Clark postings

Calliban · 2021-12-21 12:31:28

A sample of clark's postings on this board:

clark wrote:

child. when you are not busy burning a cross or swastika, what do you do? you took the time to study my posts. you took the time to game me. and you settle on a meaningless political barb to lull me out? You are small. Your views are limited. You are not an American. Your views on immigration are not applicable.

clark wrote:

I'm sure Saudi Arabia and the rest of OPEC will be thrilled to learn you have this insight Caliban. Words. Empty like your analysis.

clark wrote:

HAHA. Sure thing. And then Unicorns. And Rainbows. And I made shit up out of nowhere. Caliban is a fuc*king idiot.

I could take this sort of thing personally, though frankly more than anything this guy sounds ill and thoroughly miserable. He is probably the longest serving member that still posts. If anyone has his contact details and knows him, maybe they can get in touch and check he is OK and not about to top himself?

Last edited by Calliban (2021-12-21 12:32:15)

tahanson43206 · 2021-12-21 12:48:20

For Calliban,

The matter is under discussion.

Please try to resist the temptation to respond further.

(th)

clark · 2021-12-22 02:20:01

Yes, resist. I appreciate the level of performative theater at play here. Oh yes, let's worry about clark. Clearly he can't be well if he disagrees with my racist bullsh*t. Yes. Let's discuss what to do with clark. Let's test our beliefs in free speech and the testing of ideas when confronted with one that abjectly rejects any semblance that your world view holds any merit.

I'm not ill. I'm not miserable. I'm sad. Sad at the realization that you are the inheritors of Mars. It was a fu*king blank canvas yet somehow the racists and lizard people believers found a home here.

To the rest of you. You dream of Mars for no good reason. Rocks and vacuum. For some it is just a problem to solve, for others it is a place to start over. I don't begrudge you that. For some though, it is a place to paint the worst parts of our shared human history. You suffer it at your own peril.

I know i am not a joy. I don't seek that. You want to ban me because the racist had his feelings hurt, so be it. I'll know better next time I type something in a forum called "free chat". Cheers.

RobertDyck · 2021-12-22 03:50:21

Please, let's all be civil. In 2006 I had an issue with Tom Kalbfus. We had excellent discussions, but then he decided to post personal attacks. You could say his posts became vitriol. I was not a moderator at that time, even though some members had already asked me to become one. I asked James Burk to do something. He was administrator at that time. James did not want to intervene, but posts by Tom Kalbfus got quite bad so I pleaded. James permanently banned Tom. That was more than I wanted. I wanted something, enough for Tom to be civil. As I said, I had useful and productive debates with Tom in the past, but his posts changed. I think a permanent ban is too harsh. But please, can we be civil. You can have disagreements without being a troll. And I think we've all used the internet long enough to know the difference.

By the way, it was after this incident that "free chat" was renamed to "not so free chat". And Josh wanted this forum to focus on space, with no discussion of real-life politics. I'm also the one who created the "Politics" thread. It was my intention to be a contained discussion thread where we could discuss real-life politics, but due to the danger of disagreements, politics would be restricted there. At first Josh did not want to permit it, but other members wanted it, so it was allowed. However, politics quickly spread.

Again, this is my plea to everyone. We are adults, please be civil.

kbd512 · 2021-12-22 05:14:12

clark,

The forum rules still apply to "free chat". You've made your dislike of Calliban crystal clear. If personal attacks against Calliban or any other members are the extent of what you intend to post, then feel free to move on.

Calliban,

If you are posting things with the intent of provoking irate responses from clark, then please stop.

Thanks.

Calliban · 2021-12-22 07:36:23

I have done nothing with the intention of provoking clark. In fact until yesterday, I wasn't particularly aware of his existence. I have nothing against the man, indeed I don't know him at all. I believe that I have respected forum rules and I have not personally attacked other members or been insulting or threatening to anyone in particular. But I don't think I can be responsible for whatever happens to trigger any man's personal neuroses. It doesn't seem right to me that debate should be curtailed just to prevent one man from publicly misbehaving. Surely that is his problem and not mine?

I don't have a problem with people disagreeing with me. That is healthy and this board would be pointless without different points of view. I have personally learned a lot from this board and there are many topics that have changed my mind on certain things. I am not calling for any particular action - that is entirely for others to decide. I am personally opposed to censorship, for what it is worth. But I would point out that what Clark has written indicates more than just disagreeing. He clearly cannot tolerate people that disagree with him and resorts to abusing anyone that utters a differing point of view. That is different to just disagreeing and saying so. It demonstrates deep seated psychological problems and frankly raises concerns around his mental health. I hope that he at least talks to someone about this for his own sake, before things get worse for him.

When people like that hold sway over rules of conduct you end up living in a police state, where you go to prison just for saying things that other people might disagree with. There is no compromise that can be reached with those people. Freedom of speech is either something you have or something you don't have. And without it, you do not live in a democratic state. I live in exactly such a place, where political zealots were able to criminalise people simply for uttering the wrong opinion. The same people that turned the UK into a police state are trying to do the same in the US, but are stiffled by the constitution, at least for the time being. It was the absence of a constitution that made it so easy for these people to undermine democracy in Britain. It should be a warning to everyone in the US. And you should not heed anyone that tells you that discussing certain topics is off limits just to protect their feelings. That is the first step on the road to serfdom; the road to a police state; the sort of place where you are not a person that is free to choose, but a resource to be used and a part within a machine. If you want to know what that looks like, read up on 1980s East Germany. And take a good look at what is happening to the UK, where many people now rot in prison not because of anything they did, but what they think and dared to say. It is a dead society now and the next few decades will see its final destruction. I hope the US can avoid that fate.

Last edited by Calliban (2021-12-22 07:45:20)

clark · 2021-12-22 09:54:24

Done nothing with the intent of provoking clark he types into a message thread titled "clark postings".

Somehow I am a living embodiment of current state politics in the UK? I'm the one with mental and emotional issues? Since when did American's take advice on the state and fate of democracy from monarch loving boot licking Englishmen? Are we going to learn how to build a better wall from a nation that lived through integrating Ireland?

kbd12, I will post as I always do. I find posts from some disagreeable. Calliban doesn't need your help, unless I am mistaken that the ravings of an emotional nutcase who clearly needs help somehow are a threat to poor, helpless, Calliban.

kbd512 · 2021-12-22 11:11:33

Calliban,

Implying that someone is mentally ill or suicidal when they have indicated that they are not, is generally considered offensive.

clark,

Responding to others by belittling them is generally considered offensive.

Both of you, please stop doing that to each other. Thank you.

RobertDyck · 2021-12-22 11:23:08

I'm not seeing anything worth banning clark. Freedom of speech is guaranteed in the First Amendment in the United States, and in the Charter of Rights and Freedoms in Canada. The world is experiencing a major crisis called COVID. During past crises, certain politicians and bureaucrats have attempted to manipulate the crisis to destroy civil liberties, gain more power for the Government, and impose controls that not only turn our country into a dictatorship, but also allow the rich to manipulate the system so become richer. We live in a pandemic, but what the government does under the excuse of the pandemic is very dangerous, we have to watch very closely.

Again, I'm not seeing anything worth banning anyone. I ask the two of you to tone down your rhetoric. Stick to the issues, do not call anyone names.

RobertDyck · 2021-12-22 11:23:40

I'm not seeing anything worth banning clark. Freedom of speech is guaranteed in the First Amendment in the United States, and in the Charter of Rights and Freedoms in Canada. The world is experiencing a major crisis called COVID. During past crises, certain politicians and bureaucrats have attempted to manipulate the crisis to destroy civil liberties, gain more power for the Government, and impose controls that not only turn our country into a dictatorship, but also allow the rich to manipulate the system so become richer. We live in a pandemic, but what the government does under the excuse of the pandemic is very dangerous, we have to watch very closely.

Again, I'm not seeing anything worth banning anyone. I ask the two of you to tone down your rhetoric. Stick to the issues, do not call anyone names.

SpaceNut · 2021-12-22 13:00:08

Adding posts

tahanson43206 wrote:

For Clark re #5
The post by Calliban is deeply offensive to millions of people. However, it ** was ** posted in a "safe zone".
I do NOT read anything in the Chat, because I know it has a high probability of being offensive.
However, surprisingly, it is Calliban who objected to your calling him out.
The matter has now moved out of Chat and it is sitting squarely in the middle of the flow of the forum.
The problem for the community is that we have members who are both productive and offensive.
If this were a small ship out in the middle of the Arctic Ocean, or a space vessel on it's way to Mars, we would have to deal with the situation without losing any personnel.
(th)

SpaceNut · 2021-12-22 13:00:24

Calliban wrote:

tahanson43206 wrote:
The problem for the community is that we have members who are both productive and offensive.
If this were a small ship out in the middle of the Arctic Ocean, or a space vessel on it's way to Mars, we would have to deal with the situation without losing any personnel.
(th)
Anyone with an ounce of creativity will see the hypocrisy of censoring topics because of what they might do to other people's feelings. Only the dullest and least imaginative of people would advocate that. Also, I would point out that what you and clark find offensive, I do not. And vice versa. If you are trying to shield people from things that hurt their feelings, you will find yourself never allowing anyone to say very much. I personally know people that are offended by the idea of space travel, because we should instead be sending the money and resources to starving black kids in Africa. To satisfy those people, you would have to shut down this whole board.
If you disagree with something I say, then you are welcome to point out exactly where you find flaw with the logic.

SpaceNut · 2021-12-22 13:00:44

clark wrote:

Hey Calliban, you were the one that decided to call mom and dad because your precious sensibilities were challenged.
Little known fact, "Not so free chat" is called that because of me. This isn't my first conversation. You are just one more version of an endless iteration. Sometimes you say interesting things about space. Anytime you speak about non-space things, you are just an offensive d*ck.
Merry Christmas.

SpaceNut · 2021-12-22 13:03:57

other off topic removal

tahanson43206 wrote:

For SpaceNut primarily ... all others welcome ...
I was curious to know what the Mars Society editorial policy might be...
The NewMars forum is a publishing entity sponsored by and reflective of the Mars Society
It turns out that the question of forum content has come up before.
In another topic, clark (from 2001 and still active in the forum) explained that he has been a party to various differences of opinion over the years.
This particular topic originated in 2012. If anything came of it, I have not heard about it.
I recently attended the 15th Annual International Mars Society Convention in Pasadena, CA. It culminated with the landing on Mars of the Curiosity Rover. I discussed the fact that NewMars.com was back online with several of the people there, including Susan Martin, who is now the Executive Director of the Mars Society. I also mentioned that we are still trying to recover the data from the 2007-2010 time period for these forums, with not much luck. We probably will just go on with what is here now -- with the users/discussions/groups hierarchy in its current state, and moderators that are currently designated.
We are going to proceed with establishing an editorial board for the New Mars Journal and these discussion forums. The editorial board will ensure that there are active moderators for each of the Discussion areas, and will reestablish the New Mars Journal with new content and articles. We will implement the Editorial Board as a restricted-access Google Group under @marssociety.org. The exact address is TBD. This is done not only to speed communication among the board but also to create an audit trail and ease in posting any meeting minutes here.
If you are interested in serving on the New Mars editorial board, please email me - jburk@marssociety.org -- I plan to invite Adrian Hon and Richard Wagner, who both were previous editors in chief of the New Mars Journal.
We are open to suggestions on how to best improve these discussion forums. Use the main Suggestion Box -- You can open a support ticket with our IT staff as well by emailing webmaster@marssociety.org -- that will open a ticket in our new support system and somebody will be sure to get back to you in response to your suggestion.
Thanks,
James Burk | Director of InfoTech & MarsVR | The Mars Society
jburk@marssociety.org | +1 (206) 601-7143
It seems to me that a possible solution for keeping productive members engaged in Mars Society related activities is to implement a post review policy.
If a particular post does not advance the objectives of the Mars Society, but it does not detract from them, then it might be allowed to float off harmlessly into the sunset.
However, if a particular post does not advance the objectives of the Mars Society, and in fact seriously detracts from the peace and tranquility of the working group, then it can be deleted by an Administrator or Moderator, with appropriate documentation, as provided for by FluxBB.
(th)

SpaceNut · 2021-12-22 13:04:15

clark wrote:

For the record, I've been posting on this board well before 2001.
If you want to curate what is posted so it is more in line with what you think is appropriate, I'm happy to be your meat puppet. Just tell me the words you agree with so what you read is exactly what you expect.

SpaceNut · 2021-12-22 13:04:30

Calliban wrote:

I'm opposed. People that do not value freedom of speech are always happy to see censorship. I am not afraid of any opinion that anyone writes. No one will offend me by discussing any topic. And you should be free to express any point of view. I would just rather not see personally directed insults. Certain people here seem unable to post without that. It lowers the tone of the whole board. But if I have to tolerate that for the sake of free speech, then so be it.

clark · 2021-12-22 16:08:12

I'm posting in a thread dedicated to my posts for the meta. I feel like i need to start talking about myself in the third person.

Calliban · 2021-12-26 18:15:55

clark wrote:

"What parts of maintaining a modicum of civility in public discourse are insufferably wrong?"
Maintaining civility in the face of those who spout hate or express ideas that are anathema to a base level of civilized society is patently absurd.
I am continually amazed at the level of insight and knowledge expressed here when it comes to science and Mars. I am equally horrified when these same wunderkinds then start spouting off on matters not related to science or mars, such as the state of racism, immigration, human rights, vaccination, etc.

Clark, I am putting this in the free chat section, because it is a better place for such discussions than the Meta board.

I am not going to waste too much of either of our time attempting to convince you of the validity of my point of view, or the error of yours (in my opinion), on topics like race, multiculturalism and immigration. Suffice to say, I do not share your point of view, at least so far as I understand it, that racial integration and unlimited immigration are good things for society. I don't believe them to be moral things to do at all, that is to say, I believe that it is morally wrong to inflict them on society. And I find your moral indignation towards me and verbal abuse, simply for failing to agree with you, to be naive and frankly more than a little unhinged. It is the verbal abuse that I object to, not your point of view. I will happily listen to whatever you have to say and my responses will be respectful, but I won't necessarily agree with you. That is a fact of life that you need to get used to.

I am unlikely to ever agree with your point of view on immigratikn because I have seen the results on the ground. I have witnessed the crime wave that was unleashed on my home town when it went from being close to 100% white to 60% white, over a 20 year period from about 2000. In that time, incidence of violent crime has tripled. I have seen the black and Asian gangs that make it unsafe to walk the streets at night. I have spoken to some of the young English girls that were raped my Asian paedophile gangs that are now a serious problem for any young, white female living in the town. I have watched investment flee the town and the once wide range of shops disappear only to be replaced with kebab shops, pound shops and ethnic takeaways. Many people, sick of what the town has turned into and fearful for their children's safety, have moved away. My home town was not a bed of roses 20 years ago. But it was not the flea pit that it is now.

For me to advocate Liberal opinions on immigration and racial integration after what I have seen and what I have watched others go through, would be immoral, if not outright insane. The problem with trying to advocate such positions now is that we have had a real life experiment with mass immigration, multiculturalism and racial integration in Britain for the past fifty years and it has accelerated dramatically over the past 25 years. It has ruined the place in a way that no objective observer would disagree with.

Clearly your world-view on these matters is completely different to mine. I can only imagine that your experiences have also been completely different to mine. Maybe you have seen positive attributes to this situation that I have not. All I know is that my home town was destroyed by mass immigration. As far as I am concerned, Liberal attitudes towards immigration and racial equality, are immoral. For me to think otherwise would mean ignoring the evidence of my own eyes. If you wish to convince me of the error of my thinking, then I am open to listen. But it is going to be a tough sell.

Regardless, you and I need to discuss things in a civil manner and agree to disagree. There are plenty of topics on this board, that would benefit from your input. They are mostly technical in nature, but we have a wide range of skillsets here. And different points of view are always welcome. There is plenty that I have learned from each of the contributors here. I look forward to hearing your contributions as well.

Last edited by Calliban (2021-12-26 18:26:07)

kbd512 · 2021-12-26 19:02:24

Calliban,

Race and skin color doesn't have anything to do with holding moral values, which are taught at home by parents who are moral people. Over the time I've been alive, skin color and ethnicity hasn't been a good determining factor of much of anything. Show me which young men and women grew up with their father in the home, and apart from physical illness, I'll show you who will be successful later in life and who will fail.

Morality means everything. Skin color / ethnicity / poverty / lack of education means nothing. My parents' parents were as close to flat broke as you could be without living in the street. All of their children graduated from college and became productive members of society, because they had moral values instilled in them by their parents and the Roman Catholic Church. Discriminating against people on the basis of skin color was not one of the values taught by the Roman Catholic Church.

clark · 2021-12-27 03:00:36

I'll get personal. I grew up in white America suburbia. I don't know how you lived. I'm a mixed race half breed who, lucky for skin color, can blend in, I get a tan, I get pulled over, and i get the extra TSA check. But otherwise, I'm a white guy American who was out in the sun a little longer than is healthy.

I'm third generation, which means my immigrant grandfather is either a problem or a story of success. My father endured bigotry not because of race (he was white) but because of religion. My family, fathers side, rejects me because I'm not fully white. The fuc*king irony is sweet and deep.

Calliban, i feel for you. But you fuk*ing toss, the problems you face are not racial. The brown people around you are not the problem. I am not the problem. You want to pretend otherwise, well, you are dumber than I thought. poor people without options are the problem. Fix that you fuc*ing wanker.

kbd512 · 2021-12-27 06:48:22

All this time I thought we agreed to dispense with name calling and unhealthy fascinations with immutable physical characteristics...

clark · 2021-12-29 04:05:45

Not sure there was ever an agreement hoss. Hey Caliban, I'm your minority freak that is the reason your world is crumbling, until I hear you say that my skin color doesn't matter, you are a wanker. Not sure where life got you unsorted. I'm here for Mars. You want to dream it, dream it, You want to remake your sad life in a better way, so be it, but if you call out life here on earth, well, do so in a less obvious racist way. Otherwise I'm just going to making a god damn stink and all the other people around us will feel awkward.

kbd12, hope the wife is doing better. happy new year.

RobertDyck · 2021-12-29 05:34:39

Hey clark, your skin colour doesn't matter. Give it a break.

You were picked on? So was I. One day my father taught me how to fish. It was a fishing hole a short drive from my grandparents farm, where my father grew up. Some kids from the city showed up. They were upset someone was there, and chose to be insulting and abusive. I tried to point out that my family is from here. But they were just more insulting. My father's family is Mennonite. These kids were prejudiced against Mennonites. I'm all white, born in Canada, my father was born in Canada, as was his father before him. My great grandfather immigrated to Canada in 1879 at the age of 10. He built the farm when he was in his early 20s. Let's see, he would have been 21 in 1890. My grandfather inherited the family farm. His wife, my grandmother, was born and raised in Altona Manitoba. The farm was in Blumenhof Saskatchewan. Yet these kids from the small city of Swift Current displayed prejudice against me. My father was right there, smiling at me. He wouldn't let them hit me, but did nothing when they said words to insult not only me but my family and everyone from the town of Blumenhof.

I grew up in Transcona. When I was 10, the communities surrounding Winnipeg merged with Winnipeg. So now Transcona is just the east end. When I grew up there was a distinct separation. White collar workers lived in houses on the east side of Day street, blue collar workers on the west. My father was a welder in the heavy equipment shop. He got a community college diploma in "engineering", which focused on advanced techniques of welding. He was the only one in the shop with a diploma. His title was boiler maker. That made sense in early 1960s because the railroad still operated steam locomotives. But he worked on heavy equipment, not locomotives. Still, that title meant he was certified to weld pressure vessels. However, the children didn't care; I came from the west side so they showed prejudice.

We're all feeling pressure due to COVID restrictions. It's affecting my job. Affecting a lot. Let's not let this get to us. And clark, I thought you said you were in the UK, but I see you have time zone set to Eastern. That implies somewhere in the United States. Eastern Canada also uses that time zone, as does Cuba, Columbia, Ecuador, and Peru. So what's up?

clark · 2021-12-30 02:30:31

Hi Robert, thanks for the reply.

Skin color doesn't matter here, but how we look and are categorized does matter, your own life outline only reinforces this point. You dealt with bigotry growing up. So did I. What should the appropriate response be when we see someone push or advocate for bigotry?

I've never claimed to live in the UK. I'm US. I'm West Coast. I've travelled to the UK, Europe, Mexico, China, Japan, India, and several other spots in-between. I've lived east coast. I've travelled the US. Put me in whatever bucket you need to,.

Robert, you are one of the few here that deserves the dream that is Mars. You are insightful. You are considerate. Time and time again I have seen you take an idea and improve upon it, not out of ego, but simply to add a level of insight that was missing. You have always impressed me.

I'm sorry you don't have more partners worth your time.

SpaceNut · 2021-12-30 10:14:23

Being labeled poor has the same effect for life from childhood through even currently. Putting labels on people is what is wrong.

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#1 2021-12-21 12:31:28

Clark postings

#2 2021-12-21 12:48:20

Re: Clark postings

#3 2021-12-22 02:20:01

Re: Clark postings

#4 2021-12-22 03:50:21

Re: Clark postings

#5 2021-12-22 05:14:12

Re: Clark postings

#6 2021-12-22 07:36:23

Re: Clark postings

#7 2021-12-22 09:54:24

Re: Clark postings

#8 2021-12-22 11:11:33

Re: Clark postings

#9 2021-12-22 11:23:08

Re: Clark postings

#10 2021-12-22 11:23:40

Re: Clark postings

#11 2021-12-22 13:00:08

Re: Clark postings

#12 2021-12-22 13:00:24

Re: Clark postings

#13 2021-12-22 13:00:44

Re: Clark postings

#14 2021-12-22 13:03:57

Re: Clark postings

#15 2021-12-22 13:04:15

Re: Clark postings

#16 2021-12-22 13:04:30

Re: Clark postings

#17 2021-12-22 16:08:12

Re: Clark postings

#18 2021-12-26 18:15:55

Re: Clark postings

#19 2021-12-26 19:02:24

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#20 2021-12-27 03:00:36

Re: Clark postings

#21 2021-12-27 06:48:22

Re: Clark postings

#22 2021-12-29 04:05:45

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#23 2021-12-29 05:34:39

Re: Clark postings

#24 2021-12-30 02:30:31

Re: Clark postings

#25 2021-12-30 10:14:23

Re: Clark postings

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