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#1 2021-07-08 11:49:39

Void
Member
Registered: 2011-12-29
Posts: 4,792

Terraforming Mars, and connecting it functions to the other planemos

Terraforming Mars, and connecting it functions to the other planemos.

This depends as an offshoot or "Terraforming Earth".  At it's post #11.

I have formulated the topics title here so that it is possible to relate an increasingly
Terraformed Mars to other things like the Asteroid Belt and Earth/Moon, without exposing
the materials to the "Off Topic" show stopper.

First of all it is currently speculated that 16 Psyche is a rubble pile, and not a whole
planetary core.  It is possibly composed of ~10% Carbonacious materials.  It is also now
thought to have a great deal of VOID spaces.  These things are not yet proven very well.
However, for me if aproximately true, it makes this asteroid quite a prise.  If it is as
suggested, then the metallic core of one of the parent asteroids was shattered.  To me
this says that study of it is facilitated, and that various metals will be available to
access.  Nuclear fuels, and also metals for Heliostats.  So much energy.  Unlike small
rubble piles, it should have some reasonable amount of gravity.  Not a lot, but perhaps
enough to favor working with machinery on and inside of the object.

https://astronomynow.com/2021/06/11/16- … y-thought/
https://www.universetoday.com/151531/as … bble-pile/
https://www.firstpost.com/tech/science/ … 16321.html


So, what about Mars?  Well, it seems that it could be a refueling station for trips to
asteroids, 16 Psyche maybe.  Mars may also have two rubble pile moons.  We can't be sure,
but they appear to be very porous.  So, methods for them may to a degree apply to
16 Psyche.

About Martian Dust Storms:
https://www.universetoday.com/14892/mars-dust-storms/
Quote:

Surprisingly, many of the dust storms on the planet originate from one impact basin.
Hellas Basin is the deepest impact crater in the Solar System. It was formed more than
three billion years ago during the Late Bombardment Period when a very large asteroid hit
the surface of Mars. The temperatures at the bottom of the crater can be 10 degrees warmer
than on the surface and the crater is deeply filled with dust. The difference in temperature
fuels wind action that picks up the dust, then storm emerge from the basin.

The low spots on Mars includes Hellas, and much of the Northern Hemisphere.  And the big canyons.

Where some doom sayers claim that there is not enough suitable materials on Mars to Terraform
Mars, I dispute this.
Steps possible include:
1) Vaporize CO2 of the ice caps, pressure in Hellas is now an aproximate maximum of 11.5 mkBar.
adding the polar CO2 to the atmosphere should bring the max pressure in Hellas to >23 mBar.
2) Inject water vapor into the upper atmosphere of Mars.  This should split into Oxygen and
Hydrogen, adding a magnetic field to Mars, should help the Oxygen to stick around.  I don't know
how high the air pressure could be increased, but probabbly 1/3 Bar is possible.  The time for
this to be achieved is unknown.
3) Bake rock to get atmospheric components, and Metals.  Planetary magnetic field desired.

Notes:
-The use of Methane to warm Mars may not work.  It appears that our probes indicate that at night
Methane can appear, but by day it is consumed by some process.
-Hellas has ice in its Southern portions. 
-It may be possible that there could be arteasian water under the permafrost of Hellas--
-CO2 condensates in the southern winter could damage equipment.

Obviously I am very interested in Heliostats.  I think that whole forrests of them should be created
on Mars, and so to collect energy, stiffle dust storms, and create atmospheric gasses from
regolith/dust.  And in a hot process perhaps to generate metals and ceramics to build still more
heliostats, and other things.

If Hellas were completely filled with Heliostats, it would be an amazing thing, and very good for
terraforming and also having bulk wealth for humans on Mars.

We probably have trouble accepting such a prospect, but if Elon Musk is correct, robots will not too
long from now do virtually all the work.  If they don't kill us off, then they can make forests
of Heliostats on Mars, and other places.

From the topic "Terraforming Earth", materials about storing high temperature energy can be found.

If heat were stored in "Salt Baths", and dust and other regolith disolved into them, the
British/Europeans have macinery that can extract O2 or CO2 from the disolved materials.  This can
also produce metals.

So first stiffle the dust storms, and then consume the dust  If the dust does not have enough materials
for atmosphere, then use rocks.

The salt baths obviously will store energy, in case there is a major dust storm.

I think that using a forest of heliostats in Hellas, (And other places), may allow surface water deposits.
If the atmospheric pressure is increased, the heliostats may even become condensers.  The floor of the
crater can be cooled, by blocking, reflecting, and capturing solar energy.

I agree with some here that there would also need to be fision nuclear power, for a safety measure.

Done.


Done.

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#2 2021-07-09 07:04:46

Calliban
Member
From: Northern England, UK
Registered: 2019-08-18
Posts: 2,061

Re: Terraforming Mars, and connecting it functions to the other planemos

Large scale colonisation of Mars, if it involves setting up transparent structures on the Martian surface, will result in a gradual increase in planetary surface temperature (the literal greenhouse effect).  Nuclear or fusion reactors will produce waste heat, which will also warm the planet.  Solar panels would reflect into space less incident solar radiation than the regolith that they sit upon.  So human colonisation of Mars will naturally increase surface temperature, regardless of anything human beings might deliberately do to that effect.  This will increase the equilibrium concentration of water vapour in the lower atmosphere, which will function as a greenhouse gas and will undergo photochemical decomposition into hydrogen and oxygen.

Simply warming the Martian surface will result in a the gradual increase in abundance of oxygen in the atmosphere.  However, if liquid water began to form in abundance, atmospheric CO2 would dissolve into it, reacting with dissolved bases to form carbonates (the Martian regolith is highly basic).  This will tend to hold atmospheric pressure down.  So building up a thick atmosphere could take a very long time.  We could speed the process up by directly injecting water vapour into the upper atmosphere, by pumping water up tall towers, built on top of Olympus Mons.  Olympus Mons is just shy of 22km high.  The Martian ozone layer sits beneath 30km and the UV scattering dust in the Martian atmosphere does not rise above 20km, as witnessed by Mariner 4.  So a 10km tower should be tall enough to inject water into the upper atmosphere.

Towers would probably be constructed from multiple carbon steel pipes.  The tower would be built in sections, with about 30m of clustered steel pipes supporting a platform above them, with 333 segments constituting a 10km tall tower.  At the centre of the tower would be well, through which cranes would lift the pipes and platform sections to allow the tower to be assembled incrementally.  This arrangement also allows damaged parts of the tower to be replaced without compromising its overall structural integrity.  Each platform would be braced to the ground by long, basalt fibre bracing cables.  This will prevent the tower from swaying in response to wind loading or impact.  Water would be pumped up the tower using single stage centrifugal pumps on each platform.  Each platform will contain a discharge tank, into which water from the previous stage discharges.  In this way, each set of pumps need only provide about 1.2bar of total head.  This allows energy efficient operation without cavitation.  At the top of the tower, high pressure, multistage centrifugal pumps will discharge the water from the tower at pressure of 300 bar.  This ensures that each droplet has sufficient angular momentum to atomise it and also disperses the water into a very large volume of atmosphere.

To build up a 150mbar oxygen atmosphere on Mars would require about 600trillion tonnes of water vapour to fully dissociate into hydrogen and oxygen.  If we were to achieve this over a period of 200 years, say, and 100% of the water that we injected were to dissociate, then the towers would need to inject water at a rate of 95,000 cubic metres per second.  If pump efficiency was 70%, the power requirements of the tower and the pumps at the base of Olmpus Mons, would be 10.5TW (10,500GW) (95,000 tonnes of water raised by a 30,000m head in Martian gravity - pipe friction ignored).  This is about twice the electricity consumption of mankind at present.  So it is a big task.  But maybe not beyond a 22nd Century Martian Republic, which by that time should have fusion reactors and a population of at least 1 billion people.

How big would the tower need to be?  Water pipelines on Earth tend to limit water flow speeds to 3m/s in order to keep pumping friction losses low.  If take 3m/s as a reasonable flow speed, then to pump 95,000t/s, tower cross section must be 32,000m2.  That is a tower some 200m in diameter, or multiple smaller towers with the same cross section.

Additional sources of water may lie in the outer belt.  If these could be delivered to Mars orbit cheaply, then they could be used to saturate the upper atmosphere in water vapour.  However, the energy cost of doing so will be at least an order of magnitude greater than achieving the same result using Martian water.

Last edited by Calliban (2021-07-09 08:25:15)


"Plan and prepare for every possibility, and you will never act. It is nobler to have courage as we stumble into half the things we fear than to analyse every possible obstacle and begin nothing. Great things are achieved by embracing great dangers."

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#3 2021-07-09 18:40:17

Void
Member
Registered: 2011-12-29
Posts: 4,792

Re: Terraforming Mars, and connecting it functions to the other planemos

Calliban,

I enjoyed your post.  If I were to live into the future, I could say that for Mars,
It appears that a balancing act may be wanted.

I will include some references, and then refer to them.

Ice clouds may warm Mars:
https://www.lpi.usra.edu/planetary_news … arly-mars/

Raging Rivers perhaps even 1 billion years ago:
https://www.space.com/mars-big-rivers-b … years.html

And in my previoius post it is noted that often about every 3 years large dust storms emerge, quite
often from Hallas.

Underground Ice Cap on North Pole:
https://news.agu.org/press-release/mult … polar-ice/

So, for Mars there is a Lithosphere, a Hydrosphere, and an Atmosphere.  For humans to live on Mars,
for any extent of time, modification sre required.

In this other topic, a question is asked: "Index» Human missions» Is Mars a hellhole?"

Elon Musk says he wants 1,000,000 people in a city on Mars.  Now divide that by the total human
population in existance.  I bad with this.  I think that their are 2 different types of billions.

I will go with ~8,000,000,000.  Precision has it's place, but not here.  So, 1,000,000/8,000,000,000=
0.0000125.  So am I right to say 0.00125 percent of humans on Mars, in Elons prescription?  For one
thing, It would not be smart to send people who will not be likely to adapt.  And we should have
a subset of humans who can deal best with that notion of moving to Mars.

And so, we should impose very little unhappynesses on the human race as a whole, and for many who may
try to do Mars, there may be satisfaction.  Suffering is not gauranteed.  It is certainly a possible
part of the mix for a pioneer.

My first Mars would be only the population that would support expansion to the asteroid belt, and
the initiation of terraforming of Mars.  How many more people to become Martians from other parts
of the solar system would be determined by market conditions I would expect.  The carryihg capacity
of Mars should increase with time and terraforming, if it is done correctly.

Intermission.....I think I may sinse future Martians.  (Actually I also am tired and there is so much
more to say, but lets have some fun, I will return soon).

https://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=he … M%3DHDRSC3

Done for now.......


Done.

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#4 2021-07-09 20:33:24

Void
Member
Registered: 2011-12-29
Posts: 4,792

Re: Terraforming Mars, and connecting it functions to the other planemos

Calliban,

To continue:

I feel that based on prvious posts, it may exist, the ability to lever Mars into
what I consider the desired situation.  Dust storms under control, and intertwined
with that atmospheric water vapor under control.

We do not want raging rivers on Mars, in the conditions where they interact with
atmosphere and dust and other regiolith materials.  That will suck the atmosphere
down.

So, the objective is to control them just to the point of being out of control.

A fine nife edge.  I have mentioned Heliostats.  I believe that they can be a useful
tool.

Many other tools are desired.  I have not yet so much mentioned the moons of Mars,
and what might be done with them or orbital solar power.

I am not an opponent of nuclear power, I would want it in the mix.

Tired, nite.

Done.


Done.

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#5 2021-07-10 04:16:21

Void
Member
Registered: 2011-12-29
Posts: 4,792

Re: Terraforming Mars, and connecting it functions to the other planemos

From Terraforming Earth (Topic):  Post #3

An energy storage method that is down to Earth smile
https://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=ho … &FORM=VIRE
I think that the simplicity of the above system has it's merits.  Just to use up junk electrical power.

And then a Heliostat System showing some promise:

I am going to hunt down a reference which I place elsewhere on this site, where storage temperatures of 1000 deg. C are
mentioned.  Such a system might allow not just the heating of buildings, but perhaps even the generation of electricity
on demand 24/7.

https://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=ho … &FORM=VIRE

OK, I think the above is helpful.

Imagine a planet that was as smooth as a cue ball.  Put Heliostat systems all over it. 

You could do many things with that.  You could cool the planet by reflecting light
from the sun out into space.  You could heat up rocks and store energy.  You may
be able to do some hot industrial processes.

Should your cue ball planet have the nature of Mars except for the elevations,
you might evaporate water into the lower atmosphere, using the heat collected.
This then might produce a greenhouse effect in the lower atmosphere.  Before
the water vapor / fog were to condense on to the ground, perhaps in the poles,
you might use the heliostats to heat it up more, and cause a suction that would
pull it to the high atmosphere.

In a way this would be to simulate what is thought to have happened to Venus.
But here we would hope to be able to prevent it from "Running Away".  I am
rather confident that that is possible.

I think it will also be possible to control the amount of nucleation points in the
atmosphere, and I hope that that could focus on the high cloud formation that
is apparently desirable.  We might get the nucleation points from the Martian
moons, or by creating a dust devil using heliostats.

Now allowing Mars to have Topography again:

But we want to try to suppress dust storms, and might do that by preventing
the events that "Ignite" one.  In Hellas this might be done by rejecting sunlight
into the sky, or even by storing the energy in rocks.

Source of water could be the Ice Caps.  Perhaps Heliostats around them can
evaporate them, and also serve to cause the vapors to continue rising to the
high atmospheres.  Or the high mountains with glaciers might be a water source.

In both situations, the Heliostats would only do this service part time, and could
perform other functions as the sun moves through the sky.

If there is Artesian water in low spots, then water could come from wells.

Another more advanced method would be to actually melt a river from the south
polar ice cap and with the river and tunnels, direct a flow down into Hellas.  Such
a river could likely be ice covered for the most part.  This could of course provide
Hydro-Electric power on Mars.

Orbital assets could also be involved, such as the moons of Mars, and orbital
solar power plants, which could also be used to microwave water/vapors from on
high.

-----

I am also thinking of balls of lava floating in orbit, as an energy storage device. 
These might be heated with concentrating mirrors, and given insulating surrounds.
Energy could be extracted from the to Mars at certain parts of an orbit.  The simple  method would be to simply open a window pointing to the ground.  More
complex of course would be to convert the energy to electricity and then project
Lasers or Microwaves to the ground.

The thing about these lava balls is that you could extract the Metals, and Oxygen,
perhaps even water and Nitrogen, if there is any.  The lava ball would then just be
liquid slag.

So, then this is another source of atmosphere that may have potential.

Done

Last edited by Void (2021-07-10 04:45:33)


Done.

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#6 2021-07-10 08:14:07

Void
Member
Registered: 2011-12-29
Posts: 4,792

Re: Terraforming Mars, and connecting it functions to the other planemos

Calliban,

Continuing;

I am not sure of this, but I suggest that if a sufficiently large magnetic field(s)
were imposed around Mars, Oxygen from it's moons could be used as a propellant, and
if not expelled too fast, it may be locked into a suborbital path around Mars and may
impact the atmosphere adding to it.  Of course also to some degree Oxygen expelled
as propulsion mass might be more aimed at the atmosphere.  Not sure how that would
work out.  Of course if by combustion, of Hydrogen and Methane, then some of the water
and CO2 might accumulate in the atmosphere where it entered.

The Heliostats on the ground or on the moons of Mars could be used to deliver
concentrated energy to ships traveling in the Martian gravity well.  It is very much
less likely that a steam ship could be launched from the surface of Mars, but I
mention it anyway.

So indeed as has been mentioned on occassion, the Martian hill sphere could be filled
with machinery and habitats for humans with synthetic gravity or without it.

If Phobos and Deimos do not have water or other materials, I think that to some
degree it can be brought in from Mars or maybe the asteroid belt.

Peoples of Mars will not necessarily dwell, in dark depressing caves in the lithosphere.

Other methods of propulsion could include shooting O2 ice cubes out with mass driver
methods, and still other hot options might eventually work out.

Done


Done.

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#7 2021-08-27 20:52:23

Void
Member
Registered: 2011-12-29
Posts: 4,792

Re: Terraforming Mars, and connecting it functions to the other planemos

I was working things out in my head, and remembered GW Johnson's "Mushroom House".

While it is debatable how much he may want me on his side, I found that his concept could be quite useful to high latitude habitations, in my opinion.  I tried to search for it, and got some leads, it is on this site somewhere.....

If I remember it correctly, it is circular in footprint, and has a roof of regolith.  It has windows on the sides.  While I cannot suggest that the author of that is comfortable with my style of method.... smile  Still I found what I wanted.  And I do want it.

While I would also  like to see how humans could inhabit the low latitudes of Mars, I find that his structure as I remember it will be very good at high latitudes.

Here I started on the north polar ice cap of Mars.  I anticipated that fission nuclear energy could be included, in a scale that might make sense, and be rather safer than the nuclear boo-boo's that have happened on Earth.

I do agree with GW Johnson that domes are not to be trusted, or I would say they will be hard to make safe.

Radiation on Mars although not as bad as the orbit of Mars is typically not good.

However, for the Mushroom House of our great member, Mars blocks much of it. and a roof of regolith may likewise do so, especially if it is in part ice.  Ice is quite permitted on the Martian poles.

I feel the design is very good, as the vertical is compressive, and the glass walls can be assisted in retention against failure by tensile bands/cables/etc.

The purpose of glass walls is to let light in.  We prefer to let in photons that plants and humans are compatible with.  We wish to block out toxic photons, and also radiations.

Being at high latitudes would be similar to being in the Earth's arctic.  The sun for ~1/2 the year circles near or somewhat above the horizon.  So, the Mushroom house could receive this input.  How to filter good and bad photons, is another matter to be addressed after considering the more basic nature of the proposal.

We do have this....The GCR and Photons/radiation from the sun, will travel through more atmosphere, as they are coming in at an angle to get into the windows.

And this will attenuate all the radiation/photons getting inside the Mushroom House.  However we may use dumb and smart mirrors to upgrade the amount of good photons getting into the house, and still not increase by much the amount of hostile radiation/photons.

So, I like it.

While I have said Polar ice caps, I actually indicate high latitudes with or without regolith covering over ice.

I have been fearful of building in the latitudes where CO2 frost occurs as I presume it could damage the things built, but I have since realized that if you have stored or present energy, you may use the CO2 precipitation as a coolant.

The thing Mars has to offer include a cold heat sink.  Particularly at the polar ice caps, and particularly in the winter.  But even better to evaporate the condensates of CO2 in the winter, by using Fission power.  That of course to heat the structures and to generate electric power.

So, then this is a solar and Nuclear fission notion.  In the summers, where it is the land(s) of the midnight sun, then grow much food.  Freeze and Freeze dry much of it.

So, dust storms?  Well you have nuclear included.  It and stored food and Oxygen will not lead to the death of the Martian habitations.

I'm tired.  Good Night.  Pretty happy.

Done.

Oh cold pressurized tunnels in ice can connect a bunch of Mushroom Houses together.  I like the notion anyway.

Now Done.

Last edited by Void (2021-08-27 21:16:23)


Done.

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#8 2021-09-13 21:30:57

Void
Member
Registered: 2011-12-29
Posts: 4,792

Re: Terraforming Mars, and connecting it functions to the other planemos

I am rather pleased.  I believe I can post here in Terraforming, as I think that
what has come to light could become a very powerful tool for use on Mars, and I
suppose could be considered moving Mars in a direction to become more Earth like.

Background:
Index» Human missions» Air. Shelter. Water. Food. Posts #458-#500.
Index» Human missions» Earths Oceans Explored - but why not colonized Post #101.

I have been puzzling about lakes and solare ane fission energy for quite some time.
I believe now that I have a very good thing for direction on that.

I think bigger is better.

Of course I am talking about towers that are targeted with multiple Heliostats.

Where it is often the case that such towers, collect high temperature heat into
a fluid and a collector.  Perhaps rocks.

In the Martian environment there is GCR, Solar Flair and other hard radiations,
Ultra Violet light, Visible Light and Infrared light.

My hope is to collect as much energy as possible from the tower, and to reject
the GCR, and hard radiation.  The end process hopefully would yield visible light
into growth chambers.  The step before that might be a combination of visible light
and U.V. light.

In addition, my intention is that the thermal energy would be drawn into the system.

-----

Previously I sought to use transparent coverings, that could tollerat U.V., and
reject it.

Now instead I intend to have light collectors with a light pipe to bring light into
the lake.  In addition that would be a heat exchanger,   It may bring heat in at times,
or may reject heat to the sky at other times.

I don't care if the light transmission into the lake is not very efficient.  As long
as some percentage of it can go to gardens, then that along with the heat collected
will be very worthwhile.

Using tall towers, the heat can be kept away from the ice surrounding the tower, as
the fluid carrying pipes can be embedded into an insulated and protective part of the
tower passing through the ice.

For the light, at this time, I guess I like various transparancy notions.  Perhaps
Alum.

And for gardens, now I think of a cone with the base on the bottom of the body of
water.

In the case where water is in the cones, for aquiculture, the cone does not have to
be all that strong.  However it could be a heat exchanger.  Other members have
suggested that a defuser will be helpful.

For gardens in air, then the cone walls need to be thick.  Then regolith can be
piled on top of the cone walls to help hold it down as to not float.

-----

Lots of metals and other materials will be needed.

Perhaps the British/European machine, maybe asteroids.

https://www.esa.int/Enabling_Support/Sp … f_moondust

I seem to recall that it works better to create metals, and expel CO2, which should be something that can work on Mars.  This would be a way to create more atmosphere as well as the metals.

I will refine this better later.  Very tired.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2021-09-13 21:33:53)


Done.

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#9 2021-09-14 11:00:20

Void
Member
Registered: 2011-12-29
Posts: 4,792

Re: Terraforming Mars, and connecting it functions to the other planemos

Well Calliban a while back mentioned "Hydrilla" and "Mushrooms", in a post in:
"Index» Human missions» Air. Shelter. Water. Food."

I would consider that to be a relatively low hanging fruit to obtain resources.

A lower level would be to grow microbes, either by chemosynthesis, or photosynthesis.

Not a wrong thing, but perhaps less productive as per use to humans on Mars.

We expect that if we grow microbes, then something like zooplankton have to eat that,
then someing like a fish has to eat that and then you may have produced a food.

So, Mars largely regarded as a dead planet, but on the edge of life, humans could
perhaps produce machines to breath life into the planet.  If I were to set my goals
per that, it would be to get to the minimum.  Mine currently is Hydrilla and Mushrooms.

That is not to say that humans would not need other foods, say from LED greenhouses,
but this would be a plausable method of producing callories of use and some neutrition.

------

So, I am going to try to suggest a minimal system that could begin the creation of
liquid water on Mars.  Liquid water, neutrition, and an energy source being a beginning.

A machine that can help create lakes, seas, and oceans on Mars.  "Lake Maker".

This is to minimize the machines I spoke of in the just prior post.  What is the
minimum productive machine?

These would be robots, rather simple robots, Heliostats, and reciever towers.  Mirror
cleaner methods needed also per (th), and Spacenuts posts in a topic mentioned in the
previous post.

A possible machine of use would involve a cone shaped tower, with a solar delivery
cavity/collector.  all of these robots would likely have solar pannels included, as
the scale to make power from boil and condense is not so practical on the small scale.
It is not rules out, but for now I avoid that complication.

The tower pehaps being a cone, significant solar pannels can be on it.

Sime thermal insulation methods needed where the cone penetrates ice.  I believe it can
be done, I do not wish to obcess about it for now.

So, up in the reciever cavity may be an Alon assited window, to allow some light into
the interior of the cone.  Just raw light including U.V.

The interior of the cone can be pressurized using electricty from the solar cells.
Pressurized with Martian atmosphere.  Where usually I try to use water ice in a scheme.
In this case, I don't care if it melts inside the cone.  So, no defuser, and U.V.
allowed into the lake. 

This is to capture heat and melt ice.  Of course the ice on the surface of the lake
needs to be assisted to continuing existing.  Part of the method of maintaining the
ice is the shade from a forest of Heliostats, and even cone towers.

Other could be that you take most of the soil off of the ice and put down some vapor
barrier and put the smaller amount of soil on it.  There is room for invention.

So, this device would not be that great yet for farming.  But it would melt water, and
that could give shelter to humans under water.  With the use of habitat devices. As
far as life, some microbes might do OK.  Radiolysis in the lake bottom would be a
starting ecology.

------

Adding a deffuser and U.V. shielding at some point would help a lot.  Another thing
would be to add a fluid using heat exchanger to the solar cavity at the top of the cone.

I will be back, with what I think can be the first aquaculture compatible version with
those types of additional parts.

Done.


Done.

Online

#10 2021-09-14 12:41:24

Void
Member
Registered: 2011-12-29
Posts: 4,792

Re: Terraforming Mars, and connecting it functions to the other planemos

So, building on the previous post, I suppose, you add a U.V. filter to the ALON
window, and also a heat exchanger to the target cavity on top of the cone.

I guess I am not at all sure what fluids should be in the heat exchanger.  Just
now I am not thinking of generating power with bioling liquids, rather just to
put heat into the lake below.  Possibly Ammonia or CO2 could work.  Maybe there
is something better, and maybe it is case by case depending on the climatic
conditions.

You then would likely want a light defuser.

At this point then in the water below the cone, there could be agriculture of
Hydrilla, with transparent bags full of fresh water.  Nutrients and Mars
atmosphere would be added, and in return it is expected to get green plant mass
and Oxygen.  And a concentrate mix of Nitroge, and Argon mixed with the Oxygen.
"Air", sort of.

And with more work "Container Farming" could occur most likely.

Duck weed in partially air filled containers.

Even vegtables inside of air filled containers.

------

So, then probably in the next post I add cone shapped diving bells.

Done.


Done.

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#11 2021-09-14 12:52:24

Void
Member
Registered: 2011-12-29
Posts: 4,792

Re: Terraforming Mars, and connecting it functions to the other planemos

Diving Bells:

In this case I suggest cone shaped ones.

With the tip cut off to allow for an Alon window.

These could simply be water filled open bottom cones for aquiculture.

They could be closed bottom.

They could be air filled open bottom with regolith piled on the cone to weight it
down.

Or they could be closed bottom with the option also to pile regolith inside to
weigh it down.

In this case the Alon window above the ice in the cone tower would not block U.V.

But the Alon window on top of the under ice cone would block U.V. if that was
desired.  The defuser in this case would be in the underwater cone.

This sea of cones would allow communication physically into a network of underground
tunnels.

In terms of a underwater diving suit, I am tending towards something that is sort
of a "Hard Suit", so that if you go below 1 bar pressure, you are OK, and if
you go above 1 bar you are OK, probably seldom see that much pressure.

This could be modeled off of Oil platform suits used but would not have to be as
strong.  The hands would be a special case, so as to allow the best performance.
Many options would be possible for that.  Even gloves off in some cases.

It would be designed to avoid the problems of the bends and other such underwater
issues.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2021-09-14 12:52:37)


Done.

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#12 2021-09-14 12:54:55

Void
Member
Registered: 2011-12-29
Posts: 4,792

Re: Terraforming Mars, and connecting it functions to the other planemos

There are rather flat areas on Mars, particularly much of the Northern Hemisphere, and there an ice covered ocean about 100 feet deep might be quite possible.

Hellas and other basins, and crater holes could also become lakes and seas, provided, that a massive "Water Works" could be set up on the planet.

A "Water Works", is typically something that is very important for a civilization to
prosper.

Done.


Done.

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#13 2021-09-16 19:59:03

Void
Member
Registered: 2011-12-29
Posts: 4,792

Re: Terraforming Mars, and connecting it functions to the other planemos

There is a trick I have spoken before of.

For some seas, just inject Hydrogen and Martian atmosphere.  The let microbes manufacture Methane as rocket fuel.  A byproduct would be organic matter, which could enrich lake bottom soil, or could be harvested to grow Mushrooms on.

Of course to generate the Hydrogen from water, Oxygen would be produced.  That's not a problem is it?

And the microbes will generate heat, which will help melt lake water.

Done for now.


Done.

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#14 2021-09-19 09:27:14

Void
Member
Registered: 2011-12-29
Posts: 4,792

Re: Terraforming Mars, and connecting it functions to the other planemos

I have a fair amount to enter on the site, in this topic.
Some things have occured to me that make me wonder why I did not think of it before.

I believe that Polders will be very desirable on Mars.

Polder:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polder

Quote:

A polder (Dutch pronunciation: [ˈpɔldər] (About this soundlisten)) is a low-lying tract of land that forms an artificial hydrological entity, enclosed by embankments known as dikes. The three types of polder are:

Land reclaimed from a body of water, such as a lake or the seabed
Flood plains separated from the sea or river by a dike
Marshes separated from the surrounding water by a dike and subsequently drained; these are also known as koogs, especially in Germany
The ground level in drained marshes subsides over time. All polders will eventually be below the surrounding water level some or all of the time. Water enters the low-lying polder through infiltration and water pressure of groundwater, or rainfall, or transport of water by rivers and canals. This usually means that the polder has an excess of water, which is pumped out or drained by opening sluices at low tide. Care must be taken not to set the internal water level too low. Polder land made up of peat (former marshland) will sink in relation to its previous level, because of peat decomposing when exposed to oxygen from the air.

Polders are at risk from flooding at all times, and care must be taken to protect the surrounding dikes. Dikes are typically built with locally available materials, and each material has its own risks: sand is prone to collapse owing to saturation by water; dry peat is lighter than water and potentially unable to retain water in very dry seasons. Some animals dig tunnels in the barrier, allowing water to infiltrate the structure; the muskrat is known for this activity and hunted in certain European countries because of it. Polders are most commonly, though not exclusively, found in river deltas, former fenlands, and coastal areas.

Flooding of polders has also been used as a military tactic in the past. One example is the flooding of the polders along the Yser River during World War I. Opening the sluices at high tide and closing them at low tide turned the polders into an inaccessible swamp, which allowed the Allied armies to stop the German army.

I have spoken of lakes and seas before.  Obviously on Mars, the purpose would be to hold a body of water.  But I failed to realize previously that if you can make bricks on Mars, then you can build habitation from them and have that buried inside of the retaining berm.

-----

The above could relate to this which we have seen before.

Giant Ice Slab in the "Temperate" latitudes of Mars.

https://www.space.com/30502-mars-giant- … ts%20added.
Quote:

The ice the scientists found measures 130 feet (40 m) thick and lies just beneath the dirt, or regolith, or Mars.

Having to remove much of the overburden, is a blessing after all, as bricks and berms for polders can be made of it.  This should provide a massive amount of
pressurized space, using bricks and not higher cost to produce metals and such.

This is not the only possible way to make the bricks, but it is a way:
https://www.themarysue.com/astronaut-pee-bricks/

Of course moving soil and manufacturing Urea are going to be likely needs.

------

I see that economy involving various ways to manufacture Methane and Oxygen.

Obviously for rockets, but also for mobile equipment.

The way I prefer is that Hydrogen and Martian atmosphere will be injected into a water impoundment, and microbes be allowed to create biomass and Methane.

That polder would be largely without Oxygen.  However other polders would be Oxygen friendly.

If Methane or even Oxygen should leak out at a slow rate, it would possibly contribute to terraforming the planet.  The Methane might warm the planet, and the Oxygen might contribute to Ozone.  But those would not be the main purpose.

Recently this article came out:
https://www.zmescience.com/science/bact … ng-024632/
Quote:

One of the largest ecosystems on Earth lives beneath the seafloor and eats radiation byproducts
That's pretty metal!

So, I don't know what the magnitude of production is for biology, but it should be
possible to establish it in manufactured bodies of water on Mars.

And that leads to a question.  Would it ever be done to make a body of water's seafloor more radioactive?  Methane produced, I don't think it would be too radioactive???  I am not sure.  Still I wonder if they test lakes and sea/Oceans, for an enhancement of the radiolysis perhaps nuclear spills have not been entirely against the existence of life.

So, I think some polders will have photosynthesis by various means.

Some will have chemosynthesis,

And maybe some will have radiolysis.  That would be a choice not a necessity.

-----

I will do a little more after all:
Index» Human missions» Air. Shelter. Water. Food.  About #458-#502 may contain
valuable notions.  Especially about piping light and heat into structures.  Spacenut and (th) more or less provided some good stuff for that.

As for the "Berm Housing", then it should be possible to get some natural light into parts of it.  I suppose good methods could be developed.

------

As I previously said, I wonder why I did not think of brick structures inside of berms before, as the polder walls.  I guess I was more interested in what was in the container, than the container itself.

Well, I believe we have a way to build two states worth of civilization.  The ice slab is supposed to be the size of Texas and California.  And of course there are still more ice slabs, likely at higher latitudes.


Previously, I had thought of making brick houses at the bottom of lakes, and piling regolith on top of them to keep them from exploding.  I was close, but so silly as well.

In this case, the buildings can be heated to comfort, as we will not care about melting permafrost.  There should be melted mud around the bricks, and then frozen mud encasing that.  That should be possible by some methods to learn.

Now I take a brake.   

Done for now.

Last edited by Void (2021-09-19 10:20:14)


Done.

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#15 2021-09-19 17:57:44

Void
Member
Registered: 2011-12-29
Posts: 4,792

Re: Terraforming Mars, and connecting it functions to the other planemos

OK, I wonder, if it were possible to roll dice and get a prize in 1 of 100 rolls.
You would not know which one it might be.  It might not be 1 in 100, but rather an
average of those chances.

How many people would learn not to try, because of shame?  Well that might be correct
don't know how to decide that.  Gambling can be the ruin of many people, and some
cultures have shame for you if you ever make a mistake.  I recall General Swartscoff
saying that if you ever get things wrong with an Arab, you are all done forever. I
really don't know how true that might be.  But if you are dealing with a relegious
cheat sheet mind, then that might be a possibility.  They would prize memorization
accuracy.  At least perhaps that might be true to a degree.

So, today, as I am arrogant about not being such smile, I will take a roll.

You need to understand that I do not have a gambling problem.  When I was young, I
went to a "Fair", where my experience was quite unfair.  But that was a benefit, as
when I realised that I was being played to give up my money, it showed me how that
was not a way to win in life.

And so, just because I want to, I am going to talk about a roll of the dice, as I
do know when not to put something up that is essential to me, for a gamble.

This is simply a notion, and I am interested if anyone may wish to help me with it.
I am not sure of it's value.

There are those who keep blairing off alarm bells about energy and the environment.
That is possible useful.  Robert Zubrin has talked about those people who insist
that "There isn't enough for everyone".  He might be correct about them.  Is this
the case where we rile up a tribe and make them frustrated and fearfull, so that
we can more regulate the population and put little boys on battlefields to butcher
them?  There have been many and they are not all one type, who, seek to command
such powers over those easy to deceive.  For some it can be entertainment, for some
it might be glory.  For some it is the hiden method to get some others to take things
so that your tribe can take ill gotten goods.  And they in the shadows have no shame
about it, or at least process it too slow to behave better.

There is always the need for a super race.  If they fall on the battle field, they
are not worthy.  If by accedent, to a large degree, or tallent as well, they survive,
then then can come home and breed.

I think we are good enough.  This has gone on far too long.  We should become
concious of this process and see what we might do about it.

But we must work with current circumstances and recognize risk, and protect from it.

------

I have already ventured into dangerous waters, for the current cults of the USA, and
perhaps other places don't allow such speach, or what I might further say.  And of
couse they are sluffing, and setting up the slauter house for another run, with their
incorrect behaviors.  As in Dune, "Why did you summon me?".  That is a real thing
if you allow incompetent or heartless people to indulge themselves, then their may be
consequences.

-------

Since I am not powered or desired to do social manipulations, perhaps I can think to
manipulate objects.

-------

I was going to delete the above, but screw it.  (Imagine what I might have said).
I wish to be useful, not a problem.

OK, machines.

First I speak of Isaac Arthur and the Moon.
Then of Mars.
Then perhaps the Earth.

So, Isaac Arthur reccomended greenhouses where light would enter through a tube,
presumably from mirrors manipulated by animation methods.  Probably focused.

Here some conversation has occured along similar lines.

But what about a cavity in a mass of a structure, heated to a propper temperature,
with solar cells in it.  I confess, I am not very sure about this.

So, the mass is heated and is a reservoir of heat to an expected, calculated
extent.

But then what of anti-solar cells?  Can they be on the outside?

Can we make a sort of heat engine, that has storage built in, and can advantage
itself from the cold of a place.  Mars or our polar ice caps?

Spacenut has reviewed some of these things with me previouswly, the descrete elements
but can we join them into something useful?

The high temperature solar cells:
https://www.osa.org/en-us/about/newsroo … oader_sol/

Anti-Solar Cells:
https://scitechdaily.com/anti-solar-cel … -at-night/

I believe that there are at least two types of device.  But I am tired.

I am more concerned if the hot solar cells can work as I have speculated.  If not then something to invent?

Better than a machine with moving parts as we understand it, a "Heat Engine".  Of course photons move, so
those are moving parts.

Nano-Nonsense-but maybe good????

I will try stuff.  I hate no-can-do attitude of current culture.

That's about all I have today.  Really need a break.

Done.


Done.

Online

#16 2021-09-20 06:44:41

Void
Member
Registered: 2011-12-29
Posts: 4,792

Re: Terraforming Mars, and connecting it functions to the other planemos

Just passing some time now.

Just to be sure, can it be possible to have high temperature solar cells inside a cavity which is inside of a mass of ???

And then can the outside of that mass be covered by anti-solar cells???

Can that work, and can that be useful?

If the above does not work, then why?  Then we might learn something important.

------

In the previous posts, I confess, that if all of the territory of that ice slab mentioned
were covered in water, then eventually the permafrost below may melt.  And Mars being rather porous, that could be a concern.  So, of course that has to be considered and modified for most likely.

------

As for the solar device spoken of earlier, I do wonder if it can actually very well utilize the cold of Mars, and of the universe??? 

What of the Moon and Mercury, in that regard?  Other places???

Many places in the solar system could possibly use a cavity-hot solar cells/ Mass -Maybe a cube or berm?/and the anti-solar cells.  You could very likely use mirrors to fill the cavity with solar heat.


So then.....

Greenland....Cool the ice off by intercepting the sunshine and redirecting it to such a device?  Generate power from it.  Of course you have to protect from the device melting the ice.

------

I see in the media they are getting all excited about making bricks with astronaut blood.  Of course they would go there.  There should be floggings for it, but "No cruel and unusual punishment", even for careless morons in the media.

It will be OK anyway.  We will just pee bricks smile

Well, manufacture Urea.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2021-09-20 06:54:23)


Done.

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#17 2021-09-29 10:43:45

Void
Member
Registered: 2011-12-29
Posts: 4,792

Re: Terraforming Mars, and connecting it functions to the other planemos

Well, I think I have a lot of business here in some of these topics.

This one just at this moment, is not my first concern, but I did obtain
a good reference, so here we go.

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-africa-45978942

I am very pleased with the reported source of this innovation.  I have
hoped that Africa would step up to the plate, as they are in the sub-sahara,
quite a lot from a wilderness situation.  They do have farmers, which is
necessary, but can lead to a post-humans dominating true humans situation,
but we got a gem stone in this case.

Don't get me wrong, the west has a technologically advanced type of farmer.
It is not that farming has to be to the detriment of humans, but if someone
is trying to express their reletively useless genes in the servant population,
that can have bad concequences if allowed to continue too many generations.

We don't need 7 billion kings, we need people who "Can Do".  We can get all
the surplus wanna-be kings we might want.  There are quite a lot of ego's out
there.

We don't really need more "Prancing Princes".

------

But about the bricks.  It seems to me that they are a cool process.  Unlike
other brick making processes.  That is to mention kiln involved processes.

Can it be considered to include other materials into that process, perhaps
some sort of rebar?  Actually I am thinking about hemp fibers.

This process produces excess Ammonia, but that could be a useful chemical.

I don't know what use a Pee-brick/Hemp product would give, but I have taken
the energy and time to wonder.

I feel it might be somewhat good for making some pipes on Mars.  For some
situations it might work.

Done


Done.

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#18 2021-09-30 18:40:43

Calliban
Member
From: Northern England, UK
Registered: 2019-08-18
Posts: 2,061

Re: Terraforming Mars, and connecting it functions to the other planemos

I read a paper today discussing the likely fate of Martian water.  Apparently, Mars has lost something like 90-98% of the water it was created with.  Some was lost to space, through ultraviolet dissociation.  But it is now believed that this was not the main loss mechanism.  Most of the water ended up being absorbed by the crust as hydrated minerals.  This happens on Earth, but techtonics recycle the water vapour back to the surface.  On Mars, without tectonics, water that is trapped in this way gets trapped forever.

This is bad news for terraforming.  Although the water is still there, it is chemically bound to the rock, maybe to a depth of kilometres.  To get it out would mean heating the rock to hundreds of degrees Celsius.  Not something that we can easily do.  Unless we are prepared to strip mine the surface rock and bake it in ovens, that water is trapped for good.  If we attempt to reactivate the hydrosphere, we only increase the rate at which water gets trapped.

I wonder if other volatiles got trapped in that way as well.  Could the crust be full of nitrogen trapped as nitrates that have no way of getting back into the atmosphere?

Last edited by Calliban (2021-09-30 18:43:18)


"Plan and prepare for every possibility, and you will never act. It is nobler to have courage as we stumble into half the things we fear than to analyse every possible obstacle and begin nothing. Great things are achieved by embracing great dangers."

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#19 2021-10-01 13:46:43

louis
Member
From: UK
Registered: 2008-03-24
Posts: 7,208

Re: Terraforming Mars, and connecting it functions to the other planemos

Once you have rain and running water on Mars I think the dust issue should resolve itself - the dust would become silt in rivers, lakes and seas.

In the future creating a magnetosphere might be easier than appears now, using satellites and solar power.

There is the nuclear bomb option for heating up the planet which Elon Musk has mentioned. I can't see that being politically acceptable, myself.  But certainly regolith can be converted into gas using a variety of methods. Maybe nuclear power would be used. We might have millions of factories producing strong greenhouse gases and processing regolith into gas.

We don't have to worry about upper atmospheric loss in the "short term" - everything I have read suggests it takes thousands of years, maybe tens of thousands of years for loss to become significant.

One of the best suggestions I've seen for heating up the regolith is simply laying transparent heat trap plastic sheeting on the ground, name of which I forget. Would be a couple of inches thick. If anyone remembers the artist Christo, this would be very much his sort of thing: wrapping a whole planet in plastic! Well in reality maybe you would be looking to cover a third of the planet in this stuff.

The option of crashing small asteroids onto the Mars surface, preferably those with high water content seems feasible to me. We would have to develop a technology that could ensure the asteroid landed where we wanted ie well away from human settlement.

A Mars colony may need to think in terms of devoting 20-25% of its GDP to terraformation. There would need to be a dedicated institution e.g. Mars Terraformation Institute that could study the related issues in depth, develop new techniques and monitor implementation of plans.

Terraformation is going to be incredibly important on Mars in terms of its culture. It will be something that unites people, people who may come from different nations and different cultural traditions. It is something that could be celebrated on a special sol in the calendar each Mars year.

Void wrote:

Terraforming Mars, and connecting it functions to the other planemos.

This depends as an offshoot or "Terraforming Earth".  At it's post #11.

I have formulated the topics title here so that it is possible to relate an increasingly
Terraformed Mars to other things like the Asteroid Belt and Earth/Moon, without exposing
the materials to the "Off Topic" show stopper.

First of all it is currently speculated that 16 Psyche is a rubble pile, and not a whole
planetary core.  It is possibly composed of ~10% Carbonacious materials.  It is also now
thought to have a great deal of VOID spaces.  These things are not yet proven very well.
However, for me if aproximately true, it makes this asteroid quite a prise.  If it is as
suggested, then the metallic core of one of the parent asteroids was shattered.  To me
this says that study of it is facilitated, and that various metals will be available to
access.  Nuclear fuels, and also metals for Heliostats.  So much energy.  Unlike small
rubble piles, it should have some reasonable amount of gravity.  Not a lot, but perhaps
enough to favor working with machinery on and inside of the object.

https://astronomynow.com/2021/06/11/16- … y-thought/
https://www.universetoday.com/151531/as … bble-pile/
https://www.firstpost.com/tech/science/ … 16321.html


So, what about Mars?  Well, it seems that it could be a refueling station for trips to
asteroids, 16 Psyche maybe.  Mars may also have two rubble pile moons.  We can't be sure,
but they appear to be very porous.  So, methods for them may to a degree apply to
16 Psyche.

About Martian Dust Storms:
https://www.universetoday.com/14892/mars-dust-storms/
Quote:

Surprisingly, many of the dust storms on the planet originate from one impact basin.
Hellas Basin is the deepest impact crater in the Solar System. It was formed more than
three billion years ago during the Late Bombardment Period when a very large asteroid hit
the surface of Mars. The temperatures at the bottom of the crater can be 10 degrees warmer
than on the surface and the crater is deeply filled with dust. The difference in temperature
fuels wind action that picks up the dust, then storm emerge from the basin.

The low spots on Mars includes Hellas, and much of the Northern Hemisphere.  And the big canyons.

Where some doom sayers claim that there is not enough suitable materials on Mars to Terraform
Mars, I dispute this.
Steps possible include:
1) Vaporize CO2 of the ice caps, pressure in Hellas is now an aproximate maximum of 11.5 mkBar.
adding the polar CO2 to the atmosphere should bring the max pressure in Hellas to >23 mBar.
2) Inject water vapor into the upper atmosphere of Mars.  This should split into Oxygen and
Hydrogen, adding a magnetic field to Mars, should help the Oxygen to stick around.  I don't know
how high the air pressure could be increased, but probabbly 1/3 Bar is possible.  The time for
this to be achieved is unknown.
3) Bake rock to get atmospheric components, and Metals.  Planetary magnetic field desired.

Notes:
-The use of Methane to warm Mars may not work.  It appears that our probes indicate that at night
Methane can appear, but by day it is consumed by some process.
-Hellas has ice in its Southern portions. 
-It may be possible that there could be arteasian water under the permafrost of Hellas--
-CO2 condensates in the southern winter could damage equipment.

Obviously I am very interested in Heliostats.  I think that whole forrests of them should be created
on Mars, and so to collect energy, stiffle dust storms, and create atmospheric gasses from
regolith/dust.  And in a hot process perhaps to generate metals and ceramics to build still more
heliostats, and other things.

If Hellas were completely filled with Heliostats, it would be an amazing thing, and very good for
terraforming and also having bulk wealth for humans on Mars.

We probably have trouble accepting such a prospect, but if Elon Musk is correct, robots will not too
long from now do virtually all the work.  If they don't kill us off, then they can make forests
of Heliostats on Mars, and other places.

From the topic "Terraforming Earth", materials about storing high temperature energy can be found.

If heat were stored in "Salt Baths", and dust and other regolith disolved into them, the
British/Europeans have macinery that can extract O2 or CO2 from the disolved materials.  This can
also produce metals.

So first stiffle the dust storms, and then consume the dust  If the dust does not have enough materials
for atmosphere, then use rocks.

The salt baths obviously will store energy, in case there is a major dust storm.

I think that using a forest of heliostats in Hellas, (And other places), may allow surface water deposits.
If the atmospheric pressure is increased, the heliostats may even become condensers.  The floor of the
crater can be cooled, by blocking, reflecting, and capturing solar energy.

I agree with some here that there would also need to be fision nuclear power, for a safety measure.

Done.


Let's Go to Mars...Google on: Fast Track to Mars blogspot.com

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#20 2021-10-02 09:01:43

Void
Member
Registered: 2011-12-29
Posts: 4,792

Re: Terraforming Mars, and connecting it functions to the other planemos

Hi.  Thanks for the contributions Calliban and Louis.

Most of what you said, I regard as good news.  I never so much believed that most
of the Martian atmosphere and hydrosphere had gone into space.

Raging Rivers:
https://www.livescience.com/65088-mars- … ivers.html

Cover Mars in 115 feet of water?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Water_on_Mars
Quote:

More than 5 million km3 of ice have been detected at or near the surface of Mars, enough to cover the whole planet to a depth of 35 meters (115 ft).[13] Even more ice is likely to be locked away in the deep subsurface.[14]

I believe it is quite possible for water to be buried miles down.
https://www.iflscience.com/space/severa … orth-pole/

The ice was organized in slabs with sand, although in certain areas it was 90 percent water by volume. If melted, it would be like having a 1.5-meter (5-foot) layer of water around the Red Planet.

So, there is plenty to apply a ~1/3 Bar Hydrosphere on to all the surfaces of Mars, presuming it was as smooth as a billiard
ball.  But of course it is not.  But without sacrificing all the water it should be possible to make a ~1/3 Bar Hydrosphere,
over say 1/3 to 1/2 of the planet.  And that could be a good objective.

------

However, I can see that it would be desirable to have a thicker and thicker atmosphere mostly of O2, perhaps with an Ozone
layer.  I believe that for now the first chance to improve the situation would be to vaporize the CO2 ice which apparently is
quite a lot in the South Polar ice cap.

That is said to be able to double the average atmospheric pressure of Mars.  It has also been thought that it would allow
temporary streams of melt water in some places, and also a more normal snow fall that could melt.  Mixing dust in the snowfall
will make it more likely to melt.  Of course the water will then evaporate in some relatively short time.  But if you do have
temporary streams, then it should be possible to make an underground drainage system of culverts to collect much of this.

It could be very possible even to collect such water into ice covered pools.  For reasons mentioned by you, we might want to
avoid raging rivers that might capture water into minerals.  Also, if they exist, then more bridges and tunnels must be built
to get across them.

It is my thinking that a magnetic field applied to Mars would over time allow more water vapor to move up to the upper atmosphere
to become Hydrogen to float away, and Oxygen that is desired to stay.  Humans and their machines may assist the movement of
the greenhouse gass to the upper atmosphere, and the process will be able to utilize the U.V. light that the sun gives to
accomplish this.

I have never been capable of doing this calculation.  I suspect that Calliban can do it with some approximations.

If, as an early move the CO2 was evaporated from the poles, and brought the average atmospheric pressure from 5.5 mBar to
11 mBar, what then would be the air pressure in Hellas?  How about low places in the Northern hemisphere?

My estimates suppose that it would be > 2x 11.5 mBars = 23 + mBars, for Hellas.

Because of atmospheric displacement and atmospheric compression, I believe this may be true.

------

I would like to create some temporary terminology to express what I think we might choose to call matter phase displacement.

-Solidsphere: This would be rock and ice.
-Liquidsphere: This is quite similar to Hydrosphere.
-Gassosphere: Of course this is quite similar to Atmosphere.

Perhaps I have annoyed many apologies and humor in that case. smile

Let's look at the Earth.  During Ice ages the Solidsphere grows at the expense of the Liquidsphere, and Gassosphere.  Continental
shelves are exposed to become habitable land.  Humans living in such an era on the continental shelves, would have extra
Oxygen, in opposition to the case today where we at most breathe sea level Oxygen, with the exception of small depressions
such as the Dead Sea.

So, they might have been advantaged biological compared to today, but of course fires might have been a greater concern.

So, for Mars, a 23+ mBar atmosphere in low places may offer certain advantages, relative to what exists today.

This should allow for ice covered pools of water which may not even need serious mechanical coverings to work out.  Unlike
Earth, such pools on Mars may need a thermal assist from Humans and their machines to not freeze up completely.  But that
should be within the reach of humans and machines.

Atmospheric displacement of the Liquidsphere and Gassosphere, by the Solidsphere, should cause low spots on Mars to have
a greater greenhouse effect that higher locations.

We might consider a situation where evaporation from high places including ice caps would deliver snow to the low places.
The greater significance of the compression and greenhouse effect in the low places, should produce better liquid water
stability and also ice stability.  It may be that some ice covered pools will not require mechanical coverings.

But mechanical coverings of these pools may be desired, as we do not want to have raging rivers.  So, tuck the water into
these pools, as much as is practical, and prohibit much of the potential evaporation.

The above will become much more important as the Atmosphere is increased in number of molecules, most likely Oxygen molecules.

While I have speculated on a built atmosphere mostly coming from water, I have no problem anticipating a contribution from
mined Hydrated or Nitrogen minerals.  If the Musk robots become real, then we can anticipate some significant increase in
labor force to accomplish the reduction of rocks to produce atmosphere.  Also this should lead to a network of underground
tunnels, and much mechanical structure built on the surface.

-----

I myself, am OK with the Mars Direct as a method to get a start on Mars.

However I anticipate the move to build orbital habitats around Mars.  Relative the the Earth/Moon subsystem, it is better
to use the Mars/Phobos/Deimos sub system.  You can do SSTO from Mars, and Phobos and Deimos have almost no gravity.  And of
course building structures from the materials of these three objects in orbit of Mars will yield many gas molecules for the
Martian Gassosphere.

I see that the Mars and Earth subsystems can compliment each other to the benefit to the human race.

And Venus and Mercury are not that much far out of reach as many might suppose.

For Mercury, maybe covered seas in the polar craters.

For Venus, a giant floating city, also much habitat for humans in orbit, and on the ground robots cooled by cryogenic liquids
and also tolerant of high heat.

Liquid CO2 and N2 perhaps manufactured in the floating city.  Gliders with steam engines move up and down from the city to
the surface.  The gravity field of Venus being 90% that of Earth, perhaps even eventually SSTO to orbit from the floating
city.

Some spell check, I have things to do.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2021-10-02 09:11:59)


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#21 2021-10-03 09:13:39

Void
Member
Registered: 2011-12-29
Posts: 4,792

Re: Terraforming Mars, and connecting it functions to the other planemos

Hi, again.  Thanks for the contributions Calliban and Louis.
   
I believe that I am collecting improvements on the recent materials of this topic.

I am here thinking of methods of adapting to mid latitude ice sheets on Mars.

I can think of 2 methods.  Cells and Canals.  The cells being the polders, and
the canals being like veins in a body.

Typically I would expect the Cells to be organzed into a collection, of some
polygon shape.  Perhaps like a honey comb.  These could often be to foster
photosynthesis, and to be involved in Oxygenated water.

The canals would probably be for Chemosynthesis.  And would produce a gass mixture
that was dominently Methane.  Martian atmosphere would be fed into the waters,
and also Hydrogen.  So a product including Methane, Nitrogen, and Argon would be
produced.  It could probably be treated like Natural Gas without separations for
ground vehicles, as a compressed gas.  For Rockets, I guess the Methane would be
separated from the other components.

So, for the canals, I anticipate cold water and a thick ice layer.
Looking at this again, it believe polders with an Ice and Water depth could be
created. 
https://www.space.com/30502-mars-giant- … y-mro.html
Quote:

The ice the scientists found measures 130 feet (40 m) thick and lies just beneath the dirt, or regolith, or Mars.

The I do better with feet, thinking thing out in my head.  It is my opinion that knowing multiple measurement systems is
helpful for certain skills, just as knowing multiple languages is said to be.  Anyway it will be feet.  I have other things
to do.

So 130 feet deep, we know that it is not pure ice, but I will act as if it were because more water can be taken from locations
further away from polders and canals.  That would be "Make-Up" water.

So, it would be 130 feet of ice.  To convert to water I think ~.9 x 130 = 117 feet of water.  This would be plenty to
produce > 1 Bar of pressure at the bottom of the waters.  However some on the top would be left as ice, with some
mechanical cover, maybe even just dirt.  Probably dirt over a vapor barrier in the case of a Methane produceing
canal.

In fact I would prefer less than 2/3 water with more than 1/3 ice above it.

This would be to satisfy several needs.  ~1/3 ice would produce ~1/3 Bar pressure on top of the transition from
ice to liquid.  By Henries Laws, then significant amounts of Methane and Nitrogen and Argon, could remain disolved
in the cold water.

Also this setup gaurantees that a person swimming in this situation would never experience a pressure that is too
low for survival.

Further I have said Canal.  I think that vehicles would be able to travel at a resonable speed through this canal
without significant disruption of the thick ice layer.  I believe that vehicles that are not very disruptive could
be designed.  I am thinking a more or less South to North Canal(s).  But that is not a mandate.

For Cells/Polders, dealing usually with Oxygen production, Either a thick or thin method can be used.
If artificial lights then perhaps thick.  If photons from the sun used then probably thinner.

The thick ice method could be very useful.  With a thick layer of ice, you could put an insulating material on
the underside of the ice, and likely be able to warm up the water under this to room temperature.

So actually swimming permitted.  Indeed also diving bells filled with Oxygen/Air depending on depth.  You might
have small ones that just your head would fit into.  So, then this could be a simple method of entertainment
and cleaning the body as well.  Aquaculture could be fine, but if you have diving bells with lighting devices in
them you could grow land crops as well.

I think I have spoken of thin ice agriculture previously which would have some advantages and dissadvanages.

Also there could be batch jar agriculture where smaller self pressurized greenhouses could be set out on the
ground and then periodically brought into a pressure chamber to do planting and harvesting.  There could
also be tiny robots to do work inside of them when they are out in the sunlight.  Perhaps polynation and
monitoring, and of course any other need.

Very likely various methods will be more suitable for various crops.

So, I would think, that there should be no need to go hungry or starve.

------

The walls of the Polders and canals, will be berms of regolith.  If it is possible to project them somewhat
above the covered ice, then heliostats can deflect sunlight from impinging on the ice, so to keep it cooler
and more stable.  It then may pass that light to devices that can inject it into polders, or it could focus
the light onto the high points of the berm(s) where thermal or electrical generation processes could be
made to occur.  The upper parts of the berm(s) would not necessarily be packed regolith, but in places
could be machinery.

Things of interest.  Metal receivers, Concrete, Pee-Brick, Light guide pipes, Alon, Flaps, Solar Cells,
Anti-Solar cells.

I will probably have follow ups, but I am looking especially at Anti-Solar cells.  I am hoping that Alon
windows that can handle the thermal shock of manipulated and fluctuating light intensity can be made.

Isaac Arthur in at least one of his videos has talked of beaming light into a small window with a pipe
into greenhouses.  The logic is that if an impactor on the Moon were to break the window, then a door
could immediatly shut to decreast the amount of depressurization.  I would think that there is no reason
not to do this on Mars, as it also will be a great thermal collector, and it is possible to get nailed
by an impactor, just not as likely.  Such greenhouses collecting lots of heat might be cooled with
polder water in a thick ice situation, where waters could be room temp or more. 

Anti-Solar cells also could be mounted on much of the outer surface of such a greenhouse.  And in
general they might work better at the night than during the day.  But in some situations they might
work 24/7, (Barring a dust storm).

Isaac Arthur has also spoke of heating a block of regolith to very high temperatures, probably with
heliostats.  That then would provide heat in the lunar night.  You would want to handle insulation
and mass characteristics.  Conduction, Covection, and radiation are to be considered.

We could think to do this on Earth, or the Moon, or Mars.

I think that Isaac Arthur more considered Conduction, but of course the others are an option.

So, about the Moon instances:  I have been thinking that if you had a pile of rocks, not pressurized,
but in a unpressurized thermal container, and if you could manage to have Alon windows that could
take the heat, Concentrated light should pass through the window, and produce relativly shorter wave
phopons probably not visible light, but maybe.  In that setup conduction would be a factor, but
radiation should be the dominant method of heat distrubution.  At night or during dust storms,
you close a door over the window, to help hold the heat in.  The rest of the outer portions of this
could be covered in Anti-Solar Cells.  And of course the amount of time this would need to have some
heat on the Moon would likly be about 2 weeks or so.

For Earth this might be possible, but not using radiation so much more likely forced air convection.

For Mars, I am contemplating flaps probably not forced air convection only , but perhaps a mix of all
three transfer methods.  I would think that for Mars, with ~5.5 mBar if you really wanted to use
forced air convection you could really speed it up by perhaps 100 or more times?  But I think
that radiative transer could be very helpful.

I have considered flaps for Mars, and not so likely for Earth.

Think of an "A Frame" structure, where you have flaps on each roof.  They would be hinged at the apex
of the roof, and could rotate on those hinges to present a ~horizontal surface when the structure
was recieving light.  Regular solar cells would be on the bottom surface of those flaps, and
Anti-Solar cells on the top of the surface.

During heating, Heliostats would pass light to the bottom surface of the flaps, the flaps would heat,
and so, also the Anti-Solar cells would produce electricity.  Light could also be presented to
the thermal mass to store heat.  There may or may not be Alon windows around the thermal mass.

At night the flaps could come down.  The solar cells would be inactive, but the Anti-Solar cells
would be active.  Because of the differing natures of Mars and Earth, I consider it possible for
Mars, but winds on Earth may well prohibit it.

A thing I don't know:  For a Martian night time with a heated solar mass, could you utilize the
full temperature differential of the heated mass and the deep cold of the nightime, and maybe
even wintertime.

Done.


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#22 2021-10-03 09:16:52

Void
Member
Registered: 2011-12-29
Posts: 4,792

Re: Terraforming Mars, and connecting it functions to the other planemos

In  case you might wonder, I feel that a part of  the world wide attitude sees global warming / climate change as a doorway to social controls.

I don't really think that many of them want problems solved, they just want to be in charge of people and things.

So, those types love to have unsolvable problems.  If they can create one or maintain it, then they can say that there is no technological fix, but the society
needs more regulation.

That's why I do what I do.

I hate problems that hang without solution.

Done.


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#23 2021-10-05 19:17:13

Void
Member
Registered: 2011-12-29
Posts: 4,792

Re: Terraforming Mars, and connecting it functions to the other planemos

I choose to make mention that any of the berms could have Roman Arch and dome
type structures inside of them.

Metals are nice, but expensive, and they do corrode over centuries.

And there could be multi story versions where the lower portions are filled
with water and the upper portions with air.

From the lower portoins you might access ice covered bodies of water.

Ice covered bodies of water give the ability to use barometric airlocks.

Several versions are possible, but perhaps an easy one to understand
would be water at just above freezing, where most of the differential pressure
is handeled by water column.

So, I speculate that you could have a very basic building with a pressure inside
of say 20 mBar, and then could have a hole like an ice fishing hole, where
you could bring objects up and down from that building into and out of that
body of water.

So, then your true airlock only has to handle the remaining say ~14.5 mBars of
pressure as your barometrick airlock, (The column of water), had handled almost
every part of the change in pressure of ~333 mBar at the bottom of the water,
and the typical ~5.5 mBar in the exterior Martian normal.

Done.


Done.

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#24 2021-10-06 10:27:47

Void
Member
Registered: 2011-12-29
Posts: 4,792

Re: Terraforming Mars, and connecting it functions to the other planemos

Some more about barimetric airlocks......

First of all, I think it is a great fit for Mars.  As far as I can tell, the only
other option is a totally mechanical airlock, on a world of gritty dust.  It seems
to me that that option will be a serious challenge.  Traditional airlocks, require
precision machining, as far as I feel I understand it.  Gritty dust will want to
make them leak more.

I guess the name "Barometric Airlock", might not be the best.  Maybe we could say
"Liquid Column Airlock".

Previously I have mentioned this some time ago.  However I feel that I should do
more.

In the previous post I indicated a fresh water situation.  I suggested a body of
ice water with a raft of ice above it and of course a protective shell to protect
the ice.

If there is a array of polders, then you may deviate one or more from fresh water. 

You might try to create on of maximum saltiness, very, very cold.  Still having
an ice raft, a protected ice raft.  Ice house fishing hole used.

This query "Ice fishing picture, inside ice house", produced this at this time.
https://www.bing.com/images/search?q=Ic … BasicHover

Not entirely what I wanted, but helpfull, perhaps.

It is said that in the deepest parts of Hellas, there is enough air pressure so that drops of fresh water could exist.  But
that would require an increase of temperature of it to melting.  And so, it would not boil.  But it would evaporate, likely
very quickly.

So, if you wanted to be silly, you could have an exposed open hole of water in an ice raft, and suffer much water loss from
evaporation.  If you made mechanical provistions such as an "Ice House", you could reduce those losses.  A lid over the hole
might help a lot.

It would be very toxic to have very cold water with Perchlorate salts in it.  It would not boil, but, would still evaporate
but at a much lower rate.

If you used salts that are not so toxic, then you could achieve rather cold temperatures, and still a relatively low rate of
evaporation, and no boiling.  Still advisable to have an "Ice Fishing House", and a lid.  Still makes sense to pressurize
that device by a few mBar.  However extremly cold saltwater would be annoying, and a greater potential risk to life.

We can think we are lucky, as something that occurs naturaly in Antarctica can indicate a more ideal method.

Antarctic Dry Valley Lakes:  (Lots of Blah...Blah..)

https://www.cambridge.org/core/journals … F8D7B5BFD9
https://ui.adsabs.harvard.edu/abs/1989e … W/abstract

Well, you can investigate this youselves. 

Basically there are many types, from fresh and under deep ice, and hypersaline and very cold.

But there are some which have bottom water of about room temperature, and that apparently is from solar energy.  This is
related to a "Solar Salt Pond".  Which you can also further investigate.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solar_pond

A few of the natural ones of interest for this sub-topic, are those which actually have an ice window that light travels into
They also recieve thermal energy by a ~2 week summer period where melt water can enter them from temporary streams, or even
rivers.

The characteristics of these natural environments, are that they have very salty water on the bottom that can be even near
room temperature but that water is anoxic.  However the water under the ice is perhaps ~~~two times as salty as Ocean
water and is very Oxygenated due to algae, doing photosynthesis.  From light traveling through the ice.

Should an aproximation of this be attempted on Mars, I anticipate that extra energy has to be applied.   The bottom layers
can be anoxic or Oxygenated.  The same is true of the upper water layers.

That could convenience many things that might be considered useful for some variations of an agriculture.

However, my focus in this post is the airlock notions.

Such a body of water with stratification where cold is on top and warmer below, will present a top liquid water that is
~~~twice as salty as typical ocean water on Earth, and will likely be several degrees of whatever scale cooler than
liquid fresh water.

So, an airlock would likely be a shed with a "Barn Door(s)", and an ice fishing hole with a movable lid.

Only one being open at the same time.  Pressurization of the shed,would be pressurized Martian atmosphere.  This
would be applied with "Barn Doors" closed and lid up.  When the "Barn Doors" were open, then the lid should be
down.  So, in this way might be a method to bring pallets of materials in an out of the Surface<>Lake Bottom.

If you have questions, then ask them.

Scientists in general are horrified about the notion of melting Martian water and presenting microbes to that.  Their
case is not entirely wrong, but their lives about papers and science, and basically the dole of some kind.  But the
question needs to be asked.  "Are the end all of judgement of what is moral?".

I have to wonder if they alone can decide the fate of the human race? 

According to something I read a long time ago, there are "Aqusitioners, Priests, Warlords, and Intellectuals".  Can we
allow just one set of such to tell us what is or is not moral?

It is a question.  I don't have the answer yet, but something tells me that those who wish to hold the general human
race as livestock, may not be as moral as they indicate to us they are.

Done.


Done.

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#25 2021-10-06 11:14:07

tahanson43206
Moderator
Registered: 2018-04-27
Posts: 11,286

Re: Terraforming Mars, and connecting it functions to the other planemos

For Void re recent posts in topic ...

SearchTerm:Airlock liquid ??? Answer several posts later .... thermometer principle in reverse ... tube vertical above habitat with U bend into habitat

See image of Manifold found by Void...

You have demonstrated impressive ability to create graphic images of your ideas.

In this case, it appears you found the icehouse illustration to help us to understand where you might be going with this.

However, I suspect/hope your vision can be carried quite a bit forward.

Once again, I sense that one of your (many/many/many) ideas may have practical potential in the near term.

Please consider creating an image showing what a liquid air lock on Mars might look like.

My conjecture (waiting for your clarification) is that a pool of water/liquid? that has an open face outside the habitat, and an open face inside the habitat, might be expelled from the habitat by Mars Standard Habitat atmosphere (see RobertDyck Standard Mars Atmosphere specification).

If you can't find it, ask RobertDyck to show where it is (it actually exists in multiple locations).

At some point (I am hoping) RobertDyck will create a "Sticky" topic where you (and everyone) can find the standards he is recommending.

I am looking forward to seeing how you address the (to me interesting) problem of keeping your liquid airlock whole, when the habitat is trying to push it out to the surface of Mars.

Thanks for your many creative contributions to this forum!

(th)

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