Flag on Mars

louis · 2021-06-16 15:16:29

Some questions:

1. Do you think Space X will plant the US flag on Mars if they reach there?

2. Do you think Space X should plant the US flag on Mars if they reach there?

3. Will and should they plant other flags e.g. Texas, UN flag, their own Space X flag or a design for Mars?

kbd512 · 2021-06-16 15:48:40

Louis,

Have you ever noticed the American flag on all of SpaceX's rockets?

The resources of America is what allowed SpaceX to become a successful company.

SpaceX will plant the American flag on Mars, same as any other American-led mission would do.

If people from other countries come along for the ride, then they'll plant their own flags on Mars as well.

We don't plant other types of flags.

The UN hasn't done bean dip for space exploration, so I'm not sure why anyone would plant that flag.

RobertDyck · 2021-06-16 16:16:40

The United States is a signatory to the Outer Space Treaty. That treaty prohibits any nation from claiming any territory on any celestial body. So it would be inappropriate to plant the US flag.

Canada has an ongoing dispute over Hans Island in the arctic. Greenland is a territory of Denmark, Ellesmere Island is Canadian. Hans Island is an island half-way between Ellesmere and Greenland. Both nations claim it based on claims from the 1800s. If you use an equidistant line between Ellesmere & Greenland, the border would be right down the middle of Hans Island. It's a half-acre piece of rock that doesn't even have grass or weeds. But whoever controls that island, controls the shipping channel. Periodically the Denmark navy or Canadian navy arrives, takes down the flag of the other country, and puts up their own flag. That's what a flag means: territorial claim.

Ps. At one point the Danish minister for Greenland had sailors leave a bottle of fine Danish Cognac with a note welcoming the Canadian soldiers to Danish territory. Of course Canadian sailors drank it. Since then Canada has left a bottle of Crown Royal, the premium brand of Canadian Rye Whisky.

louis · 2021-06-16 16:44:45

I have. Well I thought I had and was going to mention that but got sidetracked. Glad for the confirmation.

I would agree that suggests they will plant the American flag. But always expect surprises from Musk...Maybe he'll also plant the flags of every other country on Earth. I just find it difficult to believe it is going to be like the lunar landing.

kbd512 wrote:

Louis,
Have you ever noticed the American flag on all of SpaceX's rockets?
The resources of America is what allowed SpaceX to become a successful company.
SpaceX will plant the American flag on Mars, same as any other American-led mission would do.
If people from other countries come along for the ride, then they'll plant their own flags on Mars as well.
We don't plant other types of flags.
The UN hasn't done bean dip for space exploration, so I'm not sure why anyone would plant that flag.

louis · 2021-06-16 16:49:11

But the OST applies to the Moon doesn't it and preceded the lunar landing where NASA planted the American flag.

That's interesting about Hans Island. Who would win a war between Canada and Denmark? A sneak attack up the St Lawrence can't be ruled out. The UK has Rockall - got to be one of the biggest territorial claims proportionate to the amount of land (Rockall could be renamed "F***all").

RobertDyck wrote:

The United States is a signatory to the Outer Space Treaty. That treaty prohibits any nation from claiming any territory on any celestial body. So it would be inappropriate to plan the US flag.
Canada has an ongoing dispute over Hans Island in the arctic. Greenland is a territory of Denmark, Ellesmere Island is Canadian. Hans Island is an island half-way between Ellesmere and Greenland. Both nations claim it based on claims from the 1800s. If you use an equidistant line between Ellesmere & Greenland, the border would be right down the middle of Hans Island. It's a half-acre piece of rock that doesn't even has grass or weeds. But whoever controls that island, controls the shipping channel. Periodically the Denmark navy or Canadian navy arrives, takes down the flag of the other country, and puts up their own flag. That's what a flag means: territorial claim.
Ps. At one point the Danish minister for Greenland had sailors leave a bottle of fine Danish Cognac with a note welcoming the Canadian soldiers to Danish territory. Of course Canadian sailors drank it. Since then Canada has left a bottle of Crown Royal, the premium brand of Canadian Rye Whisky.

kbd512 · 2021-06-16 18:02:15

RobertDyck wrote:

The United States is a signatory to the Outer Space Treaty. That treaty prohibits any nation from claiming any territory on any celestial body. So it would be inappropriate to plan the US flag.
Canada has an ongoing dispute over Hans Island in the arctic. Greenland is a territory of Denmark, Ellesmere Island is Canadian. Hans Island is an island half-way between Ellesmere and Greenland. Both nations claim it based on claims from the 1800s. If you use an equidistant line between Ellesmere & Greenland, the border would be right down the middle of Hans Island. It's a half-acre piece of rock that doesn't even has grass or weeds. But whoever controls that island, controls the shipping channel. Periodically the Denmark navy or Canadian navy arrives, takes down the flag of the other country, and puts up their own flag. That's what a flag means: territorial claim.
Ps. At one point the Danish minister for Greenland had sailors leave a bottle of fine Danish Cognac with a note welcoming the Canadian soldiers to Danish territory. Of course Canadian sailors drank it. Since then Canada has left a bottle of Crown Royal, the premium brand of Canadian Rye Whisky.

Robert,

Sticking a flag in the ground is not equivalent to claiming ownership. It's more like a sign that we were there. Notice how I said that other nations who decide to make the trip will also put their flags in the ground to demonstrate that they were there?

Remember the little speech Neil gave when he set foot on the moon?

He spoke about humanity, not America or America "owning" the moon. The explorers who went there risked their lives to increase humanity's knowledge of other worlds. And yes, it was a point of national pride that President Kennedy's challenge "to go to the moon" was met. We've made no attempt whatsoever to prevent anyone else from going to the moon. If memory serves, the last American on the moon issued a challenge to explorers from other nations to follow in his footsteps. That doesn't sound much like claiming ownership of anything.

RobertDyck · 2021-06-16 18:33:52

kbd512,

The astronauts were very professional. Politicians who funded the program and controlled its agenda were not.

One concern is I want Mars to be independent from Day 1. I have posted about Newfoundland before. I seriously believe we need that model. No Earth government in charge at all. But also remember what happened with California. It was a state of Mexico. Several American settlers immigrated to California. They didn't disavow their American citizenship, Mexico treated them as immigrants, but that's not how it worked out. When sufficient number of Americans were in northern California, a leader was sent to stir up trouble, organize a revolt. He did, the Bear Flag Revolt. I could go on, but don't want a repeat of history. Mars should be settled by free people, not individuals who swear allegiance to any Earth nation.

SpaceNut · 2021-06-16 18:35:14

Gee we would need to remove them all from all of the lunar landing sites.....

Probably his Dogie coin symbol....

dogecoin.jpg?w=790&f=0ba947c3139bcba74b1673c0b434956a

or maybe

louis · 2021-06-16 18:42:37

I think Robert's right in the sense that historically and legally it has long been recognised as a claim to ownership although clearly that was not the case with the USA and the lunar landings. OK you're both right!

kbd512 wrote:

RobertDyck wrote:
The United States is a signatory to the Outer Space Treaty. That treaty prohibits any nation from claiming any territory on any celestial body. So it would be inappropriate to plan the US flag.
Canada has an ongoing dispute over Hans Island in the arctic. Greenland is a territory of Denmark, Ellesmere Island is Canadian. Hans Island is an island half-way between Ellesmere and Greenland. Both nations claim it based on claims from the 1800s. If you use an equidistant line between Ellesmere & Greenland, the border would be right down the middle of Hans Island. It's a half-acre piece of rock that doesn't even has grass or weeds. But whoever controls that island, controls the shipping channel. Periodically the Denmark navy or Canadian navy arrives, takes down the flag of the other country, and puts up their own flag. That's what a flag means: territorial claim.
Ps. At one point the Danish minister for Greenland had sailors leave a bottle of fine Danish Cognac with a note welcoming the Canadian soldiers to Danish territory. Of course Canadian sailors drank it. Since then Canada has left a bottle of Crown Royal, the premium brand of Canadian Rye Whisky.
Robert,
Sticking a flag in the ground is not equivalent to claiming ownership. It's more like a sign that we were there. Notice how I said that other nations who decide to make the trip will also put their flags in the ground to demonstrate that they were there?
Remember the little speech Neil gave when he set foot on the moon?
He spoke about humanity, not America or America "owning" the moon. The explorers who went there risked their lives to increase humanity's knowledge of other worlds. And yes, it was a point of national pride that President Kennedy's challenge "to go to the moon" was met. We've made no attempt whatsoever to prevent anyone else from going to the moon. If memory serves, the last American on the moon issued a challenge to explorers from other nations to follow in his footsteps. That doesn't sound much like claiming ownership of anything.

louis · 2021-06-16 18:44:27

I presumed it was Doge as in leader of Venice but it's Dog E Coin pronounced Doggie Coin is it?

SpaceNut wrote:

Gee we would need to remove them all from all of the lunar landing sites.....
Probably his Dogie coin symbol....
https://d.newsweek.com/en/full/1779093/ … c0b434956a
or maybe
http://www.paleotechnologist.net/wp-con … n_moon.jpg

RobertDyck · 2021-06-16 18:52:49

louis wrote:

That's interesting about Hans Island. Who would win a war between Canada and Denmark? A sneak attack up the St Lawrence can't be ruled out. The UK has Rockall - got to be one of the biggest territorial claims proportionate to the amount of land (Rockall could be renamed "F***all").

Unfortunately there are government civil servants who are so imbued with propaganda that they actively interfere or destroy Canadian covert programs. The Chalk River Nuclear Research Facility was built as part of Canada's participation in the Manhattan Project during World War 2. Plutonium for the UK's first nuclear bomb came from there. After WW2 it was converted to produce medical isotopes. Canada invented medical isotopes. Those medical isotopes were produced in such a way that personnel would actively practice the skills they would need to manufacture nuclear weapons. That facility has been undermined by federal civil servants, last I read the reactor used to make bomb-grade plutonium wasn't operational, but that doesn't change the fact Canada is a nuclear capable country.

Denmark is a NATO ally. We don't want to get into a major conflict. But let's be clear, Denmark without Greenland has as much land area as the state of Virginia. Canada has more land area than all of the USA; in terms of land area Canada is second only to Russia. Denmark has a population of 5.84 million people, Canada has 38.0 million. We don't pick fights with little guys. Certainly not a little guy who's an ally.

louis · 2021-06-16 19:11:31

First thing I'd do if I was a Dane is put up some wind turbines and invite Greta Thunberg over to give a speech on the island. Won't look good when Canada tries to dismantle the wind turbines.

RobertDyck wrote:

louis wrote:
That's interesting about Hans Island. Who would win a war between Canada and Denmark? A sneak attack up the St Lawrence can't be ruled out. The UK has Rockall - got to be one of the biggest territorial claims proportionate to the amount of land (Rockall could be renamed "F***all").
Unfortunately there are government civil servants who are so imbued with propaganda that they actively interfere or destroy Canadian covert programs. The Chalk River Nuclear Research Facility was built as part of Canada's participation in the Manhattan Project during World War 2. Plutonium for the UK's first nuclear bomb came from there. After WW2 it was converted to produce medical isotopes. Canada invented medical isotopes. Those medical isotopes were produced in such a way that personnel would actively practice the skills they would need to manufacture nuclear weapons. That facility has been undermined by federal civil servants, last I read the reactor used to make bomb-grade plutonium wasn't operational, but that doesn't change the fact Canada is a nuclear capable country.
Denmark is a NATO ally. We don't want to get into a major conflict. But let's be clear, Denmark without Greenland has as much land area as the state of Virginia. Canada has more land area than all of the USA; in terms of land area Canada is second only to Russia. Denmark has a population of 5.84 million people, Canada has 38.0 million. We don't pick fights with little guys. Certainly not a little guy who's an ally.

kbd512 · 2021-06-16 21:32:37

Robert,

After giving Americans crap for planting our flag on the moon, you counter with insinuating that you'd nuke Denmark over an island that, by your own admission, Canada doesn't even care about?

Canada "invented" medical isotopes? I'll inform Glen Seaborg and Emilio Segrè, or their grandchildren. I'm sure that's news to them.

Louis,

Quit antagonizing the Canadians and Danes.

Beyond that, can we quit encouraging the media to put their fellow mental patients on TV? They all belong in a funny farm, not making speeches to other nutcases.

SpaceNut,

My vote is for leaving a Tesla Truck on Mars with a giant cheese wheel painted on the side of it. Everyone will still know it was America, even without a flag. More to the point, it's absolutely hilarious that this is what people fret over when there's a screaming hypersonic reentry, six orbital refueling events, a few tens of millions of miles to cover, and the cavalry isn't coming if something goes wrong over the next two years. You'd think they'd be more concerned over those "minor details" of the journey, but I guess not. C'est la vie!

RobertDyck · 2021-06-16 22:57:53

kbd512,
You have a talent for turning things around. After Louis suggested Denmark would mount a major invasion of Canada, I said that I wouldn't be intimidated. So you make it sound as if I'm the aggressor. Interesting. By the way, I'm having a bad week so far, don't push me.

So why do you want America to rule Mars? I thought the whole point of moving to another planet is to tell government to go to hell. So why do you want to bring you own government along?

Calliban · 2021-06-17 01:48:36

The point is that neither Denmark nor Canada are interested enough in the island to put a permanent presence there. It would be expensive and it certainly isn't worth fighting over unless one side or another attempts to use it to restrict the sea lanes. So they both make token gestures: the Danes leaving biscuits and the Canadians leaving whisky. The way things are going, you are more likely to be fighting off the Chinese than the Danes. They seem to be building bases everywhere and are becoming more belligerent.

kbd512 · 2021-06-17 04:49:51

Robert,

I don't want America to "rule Mars". For better or worse, right now America has the only credible space program (public and private) to get people to other planets within the next decade or so. Before we tell off our own government, since they have the patents for all of the closed loop life support technologies and much of the advanced engine technologies, plus stuff we don't even know about, some of us would like to firmly establish the colonies there first. Some of us are also not so intent on telling the government to go to hell as we are in getting them to stop screwing with everyone else and to stop trying to bankrupt everyone by spending us into oblivion. I just want our government to stay in their lane, and for them to cease and desist with their asinine agendas that hurt ordinary working men and women to benefit freeloaders or people who are already so wealthy that they don't need more public money to line their pockets with.

Oldfart1939 · 2021-06-17 09:13:03

The US brought along flags to the Moon, but did NOT make a claim of ownership or sovereign dominion there. Mountaineers often take their countries' flags to summits as a symbol that "they were there."

One might look at the Flag that Armstrong and Aldrin took along as a "We paid for the trip" symbol."

Last edited by Oldfart1939 (2021-06-17 09:39:06)

RobertDyck · 2021-06-17 09:15:20

kbd512,

I tried. I got involved in politics, won the nomination for my federal electoral district. It's supposed to be called "riding" here in Canada, former Prime Minister Stephen Harper sent his candidates to Republican School in the states. He also had Elections Canada, the federal election authority here, change the name to the American term. They don't listen, won't "stay in their lane". I agreed with the direction Paul Martin was going. I said if he ever became leader of his party, I would join. He did, so I did. Paul Martin was leader of the Liberal party, but he and his supporters are very moderate. Paul Martin believed in reducing government spending, reducing the debt, reducing taxes. He strongly believed in ensuring government "stay in their lane". But the left-wing extremists within the party, didn't like this, back-stabbed our own leader. Within the Democrat party, they're called "progressives". However, I feel they're beyond progressive, these people are out-right socialist. We have a party in Canada that is explicitly socialist, it's called NDP. The NDP has never won a federal election in Canada, although they have won provincial elections from time to time. Supporters of our current Prime Minister are the left-wing socialist faction of the Liberal party. They certainly have no intention of "staying in their lane". In fact, I and other Paul Martin supporters are now considered pariah within our party. I could give details of what was done to me to remove my nomination for the 2008 federal election. Most people consider it "whiny", even though it means my career has been destroyed. And I'm not the only candidate who faced such a draconian fate.

In your country, I never liked Donald Trump. But I have met many people who think the US government is beyond redemption. For 3 decades now there have been American citizens who feel the only way to fix the corruption and extreme overreach is another armed revolution. I have tried to convince my American friends to resolve the problems with elections, not violence. Find a candidate who agrees with your agenda, and support him/her. But they feel the rich have got the system rigged. Some of those people supported Donald Trump, and saw Trump as their saviour. But the rich saw Trump as the devil incarnate. Trump did a lot of things wrong, but what we hear through the media is extreme exaggeration. Establishment was shocked by storming of Congress in January, but frankly that has been coming for 30 years. I'm seriously worried. If the rich continue to lock-down their agenda, the US is headed for another civil war. I keep thinking of what happened the last time America had a civil war: 1861-1865. It was one of the bloodiest war in world history at the time. Of course surpassed by WW1 & WW2, but I looked at a list of wars and surprised to find how many people died in other wars. Still, the Civil War is on the list.

In the early 2000s, I tried to look at why we want to go to Mars. Many things can be fixed here. I tried, did win the nomination for the 2008 election, but got personally destroyed. Government has shown they have no intention to "stay in their lane". It's time to leave, start over.

Calliban · 2021-06-17 09:46:55

I would be depressed if I felt that I had contributed in any way to Justin Trudeau's rise to power. I'm not surprised that it depresses you. Being in the same party as that guy must weigh heavily on your soul. He is a moron and a national embarrassment to Canada and the entire western world. He gaffes practically every time he opens his mouth. He is a sort of over-exfoliated, woke, kidult, inflicted on Canada by the global Davos elite. It would be funny, if the consequences were not so serious. It says a lot that you would literally go to another planet, rather than deal with a world messed up enough for such a man to be in charge of a large part of its land mass. For Justin Trudaeu to actually get voted into government, says some really bad things about the self-esteem of Canadian voters.

Last edited by Calliban (2021-06-17 09:53:07)

RobertDyck · 2021-06-17 10:41:33

Calliban,
Thank you. Actually, I agreed with some things Trudeau did. But he has done a lot I don't. Previous Prime Minister Stephen Harper just had to go. The question is who to replace him? Trudeau proved good at campaigning. Unfortunately Trudeau has failed to fix a lot of the problems that Stephen Harper has introduced. But who do we replace him with now? The Conservative party? Stephen Harper's party? Why would we trust them? We're currently screwed.

kbd512 · 2021-06-17 15:14:58

Robert,

Well then, we can agree on that much. I also think it's time to start over on Mars while there's still a chance, before another Civil War wrecks the only nation capable of sending people there that actually cares even a little bit about human life. China is the only other possibility and everyone should know by now what they're all about, and it's not respecting personal freedom.

Maintaining absolute power does seem to be what the divisive agenda of this New Democrat Party is attempting to achieve, although they must be stunningly ignorant of how well division has historically worked out for them. The last time we Republicans were finally fed up with the Democrats' nonsense, we took their slaves away from them. The moment the majority of Republicans collectively "smell the coffee", the Democrats' asinine game will be over. However, I wonder how radically different America will become by the time that happens.

I'm not sure what to say about Trudeau, other than he seems like Canada's version of California's Governor Gavin Newsom. At least yall don't have a dementia patient as your President and Governor Cuomo isn't running your old folks homes, so be thankful for minor miracles. Anyway, let's try to "fly under the radar" while the Democrats busy themselves with their pointless anti-social agendas.

Oldfart1939 · 2021-06-17 22:23:01

kdb512-
There's really not much chance that the mainstream media will stop beating that divisive "racist" drum. Divide and conquer. That's the New Far Left Mantra. This is essentially the Communist Manifesto being played out before our eyes. The "haves" vs. the "have nots." The "People of Color" vs. "Whitey."

I was a medic in my Army days, and it didn't matter what color the injured or wounded were wearing the uniform, because they all bled red, white, and blue.

Last edited by Oldfart1939 (2021-06-17 22:23:35)

tahanson43206 · 2021-06-18 04:47:03

For Oldfart1939 re #23

I agree with you on this one. Louis may have had idealism in mind when he created this topic in Human Missions, but it's difficult to keep a discussion about symbols (such as flags) at a high level.

However, it would be up to SpaceNut to undertake the work of actually moving the posts. There is no tool available to move a topic or it's contents.

The work has to be done by simple copy-and-paste, followed by delete of the original post.

Oh ho! ... in looking at the commands available to a Moderator, I see this:

Options: Moderate topic - Move topic - Close topic - Stick topic

For SpaceNut ... what do you think?

(th)

SpaceNut · 2021-06-18 08:09:22

I do hope that the part of the discusion is done as we all want to be able to live together on mars and have free and open communications back to earth without repercussions. We want a trade system to benefit each of mans civilizations that we create.

tahanson43206 · 2021-06-18 09:44:26

For SpaceNut .... that was ** slick ** ... the move was so smooth I did not realize it had occurred until I double checked!

(th)

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#1 2021-06-16 15:16:29

Flag on Mars

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