New Mars Forums

Official discussion forum of The Mars Society and MarsNews.com

You are not logged in.

Announcement

Announcement: As a reader of NewMars forum, we have opportunities for you to assist with technical discussions in several initiatives underway. NewMars needs volunteers with appropriate education, skills, talent, motivation and generosity of spirit as a highly valued member. Write to newmarsmember * gmail.com to tell us about your ability's to help contribute to NewMars and become a registered member.

#1 2017-03-08 14:11:42

Scott Beach
Banned
Registered: 2017-02-21
Posts: 132

Bonobos and the Empress of Mars

I recently downloaded a document titled Transform Your Life and Save the World Through Living In Support of the Biological Truth About the Human Condition (First Edition), authored by Jeremy Griffith and published in 2016 by the World Transformation Movement.

I wondered whether that document might contain something relevant to transforming Mars.  It does.  It contains the following paragraphs:

Researchers have also reported that ‘bonobos historically have existed in a stable environment rich in sources of food...and unlike chimpanzees have developed a more cohesive social structure’.  For example, ‘up to 100 bonobos at a time from several groups spend their night together.  That would not be possible with chimpanzees because there would be brutal fighting between rival groups.’

Note that what’s being said about bonobos is amazingly similar—well, it’s almost identical—to how Plato described our distant ancestors long before bonobos were even known of, which was that they ‘dwelt naked, and mostly in the open air...and they had no beds, but lay on soft couches of grass’. And, in Hesiod’s words, ‘They with abundant goods ’midst quiet lands / All willing shared the gathering of their hands.’

Bonobos’ unlimited capacity for love is also apparent in this truly amazing  first-hand account from researcher Vanessa Woods: ‘Bonobo love is like a laser beam. They stop. They stare at you as though they have been waiting their whole lives for you to walk into their jungle. And then they love you with such helpless abandon that you love them back. You have to love them back’.

And significantly, unlike other primate societies, bonobo society is matriarchal and focused on the nurturing of their infants, as this quote evidences: ‘Bonobo life is centered around the offspring. Unlike what happens among chimpanzees, all members of the bonobo social group help with infant care and share food with infants. If you are a bonobo infant, you can do no wrong...Bonobo females and their infants form the core of the group’.

All these descriptions (and you can read many more in chapter 5 of FREEDOM) provide powerful insights into how amazingly cooperative and loving bonobos, our closest living relative, are.

In a previous post I pondered the possibility that Mars might have an “Emperor” who performs specified ceremonial duties.  And I suggested that the government of Mars might be described as an “imperial republic”. 

     http://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.php … 88#p135088

The foregoing information about bonobos makes me think that the “Imperial Republic of Mars” should have an “Empress”, who appoints a “President” who presides over meetings of the “Parliament of Mars”.  The President would open each session of the Parliament by reminding its members that their first duty is to make Mars into the best place in the Solar System for children to grow up.


"It is possible to build a rational and humane culture completely free from the threat of supernatural restraints."  Arthur C. Clarke, The Songs of Distant Earth

Offline

#2 2017-03-08 14:26:32

Terraformer
Member
From: Logres
Registered: 2007-08-27
Posts: 3,362
Website

Re: Bonobos and the Empress of Mars

Yet out of chimpanzees, bonobos, and humans, we're the only ones capable of even contemplating settling Mars, in large part because we don't lounge around all day.

Your micronation bores me. Do you even sell fantasy passports?


"I guarantee you that at some point, everything's going to go south on you, and you're going to say, 'This is it, this is how I end.' Now you can either accept that, or you can get to work." - Mark Watney

Offline

#3 2017-03-08 18:57:06

RobertDyck
Moderator
From: Winnipeg, Canada
Registered: 2002-08-20
Posts: 6,744
Website

Re: Bonobos and the Empress of Mars

A lot of social scientists have studied chimpanzees and bonobos. Documentaries that I've seen on TV present a more balanced approach. Getting anything done requires an incentive, the rich world of bonobos encourages sloth. But too aggressive competition results in destruction. Humans have achieved balance. We cooperate so several individuals can work together, achieving tasks that cannot be accomplished by a single individual. And we can specialize, allowing much greater depth of skill than someone who has to spread his/her time and attention on many different skills. And for the most part we don't destroy each others work or steal. But at the same time we compete, which encourages individuals or small groups (companies) to develop new and better ways of doing things. We can survive in harsh environments that would not allow an ape to survive. One population of ancient humans moved to Siberia at the beginning of the last ice age. The beginning!!! Their food source was mega-fauna: mammoth, woolly rhinoceros, steppe bison, aurochs (ancestors of cattle), etc. The harsh environment forced them to evolve, becoming Mongoloid (Oriental). They couldn't survive without cooperation, and certainly didn't have a bountiful environment.

An interesting, related piece of trivia: there are 2 major species of Gorilla, mountain and lowland. These can be divided into subspecies, but there are 2 species. The genus is called "Gorillia". There are 2 species of genus Pan: chimpanzee and bonobo. And there were 2 species in the genus Homo: Homo Sapiens Sapiens (humans), and Homo Neanderthalensis (Neanderthal). So each genus of the family Hominidae has two species.

::Edit:: The family Hominidea is commonly known as great apes. Yes, that includes us. There is a 4th genus: Pongo. It also has 2 species: Bornean and Sumatran orangutan.

Last edited by RobertDyck (2017-03-09 06:34:56)

Offline

#4 2017-03-12 04:33:51

elderflower
Member
Registered: 2016-06-19
Posts: 1,262

Re: Bonobos and the Empress of Mars

Other now extinct hominins have been discovered eg Denisovans, Floresians.

Offline

#5 2017-03-12 08:37:59

SpaceNut
Administrator
From: New Hampshire
Registered: 2004-07-22
Posts: 23,122

Re: Bonobos and the Empress of Mars

This is more than likely the common ancestry tree due to many earth restarts due to near inhilation and global ice..

italian_exhibit_1.jpg

Offline

#6 2017-03-12 23:15:24

Tom Kalbfus
Banned
Registered: 2006-08-16
Posts: 4,401

Re: Bonobos and the Empress of Mars

I don't think Chimpanzees and Bonobos would be very happy on Mars, they are tropical animals, and Mars is a cold place!

Offline

#7 2017-09-24 16:58:35

SpaceNut
Administrator
From: New Hampshire
Registered: 2004-07-22
Posts: 23,122

Re: Bonobos and the Empress of Mars

HUMINT = Human Intelligence.

The artificial intellegence machines which are in process are being shut down as the units are creating there own language....

Offline

#8 2017-10-14 22:39:16

Komiyama
Banned
From: Earth
Registered: 2017-10-12
Posts: 8

Re: Bonobos and the Empress of Mars

I suppose one could make the same argument for those on Earth (ごめんなさい、 天皇陛下!), but what exactly would be the point of a ceremonial Emperor of Mars?


Earthling. Unprofessional writer. Bromancer.

Offline

#9 2017-10-15 03:19:05

clark
Member
Registered: 2001-09-20
Posts: 6,278

Re: Bonobos and the Empress of Mars

The point of a ceremonial Emperor on Mars is ceremony.

I think Mr. Beach is on to something.

Mars is a dead, barren rock of rust and red where two tiny zipping dots constitute moons and the sun is a sickly dim bulb shining down on we few, the crazy and delusional, who haven given up the open sky, sea and earth, sing merry hand in hand encased in metal while low gravity hallows us out from within.

I think it brilliant to have ceremony to fill this empty void. I think it brilliant to have the Emperor of Mars select our leader, because we are obviously mad to begin with, so leaving it to the crazies to decide who should lead them would just be insane.

And I for one think that any government of mars should stress the need to make Mars more hospitable, because you know, it really isn't.

I suggest the Mars credo should be something to the effect of, "Making a terrible idea, a little better."

Offline

#10 2021-05-16 05:57:20

Mars_B4_Moon
Member
Registered: 2006-03-23
Posts: 885

Re: Bonobos and the Empress of Mars

Sometimes you know we can barely masters and manage our own eco-system, an example from Aus all the introduced Species in Australia becoming pests and reeking havoc. A lot of you might know that Simpsons cartoon, Bart Junior was a frog that Bart caught. It was later brought over to Australia, it mutiples like crazy and goes out of control. That of course was just a toon but in real life foreign species and plant introduced to Aus do cause huge problems.

an engineered planet with an Emperor ruling a planet of genetically engineered apes...sounds like fiction....because it is!!

Are Royalty and Emperors really a good thing...why did the United States even fight a revolution, a war of independence?
Recently did one member of a Royal family get blackmailed, was he involved in terrible human trafficking crimes on a pedophile island owned by a guy named Epstein, members of police, intelligence, FBI, CIA and foreign groups involved in a massive crime and cover up?
How would rule of Law work with some North Korea style Supreme Leader/Dictator calling the shots?
...what will happen when your Mars Emperor is blackmailed and compromised?

oh but you're Emperor might be just ceremonial... like Japan?

Japan the East, they sometimes share Western culture like Rome and other cultures, people try to compare both?
インペラトル? インペリウム命令権 を付与された公職者であることを意味するラテン語. 古代ローマにおいて、対外戦争で成功を収めた軍司令官

Komiyama wrote:

I suppose one could make the same argument for those on Earth (ごめんなさい、 天皇陛下!)


Elon Musk Claims To Be The 'Imperator Of Mars'
https://wonderfulengineering.com/elon-m … r-of-mars/

Musk unveils SpaceX rocket designed to get to Mars and back
https://wonderfulengineering.com/elon-m … r-of-mars/

The English word for emperor derives from Rome imperator via Old French: Empereür. The Roman emperors themselves generally based their authority on multiple titles and positions, rather than preferring any single title. It's almost suggesting a role like a Science Fictional Video game Scifi comicbook character, the imperator was used relatively consistently as an element of a Roman ruler's title throughout the principate region and the dominate of Rome.

Musk poss weird stuff on his social media accounts
Personally I think Musk might be joking and trolling

elderflower wrote:

Other now extinct hominins have been discovered eg Denisovans, Floresians.

I'm not sure about the new version of the old 'Great Ape' grown in a lab, probably watched too many Planet of the Apes and Frankenstein type scifi movies to know the feeling on how that one might turn out.
One form of Great walking Ape higher primate vs Another Hominidae, these Apes if they understand they have been transported and caught and worked you think they will be happy as Workhorses, Mules, Powering fixed machinery, Draught animals, Beasts of Burden, even looking in the far decades ahead we have no foreseeable future where sniffer dogs would detect mines on Mars or bombs, we have no reason to use Homing pigeons.

It is possible some kind of genetically engineered dog or bug or rodent or cat or mule or fungus or tree or plant might one day become important on Mars. However right now I see no reason to put an engineered Ape on Mars.

clark wrote:

I suggest the Mars credo should be something to the effect of, "Making a terrible idea, a little better."

The super-Men or Übermensch  is coming?...was that a good or bad idea....if you fix a guys arm or leg damaged by an accident or a war is that not a positive thing.
I guess the debate has opened up again and it moved away from the Bush-era Stem cell controversy.

Although some say a terrible thing can happen in our future if we have a created situation of one class of human vs another

Space Force Chief Scientist: “Human Augmentation” Is Now Necessary
https://metro.co.uk/2021/04/29/us-space … -14493027/
...cloned Enginnered Humans, Cyber-Men, Supersoldiers & AI generals?
said that “human augmentation” is “imperative” in order for dominance??

Last edited by Mars_B4_Moon (2021-05-16 06:02:53)

Offline

#11 2021-05-16 17:06:53

louis
Member
From: UK
Registered: 2008-03-24
Posts: 6,871

Re: Bonobos and the Empress of Mars

Musk is a little weird, on that we can all agree. But he has said he'd like to see a direct democracy on Mars.

There is an opportunity here to create a well functioning democracy on Mars. But it will need a lot of forethought and planning.

Personally I'd like to see a more modern tech version of Swiss style referenda democracy with lots of checks and balances.

But first things first, the Mars settlement needs to declare itself sovereign over the whole planet.

Mars_B4_Moon wrote:

Sometimes you know we can barely masters and manage our own eco-system, an example from Aus all the introduced Species in Australia becoming pests and reeking havoc. A lot of you might know that Simpsons cartoon, Bart Junior was a frog that Bart caught. It was later brought over to Australia, it mutiples like crazy and goes out of control. That of course was just a toon but in real life foreign species and plant introduced to Aus do cause huge problems.

an engineered planet with an Emperor ruling a planet of genetically engineered apes...sounds like fiction....because it is!!

Are Royalty and Emperors really a good thing...why did the United States even fight a revolution, a war of independence?
Recently did one member of a Royal family get blackmailed, was he involved in terrible human trafficking crimes on a pedophile island owned by a guy named Epstein, members of police, intelligence, FBI, CIA and foreign groups involved in a massive crime and cover up?
How would rule of Law work with some North Korea style Supreme Leader/Dictator calling the shots?
...what will happen when your Mars Emperor is blackmailed and compromised?

oh but you're Emperor might be just ceremonial... like Japan?

Japan the East, they sometimes share Western culture like Rome and other cultures, people try to compare both?
インペラトル? インペリウム命令権 を付与された公職者であることを意味するラテン語. 古代ローマにおいて、対外戦争で成功を収めた軍司令官

Komiyama wrote:

I suppose one could make the same argument for those on Earth (ごめんなさい、 天皇陛下!)


Elon Musk Claims To Be The 'Imperator Of Mars'
https://wonderfulengineering.com/elon-m … r-of-mars/

Musk unveils SpaceX rocket designed to get to Mars and back
https://wonderfulengineering.com/elon-m … r-of-mars/

The English word for emperor derives from Rome imperator via Old French: Empereür. The Roman emperors themselves generally based their authority on multiple titles and positions, rather than preferring any single title. It's almost suggesting a role like a Science Fictional Video game Scifi comicbook character, the imperator was used relatively consistently as an element of a Roman ruler's title throughout the principate region and the dominate of Rome.

Musk poss weird stuff on his social media accounts
Personally I think Musk might be joking and trolling

elderflower wrote:

Other now extinct hominins have been discovered eg Denisovans, Floresians.

I'm not sure about the new version of the old 'Great Ape' grown in a lab, probably watched too many Planet of the Apes and Frankenstein type scifi movies to know the feeling on how that one might turn out.
One form of Great walking Ape higher primate vs Another Hominidae, these Apes if they understand they have been transported and caught and worked you think they will be happy as Workhorses, Mules, Powering fixed machinery, Draught animals, Beasts of Burden, even looking in the far decades ahead we have no foreseeable future where sniffer dogs would detect mines on Mars or bombs, we have no reason to use Homing pigeons.

It is possible some kind of genetically engineered dog or bug or rodent or cat or mule or fungus or tree or plant might one day become important on Mars. However right now I see no reason to put an engineered Ape on Mars.

clark wrote:

I suggest the Mars credo should be something to the effect of, "Making a terrible idea, a little better."

The super-Men or Übermensch  is coming?...was that a good or bad idea....if you fix a guys arm or leg damaged by an accident or a war is that not a positive thing.
I guess the debate has opened up again and it moved away from the Bush-era Stem cell controversy.

Although some say a terrible thing can happen in our future if we have a created situation of one class of human vs another

Space Force Chief Scientist: “Human Augmentation” Is Now Necessary
https://metro.co.uk/2021/04/29/us-space … -14493027/
...cloned Enginnered Humans, Cyber-Men, Supersoldiers & AI generals?
said that “human augmentation” is “imperative” in order for dominance??


Let's Go to Mars...Google on: Fast Track to Mars blogspot.com

Offline

Board footer

Powered by FluxBB