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#1 2021-07-30 12:30:58

Void
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Registered: 2011-12-29
Posts: 3,926

World Rings

If I had said "Ring World" that would be something else.

This has come from this topic by Spacenut:
Index» Terraformation» cooling venus with solar energy beamed blind

Posts #16-#19 may be of value as a reference in that topic.

Isaac Arthur has done a video on the topic of "Colonizing Neptune".
https://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=is … &FORM=VIRE

I believe it includes a ring system, of his thinking.

The rings I am interested in could be somewhat different.

There are many worlds where we might consider rings.
Venus will be a very hard one to do.
Mars might be better, as it has Phobos and Demos, and even materials from Mars itself, will be favored due to a smaller gravity well, and thinner atmosphere.
I am very interested in 16 Psyche.  I think to get there, we need Mars set up with or without a orbital ring.

I will get back to this later.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2021-07-30 12:37:59)


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#2 2021-07-31 10:00:17

Void
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Registered: 2011-12-29
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Re: World Rings

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I like this "Skyhook" video.
https://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=10 … ORM=WRVORC
I especially like the conversation about Phobos super tether.  It indicates that available in the momentum of Phobos is
energy that can delay our need to make a ring around Mars.


Isaac Arthur is often good to listen to.
https://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=Up … ORM=WRVORC

For those of the membership and readership who do not sit well and comfortable with fantastical thinking, I offer a attempt
at justification for this material, to say that where we may more easily tollerate things that seem currently plausable as
emergent in a shorter time, it could be good to try very hard to imagine the path of probibility through time.  That which
may be a aproximate measurement of what could emerge very far down the road.  Having measurements like this we can better
understand how we can invest efforts in the now and near future, to hope to gain the best probaility of the best profit.

Certainty will require many reviews of projections as we move through time and new discoveries occur.

So, I am appoaching a moment where I think that access to the asteroid belt may be premature.

If we have access to the Moon, Phobos, Demos, and Mars, that is quite a lot along with Earth.  And then very likely NEO's.

While eventually we may construct rings and tethers for asteroids, I begin to wonder if we can have plenty with the list I
have in the above sentences?

Weid stuff...We can delay a Martian ring because of the intertia of Phobos.  In fact, I think that we could project a very
large magnetic field from Phobos, and both add inertia to the orbit of Phobos, and protect the atmosphere of Mars by
throttling it, to sail Phobis on the solar wind.  The Martian ring can wait until it is convenient and desired.

Tethers from Phobos may be practicle.

May I suggest the "Swing or Pendulum Skyhook"?  Not necessarily the best, but maybe another option not so far as I understand
mentioned.  It is something to cosider, along with a rocket on a tether, that can hover to a target to capture.

Ahh...Long ago, in the morning, cartoons....

https://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=li … &FORM=VIRE

So, now what about a Moon Ring?  This is conversation, I can talk about it.

Would it be Equatorial, or a Halo Orbit?

If you have looked at the previous materials including references, we may have options to spin a ring with solar photons, or
solar wind.  What about spining it as the rotor to the Moons probable stator.  Some parts of the Moon may be magnetic, so,
might we think to induce magnetic fields into its magnetic materials, and spin the magnetic field of the rotor, to produce
ring spin?

If we could could we with a spinning ring and tethers of verious kinds, lift massive amounts of Lunar mass to orbit to the
ring.  Would this possibly be a good place for humans to expand to?

More organic materials could come from Phobos, Demos, Mars, and perhaps NEO's.

I'm resting now.  That was quite a lot.

Done....


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#3 2021-08-02 19:26:32

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Re: World Rings

I'm really into rings and wheels, especially for the Moon smile

https://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=sp … 6pc%3dU531

I've been around a while.  That's not bad, that song.  Not at all, but a long time ago.

In space, if you are careful you can keep it from coming down for a long time, whatever down is.

I will continue.....


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#4 2021-08-02 21:19:57

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Re: World Rings

https://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=be … 6pc%3dU531

I am quite surprised about this.  Still worth it to me to discover.

The masculine must now emerge.  I don't think most understand that.

The glorious feminine, has passed too far.  Balance must be restored.  Nobody
gets a free ride forever.  Not me, not you.

But, in case you think that somehow I have magical powers for this,
no, I only intend to read the weather,  I do not make it.


But you know, I am either correct or false.  And so what?

Rings around the Moon.  I love it.

Now is the human race up for it?

Well those who live to see may know.

Ya, rings around the Moon.  I am very aware of many things.

But I seek the higher road, I think that is my asperation.

Goodnight smile

Done....Sort of.


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#5 2021-08-03 14:07:44

Void
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Re: World Rings

This could be useful:
'
https://phys.org/news/2021-08-nasa-high … adows.html
Quote:

NASA study highlights importance of surface shadows in moon water puzzle

Well, this is starting to look very interesting.

If I visualize it, the frost crystals at low temperatures in behavior might be a bit like
sugar cubes.  When then heated by direct sunlight or infrared emmissions of heated regolith
then perhaps  it behaves like ping pong balls.  Doing bounces, in proportion to the degree
of heating.  As the Lunar atmophsere is so thin, it does not take that much heat to
induce the bounces.  (Sublimation).

So, then if there is a dish like crater, during the night it seems likely that H20 and H0
may plant them selves into the material of the "Dish", but into sunrise, mobility will be
enhanced.  At first, with just a little heat, perhaps the ping pong balls will bounce
downhill since they are in the Moons field of gravity.  But then later as the heat intensifies,
I would think it likely that they would bounce out of the crater and off twords any shaddows
that may exist elsewhere, perhaps all the way to the night side of the Moon.

So, if it could be true that in early morning, these mobile molecules may concentrate into
shadows in the lower parts of a crator, then perhaps we can make a shadow machine to capture
them.

It would not be that complex in first implementation.  Just a container without heat, but that
allows raditaion to the dark sky.  Possible methods to enhance this might be to use electro-
static cling to help catch the molecules, and perhaps electrical current flows to direct the
ions into the shadow machine.

I have put this here, as I intend to go on quite a bit about the Moon, and Phobos and such.

The Ring-Swingy-Thingy smile

Done.


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#6 2021-08-04 07:30:36

Void
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Re: World Rings

So, now if water is being generated or applied to the Moon by some process, I am very inclined to speculate about the moons of Mars.  Speculate is about all I can do,
as our amount of  measurements is very low.  Hope Japan and others improve on that.

I actually was going to do more about the Moon, but am now thinking about Mars.  I will hope to get to the both of them, of course.

Phobos and Deimos are both tidally locked, I believe, and also orbit the Equator, I
also seem to believe.  In my mind this should indicate that the North and South poles of each should be rather cold, perhaps the coldest part of the moons, other than maybe the night sides of the moons.

Present time water creation on the moons, may involve the solar wind implanting
Hydrogen and Helium and Helium 3 into the regolith.  The Hydrogen could often
not have an electron, so as I think I understand it, that could actually embed into
other materials.  Impactors then striking the Hydrogen embedded particles, may heat them to the point that H20 or HO is produced.  It is also true that some impactors may include minerals with water and other organic chemicals embedded in them.  So, we may have a currently operating source of new water and maybe
even other desired things.

We were given the information that heat can transfer by convection, conduction, and radiation.  We must think it not likely that convection plays much of a role in
potential new water in the Martian moons.  We anticipate that radiation plays a big role, and I have already speculated that the poles of these moons may have a particular type of coldness, relative to the equator, as the equator sees full sunlight of that distance from the sun, and the bitter cold of the universe in it's day cycle.  So we have some speculative definition of what the properties of convection and radiation are for the Martian moons.  Of course here I am not referring to damaging radiation, but rather infrared wavelengths where a relative
lack of sunshine may make a particular surface colder than those in greater amounts of sunlight.

This though leaves us to speculate about thermal conduction.  What are the rules on Phobos and Deimos?

So a major question might be "Is there an accumulation of condensates in either of these moons?".  That might very much affect the level of conductivity in the
interior of these moons.

If we were to believe that the two moons are both complete rubble piles and having no condensates in them, (Ice), then as we think that they have a whole lot of pore space inside of them, they will not have as much thermal conductivity inside of them relative to what would occur if they had ice inside of them.

So, you have possibilities.  Pore space filled with vacuum will have a different thermal conductivity than pore space with ice.  Granted that pore spaces with vacuum may radiate heat.  Still we are wondering if we are dealing with a thermos bottle or a slab of ice.  My feeling is that the possibility exists that at the equator,
on the surface thermos bottle effects dominate.  However if the poles were cold
enough for ice, then we may have a conductive body which could involve an amount of ice that may project cold by thermal conductivity into the interiors of the moons.

I will address hydrated minerals next.  I am getting tired.  I will come back later....
Done.

Last edited by Void (2021-08-04 07:58:34)


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#7 2021-08-05 13:04:01

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Re: World Rings

OK, to make it relatively short, I think that however Phobos or Deimos were formed they may contain a distribution of substances that could be helpful to a human cause.  More on that later.

A "Ring" could be just Phobos orbiting Mars at first, or to take a bit of mass from Phobos and  make it into a magnetic space station orbiting much closer to Mars than Phobos.  The structure of Phobos will likely need modifications as well.  My intention is that the new space station would be magnetically in communication as per orbital forces, and that it would then access the inertia of Phobos, while being at a lower orbit to facilitate the use of a composite robotic tether arm to reach down to grab things to orbit and drop them from orbit.

Phobos could be the anchor magnet, and so the more inner ring having whatever tunable magnetic properties that can help the cause.  Phobos itself may have such an intense magnetic field that it can protect the Martian atmosphere if that proves
economically valuable.  I think it will.

So, actually you could have several such magnetic stations in a "Ring", orbit.

A Phobos and other magnetic fields could be "Lumpy" as to catch the solar wind and yet protect the atmosphere of Mars.  And it may catch the inertia of solar outputs, of the solar wind, and methods catching the inertia of light might be employed.

The surface may be used by such a system to also propel the elements of such a "Ring(s)", as for instance perhaps to intermittently pull on the mass of the Tharsis Uplift, and other surface objects may be of assistance to generate stored inertia in the orbital objects so that they by tether method might lift mass to Martian orbit.

------

I am thinking of similar for the Moon.

Of course other projects as well.  But it is important to understand that for the Moon, the amount of virtual labor in connection to robotic methods will be massive early relative to Mars. 

The Moon may be a very big thing, Mars a very big thing in it's own way.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2021-08-05 13:13:45)


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#8 2021-08-05 13:20:55

Void
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Re: World Rings

I expect that such a collection of orbital magnetic fields could be throttled per time sequences, and that to also include magnitude changes for the fields.

The tethers would be of a compound nature much more resembling a collection of fishing lines, spinners, and pendulums, with the inclusion of new invention of robotic methods.  Also to be included may be propulsion devices to help move the
arms.

I really think that a ring(s) around the Moon is going to be a very big thing if we can find a way to organize it properly not to enable forces against human development.  That part will be the political part of the problem.  And of course, that's going to be very giant, as non western cultures will desire to enslave western cultures.  That I do not know how to fix yet.  Peoples trying to extract tribute while they do not contribute a value added service, I will not be OK with that.

Done.


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#9 2021-08-06 14:08:06

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Re: World Rings

Here is an idea from NASA about putting a magnetic field in the Martian L1.

https://www.extremetech.com/extreme/245 … t%20oceans.

Quote:

A NASA talk given at the recent Planetary Science Vision 2050 Workshop presented a potential way to make Mars more habitable by giving it an artificial magnetic field. This could protect human residents from radiation and bring back some of the planet’s ancient oceans.

It has never been clear to me as to how you keep the solar wind from pushing the device out of the L1.  I did think that they could hang weights on tethers towards the sun, but I am not at all confident that that comes close to a valid method.

But if they do know a way, then that could be part of the mixture of magnets.

I now think that a literally large component would be a magnetic field centered on Phobos, and encompassing Mars itself.  If the L1 could do part of the load then the Phobos field might not need to be that big.

And I would also like to see a magnetic field established on Deimos.

Phobos is spiraling inwards towards Mars, but Deimos is spiraling outward.  Perhaps this can be harnessed as momentum to lift up cargo and spaceships with tethers.  I of course anticipate that their would have to be an electric motor type of manipulating each magnetic field, to achieve both protection of Mars, and the lifting activity.

And as I indicated before, I am hoping that a ring of magnetic stations could operate in this combinational field system, so that a tether would not have to be
so long as to hang from Phobos.  I do not know what the ideal tether length would be but suppose it could be discovered.

Each magnetic station could actually come to have a lot of inertia, as it would include solar power generators, and factories, and space habitats.

The orbital ring could also work with multiple magnetic stations, and perhaps with natural features in the ground, or perhaps atmosphere which could have magnetic properties, and in addition it might be desired to put magnetic ground stations on the surface.

Although some have said that for Mars tethers could pick up loads from the surface, I am thinking more of a type of Mini-Starship deal, where the ship is snagged to orbit from a sub-orbital path of it's own making.  If propellants can be obtained in orbit, then such a ship would not even have to lift it's propellants for landing later.  It would get those in orbit before landing.

This might really cascade into something much easier to do than to fuel up a full sized Starship and send it to Earth.  But of course fill sized Starships probably would still operate for that purpose.

Done

Last edited by Void (2021-08-06 14:23:14)


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#10 2021-08-07 17:49:01

Void
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Re: World Rings

From: "Index» Human missions» Clockwork Steampunk power for Exploation of hot hellish Venus",  Post #9

Quote:

I would like to participate.  I may put some here, and some in the topic "World Rings" in Terraforming.

I see Venus different than others, it would seem.

I see it as an oven full of good things.  But to get those things there will be a very high up front cost.

I think as most do, the Moon and Mars will come first.  This could give training and resources to do
Mercury, to have robotics and some humans on Mercury, but certainly not anytime soon to terraform Mercury.

For now it is great to develop robots that can work in the oven or float above the oven, to discover as
much information as possible.  It may not be apparent, but there are being developed electronics for such
high temperatures.  But they are not there yet.

When it became time to do Venus, I would seek three main parts.

-Orbital Ring.
-Atmospheric floating base.
-Very active ground mining machinery.

So, likely after research had been done on methods to travel and even mine the surface of Venus, and....
Probes had researched the atmosphere of Venus, then....
Build facilities in the orbit of Venus, with Skyhook technology....

Skyhooks should have been researched very well by that time.

Likely the first orbital facilities would be build from non-Venus materials.  The Moon, Mercury, and maybe
NEO's. Perhaps even from Mars/Phobos/Deimos.

But of these Mercury might be the best, as the solar wind and also photons, would be forces that can move
Materials to Venus, much like rivers used to move logs to a sawmill.

In my opinion, most people would not live in the atmosphere of Venus, but in orbit of it.  Robots would be
the main inhabitants of the cloud cities, and I would consider it rather stupid to send people to the surface.

However, by that time it would be likely that humans would have several optional bodies.  There own organic
on in orbit, and robotic ones in the Venus environment.  So you could walk or roll on the surface of Venus,
or fly through it's atmosphere. Neuralink type technologies might be involved.

With tethers, atmospheric materials could be dragged to orbit.

For Tether stuff and World Rings, see: Terraformation/World Rings

Sulphur and Carbon are two materials that could be used in orbit in addition to metals that might be imported
from elsewhere.  Nitrogen and Oxygen would provide atmospheres for space habitats in orbit of Venus.

So, I presume that Skyhooks, and Starship wanna bees, will link the orbital structures to the floating sky city.

I only want one city as I don't want them to bang into each other.  It could be as small as an island, however
you define that, or it could completely encompass the sphere of Venus, inside of it's atmosphere.

At this time I am favoring something the size of a major island to a small continent.  Having this then, what
could be accomplished?  Well you could mine the atmosphere, and if there were components you could not directly
scoop out of the atmosphere with tethers from a World Ring, you could send some up in rockets, possibly assisted
by skyhooks from a World Ring.

If you mined the atmosphere, then you could have Nitrogen, which can be a lifting gas, and Oxygen, which has it's
various uses, and liquid CO2.

By this time it should have been possible to develop robotic and energy systems that could function on the surface
of Venus, as is.  Now, to mine and extract, we need a atmospheric vehicle.  It would be robotic.  It would have
glide wings, and skid landing methods, I think.  Much of it would be heat tolerant.  It's interior would be filled
with relatively non-reactive Nitrogen/Argon for flotation purposes.  However it would have ballast tanks that could be
filled with Liquid CO2.  This would be to weight the glider down, to cool essential parts that needed it, and to
provide a boil situation that could power the device.

The thing would drop from the cloud city. Land on a runway, and pick up some payload.  As the CO2 ballast diminished,
it would become lighter and the remaining Liquid CO2 could power propellers to bring it back into the sky.
At a certain point when all the CO2 ballast was gone it would be lighter than air at say 10 bar on Venus. We would want
it to take a perch on our sky city at ~that pressure.

You see, for the sky city, I anticipate many floors, that would be very difficult for humans to inhabit, but not so
bad for robots.  10 Bars, means more flotation properties.  This city could be multistory.  Each floor perhaps
with it's own gas mixture and pressure.  Some airlocks may be needed.  Humans might inhabit upper floors.

You understand that about 10 bar, with a high temperature, Sulfuric Acid decomposes into Sulfur Oxides, and water
vapor.  Then you take as much of the water as you want.

So, Jump/Jump to orbit with materials.

The current surface of Venus is about 1/2 one kind of CO2 that can dissolve things, and the other 1/2 is where those
things can condense.  Thing like Lead and Bismuth.  But I would hope for so many other minerals.  I am not so sure
that we so much would want to change Venus but harmonize with it.

I will post this on World Rings as well as here.  Sorry about that. This was quite an effort for someone like me.

Done.

Mostly spell checked and modified the day after the original post.

Done

Last edited by Void (2021-08-08 08:32:24)


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#11 2021-08-08 21:01:23

Void
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Re: World Rings

I would like to say a few things about previous posts.  I am not sure at all that
the Martian moons will have water ice.  Probably Helium and Helium3, and maybe
Hydrogen in the pore spaces.

I also feel that it is likely that Phobos and Deimos would be able to supply many
valuable items, possibly including Carbon and hydrated minerals.

I think that our path will be the Moon/Mars/Phobos/Demos first, and in the second
expansion perpaps into Mercury>Venus & Asteroids.  All of that should take some
time.  And there are no gaurantees that the human race will not go insane before
that much progress is accomplished.

I don't have a set notion of what a cloud city would be like, but I think it would
be for professional people and visitors, and robots.  Huge farms and habitats, and
energy facilities could be in orbit.  Probably to make the thing work well though
there would need to be mining of the atmosphere, and also surface mining. That will
require a whole lot of future innovation and time.

I do like "World Rings".  I have tried to be consirvative about using magnitism to
link them at first, but in ages beyond now, I think that it could actually happen
that these would be physically linked segments to form a ring of matter.  I one can
dream of Dyson Spheres, then it is far more modest to dream of World Rings.

A little more about Venus:
Some have indicated how close the gravitation of Venus is to Earth.  I read that it
is ~90% that of Earth.  Since Elon Musk has said that the gravitation of Earth is
almost so much that surface to LEO, methods would be pohibited, we should think to
be lucky to have a world where there is a bit of mercy about that, and yet it likely
has enough gravity for people to remain healty.  And it seems to have the potential
for an enormous amount of materials to be recovered.  I suspect that if you took
away all the atmosphere of Venus with Skyhooks and an orbital ring, it would produce
another atmosphere from what is disolved in it's interior.

It really might be quite a gift.  We should not be sad that there is not a hostile
alien race living on Venus, and that it might become and inheritance for humans.

Done for now. smile


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#12 2021-08-09 00:02:37

Calliban
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From: Northern England, UK
Registered: 2019-08-18
Posts: 1,199

Re: World Rings

Given the orbits of the Martian moons, they are most likely to consist of accumulated ejecta from the Martian surface.  In which case, they are unlikely to contain water.  Ejected material would have formed a ring around Mars, which would have coalesced into moons over centuries.  Any water remaining in the material following the heat of impact will sublime into the vacuum of space before the moons had finished coalescing.


Interested in space science, engineering and technology.

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#13 2021-08-09 12:01:09

Void
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Re: World Rings

The most simple and honest answer to that is "We don't know".

Because we don't know.

Quote the Calliban:

Given the orbits of the Martian moons, they are most likely to consist of accumulated ejecta from the Martian surface.  In which case, they are unlikely to contain water.  Ejected material would have formed a ring around Mars, which would have coalesced into moons over centuries.  Any water remaining in the material following the heat of impact will sublime into the vacuum of space before the moons had finished coalescing.


The above sounds a lot like the "Bone Dry Moon".   I cannot prove that there was
fowl play about that, but I recall a preacher, saying that "God would never allow
man to go to the Moon".  A really nice guy, he actually was, but from a mindset
that is not so present in the now.  And you have to understand there were a whole
lot of people who did not want to see money wasted on such things.  This could
iinclude national security people as well.  And from time to time they might be
doing the correct thing.  Now, if SpaceX and others continue to change the cost
numbers, the national security situation is not so much an issue.  In fact in that
case some parts of national security require space activities.  So, I do not
believe that the "Bone dry Moon" conslusion was anything other then a careful
lie.

We know know that the Moon has water resources.  It is not an ocean planet of course

Before I move on, I want to mess with the phrase "Bone dry Moon".
It is actually silly, as a bone could be in a wet place and would not be "Bone Dry".

https://www.technologyreview.com/2012/0 … to%20Earth.
Quote:

Soviet Moon Lander Discovered Water on the Moon in 1976

The article does not appear to be biased.

Anyway, I do not believe that impactors will boil off all the volitile substances.

In the case of a Moon created by a impact, both the Earth and the impactor likely had volitile materials.

So, you have a massive compression event which may well add heat to the ejecta, but after that you have zero gee.
During the compression, volities should disolve even more into molten rock.  During Zero Gee, it should not be very
possible for bubbles to boil out of the masses of liquid rock.  There could be tiny bubbles, but no gravity field.
There would be no "UP" for the bubbles to move towards.  I'm not saying there would be no losses, but it might require
that rock be vaporized.  Even then, maybe not all would be lost.

There are several things.  What was the sun's disk like at the time?  Might further materials from the solar system
as infalling materials bring more volitiles?  How bright was the sun? 70% of the now?  Was the snow line near the
Earth/Moon or Mars?  How long did the Moon and/or its major subparts have an atmosphere?

Alternate formation theories for Luna, Phobos, and Deimos would also be important if they were real.

Then there is this:
https://www.nasa.gov/jpl/mars/meteorite-20140227/
Water in Mars meteorite.

https://astronomy.com/news/2019/05/rare … nd%20space.

And in this post I have not so much refered to new water either from impactors, or from the solar wind and impactors, or
comets.

So, again this is true in my opinion:
Quote:

The most simple and honest answer to that is "We don't know".

Because we don't know.

Done


----------------

Even if there is no water, still the moons can have a value.  After all Mars, quite
near does have it, and therefore Hydrogen which could be lifted to orbit.

It is very likely that Phobos/Deimos have Oxygen, and likely some Carbon, and
of course metals and such.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2021-08-09 12:02:02)


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#14 2021-08-09 19:19:48

Void
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Posts: 3,926

Re: World Rings

Almost as much Carbon Monoxide at the Lunar poles as water.
https://www.technologyreview.com/2012/0 … to%20Earth

I missed this when I scanned the document earlier about the Soviet missions:
Quote:

Crott goes on to detail a number of other fascinating efforts to find water on the moon, including the famous impact experiment in which NASA slammed an empty rocket stage into one of these shadowy craters to see what the ejecta plume would look like. Sure enough, it contained plenty of water but lots of other stuff too including almost as much carbon monoxide as water.

So the bold line might help to say why NASA picked the Lunar Starship.

Done

Last edited by Void (2021-08-18 17:47:32)


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#15 2021-08-11 19:24:39

Void
Member
Registered: 2011-12-29
Posts: 3,926

Re: World Rings

I think that Mercury could be mentioned.

-Somewhat like the Moon, has polar deposits that may contain water, and I think likely other things like CO.
-Somewhat like Mars per gravitation.
-Somewhat like the Earth per magnetic field, but only ~1%
-Like Venus, on average, it is hotter than the Earth and Mars.

So, I think we deal with Earth, Mars, Luna.
-Then perhaps Mercury, if we don't need the materials of the asteroid belt.
-Then we might be set to deal with Venus.

If Mercury were to be given a ring, I think it might be driven by Photons, but that is a first guess.

Done.


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#16 2021-08-12 10:48:09

Void
Member
Registered: 2011-12-29
Posts: 3,926

Re: World Rings

When I think about Mercury, it sort of triggers my thinking about places similar
to Proxima Centauri

In that Red Dwarf system, there are thought to be at least 2 or 3 significant planets.
Proxima b is perhaps a bit larger than Earth.  A distant Gas giant Proxima C, and
maybe a Proxima D which would be nearer the star than would be "B", and ~1/2 it's size.

I have wondered.  If we choose to think that all 3 planets exist, then we might model
a possible adaptation(s) to various situations.

If the solar wind of Proxima Centaur does strip atmospheres, it is still possible
that a Mercury type planet may have significant polar ice caps.  The wind would deliver
water and other items, to the planet, and if it is like Mercury, it may retain ices
in polar deposites.

If however Proxima b, and Proxima d??? were tidally locked, then ice deposites of verious
kines may exist on the leward say ~40% of the planets.

These might seem like they would be dead to life, but I can speculate on at least 2
situations where volcanism under ice may occur on such planets.

If there were 2 planets in orbital resonence, then the icy dark sides may have volcanism
under ice.  If the solar wind is as active as to make the retention of atmosphere diffacult
then it may also stimulate magma oceans on parts of the planets, that could also produce
volcanism under the dark side ice caps.

As this topic is "World Rings", it might be fun to speculate on how humans or another
alien species might solve the problems of utilizing such worlds.

In their solutions, we could speculate on, "World Rings" might fit in.

smile

Done.....

Last edited by Void (2021-08-12 10:48:32)


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#17 2021-08-12 17:17:04

Calliban
Member
From: Northern England, UK
Registered: 2019-08-18
Posts: 1,199

Re: World Rings

An orbital ring has an obvious advantage over an orbital space station: it can resist gravitational attraction from the planet through compressive forces within its structure.  That means that it doesn't necessarily need to be moving at local orbital velocity - it can be stationary w.r.t the surface of the planet.  What is more, the position of the ring will be quasi-stable, as its centre of mass would align with the centre of gravity of the planet.  This makes it very useful to hang a skyhook from, especially for slow rotating bodies.

The problem with this idea is that the more massive the central body and the greater the radius of curvature of the ring, the more extreme the compressive forces are within the ring.  Also, if the ring is extremely thin compared to its radius, any oscillations that cause it to deviate from a perfect circle could result in buckling instability.  One solution is to apply bracing cables, but for practical ring thickness, it would be difficult to find materials with a high enough Youngs modulus.  The only other solution is to rotate the ring slightly faster than local orbital velocity, which would put it in tension.  But this eliminates most of the benefits of ring.


Interested in space science, engineering and technology.

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#18 2021-08-12 21:13:02

Void
Member
Registered: 2011-12-29
Posts: 3,926

Re: World Rings

Calliban,

smile Perhaps it could hinge on Hinges.

And think giant orbital chain motor.

-------
Before I continue with my reply, which very likely can have holes in it that are
to be discovered, and fixed or not be fixable.

Some part of the purpose of this topic is to project thinking to a future where
somehow humans as groups can try to do things like this.

And, if plausible in any way, then it may be important to lay foundations in the
present that support such a future, rather than to fly blind.  But under no
circumstance do I expect to see such massive projects engaged in in the now or
near future.

If you review Isaac Arthurs video which can be found on post #1, you will see
that he describes an elliptical ring that is like a chain saw, which I presume does
not literally mean to construct a giant robotic lumberjack with a literal
giant chain saw.

So, as you have cautioned against a rigid ring, we can consider a chain ring.
To have the compression and tension controlled by various options.

While there are other options, we can consider:
-Solar wind:  Put magnetic sails on all of it but choose the balance of those
that currently are in a position to collect momentum, against those which could
bleed it off with the passage of the solar wind.
-Photons: Use movable sails.
-Geomagnetic: For planets with a magnetic field, it may be possible to use tethers
which would be using Electrical power to control the momentum.

I currently choose to think of a circular chain ring.  I am most excited about
Mars, Luna, Mercury, Venus.  I am not at all sure that we should risk a Kessler
Syndrome by putting one around the Earth.

But as I have said, these are basically thoughts of a possible future which might
point to the direction that we should consider building towards.  Until a better
projection in the future can be formulated.

I have also considered a necklace of discrete sections linked in the similar orbit
by magnetism.

Done.


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