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#26 2021-03-23 11:27:38

Calliban
Member
From: Northern England, UK
Registered: 2019-08-18
Posts: 1,154

Re: Potential Multi-World Future

Void wrote:

------
The question of Argon from the Moon.
Issac Arthur does mention it, in the video in the just prior post.
Apparently it can freeze out on the night side of the Moon, so presumably it might exist in significant quantities in the polar shadowed craters.  It apparently outgasses from the Moon, as Potasium-40 decays.
So, possibly a local resource of significance.  Among other uses, perhaps useful in electric propulsion.
https://www.isro.gov.in/update/31-oct-2 … -exosphere
Quote:

Detection of Argon-40 in the lunar exosphere

So, useful to purposes in space I would guess, along with other methods of propulsion, and perhaps for many other purposes.
Done.

As the moon has experienced no geological activity for 3Gy and no crustal movement at all aside from meteorite gardening, there should be substantial pockets of pressurised radiogenic argon beneath the surface.  Helium as well.  It may turn out that helium is a more abundant buffer gas on the moon than nitrogen.  Argon is twice as narcotic as nitrogen, but should be breathable at partial pressures beneath 40KPa without noticeable effects.  On Mars, argon and nitrogen are both present in the atmosphere at 1.9% concentration each.  A mixture of 40% argon, 40% N2 and 20% O2, at 1bar, should be breathable without too many problems.

Last edited by Calliban (2021-03-23 11:32:59)


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#27 2021-03-23 12:11:57

tahanson43206
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Re: Potential Multi-World Future

For Calliban re #25

RobertDyck recommends 1/2 bar for atmosphere in Mars habitats and in spacecraft.

If you are interested in his recommendations you can find them in his Large Ship topic, as well as elsewhere in the archive.

The justification is pretty straight forward.... By choosing to set habitat pressure at that level, residents can don "outside" suits without pre-breathing.  The "outside" suits, like NASA flight suits from the Apollo era, will operate with pure O2.

(th)

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#28 2021-03-23 13:37:25

Calliban
Member
From: Northern England, UK
Registered: 2019-08-18
Posts: 1,154

Re: Potential Multi-World Future

tahanson43206 wrote:

For Calliban re #25

RobertDyck recommends 1/2 bar for atmosphere in Mars habitats and in spacecraft.

If you are interested in his recommendations you can find them in his Large Ship topic, as well as elsewhere in the archive.

The justification is pretty straight forward.... By choosing to set habitat pressure at that level, residents can don "outside" suits without pre-breathing.  The "outside" suits, like NASA flight suits from the Apollo era, will operate with pure O2.

(th)

That's interesting.  At those pressures, argon narcosis won't be a problem either.  To produce 1m3 of Martian air under those conditions, we would take 700m3 of Martian atmosphere at 6.1mbar, compress it until the CO2 liquefies.  The residue would be about 50/50 mix of argon and nitrogen, with traces of O2 and CO.  Next, we heat the Ar/N2 to about 500°C and pass it over a nickel catalyst bed to oxidise any residual CO.  At 0.5bar, the remaining gas would occupy 0.6m3.  We then add to this 0.4m3 of oxygen (0.25kg) O2, to make Martian air: 30% Ar, 30% N2, 40% O2 @ 50KPa.

Last edited by Calliban (2021-03-23 13:40:17)


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#29 2021-03-23 18:38:19

Void
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Posts: 3,884

Re: Potential Multi-World Future

------
Some interesting dialog for sure, and mention of works of other members.
I have my own ideas of how to knit thing together.  I feel that for  both Earth and Mars, and other worlds of the future, it makes all kinds of sense to have orbital habitats, and to conduct energy from orbital positions to locations on such worlds.
And one of the favorite targets in the case of Mars would be the polar ice caps.
-Microwaves
-Lasers
-Mirrors
-Elon Musk nuclear flash bombs.
It makes no sense at all to limit the human experience for Mars, to the surface of Mars, when we have very strong evidence that for the Earth/Moon there will be lots of opportunities to have a human orbital presence.
For me, the key to Mars will to not be shy about "Taking the bull by the horns".  The polar areas are where water wants to condense, and all that is required to create significant bodies of water is an additional input of energy to those locations.
The key to doing that is to master the orbits of Mars.  Zero g and also synthetic gravity devices, solar power.  And yes to the degree practicle, then nuclear of various types if available.
It is a wonderful future for Mars.  With skyhooks, it should be possible for humans to move between the poles seasonally, and also to perch in vast habitations in orbit.  I cannot imagine why humans will not choose to do that.
Thanks for the dialog on this topic.
Done.


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#30 2021-03-25 12:09:17

Void
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Posts: 3,884

Re: Potential Multi-World Future

------
Phobos & Deimos
I have taken some interest in tethers, and magnetic fields for Mars lately.  And of course I avocate orbital occupation for Mars/Phobos/Deimos.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moons_of_Mars
Quote:

Phobos and Deimos (both found in 1877, more than a century after Swift's novel) have actual orbital distances of 1.4 and 3.5 Martian diameters, and their respective orbital periods are 7.66 and 30.35 hours.[5][6]

The above is useful to understand the proportions of what I will be suggesting.
I would like to consider imposing a magnetic field on each moon.   It is possible that if it was strong enough, the one for Phobos might protect the atmosphere all around.  The one for Deimos would not encircle the planet.
So, the protection of the atmosphere would be a secondary objective, and I would hope it could be done.
But the primary objective would be to create a giant motor. 
The use of a magnetic field for Deimos would be to turn it on when Deimos is orbiting away from the sun, and reduce or turn it off when Deimos was orbiting towards the sun.
The magnetic fields of Deimos and Phobos would act on each other.  Deimos is being pushed to a higher orbit by tidal forces.  Phobos is being pulled to lower orbits by tidal forces.  I know that it would be millions of years before Phobos would crash on it's own, but I want to use this motor to bring materials up from Mars.  Atmosphere gasses, and surface materials.
It is also possible that the two moons magnetism would be able to interact with the fossil magnetic fields on Mars itself, and it is not out of the question to have artificial magnetic fields built on the surface of Mars.
Skyhooks could be used with this.  However I am hoping that the magnetic field for Phobos could directly draw atmoshere into itself, so that that could be somehow collected at Phobos.
It may also be possible to take materials from Phobos, and create some heavy orbiters, that woud orbit much lower than Phobos, and would have magnetic fields, and skyhooks them selves.
As I expect the human race to build habitats in LEO, and around the Moon, it would seem silly to me that humans would go to Mars, and yet not build things in orbit around Mars.  Obviously orbital power would be a way to add energy to Mars.
Strangly I video connected to a prior post suggests that it would be easier to bring materials from Phobos to Lunar orbit, than to lift materials from the Lunar surface.
And working with those moons would get the human race ready to move into the asteroid belt.

------
I also intend that the solar wind will be used to move Deimos towards a higher orbit.  Not just the tidal force of Mars.

Done for now.

Last edited by Void (2021-03-25 12:14:16)


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#31 2021-03-25 18:33:54

Void
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Re: Potential Multi-World Future

This is from post #12 of the topic: 

Index» Science, Technology, and Astronomy» Articles about how Mars works and used to work.

But I want it here as well.
Quote:

------
Important dialog Callaban.
In the dreams of some of our people, Mars will become a second Earth to some degree.
This will need to be updated to the Earth that will be.  With lower cost transport to LEO from the surface of the Earth, apparently on the horrizon, then we can anticipate that in orbit of Earth will be:
-Solar power plants
-Microgravity factories
-Synthetic gravity machines.
Why should the above be excluded from the New Mars?
We can Musk and Robert Zubrin the surface of Mars, but in my opinion we should Jeff Bezos the hill sphere of Mars.
The ISS has given us some valuable things apparently.  I used to think it was a dud.  Apparentlly some aspects of space sickness can be treated fairly well.  Bone loss and Muscle loss.  So, then if you have a large microgravity agricultural area, and torroidal synthedtic gravity machines, it looks better for the habitation of the hill sphere of Mars.
And apparently agriculture is possible in microgravity, so you could have minimal structures to perform agriculture in orbit.  And it is my opinion that by shining the light into these structures, you may also regulate to prevent overheating by dumping heat through heat engines, to the universe.
For those agricultural areas, radiation could still be a problem, but if you used magnetic shielding, and gave humans a transit vehicle which would have mass shielding, things might be just fine.
Suppose a Mars where 50% of the people lived on the surface, and 50% in orbit.
Alternately 95%/5%.
Alternately 5%/95%.
This would be determined by the path of least resistance.  Whatever is more efficient/effective.
And then their can be skyhooks.  If you have a skyhook that can snag Martian atmosphere and put it into an agricultural enclosure in orbit, then you can "Grow" Oxygen for Starships.
The Methane might be created on the surface of Mars, or depending on what is inside the two moons, perhaps even in orbit.   On the other hand if you have CO2 from the Martian atmosphere, it seems to me that Hydrogen could be brought up from the Martian surface.  And so then you would have propellant sources in orbit.  No dust storms, no seasonal short days.
It may be that in orbit toxins would be less of a problem.
There are so many tricks that could be invented....
How about energy storage in orbit by heating a block of stone to incandescent, and having thermos bottle type protection.  Virtually 24/7 power for a heat engine.  The heat most likely comming from concentrating mirrors.  It might even be possible to turn that into a light to heat locations on Mars????
As for the Hydrosphere, I would warm it up with energy from space, starting at the polar ice caps.  Ice apparently will filter out at least some of the UV.  And I can see where possibly we would not allow true winters in the polar nights.  Just shine reflected light to the polar ice caps, and possibly reject the UV.
While it would be true that the polar ice cap ice would tend to vaporize, as the CO2 in the ice caps was eliminated, then Mars can have true snowfalls.  And much of that snow would fall on or around the polar ice cap areas.
Even ice water is much warmer than the Martian regolith.  I would anticipate that eventually 1/3 of the Martian surface could be covered by ice covered reservoirs.
I have a notion about an artificial magnetic field for Mars.  It could be pulsed.  Probably with a DC with an AC component in it.  The results desired would be to protect the atmosphere, but also to induce AC eddy currents into magnetic and conductive materials.  So to heat the regolith.
But you are right, it will take a long long time to warm up the regolith, if that is desired.  Such a pulsed field would have to produce useful results in order to be justified.
A little more fantastic would be to have mirror arrays outside of the orbit of Mars.  Depending on the relative orbital time periods, these might be timed to warm a polar ice cap in winter.  Otherwise they might process asteroid materials, or be used to push spacecraft, perhaps with photons.  A bit of a concern that they sould not be used for war.
My opinion is that the Martian world can be rich, and a wonderfull place to settle to, it does not have to be like a Siberian labor camp.
Send Jeff Bezos to Mars.
smile
Done.

Last edited by Void (2021-03-25 18:35:14)


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#32 2021-03-27 11:53:07

Void
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Registered: 2011-12-29
Posts: 3,884

Re: Potential Multi-World Future

------
Some small items:
-Argon-40 from the Moon might get some good results per electric rockets, I presume???
-If you lift the Argon-40 and manufactured machines from the Moon with a skyhook, maybe that works out to deliver stuff to Mars at a rather good cost.
------
I am actually thinking about radioactive generation of greenhouse gasses on Mars.
We do have some evidence of how dangerous bomb and reactor derived materials are.  It seems life has to ability to adapt.  I actually would prefer to keep Korolev crater clean, and use beamed power and perhaps nuclear power on it without excess radioactive fallout, but I want to consider what Hydrogen bombs actually set off in the crater might do.  It may be that Korolev would not be the place to try this, but somewhere else.
I have this suggesting a biological benefit to radioactivity.  I think it might be acceptable for terraforming Mars, if done correctly.
We have seen this recently on this site:
https://www.universetoday.com/150458/mi … ive-decay/
Quote:

Microbes Found That Survive on the by-Products of Radioactive Decay
In addition to investigating the big questions about life in our Universe (origins, evolution, distribution, etc.), one of the chief aims of astrobiologists is to characterize extraterrestrial environments to determine if life could exist there. However, there are still unresolved questions about the range of conditions under which life can survive and thrive. Placing better constraints on this will help astrobiologists search for life beyond Earth.

To get a better understanding of how ecosystems can exist beneath the ocean floor (so far from the Sun) a team of researchers led by the University of Rhode Island’s Graduate School of Oceanography (GSO) conducted a study on microbes in ancient seafloor sediment. What they found, to their surprise, was that these lifeforms are sustained primarily by chemicals created by the natural irradiation of water molecules.

The research was led by Justine Sauvage, a postdoctoral fellow at the University of Gothenburg who conducted the research as part of her doctorate at the GSO. She was joined by members from the United States Geological Survey (USGS), the Woods Hole Oceanographic Institution, and the Center for Marine Environmental Sciences (MARUM) at the University of Bremen.




Marine sediment samples used in the irradiation experiments. Credit: Justine Sauvage/URI
The research team’s findings were the result of a series of laboratory experiments conducted in the Rhode Island Nuclear Science Center. It was here that Sauvage and her colleagues irradiated vials of wet sediment that were collected by U.S. research vessels and the Integrated Ocean Drilling Program from various locations in the Pacific and Atlantic Oceans.

The purpose of this experiment was to measure the rate of radiolysis, where exposure to naturally-occurring radiation causes water molecules to split into hydrogen and oxidants. In contrast to terrestrial life that is fueled by the by-products of photosynthesis, these molecules are the primary source of food energy for microbes living in sediment a few meters below the seafloor.

This radiation-fueled environment, which covers much of the open ocean, is one of Earth’s largest ecosystems. After comparing the production of hydrogen in these sediments to similarly irradiated vials of seawater and distilled water, the team found that the process is amplified by minerals in marine sediment significant (as high as 30 times). As Steven D’Hondt, a URI professor of oceanography and a co-author of the study, said in a URI Today press statement:



“The marine sediment actually amplifies the production of these usable chemicals. If you have the same amount of irradiation in pure water and in wet sediment, you get a lot more hydrogen from wet sediment. The sediment makes the production of hydrogen much more effective.”


Artist’s impression of the Perseverance rover looking for signs of life on Mars. Credit: NASA/JPL-Caltech
The reason for this is unclear, but the team speculates that the minerals in the sediment may behave like a semiconductor, making the absorption of radiation more efficient. Regardless, the implications of this research are significant for astrobiologists, particularly where the search for extraterrestrial life in our own backyard is concerned. As Sauvage explained:

“This work provides an important new perspective on the availability of resources that subsurface microbial communities can use to sustain themselves. This is fundamental to understand life on Earth and to constrain the habitability of other planetary bodies, such as Mars.

Consider the Perseverance rover, which landed on Mars back in February and very recently began driving across the Jezero Crater. The purpose of this mission is to collect samples of Martian rocks for the sake of characterizing the planet’s habitable environments. In addition, the rover will procuring samples from the natural delta formation in the crater (which was created by the deposit of sediment over time) which may contain evidence of past life.

This research could also inform the search for life in exotic environments. For decades, scientists have speculated that the most likely place to find extraterrestrial life could be within icy moons like Europa, Enceladus, and other satellites that are believed to have warm-water oceans in their interiors. Since they are not exposed to the Sun, these environments would be require sources of chemical energy other than photosynthesis.




Artist rendering showing an interior cross-section of the crust of Enceladus, which shows how hydrothermal activity may be causing the plumes of water at the moon’s surface. Credits: NASA-GSFC/SVS, NASA/JPL-Caltech/Southwest Research Institute
And then there are extrasolar planets, where astrobiologists are increasingly relied on to help characterize planetary environments and determine if they could be habitable. Said D’Hondt:

“If you can support life in subsurface marine sediment and other subsurface environments from natural radioactive splitting of water, then maybe you can support life the same way in other worlds. Some of the same minerals are present on Mars, and as long as you have those wet catalytic minerals, you’re going to have this process. If you can catalyze production of radiolytic chemicals at high rates in the wet Martian subsurface, you could potentially sustain life at the same levels that it’s sustained in marine sediment.”

There are even implications for the nuclear industry, including the storage of nuclear waste and the managing of nuclear accidents. According to these findings, radioactive waste that stored in sediment and rock would produce hydrogen and oxidants faster than if they were kept in normal water. As these are natural catalysts, this would likely result in the storage system becoming more corroded over time.

Building on their research thus far, the team hopes to explore the effect of radiolysis-driven hydrogen production in other environments. This includes oceanic crust, continental crust on Earth, the subsurface of Mars, and maybe even exoplanets. From this, they hope to advance our understanding of how subsurface ecosystems thrive in the dark!

So, where I am going with this is beyond the flash bombs that Elon has suggested.  I am thinking to build a giant pulsed Hydrogen bomb reactor.  If it were in Korolev crater, then expectations might be that it may be done while keeping most of the fallout inside of the crater, and under ice, and under water and in bottom sediments.
Of course a wet soil enviornment could be too radioactive for microbes, but apparently there can be a sweet spot, where chemicals would be generated for life, and damage not be excessive to life from radiation.  Some microbes have ability to tollerate some radiation.
So, the hoped for output would be Methane to release to the Martian atmosphere.  Also, the heat of the lake/sea created, would be available to generate electrical power with heat engines.
I do recall that skin divers can swim rather close to old reactor rods, as the water is very protective.  In this case if done correctly there would be vast amounts of water and ice between the surface of the ice, and the bottom sediments.  So fusion power pulsed reactors may be within our capabilities at this time, with terraforming possibilitys as a by product.
------
Still though I also want to explore beamed power from orbit for Mars as well:
https://www.universetoday.com/150565/ex … ed-energy/
Quote:

Exploring the Moon’s Shadowed Regions Using Beamed Energy

So, we might wonder if this could be modified to beam power down from orbit to a location like Korolev crater.   
If the fallout generally settles down to the bottom sediments, then I anticipate that it could be possible to shine light through a transparent material into enclosures in the upper part of the lake/sea.  That is, even though the amount of radioactive materials in the water just under the ice or surface were small, you could have water filled enclosures, where you could eliminate those materials entirely, almost.
Done.


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#33 2021-03-27 20:28:15

Void
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Registered: 2011-12-29
Posts: 3,884

Re: Potential Multi-World Future

Returning again to the Video about skyhooks by Isaac Arthur, I feel something can be added???

https://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=is … &FORM=VIRE

Where the Earth, Mercury, and the outer planets will have magnetic fields, to generate momentum, what is think of is Magnetic fields imposed on to skyhook tethers, so that the solar wind will be able to add momentum. 

This should be good for Venus, Luna, Mars, and perhaps some asteroids.

This might be done for the various types of skyhooks.

Perhaps it would even be possible to use such with "Cycling Spaceship Castles".

Of course if the skyhook is a spinning rotavator, then the fields have to be throttled large for when the spin is additive to the direction of the solar wind, and throttled smaller when the spin is in opposition to the solar wind.

I think that there will be many variations.

For skyhooks that do not hang over a worlds hill sphere, then the tether only has to endure the centrifugal force, and impactors, I guess.  But outside of the Earths orbit there should be lots of places with few impactors, at least at this time.

So, I guess this would be mostly used to send stuff outward, but I guess if you launched with the other spin maybe inward?

But it would support manufacturing structures in the Earth/Moon subsystem and sending them to Mars or Ceres.  Telepresence and robotics on the Moon, and perhaps in LEO.  A very large virtual labor force on the Earth.

Later with sophisticated robotics, Mercury>>Venus>>Outwards.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2021-03-27 20:38:05)


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#34 2021-03-30 08:48:40

Void
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Registered: 2011-12-29
Posts: 3,884

Re: Potential Multi-World Future

------
https://www.forbes.com/sites/arielcohen … f710076d46
Quote:

How Space Lasers Could Soon Beam Clean Power Down To Earth
Ariel Cohen
Ariel CohenContributor
Energy
I cover energy, security, Europe, Russia/Eurasia & the Middle East
International Space Station module Zvezda
373260 01: Artists concept drawing of the Russian service module Zvezda docks with the International ... [+] GETTY IMAGES
The idea of space-based laser weapons orbiting the earth has been a part of popular culture and real life government projects for decades, from James Bond’s Goldeneye to Ronald Reagan’s ambitious “Star Wars” program. Recently, the Pentagon began developing a framework to promote the innovation of what it calls Direct Energy Weapons (DEW) designed to weaponize laser systems for use against military targets. The U.S. military more than doubled its spending on DEWs between 2017 and 2019, from $535 million to $1.1 billion. Yet, compared with the massive funding for kinetic missile defense and nuclear modernization, these are minuscule budgets.

Other nations, such as China and Russia, are also investing in these DEW systems. There are even reports that China might have used microwaves against Indian troops in 2020. What does NOT exist, however, is PG&E or Solaren deploying lasers in space that are capable of beaming "lasers or blue beams of light," to start wildfires in California benefiting the Rothschilds, as Rep. Marjorie Taylor Green claimed in the infamous Facebook post.

Space, however, is the final frontier of solar energy. NASA recently tweeted that it has teamed with five companies – including Northrup Grumman NOC +0.1% and Lockheed Martin LMT -0.5% – to design “vertically deployable solar arrays” for use on the Moon. The solar arrays would be able to autonomously deploy up to 32 feet high and retract for relocation. The technology is meant to serve as the foundation for future extraterrestrial solar arrays that could be used to power anything from lunar habitats, to rovers, to future robotic or crewed missions.

Better to read and observe the link than the quote.
I was surprised however at the confidence expressed about Laser power transfers across distances.
Our planet could use it, but so could Mars, and perhaps other places such as our Moon.
But I am also thinking that these things could deliver energy to spacecraft, using Photon momentum, but I also like to consider machines that can accept that energy, and then produce a propulsion in other ways.
-Photon sails at mentioned above. 
-Magnetic Sails.
-Expelling a substance at a speed, Mass drivers, as I prefer it to expell things like Oxygen or CO2, but perhaps Argon.
------
So, when eventually the advantages of re-usable or re-purposeful methods are matured, as they likely eventually will be, there will be;
-Skyhooks.
-Energy beaming.

So, I don't think that the notion of a solar economy are futile at all.  It is just that almost all of us will not see the maturity of it.  As per financial assets generated in the now, I am guessing that some of that is potential for the near now.
As for dreams, and art, to follow the heart, yes this is the path.
Your alternative is to follow godless priests who claim to be socialists/Communists, but really are just vampires and cannibals.
I think we can have higher dreams than that, and that some times our dreams can become true.
Those who stand against the expansion of the human race are at this point criminals, and demons.  To hold a spirit of the human race against it's chances is evil.  We are guaranteed  to die.  How we live, if in a cage, or if free, and who chooses to own our fate, suggests how things will be perceived when all is said and done.  Who perceived it?  Well I am not appointed to such a position as I could not hold it, I am not worthy.
Done.

Last edited by Void (2021-03-30 08:52:42)


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#35 2021-03-31 07:04:39

Void
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Registered: 2011-12-29
Posts: 3,884

Re: Potential Multi-World Future

------
A Harvest Moon???
That is could we harvest the atmosphere of the Moon, the output of the sources of the atmosphere directed to a collection for human use?
I know that the atmosper of the Moon is incredibly thin, perhaps a number of tons of it, molecules bouncing off and on to the Moons surface.  So, perhaps this is a stupid thing to try to do.  However it is not stupid to consider if and how it might be done, and what the payoff could be.
Some of the sources of Lunar atmosphere would be:
1)Outgassing.
2) Reactions of the surface to external inputs;
-a) Sunlight
-b) impactors
-c) The solar wind itself
;Combinations of a, b, and c.
Some of the losses of atmosphere are the solar wind, sunlight, being trapped in a cold trap.
I have already agreed that the total quantity of atmosphere at any normal time, would be small.  However we do not know what the thruput of these materials are.
The components of this Lunar atmosphere look very desirable for the most part.
https://www.lpi.usra.edu/lunar/missions … 20detected.
Quote:

The Lunar Atmospheric Composition Experiment was deployed on Apollo 17. It was a mass spectrometer that measured the composition of the lunar atmosphere. On earlier missions, only the total abundance of the lunar atmosphere was measured by the Cold Cathode Gauge. The three primary gases in the lunar atmosphere are neon, helium, and hydrogen, in roughly equal amounts. Small amounts of methane, carbon dioxide, ammonia, and water were also detected. In addition, argon-40 was detected, and its abundance increased at times of high seismic activity. Argon-40 is produced by the radioactive decay of potassium-40 in the lunar interior, and the seismic activity may have allowed escape of argon from the interior to the surface along newly created fractures.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atmosphere_of_the_Moon
Quote:

Composition
What little atmosphere the Moon has consists of some unusual gases, including sodium and potassium, which are not found in the atmospheres of Earth, Mars, or Venus. At sea level on Earth, each cubic centimeter of the atmosphere contains approximately 1019 molecules; by comparison the lunar atmosphere contains fewer than 106 molecules in the same volume. On Earth, this is considered to be a very good vacuum. In fact, the density of the atmosphere at the Moon's surface is comparable to the density of the outermost fringes of Earth's atmosphere, where the International Space Station orbits.[5]

The elements sodium and potassium have been detected in the Moon's atmosphere using Earth-based spectroscopic methods, whereas the isotopes radon-222 and polonium-210 have been inferred from data obtained by the Lunar Prospector alpha particle spectrometer.[6] Argon-40, helium-4, oxygen and/or methane (CH4), nitrogen (N2) and/or carbon monoxide (CO), and carbon dioxide (CO2) were detected by in-situ detectors placed by the Apollo astronauts.

I have seen articles that mention Ammonia.
So, then I expect some of these substances to have collected in the polar cold sinks.
So, it is already proposed to extract materials from the shadowed craters.
-----
However, I wonder if it could be possible to allow these natural processes to continue, but to add a magnetic field to the Moon, to promote the condensation of many of these things into the cold sinks, rather than for much of it to be pulled from the Moon.
We might think to drill for Argon-40 for instance, but perhaps it would just be better to let the Moon give it's normal output and to induce more of it to condense in the polar cold sinks.
At this time I think the magnetic field would be a collection of magnets on the surface of the Moon, in alignment with each other for the most part.
It has been proposed for Mars, so maybe not a stupid notion to consider.
Human activity may produce escaped gasses as well, such as landing and launching spacecraft, and processing Lunar materials.
-----
Another thing that could be involved would be directing small NEO's to impact the Moon.  Some risk to Earth in doing this would have to be assessed.
But my notion is to put a variable magnetic field on to a small rubble pile to change the orbit of small NEO's to impact the Moon.  This should generate gasses, and might even allow some of the "Ores" of these objects to be processed.
I think the idea(s) are worth consideration.
Done.

Last edited by Void (2021-03-31 07:07:49)


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#36 2021-03-31 12:02:00

Void
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Posts: 3,884

Re: Potential Multi-World Future

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While the methods I have mentioned in the previous post may not yet suggest payoff for the effort, perhaps with some other factors we can get a payoff of worth.
So, if we have a network of magnetic fields on the surface of the Moon, in the hopes of capturing organic materials in particular, it could also be true that an orbiting object might lower or raise it's orbit by interacting with these fields.  The fields on the surface might actually opperate in sequence to modulate and alter their polarity as useful to change the orbit of an object in orbit with a significant magnetic field of it's own.  So, then this would be a different sort of mass driver.
It is possible that a network of magnetic fields on the surface of the Moon would in a similar way add or remove momentum from an orbiting skyhook.  However, I guess someone with better skills and interest could think that through.
The Moon, having superior solar power to Mars and the Asteroid belt, and also having a very large potential virtual labor force, it seems reasonable that metal works on it's surface could manufacture metal objects, and Oxygen in large quantities.  Those then lifted to orbit, and in many cases sent outward, perhaps with the solar wind.
But, Mars/Phobos/Deimos recieving those metal gifts, but sends back "Tar Balls" of organic materials to crash into the Moon in a controlled fashion.  So, a form of barter.  The asteroid belt joining in in much the same way, at least Ceres.
So many orbital habitats from the Earth>Mars>Ceres.
Power beams into lava tubes on the Moon and Mars, for a reliable power source.  Power beams and tether technologies to assist in transport.
Somone is talking about beamed power to boil water.  I would rather boil Lunar oxygen, or push solid oxygen out with a mass driver.  Plenty of Oxygen in the Moon, and many other places.
And of course that is not every trick that might be brought into existance.
It seems very good pleanty for everybody, except those who choose to be unhelpful.  Sometimes you have to stop rewarding bad behaviors.  If you do, they will figure it out eventually, that it is better to be useful than troublesome.
Done.


I like people who criticize angels dancing on a pinhead.  I also like it when angels dance on my pinhead.

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#37 2021-04-01 08:21:15

Void
Member
Registered: 2011-12-29
Posts: 3,884

Re: Potential Multi-World Future

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OK, this partially, sort of, suggests that there could be some support for what I have tried for on the last few posts.  I am struggling with the lack of data for Argon.  It should freeze out at the poles from what I understand.  Still perhaps it can be captured from outgassing fractures on the Moon.
https://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index … ic=45935.0
Quote:

LCROSS is fascinating not just due to water on the Moon, less
controversial by 2009, but other substances: 5.7% carbon monoxide, 1.4%
molecular hydrogen, 1.6% calcium, 1.2% mercury, 0.4% magnesium.
Sulfur is detected as hydrogen sulfide (H2S) and SO2, at levels 1/6th and
1/30th of water, respectively. Nitrogen is seen within ammonia (NH3), at
1/16th water’s abundance. Trace amounts (less than 1/30th of water) are
detected for ethane (C2H4), CO2, methanol (CH3OH), methane (CH4) and
OH. [62] Volatiles compose at least one-tenth of the soil mass. The
poles differ radically from any part of the Moon we have visited or
sampled.

So, perhaps Carbon available on the Moon per polar deposits.

I think that there is a whole lot more to learn, before we can better "See" what reality is.
Done.

Last edited by Void (2021-04-01 08:22:35)


I like people who criticize angels dancing on a pinhead.  I also like it when angels dance on my pinhead.

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#38 2021-05-31 12:31:19

Mars_B4_Moon
Member
Registered: 2006-03-23
Posts: 885

Re: Potential Multi-World Future

British Tv show

Brian Cox’s Adventures in Space and Time – Humax Pick of the Day
https://theversion.co/2021/05/30/brian- … f-the-day/
Looking to the future, Brian recalls his meeting with aerospace engineer and visionary advocate of Mars exploration Robert Zubrin. He’s credited with inspiring Elon Musk and Jeff Bezos to develop rockets with the aim of making the red planet the next frontier of human space exploration.

Professor Cox concludes that Mars will be the limit of human space exploration in our lifetime – our bodies can’t withstand the demands of travelling much deeper into the cosmos. To explore further, we must send robots in our place. Brian reveals some of his favourite probes to have uncovered the wonders of our solar system. This includes Voyager 1, whose iconic image of the earth from deep space taught us the true value of exploration: perspective.

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#39 2021-07-24 13:20:44

Terraformer
Member
From: Logres
Registered: 2007-08-27
Posts: 3,362
Website

Re: Potential Multi-World Future

Lol.

If we can make it to Mars, we can make it to the Belt. If we can make it to the Belt, Jupiter isn't beyond our grasp. Once we settle the Three Worlds (Terra, Luna, Mars), it won't be physical constraints that stop us expanding further, it will be the cost and journey time that limit demand (there is plenty of room to expand on those three, even on Terra itself still).


"I guarantee you that at some point, everything's going to go south on you, and you're going to say, 'This is it, this is how I end.' Now you can either accept that, or you can get to work." - Mark Watney

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#40 2021-07-24 17:17:09

Calliban
Member
From: Northern England, UK
Registered: 2019-08-18
Posts: 1,154

Re: Potential Multi-World Future

Welcome back Terraformer.  Good to see you are still active on the scene.


Interested in space science, engineering and technology.

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#41 2021-07-24 20:45:22

Void
Member
Registered: 2011-12-29
Posts: 3,884

Re: Potential Multi-World Future

Hi Terraformer.  Yes, your presence is valued.  Please do show up more often.

Of course you are correct.  I think that the "Starship" scheme of SpaceX is in the
correct measure.  Just able to make it to Mars Direct.

Other manufacturers will provide alternate devices as well in time, I think not that
much time.

I do not have a completed concept of how to do it, but I prefer to be incomplete to
a degree, and so I suggest the Slime-Mold concept for Starship in the future, and
also a Nuclear boost.

First the Slime-Mold.  Can act a bit like an animial if I understand it, mostly to
answer stress and to procreate.  Colonizing other planets is like procreation, and
it is also stressful.

An alternative to sending each Starship in it's own "Space" would be to send them
to orbit, and then lash a collection of them together.  Then to use nuclear boosters
to send them on their way.  That is open to interpretation.

The Nuclear component could just get them into high Earth orbit, or some kind of
method I do not know of.  Or they would travel with the "Fleet", and simply take a
~6 month free return to Earth, or just be Cast away after complete use???

As for artificial gravitation, we might consider something(s).  I like to leave that
open to other people to ponder.

I do think that nuclear has it's place on Mars also.  Some Starships will be one way.
Some might be including special one way methods.  Some might include nuclear reactors
Those could be activated upon landing or in a more risky method may actually be
activated in flight to help with propulsion.  I do understand that if a "Dirty" ship
were to crash that would not be good.  However, in that event, I think that it may
be possible to cover any radioactive materials with soil or actually remove them away
from major human locations.

As for radiation in flight, if you bundled 25 Starships, then they can to some degree
shelter each other in flight from radiation.  As for artificial gravity, I think that
for most people that only needs to be enough to run some sanitary plumbing.  Perhaps
crew needed to handle post landing may be spun around in Robert Zubrines "Tuna Cans"
perhaps a few weeks prior to landing.

Most people will be able to simply tune up their bodies after landing, if things go
correctly.

Just an attempt to show where possible assets may have been overlooked so far.

Prior to landing the assembly would be tested.  Parts might be canabalized from non
essential Starships.  Then they would separate.

And so what was by assembly a very large ship would then display ~25 separate ships
with a very larger surface area to aerobrake.

Good enough for others to be stimulated into creativity, I hope.


I like people who criticize angels dancing on a pinhead.  I also like it when angels dance on my pinhead.

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