CDC director warns of a ‘pandemic of the unvaccinated.’

kbd512 · 2021-12-18 12:52:32

Mars_B4_Moon,

The reason we have more deaths is that the Biden administration is fixated on prevention rather than treatment of the disease. When prevention fails, you need to have well-developed treatment options. That makes every bit as much sense as Louis' fixation on treatment, rather than prevention. My take on it is that we do "all of the above". There has to be more than one option available when catastrophe strikes.

SpaceNut · 2021-12-18 14:07:45

Some are making it through with what we have learned on how to care for those that get infected and partly due to so many which have gotten the vaccines even if its not something which should have ever needed boosters in a 6 - 12 month time frame.

The latest variant while its generating a large number of infection its so far not been identified with deaths like the others have been. It has been said that those that have gotten the vaccines and still got infected have developed super anti bodies but who knows as the media has been lying to us and biasing the statements in political direction.

My parents both have had the Pizter vaccine and got covid only to have both come though it with out dying.

Don’t Be Surprised When You Get Omicron; America is in for a lot more breakthrough infections. Here’s what to do if you fall sick.

My breakthrough infection started with a scratchy throat just a few days before Thanksgiving. Because I’m vaccinated, and had just tested negative for COVID-19 two days earlier, I initially brushed off the symptoms as merely a cold.
One by one, the symptoms I knew so well on paper made their real-life debut: cough, fever, fatigue, and a loss of smell so severe, I couldn’t detect my dog’s habitually fishy breath. “Once you know you’re infected, hang tight, limit your encounters with other people, and just take care of yourself.” If only the official guidance were this straightforward.

Some only see cold and not flu symptoms with no fever

The CDC advises that after confirming your infection, you should start isolating right away, but unless you are asymptomatic, the first day of symptoms is technically what counts as the start of your 10 days of isolation. I learned the hard way that you aren’t supposed to “test out” of isolation, when a physician assistant yelled at me for getting tested after feeling better on day seven. She said I was putting others at risk, although the CDC guidance didn’t specifically say not to get tested.

So the question is for those that catch the virus are you infectious and for how long if you have had the vaccines to others? Is it a different time in days if you have not gotten them? There has been a huge amount of finger pointing in both directions as to whom is causing what.

not all public-health experts agree that those with breakthrough infections really need to isolate for 10 days, given recent research suggesting that they clear the virus more quickly than the unvaccinated, for whom the 10-day window was designed. Wurtz said that the 10-day isolation period is “somewhat arbitrary,”

louis · 2021-12-18 20:26:09

https://dailyexpose.uk/2021/12/09/distr … accinated/

I don't think your position is tenable Kbd. The figures above from Scotland (Sept to mid Dec) show 60% of Covid cases, 71% of Covid hospitalisations and 90% of Covid deaths are vaccinated. What you're claiming is wrong. The vaccinated are the people who are a threat to good health outcomes.

These sort of results are being replayed across the planet.

Please note: the above figures relate only to Covid. They are not all-cause mortality figures. If we look at all cause mortality the picture for vaccination is only going to look much, much worse.

BTW - statistical note: the globalist propagandists are trying to confuse people by using bed occupancy in a way that implies number of people. So you may well hear "80% of ICU beds with Covid patients are occupied by unvaccinated people". That is not the same as "80% of people who have been in ICU over the last x months have been unvaccinated people". Unvaccinated people have better immune systems generally and so don't die as quickly or spend a substantial amount of time in ICU before they recover.

kbd512 wrote:

Mars_B4_Moon,
The reason we have more deaths is that the Biden administration is fixated on prevention rather than treatment of the disease. When prevention fails, you need to have well-developed treatment options. That makes every bit as much sense as Louis' fixation on treatment, rather than prevention. My take on it is that we do "all of the above". There has to be more than one option available when catastrophe strikes.

SpaceNut · 2021-12-18 21:10:03

we are seeing exactly the opposite Louis
https://ourworldindata.org/covid-deaths-by-vaccination
https://covid.cdc.gov/covid-data-tracke … ine-status
https://www.doh.wa.gov/Portals/1/Docume … inated.pdf

In September (the most up-to-date data available), for example, the CDC found unvaccinated people were nearly six times more likely to test positive for Covid-19 and 14 times more likely to die from it compared to fully vaccinated people.

https://www.health.state.mn.us/diseases … s/vbt.html

Something that I would hope would not happen is Pro-Trump counties now have far higher COVID death rates. Misinformation is to blame

kbd512 · 2021-12-18 21:54:04

Louis,

I tried to access the link you provided, but it didn't work for me. Please try to fix it if you can.

Your assertions are gross oversimplifications that are not supported by death counts from people who did versus did not have COVID vaccines. The age group who have both the highest percentage of COVID hospitalizations / deaths and immunization rates were / are the most elderly. The vaccines never were, are not now, and never shall be a silver bullet or magic talisman against dying from COVID, in much the same way that Ivermectin and monoclonal antibodies and natural immunity are not silver bullets. There is no such thing as a silver bullet in medicine, which you would both know and accept if this wasn't ideological in nature for you. It seems as if both sides of this issue are firmly wedded to their ideologies, till death do they part.

If 100% of people are vaccinated against COVID, then 100% of the people who still die from COVID will be vaccinated. Once again, vaccines are not silver bullets, irrespective of what ill-informed / ideologically disabled politicians or media personalities claim. The only difference is the number of people who died with versus without a vaccine. The people who don't have the vaccine die at a much higher rate when compared to people who are vaccinated.

Nuffield Trust UK - Cases, hospitalisations and deaths across the four nations

Look at the cases in 2020 and 2021, then look at the number of deaths.

Do you notice the steep reduction in hospitalizations and death rates, despite increasing case rates, now that most of the elderly and even many of the younger people are vaccinated?

It's not dumb luck, nor is it coincidence. Vaccines work. Treatments also work. We don't approve vaccines or therapeutic drugs based upon random positive outcome. The people who make money off of vaccines also make money off of therapeutic drugs. Either way, you're purchasing products from the same companies. I can tell you that the vaccines are far less costly than a stay in ICU. The therapeutics can also be less expensive than an ICU stay, but for some reason people have a hard time admitting to themselves when they're severely ill and need medical treatment. The hospitals and pharmaceuticals make money whether you use vaccines or drugs. Either way, they're getting paid.

Pfizer charges Uncle Sam, ultimately the American tax payer, $24 per dose of their mRNA product. You can purchase Ivermectin for $29.72 with insurance or $101.95 without insurance. The monoclonal antibodies are $2,100 per dose. All three products work quite well, but some are clearly cheaper than others. You can pay as much as you want to for your ideology. It makes no difference to me. I paid my 48 greenbacks for each family member, because money doesn't grow on trees. YMMV. Best of luck, no matter which option you choose. It's funny how hard-up you are for new technology, except when it comes to medical technology, although I guess everyone has their quirks.

SpaceNut · 2021-12-19 19:16:34

http://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMc2115674

A recent study in the New England Journal of Medicine showed that nursing home patients are far more likely to die of COVID if there are many unvaccinated staff. Among residents in low-vaccination facilities, death rates were nearly three times those of facilities with the highest levels of staff vaccination. The study concluded that, during the two-month period studied, "if all the nursing homes in our sample had been in the highest quartile of staff vaccination coverage (82.7% on average), 4775 cases among residents (29% of the total during the study window), 7501 cases among staff (29% of the total), and 703 Covid-19-related deaths among residents (48% of the total) could possibly have been prevented."

https://www.nytimes.com/2021/10/20/heal … ndate.html

Calliban · 2021-12-20 04:55:05

This issue has become politically polarised, like so much else in life these days. People end up making their decision based on emotional prejudice and then stubbornly ignoring all evidence that does not validate their point of view. People on the left are drawn to solutions that favour top down socialist controls. They are not interested in individual choice in this or anything else. They are obsessed with control, because control makes them feel secure. People on the right prefer dogged individualism and naturally distrust authority. The more they are told to do something, the more they will resist. These people are stubbornly opposed to anything that coerces them in any way. Neither side is really objective in its assessment of the facts. The political elites, media and scientific community, all do the same thing. No one is interested in presenting a balanced point of view. This ends up eroding trust. It also makes it difficult for any individual to make sense of what he is seeing.

Last edited by Calliban (2021-12-20 05:02:13)

louis · 2021-12-20 08:22:46

https://dailyexpose.uk/2021/12/09/distr … accinated/

Works for me - maybe it's one of those international barrier things.

"The vaccines never were, are not now, and never shall be a silver bullet or magic talisman against dying from COVID" That is exactly how they were sold by Fauci, Biden and - to be fair - Trump as well. Ivermectin is a kind of silver bullet - you can see how deaths just plummet when it starts being used e.g. in Uttar Pradesh or Japan. Here's Lying Biden telling everyone if you get the vaccine you won't get ill, you won't be hospitalised and you won't end up in an ICU. A total triple whammy lie.

Yes, I can compare 2020 and 2021. In 2020 the pathogen behaved like a normal coronavirus and went AWOL in July and August. In 2021, after the mass vaccination programme got under way, the virus stops behaving like a normal coronavirus and lets rip in July and August. That phenomenon is really only explained by vaccination weakening immune systems and causing Covid to continue to spread even in summer months. It put the whole population at risk.

kbd512 wrote:

Louis,
I tried to access the link you provided, but it didn't work for me. Please try to fix it if you can.
Your assertions are gross oversimplifications that are not supported by death counts from people who did versus did not have COVID vaccines. The age group who have both the highest percentage of COVID hospitalizations / deaths and immunization rates were / are the most elderly. The vaccines never were, are not now, and never shall be a silver bullet or magic talisman against dying from COVID, in much the same way that Ivermectin and monoclonal antibodies and natural immunity are not silver bullets. There is no such thing as a silver bullet in medicine, which you would both know and accept if this wasn't ideological in nature for you. It seems as if both sides of this issue are firmly wedded to their ideologies, till death do they part.
If 100% of people are vaccinated against COVID, then 100% of the people who still die from COVID will be vaccinated. Once again, vaccines are not silver bullets, irrespective of what ill-informed / ideologically disabled politicians or media personalities claim. The only difference is the number of people who died with versus without a vaccine. The people who don't have the vaccine die at a much higher rate when compared to people who are vaccinated.
Nuffield Trust UK - Cases, hospitalisations and deaths across the four nations
Look at the cases in 2020 and 2021, then look at the number of deaths.
Do you notice the steep reduction in hospitalizations and death rates, despite increasing case rates, now that most of the elderly and even many of the younger people are vaccinated?
It's not dumb luck, nor is it coincidence. Vaccines work. Treatments also work. We don't approve vaccines or therapeutic drugs based upon random positive outcome. The people who make money off of vaccines also make money off of therapeutic drugs. Either way, you're purchasing products from the same companies. I can tell you that the vaccines are far less costly than a stay in ICU. The therapeutics can also be less expensive than an ICU stay, but for some reason people have a hard time admitting to themselves when they're severely ill and need medical treatment. The hospitals and pharmaceuticals make money whether you use vaccines or drugs. Either way, they're getting paid.
Pfizer charges Uncle Sam, ultimately the American tax payer, $24 per dose of their mRNA product. You can purchase Ivermectin for $29.72 with insurance or $101.95 without insurance. The monoclonal antibodies are $2,100 per dose. All three products work quite well, but some are clearly cheaper than others. You can pay as much as you want to for your ideology. It makes no difference to me. I paid my 48 greenbacks for each family member, because money doesn't grow on trees. YMMV. Best of luck, no matter which option you choose. It's funny how hard-up you are for new technology, except when it comes to medical technology, although I guess everyone has their quirks.

louis · 2021-12-20 08:33:42

There are all sorts of statistical quirks that can occur. The authorities know that and seize on stuff to mislead the public. Take for instance, the period up to September 2021 - well during that period most people will have been unvaccinated even if the proportion of vaccinated was steadily growing. So it doesn't matter if the vaccines are effective or ineffective - the number of unvaccinated people getting Covid and ending up in hospital is going to be greater than that for the vaccinated simply because for most of that period they were in the majority.

Why haven't they released the figures since to September in the USA? The same trick is being pulled in England, although you can work out that the pattern is similar to Scotland's.

The other key factor is you have to look at all cause mortality and hospitalisations between vaccinated and unvaccinated. When you any apparent advantages simply evaporate because the vaccines are causing serious harm that gets people hospitalised. This is the case even when you adjust for age.

SpaceNut wrote:

we are seeing exactly the opposite Louis
https://ourworldindata.org/covid-deaths-by-vaccination
https://covid.cdc.gov/covid-data-tracke … ine-status
https://www.doh.wa.gov/Portals/1/Docume … inated.pdf
In September (the most up-to-date data available), for example, the CDC found unvaccinated people were nearly six times more likely to test positive for Covid-19 and 14 times more likely to die from it compared to fully vaccinated people.
https://www.health.state.mn.us/diseases … s/vbt.html
Something that I would hope would not happen is Pro-Trump counties now have far higher COVID death rates. Misinformation is to blame

SpaceNut · 2021-12-20 08:55:53

Is it really due to one receiving an injection or the change in habits afterwards?

kbd512 · 2021-12-20 08:59:01

Louis,

I figured out what it was. It's one of those Internet Service Provider (ISP) issues, wherein the ISP is blocking access to the page. The first error I received is a hard error, and then when I try to access the site without HTTPS, I can see that it's being block by my ISP.

If someone was selling the vaccines as a silver bullet, then no matter who they are, they are lying to you. That same admonition applies to all therapeutic drugs as well. There are no silver bullets in medicine. Vaccines are not weakening the immune system. Vaccines supplement the natural immune system. If they were, then there would be lots of other evidence of that, and we'd stop using them. For people who don't have natural immunity to COVID, what are they supposed to do? Die? Survival of the fittest? To hell with that ideological crapola.

I don't know what you're talking about, regarding hospitalization and death rate figures. I can see the numbers for the US from the very beginning until now, and they're located at the same URL that they were always located at. This "everybody's lying all the time" schtick is getting a little old. People with evidence-based arguments present their evidence with their arguments.

kbd512 · 2021-12-20 09:20:16

Calliban,

Yes, our "politics everywhere" people have worked overtime to turn a global pandemic into a political issue. Any evidence that doesn't support someone's line of argumentation over another is religiously ignored. I despise having politics and religion involved with medicine. Personally, I only care about numbers. Show me the data, show me the methods used to collect and categorize the data, and that's all I will ever care about. I also detest reductive arguments that are not based in proper accounting methodology, like "if everyone gets the vaccine, then only vaccinated people will get sick". Yeah, but how many got seriously ill or died before versus after the vaccine. We already know the answer to that, and despite claims, the hospitalization and death counts and number of people vaccinated continue to be published, month after month.

I've repeatedly stated that both vaccines and therapeutic drugs do work, but that point is ignored by people who favor either prevention or treatment. I wouldn't hesitate to use Ivermectin or Regeneron if the vaccine failed at protecting my body, but I'm going to try prevention, then treatment, then hospitalization (using machines to stay alive), in that order. If I happen to have natural immunity, then great, but the vaccines did no harm to me or any of my family members. I'm not going to "roll the dice" and simply "hope" that I have natural immunity, because I have no way of knowing if I'm immune to COVID or not.

To close, and reiterate for the umpteenth time, I am not in favor of single solutions to complex problems. I like having options, and I want everyone to have a menu of health care options, and I do not want to push one solution over another. I do want honesty in accounting and honesty in reporting of the accounting. I would hope that people who are rationally motivated want the same things. I know that my reasoning is not above reproach, and that the reasoning of so-called "experts" is not above reproach, either, and that only religious groups think that title or position is an indicator that someone is above reproach. Any honest scientist will admit that mistakes are both entirely possible and even likely when dealing with complex issues.

Mars_B4_Moon · 2021-12-23 15:08:36

The good news is that more than 40 Million Americans that is 40,500,000 Americans have recovered from Covid,
Musk expressed support for COVID-19 vaccines but also said it should be a choice I guess he has belief in freedoms and doesn't want to see anything like China where government health military people in Biohazard suits force people out of their homes.

If you have social media accounts you can see a lot of misinfo propaganda from various parts of the world on Covid cures, I see online stupid conspiracy said get aaway from 5G mobile-phone networks because a bunch of tinfoil hatter UFO people said '5-G' was doing some kind of bio-techno corona activation in people's bodies, one guy Edward J. Steele says its an alien virus from space, an Australian Microbiologist said Corona came from outer space trapped inside a meteor? Political Leaders such as Boris Johnson, Biden, American immunologist Fauci and the ex-President Trump have all been accused of spreading bad information. In parts of Hindu India and the United States people have pushed Spiritual healing, or some kind of voodoo new age mystic magic or prayer as cures, Indian political Leaders and Member of the Legislative Assembly pushed the idea of Bovine Pee as a cure and that drinking cow urine and applying cow dung would reflect or bounce the Corona virus away from a person. It went so crazy that two people were arrested under the National Security Act for social media posts which said cow urine and dung did not cure the virus because they 'offended religion' and spoke against India Hindu national culture. Sweden tried the controversial option of ‘herd immunity’ without lockdowns, this may have worked but the virus got inside nursing homes and Sweden's death numbers are far higher than its other Nordic neighbors, 1 million Swedish recovered fromt the virus and in a ways Sweden might be overcoming the virus but there was a cost in human lives when compared to other Scandanavia countries.

A lot of misinformation was posted the past two years but has since been debunked.

The USA might be now learningt how to best treat the virus.

I also hear the scientists at the US Army Created a Single Vaccine

However more than 806,500 Americans have died from Corona virus

Cases
https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/#countries
USA
52,641,019
India
34,765,976
Brazil
22,222,928

Death per Million
https://www.statista.com/statistics/110 … habitants/
deaths worldwide per one million

Mortality Rates
https://coronavirus.jhu.edu/data/mortality

https://freebeacon.com/coronavirus/bide … h-tracker/
401,595 Americans have died from COVID-19 since President Joe Biden took office and promised to "shut down the virus."

Once again we see a similar trend repeat an explosion of new cases in France, Spain and Italy once again, with numbers rising in Eastern Europe and South America, the facts are still coming in but it is speculated the Omicron variant is thought to cause a less severe version of covid

Last edited by Mars_B4_Moon (2021-12-23 16:03:32)

SpaceNut · 2021-12-23 19:24:25

The term vaccination was equated with past prevention/cures of which its now well known that these covid-19 plus variants are not that from all of the manufacturers. They can not even agree on boosters let alone whether its going to work for any of the variants which will keep morphing out of those that are infected.

We have heard that masks do work and others that say they do not and something that comes to mind is what qualifies for a mask is the issue. Plus the thing about wearing 2 of them or upgrade to N95 or similar high-filtration respirator when you're in public indoor spaces.

With omicron, you need a mask that means business gettyimages-1211010382-fc216aa82169c4e66432dbf598e59905274f5548-s800-c85.webp

Given all this, you want a mask that means business when it comes to blocking viral particles. Unlike cloth masks, N95, KN95 and KF94 respirators are all made out of material with an electrostatic charge, which "actually pulls these particles in as they're floating around and prevents you from inhaling those particles," Karan notes. "And that really is key" — because if you don't inhale virus particles, they can't multiply in your respiratory tract.

So if its loss its not going to work....

This common COVID treatment could stop omicron variant, early research shows

clark · 2021-12-26 13:56:02

I work at a hospital. The people dying are the unvaccinated. Those stating otherwise are categorically wrong.

If you can accept the science of orbital mechanics and the speed of light you should be able to accept the peer reviewed science behind vaccinations, both in general, and specifically for Covid-19.

Mars_B4_Moon · 2021-12-27 06:51:18

New poll shows Americans think Biden has done a lousy job fighting COVID
https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/opin … ting-covid
Biden to offer millions of at-home COVID-19 tests for Americans
https://www.bignewsnetwork.com/news/271 … -americans
James Dore aka jimmy Dore is an American stand-up comedian, political commentator, he used to be part of the Young Turks online tv broadcast 'Japan’s COVID Rates PLUMMETING – But Why?'
https://rumble.com/vr9tg8-japans-covid- … t-why.html
Jimmy Dore's content has received criticisms for promotion of Corona conspiracy theories

SpaceNut · 2021-12-27 09:09:53

Nice conspiracy pages that go to show what the unvaccinated are reading....

Clark thank you for the service in the trenches to all that come across the door sill.

The reality is Biden has done just the same level of effort to combating this virus and that its the people whom have failed to listen.

Vacinated by brand and unvacinated data comparison

It shows the truth about whom is now dead

clark · 2021-12-30 02:52:33

Thanks SpaceNut.

If you have the opportunity, get vaccinated. If you have the option, get the booster. If you have neither, limit your contact and soap like an OCD nut job. If you are vaccinated, even with booster, you are at risk. You won't die (likely), but it will suck. This will be your worst flu. This variant is worse than any prior in terms of infection. If you are not vaccinated, good luck on you dice roll.

kbd512 · 2021-12-30 05:23:34

clark,

Why would SpaceNut be at risk if he's vaccinated?

The entire point of taking any vaccine is prevention of serious illness and death, is it not?

Calliban · 2021-12-30 10:10:04

Clark, KBD512, Both my wife and I have already had coronavirus, back in March 2020, when no vaccine existed. It made us both ill for two weeks, though I will point out that we have both been more ill from other infections in the past. We got over the kung flu. My wife took the first dose of the vaccine mid last year. It caused so much inflammation in her middle ear, that she struggled to walk for six months afterwards.

Evidence is growing that RNA based COVID vaccinations are causing cardiovascular inflammation that is resulting in long term health effects. This is something that I know from personal experience to be true. The vaccine is spike proteins injected into patients to trigger production of antibodies against corona virus. The problem is that those spike proteins result in inflammation throughout the body.
https://www.nbcnews.com/health/health-n … s-n1270339

So here we are. The virus poses a risk to human health. So does the vaccine. In itself, that does not mean that taking the vaccine is necessarily the wrong decision. If the risk reduction from dying from corona virus is greater than the risk increase from heart disease due to taking the vaccine, then taking the vaccine would still be a good way of hedging our bets. There is seldom a perfect solution in life, after all. We are often forced to trade one risk against another.

But here is the rub. Corona virus is really only a big mortality risk for people who are heavily obese, have obesity related health conditions, or people over the age of seventy. The average age of death from corona virus is 82.5 years. For someone who is forty years old and generally in good health, the chances of dying from this disease are negligible. But the inflammatory response from the spike proteins is likely to be more severe in younger patients with healthy immune systems. What this means is, that for the majority of people, the risks associated with the vaccine are going to be greater than the risk from the disease itself. For young people, they will be very much greater. Any damage caused by cardiovascular inflammation could knock years off of their lives. So the vaccine may very well have a net disbenefit for society as a whole. We simply don't enough to be able to make a definitive decision.

So with the existing vaccines, we are asking the majority of people to take a net risk for the benefit of a relatively small minority. And they are being forced into that decision by coercive means, with threats to their livlihood if they don't obey. They rightly feel that this coercion is unethical and they are resisting. Do you really blame them?

Last edited by Calliban (2021-12-30 10:36:57)

SpaceNut · 2021-12-30 10:23:01

Its called break through as the vaccine is not a prevention tool of 100% as vaccines of the past were as you can not measure the immunity that one has over time for the vaccines give. We already know that they wane at differing levels depending on the age of the individual.

My self I am fully vaccinated (work requirement) but am due for a booster of which they have not offered yet. Will see if they are once I return to work after some much needed time off.

Both my parents were vaccinated but they let there guard down and caught the virus causing one to be hospitalized. So like Clark has indicated use the mask, wash the hands often and keep you guard up by following it up with the booster. They are both getting better slowly but stepdad has a very long road ahead of him to recover fully at 97 to get off the oxygen.

clark · 2021-12-30 13:31:54

kbd, if you use an umbrella in the rain, would you be surprised if you still got a little wet? Vaccinations reduce the opportunity for the virus to replicate. You want to eradicate it, like polio, then we need near universal immunization.

And contrary to the narrative that only fat or old people are at risk, this disease is killing healthy young adults. People in their 20's, 30's, 40's and 50's. Saying "i got it, and I'm fine, no big deal" is a bit like saying you got cancer and are fine so wtf is all the fuss. My hospital, we are all vaxed and boosted, but are suffering a staffing shortage due to covid- we are now taking triage measures and altering our operations. We are a level 1 trauma center. This is a place that handles mass casualty events.

The issue that largely gets ignored here is that you may survive covid, but a large percentage require hospitalization. Where are you going to go when you have chest pains and all the hospitals are full with covid patients? Do you know what it is like to talk about adjusting triage protocols for deciding on how we ration care for adults and children?

The risks with any of the vaccine are significantly smaller than what covid represents. Orders of magnitude smaller. And yes, people are being coerced to take the vaccine- this isn't done often and it isn't done lightly. If a neighborhood is in flames and we order people to evacuate, we cooerce those who want to sit in their burning house. This is the same damn thing.

Last edited by clark (2021-12-30 13:32:34)

kbd512 · 2021-12-30 16:27:54

clark,

clark wrote:

kbd, if you use an umbrella in the rain, would you be surprised if you still got a little wet? Vaccinations reduce the opportunity for the virus to replicate. You want to eradicate it, like polio, then we need near universal immunization.

No, but the umbrella manufacturers would never be permitted to claim that their products prevent anyone from getting wet, they are not granted immunity from prosecution if their product fails or kills someone, and nobody is being forced by their government to buy or carry an umbrella with them merely to go to work or school.

clark wrote:

And contrary to the narrative that only fat or old people are at risk, this disease is killing healthy young adults. People in their 20's, 30's, 40's and 50's. Saying "i got it, and I'm fine, no big deal" is a bit like saying you got cancer and are fine so wtf is all the fuss. My hospital, we are all vaxed and boosted, but are suffering a staffing shortage due to covid- we are now taking triage measures and altering our operations. We are a level 1 trauma center. This is a place that handles mass casualty events.

How many young healthy adults have died from COVID in your hospital versus old and fat people?

The numbers posted by CDC indicate that there's a hell of a lot more old and fat people than young and healthy people dying from COVID, and almost no children by way of comparison. If you're going to fear-monger, then the most constructive way of doing that is with an admonishment to not increase your risk of a fatal disease outcome through improved prevention measures. Vastly greater numbers of people die from complications related to obesity than die from being healthy to start with.

It sounds to me like you're relaying evidence that the vaccines have not done a good job of protecting your staff from COVID. That's not good news. Maybe it's time for your doctors to learn that prevention, however important, is merely a single aspect of medicine? And that when prevention fails, not if since all of us are clearly going to die from something, then it's time for good treatment options? And when treatment fails, then it's time for both doctors and patients to accept their own mortality? I know that's a crazy concept, but it also describes life.

clark wrote:

The issue that largely gets ignored here is that you may survive covid, but a large percentage require hospitalization. Where are you going to go when you have chest pains and all the hospitals are full with covid patients? Do you know what it is like to talk about adjusting triage protocols for deciding on how we ration care for adults and children?

Are you admitting that all those qualified applicants that we turn away from medical school, due to our absurd quota system, is now biting us in our fat rear ends? Nah, we couldn't admit that even doctors make mistakes. How would that affect the religion of the faithful? I've literally watched some doctors make the sign of the cross after writing prescriptions for meds. It cracks me up every time I see it. As much as we try to separate science and religion, we can't seem to actually do it.

clark wrote:

The risks with any of the vaccine are significantly smaller than what covid represents. Orders of magnitude smaller. And yes, people are being coerced to take the vaccine- this isn't done often and it isn't done lightly. If a neighborhood is in flames and we order people to evacuate, we cooerce those who want to sit in their burning house. This is the same damn thing.

That's clearly false, or FDA would never pull vaccines and medications, or recommend that people not take them. All products used in medicine have received FDA approval. Thereafter, FDA approval is rescinded on some of them. What does that mean boys and girls? That means FDA is run by humans who are capable of making mistakes and don't have a crystal ball they can use to see into the future, in order to know if somewhere down the road what they initially thought was at least not harmful and hopefully effective, may later turn out to be neither.

Finally, though, a tip-of-the-hat to orders of magnitudes. Bravo. Numbers matter. This is what I actually care about, because exceptions do not alter the rule. If 100X more people are dying of a disease than the vaccine used to prevent the spread of a disease, then you admit that some people will die when the vaccine is administered to them, but many many more will live as a result, so either way you're rolling the dice and hoping for the best. That is the exact sort of intellectual honesty that's almost entirely missing from this conversation.

The vaccines are not harmless, but neither is COVID. From what I've seen, the vaccines do a hell of a lot less damage than the disease. In every medicine, there's a little poison, and we do our best to ensure that the poison kills the disease we're targeting before it kills us, but since we're human we can also make mistakes and later be proven incorrect in our evaluation of what is effective or at least not harmful.

This is nothing like coercion used to evacuate people from a burning building. We know with 100% certainty that 100% of the people who remain in a burning building will die there. We know from historical evidence that 97% of COVID victims survive their ordeal while the other 3% who die generally fall into a category of people who are either so compromised by other illnesses or so old that almost any serious illness would kill them. We're coercing 97% of people to act in a way that might save the other 3%, or it might not, because anybody who claims they know what will happen 10 years from now to those who are vaccinated versus unvaccinated is a big fat liar.

The real question is whether or not governments have the power to coerce people into participating in a pharmaceutical company's medical experiment with a vaccine after another company created a designer virus in a lab and then released it into the wild due to negligence. I voluntarily participated in the vaccination experiment because of China's designer virus experiment, which I was involuntarily subjected to. I can understand if others don't want to participate, but I still think it's foolish not to take the vaccine after a lab engineered super virus has been spread into the wild by a bunch of filthy communists. Are scientists allowed to set occupied buildings on fire so that their peers are then allowed to test new fire retardant agents to put out Screaming Alphas? That seems like an egregiously bad idea to me, although I never claim to be an expert.

louis · 2021-12-30 20:25:31

Well you have definitely drunk deep of the Kool Aid.

We can tell because of course you offer no citations for your assertions. You are presenting us with anecdotes. That's all.

If your claims were true we would see a straight connection between vaccination and good health outcomes across the globe. We see nothing like that. There is no correlation. If you are claiming there is then you are a liar.

If you want to compare vaccination v non-vaccination you of course have to look at all-cause morbidity and all-cause mortality.

I really hate to think that someone like you - such a poor thinker - is in charge of triage ie life and death decisions. That's appalling.

clark wrote:

kbd, if you use an umbrella in the rain, would you be surprised if you still got a little wet? Vaccinations reduce the opportunity for the virus to replicate. You want to eradicate it, like polio, then we need near universal immunization.
And contrary to the narrative that only fat or old people are at risk, this disease is killing healthy young adults. People in their 20's, 30's, 40's and 50's. Saying "i got it, and I'm fine, no big deal" is a bit like saying you got cancer and are fine so wtf is all the fuss. My hospital, we are all vaxed and boosted, but are suffering a staffing shortage due to covid- we are now taking triage measures and altering our operations. We are a level 1 trauma center. This is a place that handles mass casualty events.
The issue that largely gets ignored here is that you may survive covid, but a large percentage require hospitalization. Where are you going to go when you have chest pains and all the hospitals are full with covid patients? Do you know what it is like to talk about adjusting triage protocols for deciding on how we ration care for adults and children?
The risks with any of the vaccine are significantly smaller than what covid represents. Orders of magnitude smaller. And yes, people are being coerced to take the vaccine- this isn't done often and it isn't done lightly. If a neighborhood is in flames and we order people to evacuate, we cooerce those who want to sit in their burning house. This is the same damn thing.

SpaceNut · 2021-12-30 20:51:08

Louis I guess you missed the post where clark states that he work at a hospital and that the people dying are the unvaccinated.
That is not Kool aid but first hand fact.

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