Air. Shelter. Water. Food.

SpaceNut · 2021-07-10 18:12:07

One of the links in the posts set off my internet browser virus redirect for the Eden project, just giving others an FYI for making sure that the virus software is up to date....

giving the topic a bump as well since I am getting and error for page 10 access....

Calliban · 2021-07-15 04:55:18

A recent post from Ugo Bardi has helped me put into context the energy cost of water on Mars. On Mars, water will be heavily recycled in life support functions. But there will inevitably be losses and we must supply the water in the first place.

On Earth, sea water desalination requires 3.5kWh (12.6MJ) per cubic metre. On Mars, we must instead find underground ice, which will have a temperature of ~200K. The specific heat of ice is 2KJ/Kg.K. To heat 1000Kg of ice to melting point would consume 146MJ of thermal energy. Melting ice is even more energy intensive, requiring 333.55KJ/Kg, or 333.55MJ/m3. Water has specific heat of 4.2KJ/Kg.K. So heating 1m3 of water from 0C to 20C would consume 84MJ.

Adding it all up, the thermal energy cost of a single cubic metre of water on Mars, will be 564MJ - 45 times the energy cost of sea water desalination on Earth. On the plus side, this is low grade thermal energy. The downside is that unless we intend to physically mine the ice using digging equipment, the heat needs to be injected into the ground. To get good heat transfer rates requires large temperature differences. We could use nuclear steam injection, but the energy cost will be high. One option would be to use small, mobile low-temperature reactors to inject steam into production wells. The other option would be to make use of low grade heat from the sun. This would take a lot more time and would require more drilling due to the much lower thermal gradients. But the delay may be acceptable if the project is planning for long-term supply expansion, a decade or more into the future.

Louis presented an interesting idea about 1 year back that involved placing thin sheets of translucent silica aerogel onto the ground to warm the Martian surface beneath. Silica aerogel could also be used to construct solar heating panels. Brine would be heated to temperatures of 0°C and dropped into wells drilled within an ice sheet. As the sheet melts, water level within the wells would gradually rise allowing water to be pumped out using a submersible pump. Some would be heated by running it through the panels and reinjected. The remainder could be pumped to the base through HDPE pipes. At the base, brine would be desalination and highly saline waste water would be pumped back to the production wells, where it would be heated and reinjected.

The panels would be fully drained by gravity when pumping stops. Pumping would cease automatically when panel temperature drops beneath 0°C (brine will freeze at much lower temperatures, allowing a safety margin to freezing). On this basis, they will not be vulnerable to damage caused by freezing. To keep the embodied energy of the panels sufficiently low, we would ideally choose to make them using energy cheap materials. My guess would be a sun-dried clay panel, containing thin PE tubes, with a thin layer of aerogel on top. Water would drain through the panels by gravity into the wells, with submersible pumps feeding water in a header tank, which would feed the panels. Any thoughts?

Last edited by Calliban (2021-07-15 05:11:14)

tahanson43206 · 2021-07-15 06:55:36

For Calliban re #452

SearchTerm:Water production of on Mars
SearchTerm:Energy required to harvest water on Mars starting with ice
SearchTerm:Brine desalination of on Mars

This industry would consume the output of multiple specializations.

At a glance, I see aerogel, clay panels, pipes, control equipment, valves and fittings, drilling equipment, submersible pump and lines for power.

There are probably many others.

The same systems could (presumably) handle intake of ice that might be harvested from passing comets. A wrinkle in that category is that kinetic delivery would add energy to arriving material.

(th)

louis · 2021-07-15 07:23:09

Three potentially helpful technologies:

Waste heat from industrial processes - there may be processes where crushed ice could be perfect for controlling temperature and would eventually result in the ice being melted.

Use mylar solar reflectors to heat ice in containers.

I've seen video of ice being sublimated in a vaccuum. Sublimation could be a useful tool in the context of Mars.

tahanson43206 · 2021-07-15 07:38:44

For Louis re #454

Your observation about sublimation caught my eye, in the context of desalination of brine.

I don't know if vacuum sublimation is useful for separating elements (ie, water molecules from sodium chloride ones) and wonder if you've run across any research that investigates that. Vacuum is in short supply on Earth, but abundant in space. A practical question would be how to draw liberated molecules toward a collection point in a space desalination machine.

The near-vacuum of Mars might be useful in a vacuum-sublimation-desalination process, and the carbon dioxide molecules might even be able to assist in collecting particular molecules, though how that would work is not clear (at least to me).

Nano-technology might be useful in this situation. Machines small enough to be able to nab individual molecules and transport them to a collection point would be useful. They would need energy to operate, so I would assume photons from the Sun would be enlisted for the task. A wash of low frequency radio waves bouncing in a work chamber might allow for "sailing" by the collectors.

(th)

tahanson43206 · 2021-08-23 17:41:22

For Louis .... the report below ** might ** be useful in capturing water molecules floating above heated brine.

https://currently.att.yahoo.com/news/bi … 00465.html

He said that, for several years, Genesis kept the development secret, in part, because it’s easier to show how it works than explain the process of using nanofluid to attract water from the air like a “sponge” and then a “tickle” of energy to ring it dry and start all over again.
“It’s like the Wright brothers trying to tell people that you can have something heavier than air fly, and they think you’re crazy — until they built it,” said Kwast, who is also concerned about whipping up foes.
Now he and the Stuckenbergs are serving glasses of their water from their truck-sized WaterCube at their Tampa headquarters and even adding healthy electrolytes as they prepare for the Sept. 14 public rollout.
“Come on down for a taste,” Kwast urged.
Washington Examiner Videos

This ** sounds ** like a way of pulling water molecules from passing air.

If someone has the time and would care to investigate further than this report, whatever the method is might be useful on Mars as an alternative to previously considered methods of extracting water from (in this case) brine.

(th)

SpaceNut · 2021-08-23 19:28:15

The state change from solid ice (water) on Mars is sublimation since it does not go through a liquid state but to gas as the heat causes the ice to change. The solids from other elements are in suspension and only changes that liquid state for the temperature needed to change to solid as well as to change that evaporation point as its liquids due to the elements. Of course a pressure change along that triple point line effects the speed of that states temperature transition in a chamber becomes relevant as there is not any change here on earth or mars to be had without the use of pumps.

We know that water is locked up in the frozen soils of mars and that staining occurs seasonally.

Void · 2021-09-06 13:37:00

Well, here is a discouraging word(s):
https://scitechdaily.com/greenhouses-pr … radiation/
Quote:

Greenhouses Probably Won’t Work for Growing Crops on Mars Because of Cosmic Radiation

I am not totally sure I trust the article, but it stimulated me to think again about Heliostats, ice, water, and
Martian polar areas.

For the moment, I am going to imagine the North Martian ice cap as the place to model. Other areas may have more
problems, (or not).

https://technologyinarchitecture.com/tr … et%20light.
Quote:

Transparent Aluminium, also known as Aluminium Oxynitride (AION) is composed of Aluminium, Oxygen and Nitrogen,[(AlN)x·(Al2O3)1−x,] Its properties allows it to have ≥80% transparency in visible and ultraviolet light.

I think the last time I saw it's mention on this site was from Robert Dyck.

Now I am modeling the Northern Ice Cap, because it is one of the two major exposed ice areas on Mars. This however might
be adapted to lower latitude ice bodies, but replenishment of ice and it's consirvation will be more of a problem.

I anticipate that the SpaceX base in the Northern plains, will fit in just fine. That gives atmospheric depth to
reception of interplanetary ships. From there possibly some other sub-orbital craft could connect this to the North
polar ice cap. Similarly Hellas would be good to recieve heavy interplanetary ships to the Southern Hemisphere, and
Korolev, and later the South Ice Cap itself.

The elevated areas of the Polar ice caps are where water vapors will condensate naturally. Also they are the

"Lands of the Midnight Sun", once a Martian year.

Having water and rather continuous sunlight can be a good thing for agriculture. Granted the caps are cold. But that
will be good for Fission Nuclear Energy.

I am just going to guess and establish a temporary ~9/1 ratio of opaque surface to window to let light into under
ice lakes.

So, the windows. Alon with water ice under it. The Alon windows, are there to let through 80% of visible light and
U.V. light. They also will prohibit evaporation.

Equipment at high latitudes on Mars, will likelly have to endure a layer of CO2 snow/frost. For the windows, I intend
that in summer without that load, the ice can be kept thin by squirting melt water on them. But they are wanted to
help filter out U.V. light. Hopefully, this allows the U.V. light heat to be captured into the ice.

In the winter, it would be desirable to let the water ice freeze much thicker, so that it can support the CO2 deposits.
Else, if their is CO2 Nuclear heat, it might be prudent to use the CO2 snow/frost as evaporative cooling.

It may seem that if only ~1/10th of the surface to be windows, not that much light would get into the windows. However
I intend that systems of static mirrors and mobile Heliostats will direct more visible light into the windows, and
Maybe/Maybe not more U.V.

So then between Nuclear, and Solar, we have real potential for well lighted water bodies under the ice and windows and
Heliostats. For the winter the Heliostats would need to be poised to survive the CO2 snow/frost.

https://mars.nasa.gov/allaboutmars/extr … 0%20154%20
Quote:

Season
(Northern Hemisphere) Length of
Earth Mars
Spring 93 194
Summer 93 178
Autumn 90 142
Winter 89 154

So, even if you only bothered to do agriculture in the Summer, you would have almost 6 months of ~Midnight Sun, because of
the length of the Martian year.

For Spring, but even more for Fall, you might just grow algae and Cyanobacteria, maybe things that feed on them.
And of course produce Oxygen for ~1/2 of the Martian year from photosynthesis.

Fresh ice water is not that inviting, but you would survive minutes without the needed PPE. Some dependance there
on how deep the water is above you. On the surface of Mars you would have seconds. Lakes on ice caps on Earth can be
unstable. However there would be ways to stablize them on Mars, using the colder temperatures, and manufactured materials
to line the bottoms, and sides, maybe even tops.

In the ice water can be enclosures of warmer water or even air. And they would be well sunlit in the warmer seasons.

I have done many explainations of this in previous posts.

So, if not done at the poles, at least perhaps this done similar in the lower latitudes.

As for food and dust storms, and hunger/starvation. Just grow enough, and you have a very large freezer available, and
it is not likely that vermin would contaminate or ruin frozen food supplies. The thermal inertia of the lakes would
help coping with global dust storms, and if you also had Fission Nuclear, you would have electricity all the time, barring
breakdowns. As for Excess Oxygen, it should be realitively easy to keep tanks of liquid Oxygen, especially when the sun
does not shine.

Done. (See what happens when you let me be here)

SpaceNut · 2021-09-06 15:02:13

The use in space to mitigate exposure will be used and then some others for a mars greenhouse use.
Layers of water, heavy gasses, glaze coatings on the plastic or glass, static electricity or RF fields weak and strong magnetic fields ect.

Growing crops on Mars? Probably not under the naked sun

The radiation was emitted by five cobalt 60 sources, especially 'made' by the RID. The sources were placed above the plants to create a plane radiation field comparable to Mars. The growing plants were radiated constantly for 28 days and harvested afterwards. Creating a plane radiation field is tricky and that is why 5 sources were used to prevent one plant to receive a higher dose than another plant, which would otherwise influence the outcome of the experiment. We only used gamma radiation where on Mars cosmic radiation consists of alpha, beta gamma and UV radiation, so there are still differences, but the dose was about the same as what Mars receives.

Once Wamelink and his team secured radioactive cobalt, the team grew rye and garden cress in two groups: one with typical growing conditions and the other had similar conditions but added gamma radiation. Four weeks after germination, the scientists compared the two groups and saw that the leaves of the group exposed to gamma rays had abnormal shapes and colors. The weights of the plants also differed; the rye plants in the gamma-ray group weighed 48% less than the regular group, and the weight of the garden cress exposed to gamma rays was 32% lower than their unblasted counterparts. Wamelink suspects the weight difference is due to the gamma rays damaging the plants' proteins and DNA.

Void · 2021-09-06 19:09:46

Yes, many tricks to try, I agree.

Done.

louis · 2021-09-07 08:38:13

Of all the issues facing colonists this might well be the biggest. If you can't grow plants well in direct sunlight then that places some limitations on growth or means you might need nuclear power to grow food underground.

But I agree with you - the game is not yet up. We need to see what mitigation measures can be put in place. It seems as though this scientist, like many is beginning from a certain position.

One thing I have wondered about is reflectors - are there reflective surfaces that absorb major radiation, or the bulk of it, but reflect the light spectrum that plants use to derive energy. If so you might be able to design greenhouses that make use of that phenomenon - being shielded above but having light reflected in and bounced around on mirrors at the sides.

I would agree that we might be looking at several decades of indoor, artificially light farming before workable solutions are found.

SpaceNut wrote:

The use in space to mitigate exposure will be used and then some others for a mars greenhouse use.
Layers of water, heavy gasses, glaze coatings on the plastic or glass, static electricity or RF fields weak and strong magnetic fields ect.
Growing crops on Mars? Probably not under the naked sun
The radiation was emitted by five cobalt 60 sources, especially 'made' by the RID. The sources were placed above the plants to create a plane radiation field comparable to Mars. The growing plants were radiated constantly for 28 days and harvested afterwards. Creating a plane radiation field is tricky and that is why 5 sources were used to prevent one plant to receive a higher dose than another plant, which would otherwise influence the outcome of the experiment. We only used gamma radiation where on Mars cosmic radiation consists of alpha, beta gamma and UV radiation, so there are still differences, but the dose was about the same as what Mars receives.
https://insidescience.org/sites/default/files/2021-08/Mars-Plant-Illustration.jpg
Once Wamelink and his team secured radioactive cobalt, the team grew rye and garden cress in two groups: one with typical growing conditions and the other had similar conditions but added gamma radiation. Four weeks after germination, the scientists compared the two groups and saw that the leaves of the group exposed to gamma rays had abnormal shapes and colors. The weights of the plants also differed; the rye plants in the gamma-ray group weighed 48% less than the regular group, and the weight of the garden cress exposed to gamma rays was 32% lower than their unblasted counterparts. Wamelink suspects the weight difference is due to the gamma rays damaging the plants' proteins and DNA.

Void · 2021-09-07 10:50:42

I will respond as I was the one who recently activated this topic.

Great Bear Lake:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Bear_Lake
Great Slave Lake:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Slave_Lake
Greenland:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greenland
Fjord's of Greenland:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category: … _Greenland

Go down a relatively small distance in any of these even in winter, and there is no frost.
So an aspect of the tropical.

These appear to be mostly or entirely "Up Domes":
Domes are so popular for Mars, but they are upside down: (Down is better in many cases).
https://www.bing.com/images/search?q=Ma … BasicHover

They might be OK, if it is an inflatable dome, but for a ceramic dome, turn it upside down,
place it at the top of a cylinder.

In our imagination, we can cut up a starship for our cylinders, and we can make a ceramic
"Down Dome" out of ALON.

So, submerge this device, and fill it partially with air.

Nemo's garden uses inflated "Up Domes" as far as I can see. So the air inside wishes to
rise as it's specific gravity is less than the water the domes are in.

This is not ruled out as per submarine greenhouses in artificial bodies of water on Mars.
However I prefer to explore the cyliinder with a down dome on top of it, made primarily
of Stainless Steel for the Cylinder, and Alon for the "Down Dome Window(s)".

Now lets put this into the Great Bear Lake in Canada.

We would want the ability to move the device up and down in the water column, as per
desire for Sunlight and down to avoid damaging waves. Damaging waves are unlikely in the
Mars situation.

Should winter ice come, and no large snow load goes onto it yet, then the device can come
up to just below the ice layer to catch sunlight. Here we have aquatic crops. However,
if we put a floating raft into the cylinder, it will float on the transion between air
above, and water below. This will be valuable, as if you do shift the position of the
device in the water column, the air bubble within will expand and contract depending on
the water column pressure if you move up and down in it.

Nemo's gardens seem to be able to grow vegtables. They are well protected from space
radiations, buy Earth's Magnetic field, the Atmosphere, and water column.

In the Great Bear lake, ice may also block some U.V.

The difference between the Great Bear Lake, and the location of Nemo's gardens, is that
photon delivery is more concentrated to the Spring/Summer/Fall than it is for Winter.

Similar will occur on Mars for high latitudes, but also the year is almost twice as long.

So, this in part can make up for the attenuated amount of photons, delivered to the high
latitudes of Mars. As per in Alasks, a short growing season still grows many crops well,
in certain Alaska places, as the days are quite long.

For the Great Bear lake, where ice is perrenial, as I believe it at least was true when
I was young, (Near the shores, it melts, but not all ice would melt, we could put a system
of mirrors both static and mobile, to increase the input of good photons to the submiged
greenhouse relative to bad ones. Most bad will be filtered out by various means.

-----

On Mars in my previous post, I spoke of the Northen ice cap, because I wanted to suggest
that that was plausable.

I will modify that. Korolev crator would be a good more "Bite Sized" operation.

It seems to have a natural method to retain moisture which will be beneficial. It also
Is not at such a high altitude or Latatude.

We make lakes near crator rims. We line the bottoms of the lakes with thermally insulating
regolith. We hope to use methods for the Great Bear Lake, but we add Alon windows in some
of the surface of the ice. Here we shine concentrated light through. The greenhouses
will be below these windows. As for the ice not covered with ALON windows, we have
Heliostats and mirrors, that intercept much of the light, and so that ice becomes even
colder from sunshine, as those photons are be re-directed into the Alon windows.

I do favor including nuclear reactors, as they can use the underwater greenhouses as
radiators. Much of the heat from solar energy and Nuclear will dissapate into the ice water
lakes.

Here again submerged reactors will be rather safe as water will absorb the radiation that
leaks out. As for spills, I should hope that humans will have learned to not construct
reactors that are not safe.

However if you have many ice covered lakes, and one does get contaminated, you remove the above
ice equipment and let it freeze more, possibly solid.

-----

There may be an advantage to being at higher latitudes, as light passing to your receivers, would
be better filtered, (Maybe), by passing more sideways through the atmopshere. This would
help with solar flairs, Maybe).

-----

I read an article today that Kimbal and Elon Musk, may use solar cells and LED's at first to grow
crops. What I suggested above would eventually be another large scale way to grow crops.

And it would be parks, and underwater swimming pools warmed up, of course.

So, answers quite a few needs.

Done.

By the way, "The Great and Powerful Wizard of Robert Zubrin", has suggested
nuclear powered lakes in Korolev_(Martian_crater)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Korolev_(Martian_crater)

If that works, imagine how much "Farm Land" could be constructed on Mars.

I believe that there is at least enough to cover the Martian surface with 115 feet,
(35.052 Meters) of water, (At least). More ice is much deeper buried in fossil ice
caps, at least at the North Pole.

And by the way, 33 feet of water on Earth is ~=1 Bar or one Atmosphere. 115 feet, (35.052 Meters) of water, is >= to one Bar, or 1 Earth atmosphere of pressure. And of course you might only cover 1/2 to 1/3 of Mars Surface with
ice covered bodies of water, so, plenty for it.

Now Done.

Last edited by Void (2021-09-07 11:03:14)

SpaceNut · 2021-09-07 19:51:03

Growing under ground is dependent on thermal isolation from conduction through the ground to depth. Once we know how deep then its about heat loss through the chamber walls that seal off leakage of internal atmosphere which the food growth will occur within.

Is an epoxy style thickly applied product to enough to do the job is the question or will we need something different?

Next comes the lighting calculation that will be required in this chamber to give proper levels for the plant types that we will want to eat.
LED Strip Grow Light - 120 Volt - High Output (SMD-5050) - 148 Feet fb07c3c6-7708-5ea1-bf4c-e807bb82d082__94027.1619115506.jpg?c=2

Each spool features a repeating pattern of Red (660-665nm) and Blue (450-455nm) LED lights. Our 120V LED high output LED grow lights are available in 148' spools that can be cut and customized and are compatible with our full range of 120V LED strip light accessories.

Power Consumption: 1.8 Watts/ft or approximate 270 watts per string of them on the spool.
https://www.birddogdistributing.com/con … p-5050.pdf

Once you have the chambers size calculations then its roughing out the total energy numbers for each of the issues.
https://spicytrio.com/how-big-of-a-gree … -a-family/

we recommend between 80-100 square feet per person.
best vegetables to grow in your greenhouse to feed your family most efficiently:
Onions, Carrots, Potatoes, Cucumbers, Garlic, Lettuce, Peppers
Some of the most popular vine fruits are:
Grapes, Watermelon, Kiwi, Passion fruit

https://morningchores.com/vegetable-garden-size/

The truth is, there is no single correct answer when it comes to deciding vegetable garden size. Some sources say 100 square feet per person is the magic number, but that can’t be right because every family has different needs and preferences when it comes to food. Also, plants vary in size, so it depends on what vegetables you grow.

How Many Vegetables to Plant?
Enter your family size:
Crops Harvest Needed (lbs) Row Length (ft) Plants Needed
Artichoke 12 24 6
Asparagus 8 27 18
Basil 2 5 5
Lima Beans (bush) 12 48 144
Lima Beans (pole) 12 24 18
Snap Beans (bush) 60 50 150
Snap Beans (pole) 60 40 80
Soy Beans    60 120 144
Beets 14 10 60
Bok Choy 12 10 15
Broccoli 32 32 22
Brussel Sprouts 24 32 22
Cabbage 60 40 27
Carrots 40 40 48
Cauliflower 36 36 24
Celery 16 27 41
Cilantro 1 2 3
Collards 8 8 8
Corn    100 125 94
Cucumbers    32 27 14
Dill    1 2 2
Eggplant 16 16 10
Fennel 4 5 5
Garlic 4 16 32
Jerusalem Artichoke 6 4 3
Kale 4 4 4
Kohlrabi 6 8 16
Leek    4 9 27
Lettuce 24 48 42
Melons 24 22 7
Mustard 4 8 16
Okra 4 4 3
Onions 32 32 96
Parsley 1 4 6
Parsnip 12 12 36
Peas    12 30 90
Peppers 12 20 15
Potatoes 100 100 100
Pumpkins 40 40 12
Radish 8 20 60
Rhubarb 16 16 48
Rutabaga 6 5 10
Spinach 12 30 30
Summer Squash 40 27 14
Winter Squash 24 24 9
Strawberry 52 38 23
Sweet Potatoes 12 12 11
Swiss Chard 12 15 18
Tomatoes 96 96 39
Cherry Tomatoes 68 46 35
Turnips 20 27 54
Watermelons 48 24 5

Void · 2021-09-08 11:27:15

Well, I see you are looking into artificial light methods. That's OK, I will get
back to sunlight methods later.

I should think that one possible method would be to topple a starship carefully.
The cover it with mud/regolith, then lock the moisture in with a moisture barrier.
Then more dry regolith over that to protect the vapor barrier.

The reason for the frozen mud roman arch, is so that it can bear most of the
weight if the starship de-pressurized. We don't want it to collapse into a crushed
Stael Can.

Having this then you have to keep the interior relatively cold so as to not melt
the mud arch. However you can use all of the space for human shelter and for
"Shipping Containers" such as Kimbal Musk does.

At least that is one way.

Indoor Farming, Kimbal Musk:
https://www.businessinsider.com/kimbal- … ty-2016-12
https://harvestfinder.net/kimbal-musk-d … %201%2C100.

I think that although it is important to do what you have done, to show an approximation of what is needed.

If possible it would be good to plan to grow and excess of food, as Mars will easily provide ways to freeze the excess, or freeze dry it.

I would think that both solar and nuclear power would be available as options, if NASA agrees. Nuclear would of course help a lot in a global dust storm, as would
frozen and freeze dried foods.

I will eventually return to "Lake Farms", and I might have something different than that, but lets go ahead with the indoor
LED farming until you and the members get tired of it.

Done

Void · 2021-09-08 11:43:18

This video by Peter Zeihan could apply to Martian agriculture, I will post it in another place where Earth agriculture can be considered.

"Index» Not So Free Chat» Peter Zeihan again:"

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rnp_MYXWr4k

Perhaps solutions for Mars could help for Earth.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2021-09-08 11:46:30)

Mars_B4_Moon · 2021-09-09 04:28:57

I fear the ISS might soon teach us a lot about workplace hazards and other safety issues in space

"Astronauts smell smoke, burning on Russia's ISS module"

https://www.spacedaily.com/reports/Astr … e_999.html

A smoke alarm sounded Thursday in Russia's segment of the International Space Station (ISS) and astronauts smelled "burning" on board, Russia's space agency and NASA said.

I guess most nations before they even put people in space would have some kind of an idea how to fight a fire in a space colony station, from their work on Submarines, Aircraft and Ships when it comes to safety. You can set up drills and procedure for Chemical and Fire safety is paramount aboard naval vessels, fast-acting solutions, effective fire protection for both surface vessels, aicraft and submarines, it is imperative that the ship's crew be able to control leak or electric fault or fight an "on-board" fire and to retain the ship's effectiveness ot stop the loss of an entire Bio-Dome space colony. One reason fires on ships can be bad is the types of materials used on ships, and their flammability. From the obvious fuels and lubricating oils for machinery that ignite to the conspicuous heat-producing bacteria in waste, the gaseous and methanes and sewage systems on an underway vessel. All these can ignite or provide fuel for the runaway explosive fires. According to research, fire outbreaks are among the most frequent causes of accidents out at sea, in parallel with grounding, collision, and grazing contact, a fire accident kills men on Navy ships it can also kill people in space. Apollo 1's crew—Virgil I. "Gus" Grissom, Edward H. White and Roger B. Chaffee— were killed when a fire erupted in their capsule during testing ont he ground. On the sea every seventh fire outbreak on a ship culminated in the loss of life, and it was established that the most frequent outcome from a fire was damage to the vessel and inability to proceed with the journey. A Biodome Space colony might even need a life boat car, escape shuttles at each deck so that people might escape to another nearby Dome and seek refuge, it would be logical that every person on a colony is trained as a fire fighter and every person has fire fighting duty.

Last edited by Mars_B4_Moon (2021-09-09 04:44:31)

Calliban · 2021-09-09 05:43:51

I have always been fascinated by Void's ice covered ponds. We have talked at length in the past about the use of such ponds to grow hardy aquatic plants like hydrilla. One way to do this would be to build a pond with a depth of at least a few metres and put a thin layer of translucent silica aerogel at a depth of ~1m. The water above the aerogel layer will freeze, whilst the water beneath would absorb sunlight and would be insulated by both the ice and aerogel. The weight of tge ice will provide hydrostatic pressure needed to keep oxygen dissolved in the water.

The pond would sit under a transparent plastic or glass dome, which would be pressurised to a few mbar. This would prevent sublimation of the ice and most importantly, prevent dust contamination of the ice, which would otherwise ruin its transparency. To avoid the need for digging, preexisting depressions should be used and lined with polyethylene to prevent salt contamination of the water.

The main thing that stands in the way of this idea is the large quantities of water it would require. A pond covering 1 acre, with a depth of 3m, would need some 12,000 tonnes of water. Presumably, this would need to be mined as ice and then melted within the pond. Heating 1kg ice from -80°C and melting it, will consume about 500KJ thermal energy. Melting 12,000 tonnes of ice, would consume 6TJ of energy. That is 1667MWh of heat. It would be beneficial to use passive solar heat to do this, especially if your ponds are located away from the base nuclear reactor. It would be interesting to carry out some thermal calculations to determine the limits of the possible with this idea.

The hydrilla could be incorporated as a component in human food, and could be fodda for animals, fish or mushroom production. It could also be useful for fuel production. The pond will produce excess oxygen, which could be liquefied. The hydrilla could be fed into an anaerobic digester, which would yield methane. This provides an agricultural option for producing rocket propellant.

Microalgae have some advantages on Mars I think, in terms of building productive systems capable of producing biomass, with a minimum of initial resources. One can grow microalgae by pumping the water and suspended algae through thin plastic or glass pipes or panels during day time. At night, when temperatures drop, all liquids can be drained into an insulated tank. The next day, as temperatures climb back above freezing, the algae solution them flows back into the pipes. This should minimise the amount of supplementary heating needed per unit of biomass. Algae can be separated by spinning the mixture in a centrifuge.

Last edited by Calliban (2021-09-09 06:41:28)

Void · 2021-09-09 10:10:37

Well, I think I need to address posts from Spacenut, Mars_B4_Moon, and Calliban.

I am happy that we can have discussions.

Spacenut,

I last left you with a starship on it's side, and with a frozen mud arch. I think
we could do better.
-Starship shaped ditch;
-Line this with bricks;
-Tip Starship on it's side into the ditch;
-Make a brick arch over the starship, connected to the bricks in the ditch;
-I have thought of the notion of making one big brick by the method of Urea, and microbes, howeer, I suggest many small bricks;
-Then cover the arch with dry regolith.
-This method would use the tensile strength of the Starship, and also the combined compressive streangh of the starship
along with the compressive strength of the brick arch. The interior could be heated to comfort.

Urea bricks:
https://www.themarysue.com/astronaut-pee-bricks/

I would think that Urea would be manufactured chemically. I think it would be a fertalizer as well, so that may be wanted.

---------

Mars_B4_Moon

Some fires will benefit from having large volumes of water available. Also, compressed or liquid CO2.
Training would be important.

Having extra space where you can retrete to in an emergency would be important.

Also having reserves of food, Oxygen, and water of course, and sanitation alternatives. In this case, it
would be to plan ahead to have excess reserves of things to satify needs, in case a section of habitation and
production is lost.

-------

All,

I have been thinking of diving bells that would be like cylinders, but with a bowl shaped window at the top end,
to let light in. Probably in part that window being of Alon. This would be floating in a body of water, likely
covered with ice, which will be protected by Alon windows, where light is to be let in, and also protected by
a system of heliostats which will shade the exposed ice. The Heliostat system would as much as possible, practical,
or desired intercept sunshine which would hit the ice and warm it. Then to reflect it as many times as needed
to enter the body of water through the Alon windows.

To be sure you understand, the light would mostly be from reflection from heliostat mirrors, or stationary mirrors.
It would pass through the Alon windows embedded in the ice in places, and then likely pass through a ice layer, and
then through water, and then through the bowl shaped Alon windows into the diving bells.

Diving bells, likely have an air bubble at the top. In order to pressurize this air bubble, the depth of the bubble
into the diving bell from the top, will need to be ~33 feet for ~330 mBar, and ~100 feet for 1000 mBar. However those
numbers are not quite right, because you have the column of water and ice above the bowl shaped window on the diving
bell. So it would be more.

A raft may be placed in the diving bell at the point where air meets water. A garden and/or habitation there.
Or else if you want to do aquiculture, you may.

Further Tricks:
-I think Robert Dyck has indicated that ~100 mBars is the low limit of pressure typically needed for Vascular
Garden Plants.

That requires ~10 feet of air bubble + water column above the bowl window.

That is not habitable for humans, but it may be possible to move the diving bell up and down in the lake so,
if you brought it down, you could increase the air pressure in the bubble, but decrease the bubble size.

That is if you want to make whimpy diving bells.

Another alternative, if you want maximum lighting on the plants would be to put a loft near the window.
Then plant the garden under 333 mBar, then move the diving bell up in the water column. If you don't go
whimpy with the diving bell, then you may do much more. The insides of the diving bells would be shiny, so
a lot of light would go fairly far down, in them. 100 feet is a lot. 33 not to bad.

So you could have a diving bell with 1000 mBar pressure inside of it, and a loft up towards a window or garden.

If the window were to leak, then the interior bubble would shrink, and it is likely that bubbles would be seen
emitted from the window. A human may get to relative safety by simply dropping down a pole, perhaps, and entering
the water below, or under a raft, if a raft is in use.

I do think that the use of fission nuclear ractors is a good idea as a supplement, as the diving bells could
be used as radiators and condensers. The condensate running down the walls would be useful.

It is likely that the diving bells will be surrounded by "Ice Water". That is not a mandate.

I am going to do my next post soon about Korolev Crater, in answer primarily to Calliban.

Probably very soon.....

Done.

Void · 2021-09-09 10:40:33

Permafrost Tunnels:
https://www.smithsonianmag.com/science- … 180974804/

Permafrost on Mars and Earth:
https://earthobservatory.nasa.gov/image … -and-earth

Cold springs on Mars and Earth:
https://agupubs.onlinelibrary.wiley.com … 00JE001436

Permafrost on Mars:
https://link.springer.com/chapter/10.10 … -5418-2_38
Quote:

Permafrost exists at all latitudes on Mars and subsurface ice probably is abundant. The temperatures and pressures characteristic of each location or region determine, to a large extent, the depth and distribution of permafrost. Together with ground water salinity, they control the ice content, strength and deformation characteristics, in addition to other physical and electrical properties of local permafrost. Calculations based on the Viking Mission Data indicate that permafrost thicknesses range from about 3.5 km at the equator to approximately 8 km in the polar regions. The depths to the bottom of Martian permafrost are more than three times the depth characteristic of permafrost in terrestrial polar locations.

Permafrost lakes on Earth:
https://theconversation.com/collapsing- … ams-128519
Quote:

Lakes across this terrain often exist because of the impermeable nature of the permafrost around and below these lakes. Some of this permafrost has existed here since the last ice age.

Permafrost can be Dry, icy regolith, or just plain ice. We know it is very thick on Mars, so with care, in many places,
it may not be necessary to line the bottoms of lakes, maybe desirable in some cases however.

------

Now about Korolev Crator:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Korolev_(Martian_crater)

Here is a picture: (Perhaps someone can post it to be properly encased, as a favor to me, I am not currently able).
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Korolev_( … crater.jpg
File:Perspective_view_of_Korolev_crater.jpg
Quote:

Korolev is an ice-filled impact crater in the Mare Boreum quadrangle of Mars, located at 73° north latitude and 165° east longitude. It is 81.4 kilometres (50.6 mi) in diameter[1] and contains about 2,200 cubic kilometres (530 cu mi) of water ice, comparable in volume to Great Bear Lake in northern Canada.[2] The crater was named after Sergei Korolev (1907–1966), the head Soviet rocket engineer and designer during the Space Race in the 1950s and 1960s.[2]
Korolev crater is located on the Planum Boreum, the northern polar plain which surrounds the north polar ice cap, near the Olympia Undae dune field. The crater rim rises about 2 kilometres (1.2 mi) above the surrounding plains. The crater floor lies about 2 kilometres (1.2 mi) below the rim, and is covered by a 1.8 kilometres (1.1 mi) deep central mound of permanent water ice, up to 60 kilometres (37 mi) in diameter.[2]

So, that is some real estate:
Now look at the inner rim: Part is dry, part is icy. I assume that the icy part faces the North pole.
And so the "Dry" part should face south.

Continued......

Korolev has even been talked about by Robert Zubrin. He sees nuclear fission as the
way to go. I do not object, but I also very much like solar.

Korolev could provide some dry permafrost, icy regolith permafrost, and ice permafrost.
A whole lot of it.

The south facing inner rim of Korolev crator is likely a good place for solar power
of many types. Solar pannels could likely more or less lay on the ground due to natural
ground tilt.

Arrays of heliostats could target the icy body down below, or what might be built on
top of it by humans.

In fact if targeting a power plant, somewhere near the junction of the ice body and the
regolith, lasers could shine into the ice body, to generate water flows. Might need
some extra tricks, but water can flow on Mars, provided there is heat, and the streams
are ice covered. So, then you could flow water into lakes below the ice cliffs that I
think I see. Of course you would want to beware of land slides. So perhaps water into
those lakes, and then pump it uphill into impoundments created in the regolith, where
it would be out of reach of landslides, from either ice cliffs, or the crater rim.

For whatever reason, permafrost tunnels should be possible:
https://www.erdc.usace.army.mil/CRREL/P … e%20tunnel.
https://www.military.com/video/inside-m … st-tunnels

Seems it could be useful for equipment to protect, and as temporary emergency shelter for humans.

I think that is a lot to digest.

I will stop for now.

But I will say that the potentials are very large, and agricultural possibilities among them. Various methods various crops.

Of course this would require that after SpaceX sets up their initial base, then they would begin to expand to Korolev.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2021-09-09 10:57:47)

Oldfart1939 · 2021-09-09 11:04:16

I just would like to revisit the earlier thread here about growing plants on Mars being affected by Cosmic Rays, versus the experiment that was conducted using radioactive Cobalt as a source of gamma radiation.
When I read the comments about this experiment, I developed an itch in the back of my brain that this wasn't a reasonable experiment, so I made a note to myself to check things out. I was quite interested in Cosmic Radiation earlier in my career, so I decided to do a bit of research.

Cosmic Rays are NOT a form of electromagnetic radiation, but are particles (atomic nuclei) travelling at relativistic velocities.

Gamma Rays are a form of electromagnetic radiation and photons are involved, not truly particles.

On the basis of this information, I decided that the experiment regarding plant growth was fatally flawed in it's interpretation. Plants have been successfully grown aboard the ISS, which is subjected to Cosmic rays, although somewhat attenuated intensity.

Last edited by Oldfart1939 (2021-09-09 15:17:58)

Void · 2021-09-09 14:13:30

Your effort is appreciated by me.

I encounter so many articles, that speak of how Mars cannot be done. Generally,
the thing seems to be an effort to stifle. Comes from people who are not friendly to what we want.

Not sure why the go to the effort.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2021-09-09 14:13:41)

Void · 2021-09-09 14:16:49

OF1939,

If you would like me to get off your topic, I only need to be asked.

------
Using craters as lakes, is perhaps a thing that can be expanded on Mars.

There can be many reasons. One may be that at the center of some craters
might be a remnant of the impactor, which may have valuable substances in
it.

Having a lake above that spot, in my opinion, may make access to any such
minerals easier, at least in some cases.

Done

Void · 2021-09-09 14:21:19

Atmospheric Separations:

For Korolev, I am thinking that it would be nice to make use of cold temperatures, and process Martian atmosphere. You might first liquify most of the CO2. That could be stored in tanks or used immediately.

Where I am open to fission reactors, obviously one thing to do with it would be to
vent it through a turbine to atmosphere, after being heated by some process.
Possibly the stored heat in the lake water, or put through a nuclear reactor.

So, a bit like a liquid air battery. I know some members have speculated on actually processing CO2 Snow/Frost, so that may be compatible with such a process
as well.

So the first action was to create liquid CO2, and a remnant mix. Some gasses
could be dissolved in the liquid CO2. There could be Nitrogen, Argon, O2, and CO.

Antius, a member not now active, suggested that a centrifuge could get out such
dissolved gasses. Of course I have been interested in the tiny amount of O2 and CO in the Martian atmosphere. If a centrifuge could do that and it did not explode, as the O2 and CO would be mixed together, then that mix could be put into the lake waters to promote chemosynthesis of microbes.

Back to this. I cannot compose live on the web site because my computer becomes
bogged down.

So, I will try to finish the post this way with a copy and paste.

So, that is what could be done with the Liquified CO2 and disolved gasses in it.

As for the non-liquified remnant, that should be of N2, Argon, and maybe some O2
and CO.

That can be injected into the lake waters and any O2 and CO would largely be consumed
by micobes in chemosnthesis. Of course care has to be taken with CO as it is toxic.

It would also be sensible to promote chemosynthesis with the addition of O2, H2, and
Methane deliberately produced from machines using energy. You want that capability
for rockets, trucks, etc. Stored chemical energy to convert to electricity is also
a purpose to consider.

Nitrogen will be consumed in a small part by microbes. After that you may then have
a mixture of Nitrogen and Argon which would build up until it came out of solution into
bubbles in the water. Adding Oxygen would be an option and then you have "Air".
Or else you could separate the Nitrogen and Argon. One use for Argon could be for
ion rockets.

So, I think the above could be compatible with solar and nuclear processes in ice
covered lakes.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2021-09-09 14:37:07)

Void · 2021-09-09 18:25:29

I want a light scoop(s):
Sydney Opera House.
-A cross between an A-Frame, a dome or iglo, and a cone, with Roman Arch properties.
https://travel.sygic.com/en/poi/sydney- … -poi:21984
~The right shape.

So, in a prior post, I indicated that I think the south facing inner rim of higher
latitude craters have predictable "Hot Spots". That is they have more sunlight than
the rest of the inner rim. They also concentrate their photon receptions during
the sunny seasons, particularly "Summer".

There are two situations where I can see the use of, (Lets Call the Sidney Receivers),
will allow Heliostat sets to pass light to such a receptor.

Here strangely is a view that shows ~where I would want the windows.
https://www.getyourguide.com/sydney-l20 … rtner=true

------
A little talk about Lichens in simulated Mars conditions.
Basically it has to do with a plant needing water, and also sufficient neutricious
Photons, relative to a need to be shielded from toxic photons, and as OF1939 has
recently educated me GCR.

In the simulations which I expect are not completely accurate for Mars, Lichen adapted
and grew if in cracks in rock or soil. Full exposure killed them or stopped them
from growing. I suspect that the cracks being the last of the surface to warm up also
get extra humidity in the morning, which will help the Lichen as it can pull water
out of the air as I understand ~70% to 100% RH.

Here is a supporting link:
https://encyclopediaofastrobiology.org/ … atmosphere

------

So, the game on Mars to farm is not to reduce toxic effects down to zero, but below the
tolerance level of the plants and the structures that are built to assist them.

The Sydney Recievers that would be used in Korolev Crater, would point their windows North.

The "Pointer" of the structure would point South, then.

Leaving out the windows for now, the "Shell" could be thin materials, and a vapor emitter,
could be presented to it's outside, to make a layer of ice, several, one over another.
Fibers could be added on the discovered proper occasions. At the end snow might be added
on top. However this might get crushed into ice over time by winter CO2 ice deposition.
Don't know. It is possible that thermal insulation would be applied also to the inside
of the structure, and then for sure a reflective "Mirror" coating.

I mentioned two types of Heliostats that could shine on these "Sydney Receptors".

Of course the ones on the south facing inner wall of the crater. But they are distant.

If too many converged on a receptor at one time, it might damage it.

So, a set of more local Heliostats to be North of the receiver, and to shine light into it.
The inner roof of the receptor then mirror, then to shine the light down into the ice.

The needed pressure to "Clean" the ice would be not that much above Martian ambient.

Ice is cloudy if bubbles and cracks are in it. The air pressure inside the receptor, at
max would be just that much to inhibit water boil, which is not that much at 0 degC.
The amount of dissolved gasses should be minimal per "Henrey's Laws".
https://byjus.com/chemistry/henrys-law/ … 2%80%98%29.

In fact we could
almost completely degas some water, and then present it to the top of the water column,
and let it freeze. It should be a pretty good ice window. This could be conveniently
repeated as needed.

So, now if you have such Sydney Receivers, you may pass as much light as the structure
and the ice will tolerate.

As for toxic radiations and GCR, you have ice and snow intercepting it from south and
above. Some GCR will be blocked by the sun facing north crater rim. Of course Mars
itself blocks all that would come from the other side of the planet, except Neutrino's.
But we don't care about Neutrino's.

We may perhaps detoxify the light input and also fight attenuation, buy using carful
solar concentration techniques.

So, these portals under the Sydney Receivers, would work with the Alon Bowl shaped
tops of the diving bells and pressurized chambers presented to the light stream(s)
entering the lakes.

And if this can be done just for Korolev, then lots of agriculture.

I think I am fading. Probably have to come back some more.

Done for now.

Last edited by Void (2021-09-09 18:29:53)

Void · 2021-09-10 11:27:54

I have revisions for the "Light Scoop".

First, I think the thing to do is have a flat inflatable balloon that can be layed down
on top of the ice and quickly inflated with clean degassed water, and allowed to freeze.

Then a light scoop would be constructed above it, with no windows. Rather an open
apature.

The structure could start with a balloon of the shape for the light scoop, and will
serve as a mold.

Water vapor would be sprayed on the south facing surfaces, but not the north where
the apature sould be. Fibers and strengtheners can be addad as it is created.

In addition some kind of tubing embedded in the ice. This will be to work with a
fluid such as CO2 or Ammonia + (Water ?). Maybe something else. This light scoop
may double as a radiator.

Ideally all surfaces when it is done will be covered in a reflective coating, or film.

The inflatable balloon for spraying on vapors will be removed and hopefull reused to
make other ones.

The balloon ice window will remain.

It is possible that a transparent film with U.V. protection may be placed over the
balloon ice window, and this could be replaced periodically as needed. It would
not be fastened very much, and would simply lie over the balloon ice window.

-------

Concern will be needed for the weight of the structure. Perhaps floats will have to be
placed in the water below the walls.

This plan reduces the amount of materials other than ice you need for construction, but
there still will be the desire for fibers of some kind, tubing, reflective films, and
of course the Heliostats on top of the ice and machinery to connect to the tubing,
below the ice.

So this is a solar collector and perhaps part of a heat engine which will scoop photons,
and therefore heat, into the lake, and will also, we hope be the condenser part of
a heat engine that rejects heat from the lake to the surface and the sky, and we
hope that electricity could be generated.

This should be quite good for Korolev, and also many cold high latitude locations on
Mars.

It should be well suited to utilize the midnight sun effect to collect energy and also
foster agriculture, and to also use the very low temperatures that may be expected.

-----

I actually think some version of this could be done on large ice bodies on Earth,
provided they are stable. The northern interior of Greenland comes to mind, and
also Antarctica, in the deep interior.

If these lakes are on top of water ice, particularly on Earth, there can be concern
for the lake water falling into a crack and the lake draining down.

For Mars, the ice is colder and more stable per that risk. There should be less
Earthquake action on Mars. However, methods could be implemented to reduce the risk.

-Try to use 0 degC water or not much warmer. (Remember the farming would more occur
in warm water enclosures floating in that water, or on stilts on the bottom.

Place regolith on the bottom of the lake. This would beth serve as an insulator, and
alson weight the ice down. The ice unless "Dirty" will be lighter than the water.

-It may be possible to attach insulating tiles to the bottom of the lake. You would
just press them to the bottom, and they should freeze to it. This will help keep
the ice below the tiles from warming up. Then if a leak does form, the ice being
cold may very likely freeze any intruding liquid water and plug the crack.

*There can be other tricks, many of them.

------

This should rattle some cages:

The idea of colonizing the interior or Greenland or Antarctica may really annoy some,
but if you settled people there, they would create organic waste. That could be dumped
on the ice, perhaps in caverns so that it does not change the albedo. That would be
the entoomment of much Carbon, as long as the ice can be kept stable.

Recovery of nutrients may be a desire prior to entoomment.

Putting the light scoops there may actually make more surface area for cooling. It may
be possible to net Cool the ice masses with this. This could be important for Greenland.
I believe that Antarctica is expected to accumulate ice in the future.

------
As for both Mars and Earth, I think it could be a better thing that most people
only lived on the ice bodies during the warmer seasons, and had a place elsewhere to winter over on. But it might be possible to make winters suitable for people.
It remains to be seen.

Done

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