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SpaceNut

Administrator

From: New Hampshire

Registered: 2004-07-22

Posts: 29,433

Re: Fixing Americas car industry

Glad that you have an answer to the problem.

With the age of the car its probably still had original cat's...its still bad enough for the cost I am sure.

My escape has 4 convertors in the system and they are not cheap....

adding context to next post

At a global scale, batteries don't work to power anything beyond laptops and cell phones.  Simple physics doesn't care about the feelings of our magical thinkers

But physics doesn't forbid anything of that. Biases does.

I see electric cars working perfectly now, and I didn't see "Mr Physics" appearing screaming to forbid it.

Every solar panel and wind turbine on the planet was made using fossil fuels.  That is a fact, whether anyone likes it or not.

What did you expect? You live in a world that works mostly on fossil fuels, so every industry, including renewable, using a lot of fossil fuels in the process.
But also uses electricity in a lot of steps of the process... And electricity has partially renewable based.
So, over the same argument, fossil fuels also use renewable energy embedded.

That's a sophism in a broader sense and doesn't means nothing. The thing is that the process to build renewable doesn't require fossil fuels. It uses because our current model uses.
It could need carbon materials and energy for sure. But that doesn't need fossil fuels per se.

In fact, most steps could be changed into electricity based alternatives that are more efficient with cheap electricity. Obviously, that isn't right if the electricity is fuel based from start, so the electricity generation is more wasteful than use the fuel directly in the industry.

But with renewable becoming more and more cheap, and fossil fuels becoming more and more expensive, there is a time where using renewable electricity in a electricity based industry is better and using fossil fuels in a burning fuel based industry.
Things like produce cement or steel will use a lot more electricity and a lot less fuel in next decades, because of the change of the energy mix of this future.

And the rhetoric of "renewable use fossil fuel" will turn false one step at a time.

As an argument about "because that renewable can't work" is flawed.

The fuel will be more expensive than fossil fuels, but in my opinion, that is a temporary situation.

In just a few years it will become a social faux pas to extract fossil fuel in order to use it for something so crude as burning it.

The technology needed to make synthetic fuel exists.  The challenge is to find ways to make it in sufficient quantity, and at a competitive price, so that it makes more sense to use ** real ** hydrocarbons as lubricants and for other useful products.

(th)

Market tends to choose best suited solution. fuel from electricity will be always more expensive that using electricity directly using batteries.

Of course, there is niches where price is not important, like rich people doesn't care about that, or maybe there is some aspect that is more important in that context. For example, police cars dedicated to persecution, it could be better not to be restricted by short range.

But I don't see good reasons for most people to use the expensive alternative when they can buy an electric car with a lot more cheap recharge.

Yes... Electric cars are more expensive... now. But it is a scale thing. If massive production, the price of batteries will be more cheap than the accumulated price of fuel-recharge difference across the vehicle life. Now, is around the same value. In next years, the difference will be obvious.

Besides... there is some bottlenecks in production. Well... It's expected that it will take time to scale the infrastructure. Battery factories, mining, mineral processing, adapt car manufacturing, etc. etc.

But the sells of electricity cars are exponential. Even if the numbers are low, with exponential numbers it will take less time that most think.

kbd512

Administrator

Registered: 2015-01-02

Posts: 7,858

Re: Fixing Americas car industry

Spaniard,

But physics doesn't forbid anything of that. Biases does.

Speaking of sophisms, physics doesn't expressly forbid traveling faster than the speed of light, either, but in much the same way that nobody has come up with a fully reversible electrochemical reaction technology with an energy density within an order of magnitude of combustion of hydrocarbon fuels, thus far nobody has come up with a viable way to travel faster than light, either.  Whether something is expressly forbidden by known physics or not, everything we presently know about electrochemistry doesn't allow us to produce batteries that are functional like-kind replacements for combustion engines.  Nothing I've seen or heard or read about makes me think that's likely to change within the next half century.  Meanwhile, my patience is wearing thin with the "one day this, one day that, one day the other" people.

The global economy doesn't run on "hope and change" or "one day...".  It runs on science that's reducible to repeatable engineering practices.  As of right now, that means turning heat from combustion into power.  We obviously have other ways of producing power, but I've never seen a practical battery powered mining truck or a nuclear powered airplane.

One day someone may figure out how to make a practical warp drive as well, but I doubt that you or I will live to see it.

I see electric cars working perfectly now, and I didn't see "Mr Physics" appearing screaming to forbid it.

Your definition of "working perfectly" must vary quite a bit from mine.  I don't define "working perfectly" to mean the battery itself both costs and weighs as much as a complete combustion engine powered car to provide equivalent range, is not recyclable into a new battery, requires elements that are difficult to extract and at enormous energy cost to boot, yet also requires complete replacement every 10 years or so, assuming it doesn't short circuit first.  There are no Lithium-ion batteries produced 20 years ago that are still in use today.  20 years from now, none of the batteries in use today will be used then.  There are numerous combustion engines used in oilfield operations that have been providing continuous power for longer than Lithium-ion batteries have existed.  When science creates a battery that can be continuously operated for several decades, then you have a point.

"Mr Physics" says any technology that costs a lot upfront in terms of money and input energy, can't or won't be recycled into a new battery because the energy cost of doing that is well beyond the energy cost of making a new one using virgin materials, and can be easily destroyed whenever the electronics that control how it charges / discharges fail, and doesn't approach within an order of magnitude of the energy density of what the battery purports to replace, is NOT a very good solution.  Oddly enough, "Mr Pragmatism" says the same thing.

What did you expect? You live in a world that works mostly on fossil fuels, so every industry, including renewable, using a lot of fossil fuels in the process.

I expected that people who are so eager to prove that whatever they define as "renewable energy", is actually made using their "renewable energy", rather than copious quantities of fossil fuels, because that was the only way we made those technologies remotely affordable to begin with.  When the fossil fuels are gone, either through depletion or government mandates, our "renewable energy" future goes with it.  If those people want to convince me otherwise, then they can start by mining and smelting metal without burning coal and gas and diesel, then work their way up to trying to wholesale replace every other existing piece of energy generating infrastructure with silicon or wind turbines and batteries.  Thus far nobody has done that and it's painfully obvious why they haven't (because they can't).

But also uses electricity in a lot of steps of the process... And electricity has partially renewable based.  So, over the same argument, fossil fuels also use renewable energy embedded.

Does that mean we can stop using coal or gas or diesel powered machines to mine, refine, and transform the ridiculous quantities of materials that solar panels and wind turbines and batteries require?

When shall we expect our battery powered mining trucks to be recharged by clean renewable sunshine and wind?

10 years, 20 years, or maybe 50 years?

Batteries pre-date the internal combustion engine, so when should we expect that to happen?

If you think we can, then stop talking about it and get on with it.  Talk is cheap and time is wasting.

That's a sophism in a broader sense and doesn't means nothing. The thing is that the process to build renewable doesn't require fossil fuels. It uses because our current model uses.

It sure is.  We don't have one silly battery powered mining truck that's recharged by a wind turbine driving it uphill from the mine to the smelter, nor are we smelting any iron ore with sunlight.  Since enough of that clean renewable sunshine is capable of liquefying Tungsten, why isn't anybody actually doing that?  What are they waiting for (besides everyone else's money)?

Renewable energy uses fossil fuels because there is no other practical way to make all these absurdly inefficient and complex machines that never existed before fossil fuels existed.  The mere fact that something is possible doesn't mean someone will figure out how to do it.  Any suggestion to the contrary is a non-sequitur.

It could need carbon materials and energy for sure. But that doesn't need fossil fuels per se.

When should I expect Tesla to stop importing electricity from those coal-fired power plants?

In fact, most steps could be changed into electricity based alternatives that are more efficient with cheap electricity. Obviously, that isn't right if the electricity is fuel based from start, so the electricity generation is more wasteful than use the fuel directly in the industry.

Bingo.  That's why no corporation actually does what you just described doing.  The energy that would be required to produce all or even most of the input energy to make the next solar panel or wind turbine or battery would make them even more absurdly expensive than they already are.  That's before any recycling, since Lithium and rare earth metals and advanced composites don't grow on trees.

But with renewable becoming more and more cheap, and fossil fuels becoming more and more expensive, there is a time where using renewable electricity in a electricity based industry is better and using fossil fuels in a burning fuel based industry.

IF renewable energy was actually becoming cheaper, then at some point the electricity rates paid by the consumers of that "renewable electricity" would start going down, rather than up.  That clearly hasn't happened since this insanity began, so I can only conclude that renewable energy is NOT getting any cheaper.  The charlatans preaching their religion to the rest of us are merely getting more creative about how they attempt (and fail miserably) to hide the true cost.

Things like produce cement or steel will use a lot more electricity and a lot less fuel in next decades, because of the change of the energy mix of this future.

In that case, things like cement and steel will become so expensive that most people will no longer be able to afford to purchase them.  Since all forms of "renewable energy" require insane quantities of concrete and steel, that'll put a damper on our "renewable future".  Welcome to energy poverty.  Welcome to pre-industrial civilization, where life is very short and very bleak, and virtually everyone is destitute from the moment they're born.

And the rhetoric of "renewable use fossil fuel" will turn false one step at a time.

Whereas the rhetoric of the people claiming that their "renewable energy" is clean or cheap will somehow turn true?

I've yet to see any evidence of that.

The piper gets paid, no matter what form of energy you use.  I'm only questioning why we're paying the piper so much for so little energy.

As an argument about "because that renewable can't work" is flawed.

The argument that you can run a technologically advanced society using diffuse and intermittent energy sources that require 10 to 1,000 times greater material (and thus energy) input to provide equivalent power when compared to competing alternatives is flawed beyond all belief, in the mathematical sense of that term.

Finally, name off an energy efficiency improvement that has actually reduced energy consumption.  Take your time.  I'll wait, at least until I keel over, because that's how long I expect I'll be waiting.

SpaceNut

Administrator

From: New Hampshire

Registered: 2004-07-22

Posts: 29,433

Re: Fixing Americas car industry

The number of fires and recalls surely are not the way to get Americans to buy our product produced here...
The Chevy Bolt recall is burning up what’s left of GM’s EV good will

On Thursday, GM announced that it is extending the Bolt’s production shutdown until mid-October, as it apparently hasn’t been able to get supplier LG to produce replacement batteries that are up to snuff. It will need a lot of them, too, as GM has recalled all Bolts made to date — nearly 150,000. (The company says some vehicles will only need certain modules replaced, while others will get the whole battery pack swapped.)

Still charging forward the auto make is planning more change to its product lines.

General Motors plans to launch 30 new electric vehicles around the world by 2025, and aspires to sell only zero-emissions vehicles by 2035.

Well make them affordable or they will be sitting on the dealerships lots…

not charging above 90 percent, or letting their vehicle’s battery drain below around 70 miles of range.

That sounds like a lithium Ion battery pack....plus fast charging is a no, no, as these are rated to charge at 10% of the ampere hour rating....

SpaceNut

Administrator

From: New Hampshire

Registered: 2004-07-22

Posts: 29,433

Re: Fixing Americas car industry

We have discussed the cost of an EV as unobtainable and Ford CEO Says EVs Remain Beyond Reach Of Average Buyers — Mining Needs To Be Brought Back To US Alongside Battery Production

F-150 Lightning early next year at a ticket price of $39,974 onwards for the base model and a range of 230 miles

kbd512

Administrator

Registered: 2015-01-02

Posts: 7,858

Re: Fixing Americas car industry

SpaceNut,

It's all down to batteries and electronics, unless someone commits to building a practical electrical rather than electronic passenger motor vehicle.  I have no need for an electronic vehicle, although I would very much like to have a practical electrical vehicle that can be recharged in the garage without unacceptable risk of incinerating a much more expensive house to the ground, with my family inside of it, which means Lead-acid batteries.  Endlessly increasing complexity is NOT technological progress, except as it relates to complexity itself, and is more akin to engineering the automotive equivalent of a Rube Goldberg device.

Many of the kids are very enamored with their rolling arcade game, but a car is supposed to be a simple / reliable / durable / affordable personal transportation device.  A tubular steel vehicle chassis, with no superfluous mechanical or electronic wizardry, powered by an electrical motor, is exactly what "right looks like", to my way of thinking.  Substituting electronic and software complexity for mechanical complexity is NOT actually reducing overall complexity, nor the degree to which a machine so-designed is more or less complicated than the electronic combustion engine vehicles that came before them.  I guess most people are blissfully ignorant of most software and electronic failures, until such failures prevent them from driving their vehicle, and then that very real complexity, if they actually have to fix their own car, is readily apparent, but not a moment before then.

If I can have a true electric car at an affordable price, repairable using a torque wrench and volt meter, then I'm totally onboard with that, because it makes my life easier.  If I can't figure out what's wrong with the car without a $10,000+ in electronic test equipment, then to hell with that nonsense.  I don't give two hoots about whether or not the car can go 200 miles, because I won't sit on my butt for that long.

Someone needs to inform our automotive wizards about what the definition of "a practical daily driver" actually means.  Practical doesn't mean 1,000hp, the car doesn't need to go from 0-60 in 2 seconds unless it's a purpose-built drag racing machine, and 300+ miles of range is about 5 to 10 times beyond how far 90% of all vehicle owners actually drive in a day.  That's like trying to combine long-haul trucking with race car performance attributes, which is an absurdity by definition.

SpaceNut

Administrator

From: New Hampshire

Registered: 2004-07-22

Posts: 29,433

Re: Fixing Americas car industry

I saw in other references that Ford was going to build 3 battery building facilities to lower the cost for the business use of them within there firms cars and Trucks but the issue for the battery is still as you noted the vehicles mass needs to drop to lessen the battery current draw.

We have seen the delay of new vehicles as a result of not having enough electronic components to make the cars work.

For a year and a half, a lack of computer chips has been plaguing the auto industry, forcing plants to shut down, delaying auto shipments and sending car prices through the roof.

The Chevrolet Bolt recall has been so frustrating for General Motors  taps Honeywell's Quality Control System for Ultium battery plant saying it was "not confident" that LG — which produces the Bolt's batteries — could produce batteries without defects.

of course others are still looking at the cheap labor
How this auto giant will go all-in with electric cars in South Africa

or you can go with another style of vehicle
GM’s BrightDrop starts building its first electric vans

or the adds for what you know you do not want
2022 Rivian R1T Is the First Electric Pickup Truck to Conquer Hell's Gate

What they think we want for an EV ....NOT
Cool British EV Roadster Previews One Possible Sports Car Future
The Aura electric roadster prototype created by a consortium of British companies previews emissions-free sports car tech, with two 44-kWh batteries.

Electric supercars have a power problem

Not likely to be cheap or realistic as a commuter vehicle
Next up Students at the National Polytechnic Institute of Cambodia (NPIC) built a human-carrying drone which was filmed flying around their campus. Thuok David, who is Head of the NPIC drone film project, shared footage of test flights that were filmed between September 17 to 27.

kbd512

Administrator

Registered: 2015-01-02

Posts: 7,858

Re: Fixing Americas car industry

If you have a true electric vehicle that doesn't require a single microchip, that's an "improvement" over both electrically-controlled combustion engine and purely electronic vehicles, in my book.  Every mechanic on the planet should be able to figure out a simple wiring diagram and electric motor.  The batteries are series-parallel wired to a voltage transformer to increase voltage, and a current regulator limits discharge rate, with the motor being the load.  Performance is relative to the actual requirement.  Daily driver road vehicles require 75mph top speed, good low-speed torque, perhaps 200hp maximum output, with a maximum range between 100 and 200 miles.  Anything beyond that is an electronic race car attempting to pawn itself off as a daily driver.  If you can make sufficient torque at low speed, then you don't even need a transmission.  If not, then a transmission may be required.  If each wheel has a hub motor, then you don't need axles and drive shafts.

What we certainly can have an exceptionally high quality welded DOM tubing chassis, powder or ceramic coated chassis, welded sheet metal door panels, and battery boxes, LED lights with appropriate voltage regulation, and the weight increase from the batteries can be partially offset through elimination of every superfluous "feature" that does not produce a simple / functional / durable motor vehicle design.

Someone needs to do a better job of selling the many benefits of simple and reliable technology.  The ultimate benefit (keeping more money in your pocket) should be really obvious, but apparently it isn't.  Given the amount of maintenance nonsense that a true electric car could eliminate, there's no possibility of any other type of car being cheaper to own and operate, and cost ultimately sells cars.  That is ultimately what will cause a transition to occur.

kbd512

Administrator

Registered: 2015-01-02

Posts: 7,858

Re: Fixing Americas car industry

I'm supposed to receive my Charger back from the repair shop with a State Inspection report, either tomorrow or the next day, assuming the test drive goes well.  That took just shy of 2 full months, for a total cost around $8K, in order to get a vehicle that's only worth $5K back to usable condition.

SpaceNut

Administrator

From: New Hampshire

Registered: 2004-07-22

Posts: 29,433

Re: Fixing Americas car industry

Its not easy if you are not with the funds to do what you did. My self I would had to do the work in order to be able to afford the vehicle.

My own case with the subaru engine is going to turn out with the vehicle being traded in to the place that it was bought at towards a Prius hybrid one you different for a 2,500 cost plus trade.

The US currently has no industrial capacity to produce permanent rare earth magnets, so it must import them in large quantities, overwhelmingly from China. But does this heavy import dependence pose a threat to American national security?

The US currently has no industrial capacity to produce permanent rare earth magnets, so it must import them in large quantities, overwhelmingly from China. But does this heavy import dependence pose a threat to American national security?

That is a problem for designs that use magnets so go inductive or use brushes as thats the only way out....

ford-will-build-4-factories-in-a-big-electric-vehicle-push

kbd512

Administrator

Registered: 2015-01-02

Posts: 7,858

Re: Fixing Americas car industry

SpaceNut,

An electrical vehicle doesn't need rare Earth (primarily NdFeB) magnets.  Electromagnets produce stronger and controllable magnetic fields anyway.  Even if we did need or want permanent magnets, Niron Magnetics developed Iron Nitride (Fe16N2) permanent magnets in the US, hold all the IP, are an American based and owned company, and the residual magnetic product is more stable over a much wider temperature range.  Again, if we go back to simple technology that's well-understood and well-developed (Lead-acid batteries and electromagnets), then you don't have such absurd cost problems, but it means trading race car performance for practical performance and complexity for race car purchase price and maintenance bills.  Human civilization was built on simple physical principles and simple technology, not gadgetry and whiz-bangery.

I see Niron Magnetics has learned to play the "green game" idiocy by calling their magnets "clean magnets".  While extraction of Iron and Nitrogen is much cleaner than Neodymium, material extraction is material extraction, and none of that is done with "clean" anything, although it's hilarious to watch people goof off over such meaningless nonsense, but also why there isn't much actual "progress".

kbd512

Administrator

Registered: 2015-01-02

Posts: 7,858

Re: Fixing Americas car industry

I did the math on Wal-Mart 12V 100Ah Lithium-ion batteries that cost $550 each and weigh 30 pounds each (29.54lbs to be precise).

Each cell stores 1200Wh of electricity, so an 80% DoD means 960Wh of usable energy per cell.

If it takes 500Wh to cover each mile, then 50 of those batteries provide 48,000Wh of usable stored energy, for a range of 96 miles.

They advertise 2,500 cycles, but they're rated for 2,000 cycles (if you read the fine print below the advertising), which I think is realistically achievable.

Total cost is $27,500 for 50 batteries and total weight for the batteries alone is 1,477 pounds.  At $3 per gallon, that would buy 9,167 gallons of gasoline.  Assuming your car gets 30mpg, then that's 275,000 miles of driving range.  If your car gets 40mpg, as the newer Toyota and Mazda engines are capable of, then a bit over 366,000 miles.

96 miles * 2,000 charge cycles is 192,000 miles.  If you live any place with extreme cold or hot weather, then you'll achieve less range.

When it comes time to replace those batteries, you'll need to pony up another $27,500, or simply force your fellow tax payers to foot the bill using legislation.

It's easy to see why people keep using gasoline and diesel.  The alternative is less than half the range for the same money spent.  We attempt to offset the inability of the technology to deliver by providing tax incentives for purchasing the vehicles and various kick-backs to the manufacturers, but if there were no tax breaks then people who lack unlimited funds but can still count, would not buy battery electronic vehicles.

SpaceNut

Administrator

From: New Hampshire

Registered: 2004-07-22

Posts: 29,433

Re: Fixing Americas car industry

reply for post 110 is a question on the strength lines of flux or guass for simular sized magnetic shapes how do they compare.

reply for post 111 the main issue for batteries that are rechargeable is the charging current unless designed for fast are usually kept down to 1/10th of the amp hr rating which is why people want the faster charging cells. The sacrifice is that they wear out quicker due to the internal heat caused damage. The same holds true for the drain currents for batteries sure its says that you can draw x amp hrs but in reality that number is a max number before internal heating damage.

Its how we are using the battery that is the issue as we are trying to drain it as fast as we can while driving at high speeds while once we have stopped are wanting to be able to jump right back in to do more driving subjecting the batteries to a high recharging current. Batteries are not the same as a gas vehicle but thats what we want it to be...of course the numbers will be different for each manufacturer as well as the chemistry of the batteries for cycle, charging current, battery cycle life ect...

On the note of the 2007 Prius hybrid that I am getting I will report on its use soon as I am still paying payments directly to the garage that owns it. The cost to operate the car will be like you indicated but thats only until you need to replace the battery. Then again a full battery EV use is probably even shorter for the batteries life even with the lower electrical charging price per kw.

Why it's so hard to recycle electric-car batteries video

kbd512

Administrator

Registered: 2015-01-02

Posts: 7,858

Re: Fixing Americas car industry

SpaceNut,

Electromagnets beat permanent magnets for field strength and control, every single time.  Permanent magnets don't consume electricity to produce magnets fields, but that's the only real advantage for motors of the size we're talking about.

At 500Wh/mile, presuming a 60mph highway speed, equates to discharge rate across 50 batteries of only 0.16666Watt-hours/sec.  If that's enough to cause significant overheating, then the batteries are not up to the task of powering a motor vehicle.

Lead-acid batteries are truly recyclable, which is why the batteries must be Lead-acid.

SpaceNut

Administrator

From: New Hampshire

Registered: 2004-07-22

Posts: 29,433

Re: Fixing Americas car industry

I was asking specifically of material to material types for the magnets....
Yes the electromagnet can produce a higher field but its also at a greater battery plus motor cost and a heavier vehicle.

video How rapid charging impacts battery life: Expert Frank Muhlon, head of EV charging infrastructure at ABB, says rapid charging does not have a major impact on the overall life of a battery.

[ABB unveiled an electric-vehicle-charging station that it says provides the fastest capabilities on the market, fully charging any EV in 15 minutes.

Calliban

Member

From: Northern England, UK

Registered: 2019-08-18

Posts: 3,796

Re: Fixing Americas car industry

I was asking specifically of material to material types for the magnets....
Yes the electromagnet can produce a higher field but its also at a greater battery plus motor cost and a heavier vehicle.

video How rapid charging impacts battery life: Expert Frank Muhlon, head of EV charging infrastructure at ABB, says rapid charging does not have a major impact on the overall life of a battery.

[ABB unveiled an electric-vehicle-charging station that it says provides the fastest capabilities on the market, fully charging any EV in 15 minutes.

Fast charging is a terrible idea.  Let's say there are 150million EVs in the US and 10% of them are charging their 90kWh battery at the same time, in 15 minutes.  The total power needed is 5.4billion kW.  Or over 5x total US generating capacity and roughly 10x average power generation.  EVs will only be a tolerable load on the grid if their charging is spread around the clock.  Fast charging EVs will end up killing the grid.

---

"Plan and prepare for every possibility, and you will never act. It is nobler to have courage as we stumble into half the things we fear than to analyse every possible obstacle and begin nothing. Great things are achieved by embracing great dangers."

SpaceNut

Administrator

From: New Hampshire

Registered: 2004-07-22

Posts: 29,433

Re: Fixing Americas car industry

Keeping with the green technology Toyota testing hydrogen combustion engines in race cars

Of course other auto makers are working along similar lines with the use of hydrogen.

The latest hydrogen technology is being tested on a Yaris with a 1.6 liter engine for racing,

that's not very large...

SpaceNut

Administrator

From: New Hampshire

Registered: 2004-07-22

Posts: 29,433

Re: Fixing Americas car industry

Talk about low cost cheap 3,000 us promised vehicles from India and china that actually have come in at 10,000 to 13,000 has lead to this response

SpaceNut,

We can make cheap and reliable cars here in America by sourcing the most efficient engines from available supplies, then using simple / cost effective / low embodied energy welded steel tubing for the chassis with CarbonX fabric wrapped foam panels to keep the elements out.  The tubing could be sprayed with Cerakote and it would last for decades without rusting.  I guess the problem is that there's not much to break on one of these all-manual vehicles, so there's not much money to be made selling spare parts.

All the major manufacturers really seem to want to do is to load up every vehicle with more and more pointless electronic gadgets / sensors / gizmos that cause production prices to skyrocket while making recycling non-profitable or utterly impossible, despite the fact that half of that electronic nonsense won't be functional in 5 years time or less.  It's a rolling arcade game for people who are dazzled by computer games, but it's not a car.

I agree that we have a problem with auto makers vision.

kbd512

Administrator

Registered: 2015-01-02

Posts: 7,858

Re: Fixing Americas car industry

SpaceNut,

I do not need or want a Space Shuttle on wheels.  Teslas have more microchips, orders of magnitude more computing power, more software, more sensors, and thus more real complexity than a Space Shuttle.  It makes no difference at all if anyone is unwilling to admit to that reality.  The only real miracle is that all of that stuff only costs $60,000 and fits into a subcompact car chassis.

Even though it took a standing army 6 months to refurbish a Space Shuttle, it was repairable.  There's nothing remotely repairable for any reasonable cost in a Tesla, much like the Space Shuttle, which is why they simply replace the entire part if it fails.  The Tesla's door handles cost more than my car's engine- something with hundreds of finely machined metal parts in it, yet it's a piece of plastic with a fancy micro controller / sensor and electric motor.  That's just nuts.  The fact that someone thought that kind of nonsense was necessary to wow the crowd or reduce aerodynamic drag by some meaningless figure is what I think is the craziest part.  They gone through several iterations of that design as well.  There's no way of knowing how much engineering time was spent on a silly little door handle.

I think fixation on "perfect solutions" to simple problems has led us into this mess.

Someone needs to tell the engineers, something like the following:

"No, we're not doing that.  I don't care how cool you think it is, the cost of doing that to both us and the consumer isn't worth the perceived benefit.  We're trying to design a practical car that needs to last at least 10 years for the consumer to ever see any cost benefit over a combustion engine."

Similarly, I wish someone would tell the entire automotive industry something like the following:

"A street car doesn't need or benefit from having a thousand horsepower.  Drag racing cars go from zero to sixty in two seconds, not street cars.  The only thing you're ensuring is a higher motor vehicle accident and death rate by giving poorly-trained drivers with more money than common sense, the ability to kill themselves and others faster than ever before, by grossly over-powering these cars."

SpaceNut

Administrator

From: New Hampshire

Registered: 2004-07-22

Posts: 29,433

Re: Fixing Americas car industry

Most can do with less
https://youtu.be/r62vLt4Cdu0
Podcast pedal power or hybrid EV

I figure that this could be made and sold in the 1500 to 3000 dollar range.

PodRide a savvy solution for pedal power in winter

The bicycle’s electric assist motor will reach speeds of 24km/h, a limit Kjellman set to follow local laws. (A cyclist could pedal faster if desired.) The motor can add power and make pedalling easier.

The 42-year-old has made the 11-kilometre commute in the PodRide for a year. The only times he can’t use it are when more than 10 centimetres of snow are on the ground.

SpaceNut

Administrator

From: New Hampshire

Registered: 2004-07-22

Posts: 29,433

Re: Fixing Americas car industry

Several U.S. cities are piloting “universal basic mobility” programs that subsidize bus rides, e-bikes and scooters in the hopes of sparking an economic boost.

100 vulnerable young Bakersfield residents will be selected to participate in a year-long study about how free access to public transit, e-scooters and e-bikes affects their lives. It’s one of several pilots in U.S. cities testing the concept of “ universal basic mobility.”

In Bakersfield, participants will receive free passes for Golden Empire Transit’s local bus lines and five free rides per day on Spin’s shared e-bikes and scooters. An e-bike will allow her to make the 12-mile commute from her home in east Bakersfield to an Aldi grocery store that advertises $18 hourly wages.

In Oakland, up to 500 residents will receive prepaid $300 debit cards for transit and shared mobility services later this month. Pittsburgh plans to launch a year-long study with a 50-person cohort next spring. Los Angeles is preparing a similar grant-funded program focused in south L.A. Where participants will be able spend debit cards on public transit, car share, bikeshare and scooters from multiple operators, including Spin, for as long as the $300 lasts.

The goal of the experiments is to understand how having a minimum guaranteed level of transportation could change outcomes for people who have previously gone without it. Across the U.S., poorer households spend far more on transportation as a percentage of their incomes than more affluent ones.

I have seen how this does improve those that are homeless but does it aid with keeping a job is a different question. Since most jobs require and even greater range of up to an hour typical for commutes one way and even higher for some job types.

tahanson43206

Moderator

Registered: 2018-04-27

Posts: 19,433

Re: Fixing Americas car industry

For SpaceNut re Post #120

Thanks for posting the news of this innovative variation on the Guaranteed Basic Income idea.  Guaranteed Basic Mobility gives a person the means to get to a job, and back home afterward, so the way is open for that person to seek employment.

Because this topic is (primarily) about cars ... I can see an extension of the idea to include basic cars such as the ones that kbd512 has been talking about. The cars for this version of the program would be rudimentary with no frills whatsoever, but sufficient to get a worker from home to a job and back.

Thanks again for posting this interesting news!

(th)

SpaceNut

Administrator

From: New Hampshire

Registered: 2004-07-22

Posts: 29,433

Re: Fixing Americas car industry

Canoo is setting up headquarters in Walmart's hometown, picks Panasonic as battery supplier

SpaceNut

Administrator

From: New Hampshire

Registered: 2004-07-22

Posts: 29,433

Re: Fixing Americas car industry

The auto industry has been crying about the lack of chipc for the new computerized cars so to fix that Ford Could Get Into The Chip Business To Avoid Future Shortages

Ford has announced a partnership with the U.S.-based chip maker GlobalFoundries to develop semiconductors, a deal which the companies claim might eventually lead to joint chip production stateside. This partnership, which the companies refer to as a "strategic collaboration," appears to be in its early stages and is non-binding

kbd512

Administrator

Registered: 2015-01-02

Posts: 7,858

Re: Fixing Americas car industry

SpaceNut,

Alternatively, auto manufacturers could start using commodity microchips from cell phones, which are absurdly powerful, draw very little power, and don't require specialized production lines that are affected by very limited production runs, which drives up the cost of each automotive specialty chip produced.  Most of the specialty chips are simply much older designs.  A single Apple or Samsung cell phone chip could easily control every part of the car and never use a fraction of its total computing power.  Beyond that, they could quit requiring so many microchips to control the various functions of the vehicle.  Everything from motor vehicles to aircraft avionics to ventilators should use general purpose chips that you can walk into any electronics shop and purchase outright by the hundreds of thousands.  There's more extensive testing behind cell phone and laptop chips than any other types, by virtue of the fact that so many are produced and used.

tahanson43206

Moderator

Registered: 2018-04-27

Posts: 19,433

Re: Fixing Americas car industry

For kbd512 .... I like the idea of using Smartphone chips in general...

In the case of the United States, I'm concerned that our capitalist friends have given away vast amounts of our collective expertise to China and other Asian countries, in an effort to reduce costs and to increase profits.  In general, I approve of those decisions, but since they have put the United States in a weakened position with respect to China, I would prefer that we not continue down that path.

The rise of Chairman Xi, and his ambitions for global dominance have pulled the rug out from under our confidence that a global supply chain makes sense.

So, back to your idea .... I'd be in favor of moving to generic chips ** if ** they are made in the United States, or by a close and long term ally such as Great Britain or France or other European Nations that might qualify as reliable long term suppliers.

However, as you most likely know, the chips needed to control large scale electric operations (such as found in a car) are NOT identical to those that control pixels on a screen.  It may well turn out that the CPU in US cars is already a generic chip.  The specialty chips are likely to be the ones that control large currents.

(th)