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#1 2004-06-06 22:36:08

Alexander Sheppard
Member
Registered: 2001-09-23
Posts: 178

Re: Long-term irrelevance of human colonization

[color=#000000:post_uid0]It occurs to me that colonization of places beyond Earth by unmodified humans will eventually become largely irrelevant, as will terraformation, because there is no need for any of this when you can colonize these places with far more versatile intelligences, probably, I am assuming, ones which can transmit themselves between various bodies. Mars may be an exception to the rule because it is so close to Earth that we might colonize it before self modification gets into full swing; but in the long run this has to be true. I doubt it will fail to materialize by the end of one century, barring some disaster.[/color:post_uid0]

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#2 2004-06-07 02:15:45

MarsDog
Member
From: vancouver canada
Registered: 2004-03-24
Posts: 852

Re: Long-term irrelevance of human colonization

[color=#000000:post_uid0]A body changing intelligence would also have physical needs and desires. It would want to be in as many bodies as it could; but then each body would have different circumstances; hence it would become multiple beings.[/color:post_uid0]

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#3 2004-06-07 08:46:12

smurf975
Member
From: Netherlands
Registered: 2004-05-30
Posts: 402
Website

Re: Long-term irrelevance of human colonization

[color=#000000:post_uid0]Are you talking about cyborgs like the Borg where the consignous lives in some kind of network?

If so why do you think all humans want that? I mean you have many humans fighting against cloning, genetic modification, and abortion. What makes you think they will not be around in the future?

I for one am perfectly happy with my body. Only things I would use are tools like glasses or maybe a pacemaker but not uploading myself to a network.[/color:post_uid0]


Waht? Tehr's a preveiw buottn?

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#4 2004-06-07 12:10:55

Alexander Sheppard
Member
Registered: 2001-09-23
Posts: 178

Re: Long-term irrelevance of human colonization

[color=#000000:post_uid0]Its logical that when we have the technological capability to do so, consciousness' will transfer themselves between different bodies. There is no need to travel in one particular body when you can transit your consciousness over radio and be downloaded into a waiting body somewhere else. The stars will not be colonized by humans in spaceships.

There will doubtless be at least some people, in all the billions who are now alive, who will reject such transformations; but they will be left, inevitably, hopelessly far behind.[/color:post_uid0]

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#5 2004-06-07 12:12:34

Alexander Sheppard
Member
Registered: 2001-09-23
Posts: 178

Re: Long-term irrelevance of human colonization

[color=#000000:post_uid0]I suggest curious readers google 'transhumanism'.[/color:post_uid0]

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#6 2004-06-07 12:13:26

Bill White
Member
Registered: 2001-09-09
Posts: 2,114

Re: Long-term irrelevance of human colonization

[color=#000000:post_uid0]It occurs to me that colonization of places beyond Earth by unmodified humans will eventually become largely irrelevant, as will terraformation, because there is no need for any of this when you can colonize these places with far more versatile intelligences, probably, I am assuming, ones which can transmit themselves between various bodies. Mars may be an exception to the rule because it is so close to Earth that we might colonize it before self modification gets into full swing; but in the long run this has to be true. I doubt it will fail to materialize by the end of one century, barring some disaster.[/color:post_uid0][/quote:post_uid0]
[color=#000000:post_uid0]Yet they shall still be our children, right?

Trans-humanism is one of those developments like robust, plentiful nano-tech, which shall so change everything that we are today unable to predict through that change. A behavioral "event horizon" so to speak.

Do you believe the prospects of transhumanism justifies not undertaking the settlement of space?[/color:post_uid0]

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#7 2004-06-07 12:24:01

GCNRevenger
Member
From: Earth
Registered: 2003-10-14
Posts: 6,056

Re: Long-term irrelevance of human colonization

[color=#000000:post_uid0]Oh I think it will be a looong time before we can... or will... transfer ourselves digitally like that and such.

The nanotech future is really beginning to make my chemists' eyes sparkle... the idea of programmable matter imparticularly, the creation of "synthetic phantom atoms" that you can change to other atoms at will with the flip of a switch... iron that becomes aluminum, lead that becomes gold... solid bricks that become complicated machines... all feather-light without those cumbersome protons and neutrons. When that world comes, ours will look so backward and primitive that we wouldn't dare to presume to shake our heads at the science of the 1700's with their four humors and such.

Science? Magic? Yes.[/color:post_uid0]


"The power of accurate observation is often called cynicism by those that do not have it." - George Bernard Shaw

The glass is at 50% of capacity

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#8 2004-06-07 13:24:09

Josh Cryer
Administrator
Registered: 2001-09-29
Posts: 3,830

Re: Long-term irrelevance of human colonization

[color=#000000:post_uid0]As far as I understand, nanotechnology does not propose changing the elemental nature of matter from one thing to the next (ie, lead into gold), it only suggests the possiblity of creating "stuff" with just energy and the basic elements. Right now, for example, a device like a TV requires tens of thousands of laborers to design and create it, however theoretically with nanotechnology (and universial assemblers, mind you), such a TV would be able to be made in house without any afterthought.

Alexander's comments are of course valid, I too see the future being humans transferring themselves into mechanical substrates and propelling themselves off into the universe, it's just that I do not think that this means the end of the classification we currently consider human, because it's still theoretically possible to recreate your own DNA somewhere in the cosmos once you reach your destination and reimplant yourself back into your body. Science fiction discusses such possibilities with transporters (ie, your molocules are discombobulated and recombined later in time at a different destination), it's just that people don't think about it in that case.

Of course, in the short term, and certainly within our lifetimes, the other kind of travel is totally possible, and in many ways necessary since the transhumanist tech is at least a few hundred or so years off.[/color:post_uid0]


Some useful links while MER are active. Offical site NASA TV JPL MER2004 Text feed
--------
The amount of solar radiation reaching the surface of the earth totals some 3.9 million exajoules a year.

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#9 2004-06-07 14:08:55

Alexander Sheppard
Member
Registered: 2001-09-23
Posts: 178

Re: Long-term irrelevance of human colonization

[color=#000000:post_uid0]It isn't known how far off post-human creatures may be. I tend to think fifty to a hundred years is a reasonable projection, barring some disaster or even self-annihalation, which is possible. It is reasonable to suggest that in a hundred years humans as they exist today will be largely irrelevant in terms of doing anything new.

One has to remember that we have probably come farther during this century, measured in any number of ways, than in the whole millenium before that. We advanced more in life expectancy, at least in the rich industrialized nations, than during the entire history the species before that.

There are some worrying trends, notably the global economic slowdown following the mid to late-1970s, and an increasingly dangerous international situation, which could lead to a disaster: that is true.

I would suggest that the most efficient way to propagate intelligence throughout the universe would be to send a tiny probe which can produce bodies capable of being animated by intelligence, and then to relay a consciousness from the mother star over radio (or alternatively, produce a new one, which might be more exciting and rewarding).[/color:post_uid0]

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#10 2004-06-07 14:15:03

Josh Cryer
Administrator
Registered: 2001-09-29
Posts: 3,830

Re: Long-term irrelevance of human colonization

[color=#000000:post_uid0]Perhaps the notion of "relevancy" will become null and void by that point. People will still exist, and do all sorts of cool stuff, but no one will look at it from the point of view of "greatness." We'll be spread throughtout the cosmos, each and every part just about as significant as the next.[/color:post_uid0]


Some useful links while MER are active. Offical site NASA TV JPL MER2004 Text feed
--------
The amount of solar radiation reaching the surface of the earth totals some 3.9 million exajoules a year.

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#11 2004-06-07 14:16:42

GCNRevenger
Member
From: Earth
Registered: 2003-10-14
Posts: 6,056

Re: Long-term irrelevance of human colonization

[color=#000000:post_uid0]Ah but they aren't really atoms Josh... a quantum nanodot, essentially an electron "trap," you pump electrons into the trap and it holds them. Now here is the creepy part... the electrons in the trap will arrange themselves [i:post_uid0]much like an atomic orbital[/i:post_uid0]. The way "regular" atoms behave is almost entirely controlled by the behavior of their electrons except for their weight and some intermolecular forces. So, in effect, the quantum dot contains "phantom" atoms that can be configured by adding or subtracting electrons at will... you can make the electron shell for lead, and the phantom atoms will act like lead. Remove electrons, pow, you've got Iron complete with its magnetic and conductive properties. It gets even wierder that the dot can make atoms that are "between" and beyond the elements on the periodic table...

Creepy stuff, ey?

I think "beyond humans" will take a little while, because people are attached to their bodies... though I agree that the notion you see on the street that "science is slowing down" and whatnot is nonsense... its just getting more complex than many people understand.[/color:post_uid0]


"The power of accurate observation is often called cynicism by those that do not have it." - George Bernard Shaw

The glass is at 50% of capacity

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#12 2004-06-07 14:18:12

Alexander Sheppard
Member
Registered: 2001-09-23
Posts: 178

Re: Long-term irrelevance of human colonization

[color=#000000:post_uid0]Well, by relevancy I mean in a position to explore things that consciousness has not already explored, or do things, etc. To be on the cutting edge, so to speak.

One might note that humans are now the 'relevant' species on this planet, that position no longer being held by apes, who do dwell in their place. I think any future post humans will probably exceed present humans on a similar scale.[/color:post_uid0]

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#13 2004-06-07 14:20:31

Alexander Sheppard
Member
Registered: 2001-09-23
Posts: 178

Re: Long-term irrelevance of human colonization

[color=#000000:post_uid0]Actually, in science I don't really know what trends have been appearing over the last quarter century or so. From an economic standpoint the trends are very worrying, global GNP growth has slowed down to match periods back in the 19th century. Hopefully this is an aberration; actually I think it is a political matter whether it will be one or not.[/color:post_uid0]

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#14 2004-06-07 18:14:40

Shaun Barrett
Member
From: Cairns, Queensland, Australia
Registered: 2001-12-28
Posts: 2,843

Re: Long-term irrelevance of human colonization

[color=#000000:post_uid9]I haven't heard of these phantom atoms before, GCNR. It must be quite tricky to persuade all those negatively charged electrons to cosy up to one another in familiar electron-shell format, without the electro-positive protons they usually have available in a nucleus to keep them from straying (?).
    And, if you have to keep them cooped up in that 'trap' you mentioned, doesn't that mean they're just interesting curiosities? I mean you can't take them out of the trap and use them for anything practical, can you?
                                                          ???[/color:post_uid9]


The word 'aerobics' came about when the gym instructors got together and said: If we're going to charge $10 an hour, we can't call it Jumping Up and Down.   - Rita Rudner

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#15 2004-06-07 18:19:34

Ian Flint
Banned
From: Colorado
Registered: 2003-09-24
Posts: 437

Re: Long-term irrelevance of human colonization

[color=#000000:post_uid0]Here's the disaster that you fear:

http://www.oilcrisis.com/midpoint.htm

I hope we can smoothly make the transition to renewable energy, but I predict a rocky road.[/color:post_uid0]

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#16 2004-06-07 18:46:22

smurf975
Member
From: Netherlands
Registered: 2004-05-30
Posts: 402
Website

Re: Long-term irrelevance of human colonization

[color=#000000:post_uid1]

I haven't heard of these phantom atoms before, GCNR. It must be quite tricky to persuade all those negatively charged electrons to cosy up to one another in familiar electron-shell format, without the electro-positive protons they usually have available in a nucleus to keep them from straying (?).
    And, if you have to keep them cooped up in that 'trap' you mentioned, doesn't that mean they're just interesting curiosities? I mean you can't take them out of the trap and use them for anything practical, can you?
                                                          ???[/quote:post_uid1]
Well if you have a television or computer monitor. You might be already using such a device. However not as advanced as what a phantom particle would need (not arguing that its possible or not possible)

Your TV, Monitor has a electron canon. The cathode ray tube generates electrons and they are bombarded to the phosfor layer on your screen. However your TV, monitor uses a magnetic force to control the direction of the electron beam. So it sends the beam from left to right and from top to bottom to create an image.

Read more hereRead more here[/color:post_uid1]


Waht? Tehr's a preveiw buottn?

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#17 2004-06-08 23:03:58

smurf975
Member
From: Netherlands
Registered: 2004-05-30
Posts: 402
Website

Re: Long-term irrelevance of human colonization

[color=#000000:post_uid1]I just came across Ralph Brave reports in Salon: Princeton's Dyson has his own ideas on what is to be done and it reminded me of this thread.[/color:post_uid1]


Waht? Tehr's a preveiw buottn?

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#18 2004-06-09 18:47:52

Josh Cryer
Administrator
Registered: 2001-09-29
Posts: 3,830

Re: Long-term irrelevance of human colonization

[color=#000000:post_uid0]GCNRevenger, ahh, I assumed that such transformations weren't permanent though. If they were, then the implications would be more far reaching than I could imagine. Just googled for the things you mentioned, and it seems they may be, too. Very interesting, very interesting indeed.

Alexander,

Well, by relevancy I mean in a position to explore things that consciousness has not already explored, or do things, etc. To be on the cutting edge, so to speak.[/quote:post_uid0]

I don't think that matters, though. Say some of Iain Banks' Minds explore the whole galaxy in a matter of a few thousand years (it would take an individual human many hundreds of millions of years to go to each and every system; a high level intelligence could expand exponentially, and do it in a few thousand years), just because we then "know" everything about the galaxy (I assume the repository such a mind made would be openly available) does not depreciate "inferior" beings learning or discovering also. This mindset is kind of crappy, I'd say, it implies that nothing can be enjoyed unless it's exclusive.[/color:post_uid0]


Some useful links while MER are active. Offical site NASA TV JPL MER2004 Text feed
--------
The amount of solar radiation reaching the surface of the earth totals some 3.9 million exajoules a year.

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#19 2004-06-09 20:03:41

Alexander Sheppard
Member
Registered: 2001-09-23
Posts: 178

Re: Long-term irrelevance of human colonization

[color=#000000:post_uid0]Well, provided we can all get along, I agree. But what I mean is that lesser civilization will always be subject to the whim of those which are on a higher plane of technology.

Perhaps we have some reason for optimism at least, because, we have been allowed to survive so far. So either intelligent life is an extraordinarily rare phenomenon, or advanced civilizations have deigned to leave us alone.

Speaking of which, it is actually possible that extraterrestrials have studied humans already, but with very small or microscopic spaceships undetectable to us. I have no idea on the likelihood of this, of course, but it seems the best way to do it, if they were going to.[/color:post_uid0]

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#20 2004-06-09 21:43:17

Josh Cryer
Administrator
Registered: 2001-09-29
Posts: 3,830

Re: Long-term irrelevance of human colonization

[color=#000000:post_uid0]That is definitely true, and a very real possiblity I myself really don't like, which is when I talk about self replicating technology (so that one can colonize Mars effectively) not necessarily involving AI (or high level AI). But of course, it's going to happen, so we'd just have to hope that such AI/extended intelligences will be held to the same standard as we hold to ourselves (well, we are hypocrites in practice, but think the perfect ideal). At least they would be able to hold themselves to such a standard with all the resources they would have at their disposal. Which is essentially the point Iain Banks makes in his Culture series, the "whim" of those higher on the intelligence level tends to be less and less... irrational. And those who decide to be irrational, will have to deal with those who [i:post_uid0]are[/i:post_uid0] rational.

All we can hope for is that there is more of the latter and less of the former.

And yeah, the "aliens are microscopic" argument has been noted by Kurzweil before, with regards to the Singularity.[/color:post_uid0]


Some useful links while MER are active. Offical site NASA TV JPL MER2004 Text feed
--------
The amount of solar radiation reaching the surface of the earth totals some 3.9 million exajoules a year.

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#21 2021-07-14 06:22:26

Mars_B4_Moon
Member
Registered: 2006-03-23
Posts: 884

Re: Long-term irrelevance of human colonization

I don't see it as an irrelevance ...in the end whatever is put our there in some says will still represent humanity even if it goes into trans-human post-humanism philosophy

Machine men, Genetic Engineered, Clones, Cyborgs?

Korean research team has developed an artificial sensory interface system that mimics the human body’s neural signals
http://koreabizwire.com/new-artificial- … ion/194325

Naturally see Clone happenings in nature?
In 1990 a bee learned to clone herself - now her army of millions threaten other species
https://news.sky.com/story/in-1990-a-be … s-12343956
Russia and Cows ... engeering Bovine to produce lactose-free milk
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech … rance.html


Elon Frankenmusk Wants to Turn You into a Cyborg...'Have you heard about Elon Musk’s telepathy project, Neuralink?'
https://www.counterpunch.org/2021/07/02 … -a-cyborg/

Last edited by Mars_B4_Moon (2021-07-14 06:23:55)

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