New Mars Forums

Official discussion forum of The Mars Society and MarsNews.com

You are not logged in.

Announcement

Announcement: As a reader of NewMars forum, we have opportunities for you to assist with technical discussions in several initiatives underway. NewMars needs volunteers with appropriate education, skills, talent, motivation and generosity of spirit as a highly valued member. Write to newmarsmember * gmail.com to tell us about your ability's to help contribute to NewMars and become a registered member.

#1 2021-03-08 10:50:46

Oldfart1939
Member
Registered: 2016-11-26
Posts: 2,237

SpaceX Moon lander

I've diligently been watching the test hops of SN-8, SN-9, and finally SM-10. It has been glaringly obvious that the landing legs are a real weakness in the present iterations of Starship. Since the Lunar Lander version will require robust legs and a much wider stance, the weight load imposed by Falcon 9 style legs can be offset by removal of the flaps required for Earth return. No amount of technical wizardry is required beyond a sophomore course in Statics. The center of mass must fall within the polygon described by the points of contact for the landing legs. Otherwise, it topples over and everything is lost.

Offline

#2 2021-03-08 12:37:26

louis
Member
From: UK
Registered: 2008-03-24
Posts: 6,919

Re: SpaceX Moon lander

I've seen suggestions in videos that Space X realise the landing legs are not a permanent solution. But their approach does seem a bit odd.

I wondered whether it related to their wish to master engine firing incrementally so initially they didn't want too much leg weight with the initial rockets. Would that make some kind of sense?  Presumably the legs and the batteries to operate them are going to weigh a good few tonnes...


Let's Go to Mars...Google on: Fast Track to Mars blogspot.com

Offline

#3 2021-03-08 17:01:46

Oldfart1939
Member
Registered: 2016-11-26
Posts: 2,237

Re: SpaceX Moon lander

The landing legs shouldn't weigh that much in comparison to the massive thrust of the Raptor engines. The vehicles have been flown with reduced engine power and the concern was there could be a "flame out" if they were throttled back too much during landings.

Offline

#4 2021-03-08 17:47:46

SpaceNut
Administrator
From: New Hampshire
Registered: 2004-07-22
Posts: 23,393

Re: SpaceX Moon lander

Here is the collection of pictures and such from the other topic that belongs here

Current versions and projected path for developement.

starship_0dc73f4d-2127-40f0-b9af-82d565b594e0_large.gif?v=1580865266

launch pad base
Starship-Boca-Chica-102220-NASASpaceflight-Nomadd-SN8-nose-mate-2-crop-scaled.jpg

Version11-1.jpg

Lunar leg version
C7F76D98-73F2-4E14-8C38-58823310CA25-scaled.jpeg

projected lunar base
BB1cc9Av.img?h=491&w=799&m=6&q=60&o=f&l=f

Of course to get back home requires a heat shield and this is where its at
testing of heatshield tile video
tEX3bYcnXEzskZQF?format=jpg&name=small

Mr. Musk noted that the tiles passed their testing with flying colors, reaching white-hot orbital entry temperatures of roughly 1650 Kelvin (1,377 'C – or 2,510 'F).

Mr. Musk also revealed the hexagonal shape was chosen as it does not allow a straight path for hot gas to accelerate through any gaps in the heat shield – a critical component for reentry heating protection.

SpaceX%2BStarhopper%252C%2BStarship%2Band%2BSuper%2BHeavy%2Bmodel%2Bcomparison%2Bwith%2Bheight%2Bby%2BKimi%2BTalvitie.jpg

Screen-Shot-2020-02-05-at-12.49.03-PM-730x430.jpg


mk4-1024x505.jpg


Screen-Shot-2019-01-10-at-8.52.13-AM-1024x839.png

Offline

#5 2021-03-09 10:49:38

Oldfart1939
Member
Registered: 2016-11-26
Posts: 2,237

Re: SpaceX Moon lander

My understanding is, the Lunar version will NOT NEED any thermal protection for Earth return, as it will either remain on the lunar surface, or simply become a deep space shuttle between LEO and the lunar surface.

Offline

#6 2021-03-09 20:02:45

SpaceNut
Administrator
From: New Hampshire
Registered: 2004-07-22
Posts: 23,393

Re: SpaceX Moon lander

https://www.teslarati.com/spacex-nasa-l … wed-tests/

The lunar star ship requires multiple passenger transfers from what I was reading as its only meant to go from lunar orbit to the moons surface and back once it makes it there after the first such landings. The ship the moves from lunar orbit to LEO will need aerocapture breaking using a heat shield to be able to stay is orbit to make a transfer to a ship that would bring them home to earth. That ship will need heat shield materials to be able to make the entry into the earths atmospher.

https://www.teslarati.com/spacex-starsh … prototype/

Starship-SpaceX-Moon-vs-Moon-1-c-1536x868.jpg

Offline

#7 2021-03-24 17:34:23

SpaceNut
Administrator
From: New Hampshire
Registered: 2004-07-22
Posts: 23,393

Re: SpaceX Moon lander

Once on the earth departure is there any benefit to do a moon orbital burn or can we direct land as that would require correction timing burns to hit any location anytime as we attempt to land. Part two is after either means do we need refueling to land at earth or would we be doing a burn to meet up with an orbiting taxi.

Offline

#8 2021-03-29 09:38:46

Oldfart1939
Member
Registered: 2016-11-26
Posts: 2,237

Re: SpaceX Moon lander

News article: NASA is still planning HLS awards by end of April.

Link:https://spacenews.com/nasa-still-planning-hls-awards-by-the-end-of-april/

Offline

#9 2021-03-31 17:07:38

SpaceNut
Administrator
From: New Hampshire
Registered: 2004-07-22
Posts: 23,393

Re: SpaceX Moon lander

https://youtu.be/DERc_LOzmkc
Moon space x video

Offline

#10 2021-04-16 20:28:20

SpaceNut
Administrator
From: New Hampshire
Registered: 2004-07-22
Posts: 23,393

Re: SpaceX Moon lander

Looks ke a choice has been made announced the partnership on Friday - a new $2.9 billion contract. land two astronauts on the moon as soon as 2024 as part of the agency's Artemis program.

"NASA is providing insight throughout this development and is ensuring that this system will be safe for our astronauts," Lisa Watson-Morgan, manager of the agency's Human Landing System program, said in Friday's briefing.


"We are confident in NASA's partnership with SpaceX to help us achieve the Artemis mission, and look forward to continuing our work toward landing astronauts on the moon to prepare for the next giant leap towards Mars," she added.

Offline

#11 2021-04-16 22:02:02

Oldfart1939
Member
Registered: 2016-11-26
Posts: 2,237

Re: SpaceX Moon lander

I saw the announcement on Reddit this afternoon, but was not close to my computer to make the report.

Offline

#12 2021-04-16 22:19:26

SpaceNut
Administrator
From: New Hampshire
Registered: 2004-07-22
Posts: 23,393

Re: SpaceX Moon lander

Hoping that the not invented here by Nasa syndrome does not happen again as did the Red Dragons hole in the heat shield for leg problem with the legs to land on the moons surface....

Offline

#13 2021-04-16 22:43:33

Oldfart1939
Member
Registered: 2016-11-26
Posts: 2,237

Re: SpaceX Moon lander

The price quoted is a bargain and affordable without too much extra funding being raised by NASA.

Offline

#14 2021-04-16 23:20:42

Oldfart1939
Member
Registered: 2016-11-26
Posts: 2,237

Re: SpaceX Moon lander

This is a pretty good summary of the award to SpaceX.

https://spacenews.com/nasa-selects-spac … ar-lander/

Offline

#15 2021-04-17 16:59:46

Oldfart1939
Member
Registered: 2016-11-26
Posts: 2,237

Re: SpaceX Moon lander

The Angry Astronaut has a good analysis of the NASA decision to fund SpaceX lunar lander.

Scott Manley does too, and as does Marcus House.

The SpaceX renders show 3 meter diameter pads on the landing legs (4 legs). as well

Last edited by Oldfart1939 (2021-04-17 17:02:42)

Offline

#16 2021-04-17 17:02:33

tahanson43206
Moderator
Registered: 2018-04-27
Posts: 7,671

Re: SpaceX Moon lander

Here's another view of the award ... hopefully it is not an exact duplicate ...

https://phys.org/news/2021-04-nasa-spac … -moon.html

(th)

Online

#17 2021-04-17 17:40:28

louis
Member
From: UK
Registered: 2008-03-24
Posts: 6,919

Re: SpaceX Moon lander

Space X: Legs? Yeah, whatever, we'll sort that out later.

Oldfart1939 wrote:

The Angry Astronaut has a good analysis of the NASA decision to fund SpaceX lunar lander.

Scott Manley does too, and as does Marcus House.

The SpaceX renders show 3 meter diameter pads on the landing legs (4 legs). as well


Let's Go to Mars...Google on: Fast Track to Mars blogspot.com

Offline

#18 2021-04-17 17:42:27

louis
Member
From: UK
Registered: 2008-03-24
Posts: 6,919

Re: SpaceX Moon lander

So basically NASA are going to pay for a Space X Mars landing proving mission! Great!!


Let's Go to Mars...Google on: Fast Track to Mars blogspot.com

Offline

#19 2021-04-17 23:20:32

Oldfart1939
Member
Registered: 2016-11-26
Posts: 2,237

Re: SpaceX Moon lander

Scott Manley seem to think that the successful manned missions to the ISS had a strong influence on NASA. It built a partnership of success. And is an indicator that moving forward, SpaceX and NASA will partner the Mars missions.

He also seems to think there will be protests from the National Team, LockMart, Orbital/Grumman, and howls from BO.

Offline

#20 2021-04-18 09:00:29

SpaceNut
Administrator
From: New Hampshire
Registered: 2004-07-22
Posts: 23,393

Re: SpaceX Moon lander

Nasa needs cheap and speed to flight to make timeline and with those things Space x has the only flight capable ship even if its not currently with men on board for gaining an avenue to getting to the moon.
Had others been building and not doing design they would be still in the running. They still have time but they must produce something that is flying.....

Offline

#21 2021-04-19 16:30:15

Oldfart1939
Member
Registered: 2016-11-26
Posts: 2,237

Re: SpaceX Moon lander

SpaceX has real flight-worthy vehicles being tested NOW. No more vaporware or paper rocket that will take several years to complete; only ULA with their Vulcan Centaur is remotely in the running. BO still hasn't revealed where they are with the New Glenn.

Offline

#22 2021-04-19 16:58:56

louis
Member
From: UK
Registered: 2008-03-24
Posts: 6,919

Re: SpaceX Moon lander

I hope that Space X never agree to NASA as an equal partner in the Mars Mission. That would be the kiss of death.

Oldfart1939 wrote:

Scott Manley seem to think that the successful manned missions to the ISS had a strong influence on NASA. It built a partnership of success. And is an indicator that moving forward, SpaceX and NASA will partner the Mars missions.

He also seems to think there will be protests from the National Team, LockMart, Orbital/Grumman, and howls from BO.


Let's Go to Mars...Google on: Fast Track to Mars blogspot.com

Offline

#23 2021-04-19 18:09:20

SpaceNut
Administrator
From: New Hampshire
Registered: 2004-07-22
Posts: 23,393

Re: SpaceX Moon lander

Remember its Nasa's dime so ya they are going to dictate a bit as to what they want since they are supplying the knowledge and engineering to make the flying can happen for the moon since they have not pulled off even a single once of fuel transfer. They could move the dragons minimal life support to starship but its not enough for the real deal so its got to be up'd in size. This also means water, scrubbers and more....

Offline

#24 2021-04-26 19:09:28

SpaceNut
Administrator
From: New Hampshire
Registered: 2004-07-22
Posts: 23,393

Re: SpaceX Moon lander

Seems there is something to contest Blue Origin is challenging SpaceX's Artemis lander contract from NASA

The difference is apples and oranges as they are design to different criteria....as this is what they wanted initially
BB1g537J.img?h=532&w=799&m=6&q=60&o=f&l=f&x=3667&y=1813

Offline

#25 2021-04-30 19:55:23

SpaceNut
Administrator
From: New Hampshire
Registered: 2004-07-22
Posts: 23,393

Re: SpaceX Moon lander

We all know that the contest contract was to get the award based on paper designs so to go ahead without changing what was the desired out come to working live test articles goes against what is the norm.

SpaceX told to suspend work on NASA's moon-lander project until a challenge by Jeff Bezos' rival space company is resolved as filed space x selection was met with skepticism from the Blue Origin team, who filed a 50-page protest with the GAO

SpaceX's moon-lander project for NASA has been put on hold after rival bidders Dynetics and Jeff Bezos' Blue Origin filed challenges with the Government Accountability Office.

Dynetics' complaint, which was co-signed by Blue Origin, the company argues that NASA should have withdrawn its request for bids for the lunar project once it became clear it didn't have enough funding to proceed with two companies, as it had originally planned. 

NASA chose "the most anti-competitive and high risk option available. In its filing, Blue Origin said NASA set a project target cost of $6 billion - more than double SpaceX's $2.9 billion proposal. The agency reportedly received about a quarter of the total $3.3 billion budget allocation it requested for 2021.

Of course the blame game lack of Congressional funding meant it had to go with a single competitor.

Offline

Board footer

Powered by FluxBB