020 was $22.6 billion. That number represents less than half of one percent of the $4.7 trillion the United States planned to spend in the fiscal year

This was a remark by SpaceNut on the Covid deaths under the Trump and Biden admin, Trump had 300,000 + Deaths I believe Biden has now doubled Trumps numbers in Corona Dead

SpaceNut wrote:

due to the rising cases and hospitalization mayors and governors have stepped up with orders from the executive branches of power that they hold to make changes to how we control or not the death rates and infection rates for this virus.
Most stores still have plenty of masks on display as well as hand sanitizers but they were over priced to start with so people have ordered online for the cost breaks and not buying local.

British have a gasoline petrol shortage

The Shipping and Cargo backing up on the West Coast?

SpaceNut wrote:

So its a cost cutting measure over contracting third party...

Robert thinks Mars will be free but people don't want Mars colonized because they will have an opportunity to be free

RobertDyck wrote:

I feel Mars must be the Libertarian Paradise. The whole point of moving to Mars is to tell government where to shove it!

This was a comment on plan Bezos / NASA / Musk

kbd512 wrote:

Yep, Amazon and other online retailers put brick and mortar stores out of business. Jeff Bezos is a democrat, though, so this is just "creative destruction", right? So, what's next, boss? More "eat the rich" nonsense?

louis wrote:

The NASA budget has been something like $20 billion for many years now. I may be a few billion out...but it's a very substantial sum. It is clear from the example of Space X that NASA could have got to Mars 20 years ago or more with that sort of budget. But rather than focus on a few key projects, NASA has pursued a defuse approach which has spread the budget too thin. If we'd had a Mars base for 20 years all the money frittered on various probes could have been consolidated into the Mars project.

Now the Biden Admin is using alarmist talk like talking about a Finanical Meteor crashing into the Economy, the Biden Admin just insulted anyone who disagrees with his $4.5 trillion spending binge. The actual real “infrastructure” bill seems to be worth more than $1 trillion but in the bill there is piolitical stuff which contains a whole lot that isn’t infrastructure and a spending package worth over $3.5 trillion focused on huge expansions of the US Federal State. Now they have discussed printing or minting a Trillion Dollar Coin, I think what may have happened here is Paul Krugman may have been trolling or baiting the Fed when he said the Federal Reserve could make this 'magic coin' Janet Yellen was then drawn into a conversation about if thew USA or the Fed could mint a platinum coin with a face value of $1 trillion...other news media are now running with this story. You might not have liked or agreed with Trump but we are now entering a new Technocracy era and bviously the loss of Free Speech, the banning of the 45th President Donald Trump across Twitter, Facebook, Snapchat etc pointedly from Big Social Media. Now with the new stimuls or Covid relief or Corona bailout and with so much money being taken from taxpayers and funneled to political pet projects, it’s not exactly surprising that some predict bad economic impact of this plan, less buying power from the US Dollar, possible devaluation, a rise in fuel price, possible inflation and an increase in taxes. They now say U.S. government is set to run out of money to pay its bills, including salaries of Federal-Employees and to pay Security benefits. So, in theory, maybe Paul Krugman is not trolling and in reality President Joe Biden could order Treasury Secretary Janet Yellen to have a coin with the value of $1 trillion be minted and deposited into the Treasury, this basically prints debt but gives Biden power giving the government an extra trillion dollars to cover debts and prevent default.

Some general news

Biden Tells Debt Ceiling Ghost Stories
https://finance.townhall.com/columnists … d-n2597113

US President Biden criticizes GOP lawmakers for 'dangerous' debt ceiling inaction, warns of interest rate hikes
https://www.foxbusiness.com/personal-fi … rest-rates

Biden enlists CEOs to warn of default if debt cap not raised
https://www.kansas.com/news/business/ar … 97527.html

President Biden claims debt ceiling ‘meteor’ will ‘crash into economy’ amid limit dithering
https://nypost.com/2021/10/06/biden-cla … dithering/

Last edited by Mars_B4_Moon (2021-10-08 04:56:55)

Mars_B4_Moon · 2021-10-07 18:31:21

Here is that crazy story about the Trillion Dollar Coin

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/articl … -debt.html

https://www.voanews.com/a/can-a-single- … 60681.html

We are in a strange period with former US President Trump banned on much of the internet, his voice is banned on Facebook, Twitter, Snapchat etc Trump is banned while the Taliban and islamists are allowed have social media accounts! However there are now websites growing that exist outside the mainstream social media like 'rumble'. These sites you can see criticism of some of the silly things Biden said such as 'If you don't vote for me, then you ain't black.' A danger to America could be if a Technocracy or 'BigTech' ever only want one single voice to speak and silence all others
Here is a clip from Rumble

Biden Blames Trump On Why The Debt Limit Needs To Be Raised
https://rumble.com/vneiz1-biden-blames- … aised.html
The United States Pays Its Bills Per Biden
"The United States pays its bills … Raising the debt limit is paying our old debts. This has nothing to do with new spending ... It has nothing to do with my plans on infrastructure or building back better, both of which are paid for, but they’re not even in the queue"
https://rumble.com/vnf3l9-the-united-st … biden.html

political commentary from StevenCrowder

Biden's Ice-Cream-Brain Doesn't Understand DEBT - Louder With Crowder
https://www.bitchute.com/video/wwAsAv17xIo/

Is the magic coin a bad idea?

https://twitter.com/JHWeissmann/status/ … 4466998274
https://www.cato.org/blog/darn-coin
https://nymag.com/intelligencer/2021/09 … ained.html
https://www.barrons.com/articles/debt-c … 1633038991

Becuse the Fed is a Private Bank owned by Foreign Royal old money powers there is a loophole in U.S. law that allows the Treasury Department to mint platinum coins at any denomination it likes.

Last edited by Mars_B4_Moon (2021-10-08 05:06:17)

kbd512 · 2021-10-07 20:07:25

Mars_B4_Moon,

What's so wrong with the magic coin idea?

If they're going to suspend the laws of economics in favor of unlimited spending, then I say they mint at least 100 of those new trillion dollar coins, and then we can re-power the world with their solar panels and wind turbines, at least until we run out of fossil fuels to make them.

All fiat currencies eventually nosedive into oblivion, but since we convinced 80+ million people that an old man with Dementia was fit to lead America, then maybe we can convince everyone else that America can simply print our way out of debt, right?

That plan was working for Bernie Madoff, at least until the Feds arrested him and all his investors / suckers lost their life savings.

It's not a crime when the Federal Reserve sets up the Ponzi scheme, right?

SpaceNut · 2021-11-08 22:15:38

What’s in the infrastructure bill

Here’s a breakdown of the bill:
ROADS AND BRIDGES
The bill would provide $110 billion to repair the nation’s aging highways, bridges and roads. According to the White House, 173,000 total miles or nearly 280,000 kilometers of America’s highways and major roads and 45,000 bridges are in poor condition. And the almost $40 billion for bridges is the single largest dedicated bridge investment since the construction of the national highway system, according to the Biden administration.
PUBLIC TRANSIT
The $39 billion for public transit in the legislation would expand transportation systems, improve accessibility for people with disabilities and provide dollars to state and local governments to buy zero-emission and low-emission buses. The Transportation Department estimates that the current repair backlog is more than 24,000 buses, 5,000 rail cars, 200 stations and thousands of miles of track and power systems.
PASSENGER AND FREIGHT RAIL
To reduce Amtrak’s maintenance backlog, which has worsened since Superstorm Sandy nine years ago, the bill would provide $66 billion to improve the rail service’s Northeast Corridor (457 miles, 735 km), as well as other routes. It’s less than the $80 billion Biden — who famously rode Amtrak from Delaware to Washington during his time in the Senate — originally asked for, but it would be the largest federal investment in passenger rail service since Amtrak was founded 50 years ago.
ELECTRIC VEHICLES
The bill would spend $7.5 billion for electric vehicle charging stations, which the administration says are critical to accelerating the use of electric vehicles to curb climate change. It would also provide $5 billion for the purchase of electric school buses and hybrids, reducing reliance on school buses that run on diesel fuel.
INTERNET ACCESS
The legislation’s $65 billion for broadband access would aim to improve internet services for rural areas, low-income families and tribal communities. Most of the money would be made available through grants to states.
MODERNIZING THE ELECTRIC GRID
To protect against the power outages that have become more frequent in recent years, the bill would spend $65 billion to improve the reliability and resiliency of the power grid. It would also boost carbon capture technologies and more environmentally friendly electricity sources like clean hydrogen.
AIRPORTS
The bill would spend $25 billion to improve runways, gates and taxiways at airports and to improve terminals. It would also improve aging air traffic control towers.
WATER AND WASTEWATER
The legislation would spend $55 billion on water and wastewater infrastructure. It has $15 billion to replace lead pipes and $10 billion to address water contamination from polyfluoroalkyl substances — chemicals that were used in the production of Teflon and have also been used in firefighting foam, water-repellent clothing and many other items.
PAYING FOR IT
The five-year spending package would be paid for by tapping $210 billion in unspent COVID-19 relief aid and $53 billion in unemployment insurance aid some states have halted, along with an array of smaller pots of money, like petroleum reserve sales and spectrum auctions for 5G services.

Mars_B4_Moon · 2021-11-26 15:51:54

more inflation coming?

https://newstarget.com/2021-11-24-econo … rries.html

louis · 2021-11-26 19:09:40

Trump knew the importance of renewing the USA's infrastructure but the Democrats did their level best to prevent him getting any legislation through Congress to do anything about it.

Trump's economic policies made a lot of sense. He was prepared to confront Cheating China - a nation that benefits from the rules of world trade but refuses to itself abide by those rules.

The Nixon China policy was probably the worst strategic mistake since maybe France and Britain's failure to stop the remilitarisation of the Rhineland in 1936.

louis · 2021-11-26 19:14:55

"All fiat currencies eventually nosedive into oblivion". No real evidence for that. The dollar and sterling give the lie to that. Currencies more often than not fail because of war or politicians trying to get a free lunch.

All that's required to keep a currency going whether it's seashells, gold coins, fiat paper money or a digital currency is confidence.

Senile Biden is testing the public's confidence in the dollar with his policies, his personal conduct and his personal decline.

kbd512 wrote:

Mars_B4_Moon,
What's so wrong with the magic coin idea?
If they're going to suspend the laws of economics in favor of unlimited spending, then I say they mint at least 100 of those new trillion dollar coins, and then we can re-power the world with their solar panels and wind turbines, at least until we run out of fossil fuels to make them.
All fiat currencies eventually nosedive into oblivion, but since we convinced 80+ million people that an old man with Dementia was fit to lead America, then maybe we can convince everyone else that America can simply print our way out of debt, right?
That plan was working for Bernie Madoff, at least until the Feds arrested him and all his investors / suckers lost their life savings.
It's not a crime when the Federal Reserve sets up the Ponzi scheme, right?

Mars_B4_Moon · 2021-11-26 19:25:40

I'm not American but I guess I follow some US politics because if the US economy stumbles then most of the Western world will see its economic power fall and I understand the internal Nixon scandals but also think Nixon gets a lot of flak, sometimes he was wrong, he did have flaws, gutted space and ended Apollo, he is heavily criticized, however China Taiwan policy was part of a fallout from Chinese Nationalists vs Chinese Communists a power play that continued post WW2 up until 1949., the old school Taiwan Nationalists used to view the Communists as hijackers that stole their China unhappy when they lost the Civil War but Nationalists from the same group and heritage and language peoples flee to Taiwan, Nixon was clever enough to spilt the Russians and Chinese, this Sino-Soviet split politics would continue for many years while other admin perhaps made mistakes and have seen the Russians and Chinese grow closer. Nixon probably supported the 'One-China' policy not because he knew the entire history of wars in Asia but because it allowed him to eventually play China and Russia against each other.

The Daily Express has a news article ... maybe take with a pinch of salt

'Biden hits back! US shows off deadly technology as tensions soar with Russia and China'
https://www.express.co.uk/news/science/ … space-news

and now maybe some think Opec or something will help the Oil Gasoline Market?

Last edited by Mars_B4_Moon (2021-11-26 19:27:41)

louis · 2021-11-26 19:39:45

It wasn't "clever" to "split" the USSR and China.

1. They were already split, very bitterly. It was principally an ideological split (the Soviet Union's abandonment of Stalinism, Mao being an ideological fan of Stalin) but one that quickly developed nationalistic overtones.

2. By normalising China we allowed a huge Trojan Horse into our world economy. The consequences of that are being seen now as China outplays us all over the globe. They have a President in their pay in the White House. They managed to dislodge NZ from the "Five Eyes".
They continue to steal IP at will. They have state policies in place to dominate all economic sectors.

As I said, it was one of the worst strategic decisions taken by anyone over the last 100 years.

Had we waited, pursuing the tried and tested policy of containment, China might well have democratised as did South Korea and as did Taiwan. There was certainly a thirst for democracy and legal rights, as we saw in Tianamen Square.

Mars_B4_Moon wrote:

I'm not American but I guess I follow some US politics because if the US economy stumbles then most of the Western world will see its economic power fall and I understand the internal Nixon scandals but also think Nixon gets a lot of flak, sometimes he was wrong, he did have flaws, gutted space and ended Apollo, he is heavily criticized, however China Taiwan policy was part of a fallout from Chinese Nationalists vs Chinese Communists a power play that continued post WW2 up until 1949., the old school Taiwan Nationalists used to view the Communists as hijackers that stole their China unhappy when they lost the Civil War but Nationalists from the same group and heritage and language peoples flee to Taiwan, Nixon was clever enough to spilt the Russians and Chinese, this Sino-Soviet split politics would continue for many years while other admin perhaps made mistakes and have seen the Russians and Chinese grow closer. Nixon probably supported the 'One-China' policy not because he knew the entire history of wars in Asia but because it allowed him to eventually play China and Russia against each other.
The Daily Express has a news article ... maybe take with a pinch of salt
'Biden hits back! US shows off deadly technology as tensions soar with Russia and China'
https://www.express.co.uk/news/science/ … space-news
and now maybe some think Opec or something will help the Oil Gasoline Market?

Mars_B4_Moon · 2021-12-15 06:05:58

Bkac in the 80s and 90s everyone thought the Japanese were going to buy up the world, other players like S.Korea started to come onto the stage and nobody took China serious now matter how much they were warned.

kbd512 wrote:

All fiat currencies eventually nosedive into oblivion

You want a return to a Gold Standard?

anyways here's some news

House Clears $2.5 Trillion Debt Ceiling Boost, Sends to Biden
https://ca.finance.yahoo.com/news/senat … 56815.html

Biden's Stimulus Bill Subsidized Meat Producers. Now, the White House Blames 'Corporate Greed' for High Meat Prices.
https://reason.com/2021/12/14/bidens-st … at-prices/

We don’t have to guess what Biden’s stimulus plan would look like – it’s right here
https://bgr.com/politics/new-stimulus-b … lief-plan/

Forsyth won't be spending coronavirus relief money on affordable housing
https://journalnow.com/news/local/forsy … 072a5.html

County mulls dozens of requests for $29M in COVID-relief grants
https://www.monroenews.com/story/news/c … 657196002/

US debt ceiling: Congress sends Biden $2.5T increase, avoiding default
https://www.fox10phoenix.com/news/senat … ds-default

SpaceNut · 2021-12-21 15:00:47

The president's "Build Back Better" bill, coal-state Democratic Sen. Joe Manchin III of West Virginia, who have blocked Build Back Better.

The two solar plants could eventually cover 2,700 acres in Riverside County, an hour's drive east of Palm Springs and just south of Joshua Tree National Park. Federal officials say they would generate enough electricity to power some 132,000 California homes.
That energy would help keep the lights on after dark, with the developer also building a bank of lithium-ion batteries.
A third solar farm in the same area, which the Biden administration said it expects to approve soon, would bring total clean power generation at the new facilities to nearly 1,000 megawatts of solar and 900 megawatts of four-hour battery storage.
Across the American West, conservation groups and tribes have grown increasingly concerned about the potential for solar, wind and geothermal power plants to destroy sensitive wildlife habitat and disrupt sacred landscapes. Federal officials are grappling with those concerns as they try to meet a congressional target of permitting 25,000 megawatts of renewable energy on public lands by 2025, while also protecting 30% of the nation's lands and ocean waters by 2030 as part of Biden's "30 by 30" initiative.
The two solar farms are being developed by San Francisco-based Clearway Energy Group, which plans to start construction on the first phase of each facility next year. The company has contracts in place to sell electricity to four government-run energy providers — including Clean Power Alliance in Los Angeles and Ventura counties — as well as PepsiCo.
The projects could eventually include 465 megawatts of solar power and 400 megawatts of battery storage, and will "provide clean, reliable, affordable power when California needs it most," Clearway executive Julia Zuckerman said in an email.
On Monday, the bureau announced it is seeking developers interested in building solar across nearly 90,000 acres in Colorado, Nevada and New Mexico. A few weeks earlier, the agency said it would lower the fees paid by solar and wind developers.
There's also a big backlog of projects waiting to be reviewed. The bureau says it is processing applications for 54 solar projects, four wind projects and four geothermal projects across the nearly 250 million acres of public lands that it manages — about one-tenth of the country's surface area, nearly all of it in the West. Preliminary review is underway for another 64 applications.

I doubt the 4 sites in my town that were in progress before Trump took office will ever get completed.

SpaceNut · 2021-12-22 15:28:04

Another part of that not in my back yard after mining is Solar arrays... Colorado, Nevada, New Mexico Tapped for Development of Solar Energy as Part of Biden of which if you looked at where the best places for solar is it would be in this corner of the US for sure.

The 465 megawatts of electricity, enough to power an estimated 132,000 homes means we are using 3,523 w which is quite a lot when I am using less than 1,000 other than during winter months at this point.

Calliban · 2021-12-22 15:38:01

SpaceNut wrote:

Another part of that not in my back yard after mining is Solar arrays... Colorado, Nevada, New Mexico Tapped for Development of Solar Energy as Part of Biden of which if you looked at where the best places for solar is it would be in this corner of the US for sure.
The 465 megawatts of electricity, enough to power an estimated 132,000 homes means we are using 3,523 w which is quite a lot when I am using less than 1,000 other than during winter months at this point.

Space Nut, 465MW is nameplate capacity. It is what the plant will produce at dead noon, at the equator on a cloudless day, when insolation is 1000W/m2. It is not an indication of what the plant will actually produce, at any particular time. In real life locations, that 465MW power plant, will produce an average of 50-100MW over a whole year. Divide total annual energy output by total energy consumption of US homes and you get a number of equivalent homes.

Of course, it isn't quite as simple as that. People want power at night, when this thing is producing exactly none. And they want more power than average in winter, when the solar plant is generating very little.

kbd512 · 2021-12-22 16:18:59

Mars_B4_Moon,

There's not enough Silver / Gold / Platinum in the world. However, other commodities are also stores of real tangible value. Timber / Iron / Aluminum / Copper / Lead / Lithium / Uranium / Thorium are valuable, as is drinking water / foodstuffs / fibers for textiles / oil / gas / medical treatment or technology / computers, basically the stuff humans require within the context of a technologically advanced civilization with a higher quality of life than what our ancestors enjoyed. I'd rather be exactly who I am today, rather than the richest king from antiquity, for exactly that reason.

Louis,

The US Dollar and Pound Sterling are only stores of value because people hold religious beliefs in its value. Since nearly everyone participates in the delusion / religion, including myself, it works. The moment faith is lost, it no longer works. I choose to participate because the alternatives are less palatable. However, you can't eat paper, nor the zeros and ones stored in a computer. They're coupons or mere representations of coupons that can be redeemed in a store for things of tangible value. The same applies to cryptocurrencies. You can't eat it, so it's only "worth" manifests itself when you redeem it in a store because someone else is willing to exchange it for a tangible good or service. Between suitcases filled with Benjamins and a lifetime's supply of food / water / shelter / clothing / medical care, I can tell you which one I'd rather have, and it's not the paper.

SpaceNut · 2021-12-22 17:22:49

Means the name late is a lie...as no one wants power for only the high noon hour only...
More lies being lump summed in the article.

https://eplanning.blm.gov/public_projec … ssment.pdf

Arica Solar Project, a 265 megawatt (MW) solar photovoltaic (PV) project (CACA 56898), would include up to 200 MW of battery
storage and the Victory Pass Solar Project, a 200 MW solar PV project (CACA 56477). would include up to 200 MW of battery storage

more lies first batteries are are not W rated but are Amp hr

kbd512 · 2021-12-22 17:23:45

Calliban,

Yes, nameplate capacity of a solar or wind farm is a meaningless figure, because it is never representative of the power plant's real output. I could have a TeraWatt nameplate capacity solar farm, and that still means precisely nothing if the solar panels are coated in dust or the planet I'm standing on has rotated to the point where sunlight no longer strikes the panels. For solar, plant output is always zero at night and never a constant value during the day. For wind, there are two peaks (morning and evening) followed by deep valleys, which represent the differential heating of the surface of the Earth (what produces "wind") as the Earth rotates.

There are five figures of merit for solar and wind farms, the first being total power output over a given duration (day / week / year), the second being time-averaged power output (average power per day / season of the year / year), the third being how costly the wild power output fluctuations are to smooth out into usable grid power input, the fourth being the total cost of a complete solution that supplies adequate power at all times when it's demanded, and the fifth being the ultimate sustainability of the solution (if it takes more energy input than you receive total output, then it's not sustainable without another source of input energy).

The solar farm not far from here gives up 20% to 23% of its power output to internal electrical resistance before the power ever touches the wires that feed into the power grid, so beyond the silly "nameplate capacity" figure, produced but not delivered / not ever consumable power is ignored. However, Texas is very rich in sunlight, even during the winter months, so we can still "get our money back" in terms of total power output versus total power input. That would never be the case for a Province in Canada. West Texas is also very rich in wind. The problem is that the wind doesn't blow steadily and the sunlight is absent for approximately half of each day, which means something has to produce power whenever the sun don't shine and the wind don't blow. That "something" is burning natural gas in a gas turbine.

As of right now, there is no actual power storage solution for storing GigaWatt-hours of power, which is what Texas would need for wind and solar to actually cover our needs. Our local environmentalists make a big deal over producing enough to cover 100% of the power used by the City of Houston, while totally ignoring the fact that total Watt-hours generated by wind and solar do not translate into total Watt-hours consumed. Every day and every night, the gas powered turbines are spinning, consuming fuel to contend with the wild variability in power output from our wind and solar.

Basically, it's a con job perpetrated by people who know that the people they're running their con on, for the most part, are neither intelligent nor educated enough to separate propaganda / deception from reality. If what they claim was true, then we should be able to shut down that gas turbine at some point in time, but we never do, because we can't, because the moment the power output from the wind and solar farms plummet to near-zero or actual zero, something else has to be generating power to carry the load, or the grid crashes and may not come back online for days or weeks in some cases. That is why objective reality, when you walk past the generating stations near city center, is that you can hear those turbines spinning 24/7/365. If those turbines ceased to exist, then so would our operational power grid.

The grid batteries exist because the power fluctuations are so large that the gas turbines alone can't handle them. Prior to wind and solar, they were not needed, because there were no GigaWatt-scale power fluctuations. The alternative is that you spin the turbine up fast enough to cover any expected drops, and then dump the power into the ground, which is what solar does at high noon when production greatly exceeds demand. In our home solar setup, we charge the backup batteries or we send the power back to the grid, because otherwise the power has to get dumped into the ground. All this additional required equipment that wind and solar mandate is, as you can imagine, very costly to purchase and operate. We have the equivalent investment, in terms of money, of a brand new Cadillac Escalade sitting on our roof. A lot of people can't afford that.

Does solar work at home / personal scale?

Well, yeah, but it really depends on how you define "working". At a personal scale, it means our power bill is always $367 per month, rather than $250 to $1,500 per month. That specific "feature" is what my wife and I define as "working", because we intend to live in this house at least until we retire, which is another 25 years away. However, there are still numerous times when we have to draw power from the grid to meet demand from our AC units. Powering a 6,500ft^2 house located in Texas requires a lot of energy.

Does wind and solar work at a grid level?

If "working" means not spinning gas turbines 24/7/365, then no, it doesn't work at all. Those turbines can never be turned off. So, in addition to paying for the turbines and their fuel, we're now paying for vast numbers of wind turbines and solar panels and additional grid infrastructure (power transformers and wiring and maintenance technicians to keep them running) and the fuel for the gas turbines. If we actually had grid storage of any kind (besides fuel for gas turbines- meaning molten salt or molten metal or a battery with the capability to output power over weeks), then the value add from wind and solar instantly flips on its head and you no longer have any argument from me. As of right now, we're merely satisfying the personal desires of people with no basic math skills and no reality-based concept of how their own electric grid actually functions. They're religious fanatics, based upon their behavior. If they want to convert me into a "true believer", then at some point during some day of the year, we should be able to shut down the gas turbines. That has never happened for as long as I've lived here. All we're left with is their malarkey about "saving the planet", as if a giant inanimate space rock needed to be "rescued from humanity".

Edit:
The comment about fanaticism and religion is based upon the inability to accept or even acknowledge when something doesn't work out the way these people want it to. My "dog in the fight" is my wallet, and unfortunately my wallet doesn't automatically refill itself whenever someone makes a math error. As more and more "cheap" wind and solar is continually added to the grid, the cost of electricity keeps going up. If the claims of falling costs meant anything in the context of money paid for electricity, then at some point the rates would have to level off, except that's not what we see happening. A pragmatic person would simply admit to reality and examine the underlying causes, but a religious fanatic never would. My comments about basic math skills are also related to the same.

This is no different than the cost of the fighter jets purchased by Uncle Sam. Those jets keep getting more expensive while my salary never seems to keep pace with inflation and taxes. Eventually, something has to give. Our government spends substantially more money, every single year, than it takes in, in the form of tax revenues. They could take every cent that people like Elon Musk make, and it would never pay for a single fiscal year's worth of government spending. The total debt per citizen is now more than the average yearly salary, which means there's increasingly less ability to pay for what these people want paid for. That tells me that there's a spending and ideology problem, not a technology problem.

Power is power, at least to me. All of my personal preferences are based upon what the solutions to the math problems tell me. If something doesn't work the way I want it to, then it doesn't matter in the slightest if that's what I personally wanted, because it simply doesn't work. It's a "you can't get there from here" situation, in my opinion- and no, I will not "take it on faith" that eventually we'll get there. I require demonstrated results, and can only hope that others do as well.

Last edited by kbd512 (2021-12-22 19:10:58)

SpaceNut · 2021-12-22 17:58:08

That is where the panels convertor and voltage is the issue for power creation and how we are tying them together

https://www.analog.com/en/technical-art … utput.html
Solar panel I-V curve showing maximum power

https://www.alternative-energy-tutorial … panel.html

https://news.energysage.com/what-is-the … lar-panel/

https://www.youngalfred.com/homeowners- … el-produce

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solar_cell_efficiency

https://www.sunrun.com/go-solar-center/ … f-generate

The average energy needs of a U.S. household is a 6.62-kW solar system to match the 9,000 kWh of average energy usage by U.S. households each year. And, the typical solar panel makes 320 watts of electricity in ideal sunny conditions. Here's how many solar panels that equals.
Divide 6.62 kW (the system size) by .320 kW (the wattage per panel) = 20.69—rounded up that’s 21 panels. While your home is far from average, this is how you can calculate your own rough estimate

Its this calculation that goes wrong as its the perfect alignment and no clouds

This is the second calculation error that occurs
In general, with irradiance of 4 peak-sun-hours per day, a 100 watt solar panel can produce about 400 watt-hours (Wh) of energy per day. MPPT charge controllers should be used to maintain the output at the panel’s Maximum Power Voltage of 17.5 volts and Maximum Power Current of 5.75 amps.

Calliban · 2021-12-22 19:35:07

kbd512 wrote:

Calliban,
Yes, nameplate capacity of a solar or wind farm is a meaningless figure, because it is never representative of the power plant's real output. I could have a TeraWatt nameplate capacity solar farm, and that still means precisely nothing if the solar panels are coated in dust or the planet I'm standing on has rotated to the point where sunlight no longer strikes the panels. For solar, plant output is always zero at night and never a constant value during the day. For wind, there are two peaks (morning and evening) followed by deep valleys, which represent the differential heating of the surface of the Earth (what produces "wind") as the Earth rotates.
There are five figures of merit for solar and wind farms, the first being total power output over a given duration (day / week / year), the second being time-averaged power output (average power per day / season of the year / year), the third being how costly the wild power output fluctuations are to smooth out into usable grid power input, the fourth being the total cost of a complete solution that supplies adequate power at all times when it's demanded, and the fifth being the ultimate sustainability of the solution (if it takes more energy input than you receive total output, then it's not sustainable without another source of input energy).
The solar farm not far from here gives up 20% to 23% of its power output to internal electrical resistance before the power ever touches the wires that feed into the power grid, so beyond the silly "nameplate capacity" figure, produced but not delivered / not ever consumable power is ignored. However, Texas is very rich in sunlight, even during the winter months, so we can still "get our money back" in terms of total power output versus total power input. That would never be the case for a Province in Canada. West Texas is also very rich in wind. The problem is that the wind doesn't blow steadily and the sunlight is absent for approximately half of each day, which means something has to produce power whenever the sun don't shine and the wind don't blow. That "something" is burning natural gas in a gas turbine.
As of right now, there is no actual power storage solution for storing GigaWatt-hours of power, which is what Texas would need for wind and solar to actually cover our needs. Our local environmentalists make a big deal over producing enough to cover 100% of the power used by the City of Houston, while totally ignoring the fact that total Watt-hours generated by wind and solar do not translate into total Watt-hours consumed. Every day and every night, the gas powered turbines are spinning, consuming fuel to contend with the wild variability in power output from our wind and solar.
Basically, it's a con job perpetrated by people who know that the people they're running their con on, for the most part, are neither intelligent nor educated enough to separate propaganda / deception from reality. If what they claim was true, then we should be able to shut down that gas turbine at some point in time, but we never do, because we can't, because the moment the power output from the wind and solar farms plummet to near-zero or actual zero, something else has to be generating power to carry the load, or the grid crashes and may not come back online for days or weeks in some cases. That is why objective reality, when you walk past the generating stations near city center, is that you can hear those turbines spinning 24/7/365. If those turbines ceased to exist, then so would our operational power grid.
The grid batteries exist because the power fluctuations are so large that the gas turbines alone can't handle them. Prior to wind and solar, they were not needed, because there were no GigaWatt-scale power fluctuations. The alternative is that you spin the turbine up fast enough to cover any expected drops, and then dump the power into the ground, which is what solar does at high noon when production greatly exceeds demand. In our home solar setup, we charge the backup batteries or we send the power back to the grid, because otherwise the power has to get dumped into the ground. All this additional required equipment that wind and solar mandate is, as you can imagine, very costly to purchase and operate. We have the equivalent investment, in terms of money, of a brand new Cadillac Escalade sitting on our roof. A lot of people can't afford that.
Does solar work at home / personal scale?
Well, yeah, but it really depends on how you define "working". At a personal scale, it means our power bill is always $367 per month, rather than $250 to $1,500 per month. That specific "feature" is what my wife and I define as "working", because we intend to live in this house at least until we retire, which is another 25 years away. However, there are still numerous times when we have to draw power from the grid to meet demand from our AC units. Powering a 6,500ft^2 house located in Texas requires a lot of energy.
Does wind and solar work at a grid level?
If "working" means not spinning gas turbines 24/7/365, then no, it doesn't work at all. Those turbines can never be turned off. So, in addition to paying for the turbines and their fuel, we're now paying for vast numbers of wind turbines and solar panels and additional grid infrastructure (power transformers and wiring and maintenance technicians to keep them running) and the fuel for the gas turbines. If we actually had grid storage of any kind (besides fuel for gas turbines- meaning molten salt or molten metal or a battery with the capability to output power over weeks), then the value add from wind and solar instantly flips on its head and you no longer have any argument from me. As of right now, we're merely satisfying the personal desires of people with no basic math skills and no reality-based concept of how their own electric grid actually functions. They're religious fanatics, based upon their behavior. If they want to convert me into a "true believer", then at some point during some day of the year, we should be able to shut down the gas turbines. That has never happened for as long as I've lived here. All we're left with is their malarkey about "saving the planet", as if a giant inanimate space rock needed to be "rescued from humanity".

Kbd512, I wasn't aware that internal resistance accounted for losses of 23%. That is indeed a huge figure. But it makes some sense, because cells discharge at low voltage (typically 0.8 volt) and high current. Cells are clustered in series to build up output voltage. That means transmitting a lot of current through very thin upper and lower conductors that run along the surface and back of the cells. These conductors are vacuum plated silver, in order to reduce resistance as much as possible. There is an economic balance to be reached between resistance losses and the number of inverter-transformer units applied.

Gas turbines themselves can run up extremely quickly, minutes if not seconds. But the waste heat boilers cannot. These are steam plants that rely on convective and conductive heat transfer of hot exhaust gases into boiler tubes. If these are heated too quickly, they may experience thermal shock. The same with the steam pipework, superheater and the turbine. I don't think the condenser is so vulnerable.

Batteries are needed because wind farms and solar plants can drop off load extremely quickly. In fact, trip of a single wind turbine can trigger voltage transients that trip all of the other turbines offload in a cascade. In the UK, large wind farms have gone from 500MW to zero in just a couple of minutes, for exactly this reason. You are correct that even gas turbines will struggle to take up load that rapidly and no CCGT can do it. Most people that advocate this sort of thing think batteries are storage. What they are ultimately there to do is maintain grid stability whilst CCGTs are brought on line.

Ultimately, if your grid depends heavily on natural gas, then wind and solar power plants will reduce annual aggregate fuel consumption. But it is not an appealing option, because those gas turbine plants must be bought, maintained and kept ready to operate, even if the grid doesn't need them. And you are correct, we have two sets of capital and maintenance costs instead of one. If a country really does have fuel security issues and really cannot build coal or nuclear power plants, then wind and solar plants are the only option left for reducing fuel consumption. But it is a weak option indeed.

Last edited by Calliban (2021-12-22 19:38:38)

SpaceNut · 2022-01-12 20:21:26

The us is going the other way now in that Coal was dying. Then 2021 happened.

SpaceNut · 2022-01-22 19:56:52

Due to the most recent voting on the filibuster and nuclear option use The Arizona Democratic Party has voted to formally censure Senator Kyrsten Sinema

'No SALT no deal': Democrats vow to block Build Back Better bill without tax break

After decades, Biden plans to make mobile homes greener. But it's sparked a fierce debate.

So what will it cost

of course we can now give help by Supplement Can Help Combat Dementia, New Study Shows

Biden take your vitamins

SpaceNut · 2022-01-23 17:28:33

I am not sure that a business opportunity is part of infrastructure repair.

The parking shortage delays deliveries and is worsening the supply-chain backlog, one trucker told officials.

Truck drivers say President Biden's $2 trillion infrastructure plan overlooks parking, a critical need for breaks and sleep

while President Biden's "Trucking Action Plan" — released last month as part of the administration's $2 trillion infrastructure bill — makes an effort to address hot-button transportation issues like supply-chain backlogs and the truck driver shortage, it does not mention parking once,
supply-chain woes can't be solved "until drivers are able to utilize their whole 11 hour drive time driving, not driving around in circles, fighting for the next parking spot,"

Mars_B4_Moon · 2022-03-07 16:34:09

The Russian economy might start crashing, the currency running down in a collapse, it also seem to be unpopular at home but Putin is banning protests inside Russia.

Why are the West and Americans sceptical, I think the division came before Biden or Trump or Obama, maybe it started with the Neocons and 'Patriot Act' a lot of healthy news and debate was lost after the Middle East invasions and scandal of Iraq and ever since the US public are sceptical no matter what. Paul Craig Roberts a conspiracy guy an economist and author who worked in the United States federal government even argued 'It is the US that is Being Invaded, not Ukraine'. There have been smaller local ongoing conflicts or smaller civil war type skirmish across Ukraine from 2014 on the status of Crimea, the politics in the Capital City, fights over elections and the status of parts of the Donbas, 2021 the crisis expands and in 2022 it becomes a full scale war with Russia invading the entire country and the Russo-Ukrainian refugee crisis with 850,000 maybe over 1 million on the move, trying to flee into another nation. Switzerland which usually remained neutral in the past has now truned against Russia's war and invasions and announced that it will freeze the economic assets of 363 individuals including Putin, Prime Minister Mikhail Mishustin, and Foreign Minister Sergey Lavrov effective immediately Australia – Prime Minister Scott Morrison said that it would "begin imposing further sanctions on oligarchs, whose economic weight is of strategic significance to Moscow and over 300 members of the Russian Duma, their parliament." Japan said that it would strengthen its sanctions against Russia to also include financial institutions and military equipment exports

There are talks of cease fire, they start killing and shooting again, they go back into negotiation, more shells and bullets and bombs suddenly start flying and another cease fire.
The war has moved from battlefield into the cities with homes burning and Apartment Skylines wrecked in ugly secnes of destruction.

Reports are coming of Russia not making advances due to resistance and street battles back and forth.

Meanwhile thousands of innocent people are dying, Old Grandfather Men, Old Women, Children then Running the gauntlet trying to reach Romania or Poland or running to Hungary or try to run to an already Poverty ridden Moldova because life there is a thousand times better than try to survive a war torn Ukraine apocalypse landscape.

Footage appears on twiiter but sometimes the videogames comapnies make these days is so good it can almost be impossibly difficult to tell the difference between a fake cgi reality and the true war. There is confusion and truth and lies and propaganda everywhere
War unfortunately might hit the world economy, Food prices, Metals, Commodity like fuel prices, are expected to rise.

Ukraine war 'catastrophic for global food'
https://www.bbc.com/news/business-60623941

Gold On Its Way To $3,000 An Ounce
https://www.forbes.com/sites/investor/2 … -an-ounce/

Food prices across globe skyrocket by 20.7%
https://nypost.com/2022/03/05/food-pric … oss-globe/

As much as the West will be hit it seems Russia will be hit harder.

Mars_B4_Moon · 2022-07-12 11:59:07

Space industry warned to prepare for impact from lurking recession

https://spacenews.com/space-industry-wa … recession/

New Mars Forums

Announcement

#1 2021-10-07 18:08:24

Biden Admin $800 Billion Bill passed in Congress Senate, Debt Ceiling?

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Re: Biden Admin $800 Billion Bill passed in Congress Senate, Debt Ceiling?

#3 2021-10-07 20:07:25

Re: Biden Admin $800 Billion Bill passed in Congress Senate, Debt Ceiling?

#4 2021-11-08 22:15:38

Re: Biden Admin $800 Billion Bill passed in Congress Senate, Debt Ceiling?

#5 2021-11-26 15:51:54

Re: Biden Admin $800 Billion Bill passed in Congress Senate, Debt Ceiling?

#6 2021-11-26 19:09:40

Re: Biden Admin $800 Billion Bill passed in Congress Senate, Debt Ceiling?

#7 2021-11-26 19:14:55

Re: Biden Admin $800 Billion Bill passed in Congress Senate, Debt Ceiling?

#8 2021-11-26 19:25:40

Re: Biden Admin $800 Billion Bill passed in Congress Senate, Debt Ceiling?

#9 2021-11-26 19:39:45

Re: Biden Admin $800 Billion Bill passed in Congress Senate, Debt Ceiling?

#10 2021-12-15 06:05:58

Re: Biden Admin $800 Billion Bill passed in Congress Senate, Debt Ceiling?

#11 2021-12-21 15:00:47

Re: Biden Admin $800 Billion Bill passed in Congress Senate, Debt Ceiling?

#12 2021-12-22 15:28:04

Re: Biden Admin $800 Billion Bill passed in Congress Senate, Debt Ceiling?

#13 2021-12-22 15:38:01

Re: Biden Admin $800 Billion Bill passed in Congress Senate, Debt Ceiling?

#14 2021-12-22 16:18:59

Re: Biden Admin $800 Billion Bill passed in Congress Senate, Debt Ceiling?

#15 2021-12-22 17:22:49

Re: Biden Admin $800 Billion Bill passed in Congress Senate, Debt Ceiling?

#16 2021-12-22 17:23:45

Re: Biden Admin $800 Billion Bill passed in Congress Senate, Debt Ceiling?

#17 2021-12-22 17:58:08

Re: Biden Admin $800 Billion Bill passed in Congress Senate, Debt Ceiling?

#18 2021-12-22 19:35:07

Re: Biden Admin $800 Billion Bill passed in Congress Senate, Debt Ceiling?

#19 2022-01-12 20:21:26

Re: Biden Admin $800 Billion Bill passed in Congress Senate, Debt Ceiling?

#20 2022-01-22 19:56:52

Re: Biden Admin $800 Billion Bill passed in Congress Senate, Debt Ceiling?

#21 2022-01-23 17:28:33

Re: Biden Admin $800 Billion Bill passed in Congress Senate, Debt Ceiling?

#22 2022-03-07 16:34:09

Re: Biden Admin $800 Billion Bill passed in Congress Senate, Debt Ceiling?

#23 2022-07-12 11:59:07

Re: Biden Admin $800 Billion Bill passed in Congress Senate, Debt Ceiling?

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