Interlinked energy systems, plus other things that can be associated.

Void · 2021-01-15 19:18:16

Interlinked energy systems, plus other things that can be associated.
OK, lets see if you can call me off topic on that title.
Scope: (I will modify the scope as I desire later, if it is allowed)
I have been recently introduced to the notion of "Modern" geothermal.
It sounds as if it can involve fracking. You can look it up I may add such references.
For now I am not going to drill down on specific items.
In my opinion Solar can be associated with this as well. Many different ways.
Nuclear, choose your flavor, and see also what the future might bring.
Other: There are other energy devices. Maybe some will be brought in later.

Void · 2021-01-15 19:19:22

OK, just some thinking. The upper midwest of the USA is somewhat a hard case for energy, renewable energy as well. Some wind, limited solar. The latitude might be similar to where some bases or cities on Mars might end up. Solar is generally a bad deal in the winter for these areas, day length and weather being unfavorable.
However, long periods of time in other seasons would be favorable to solar concentrator methods, and a fracked well, would be a good place to store heat. For that notion you should not have to drill so deep. But don't get me wrong, if the new version of geothermal works out, then geothermal may be almost anywhere, and might last for thousands of years.
But we already have reason to suspect that for Mars geothermal will be more meager, and elsewise we don't actually know. However the icy but not polar areas of Mars should have long stretches of solar energy. The seasons of course being almost twice as long, with potential modification from dust storms.
There is suspicion of a global aquifer some 750 meters down. I don't know what the answers might be for using that, if life is discovered. But we don't even know if humans can live well over the generations in the low gravity of Mars, so lets not obces about life and what we may or may not do with aquifers.
While I do not exclude photo voltaic energy, I am very interested in solar concentrators. There might be an agrument that it could be easier to mass produce solar concentrator robots, then to make solar panels.
So, with significant drilling we can repair the situation where Mars has unreliable energy. Some will argue the it should all be nuclear. OK, do that if you can and if you want to. Dr. Robert Zubrin does not seem to think that entities of the Earth will be eager to provide such. Later on, perhaps it can be developed on Mars, or some form of fusion will actually become possible.
But the question can be asked, why are our energy needs satisfied from many sources here on Earth? Well then wouldn't it be normal to have multiple sources on Mars. I will also argue that during times of high solar flux, why would you ignor the potential?
Of course economics and reliability will be very important.
A possible future modifier could be wind and water on Mars. Wind would be peculiar. I don't really think that windmills are the thing for Mars. How about surfaces with hairs on them, that bend when the wind gusts, and possibly flex when dust grains impact them. Certain members are fond of 3D printing. I think that such might be possible. Don't bother to argue on this point, as it is not my favorite pet notion. Very far down on my list. I just like to try to be complete.
Hydro-Electric on Mars? Well, once you melt water, at a high elevation, it can to some degree keep itself warm by movement down hill. And an ice covering may help insulate it and also reduce evaporation. My favorite is to have a water flow from the southern ice cap all the way down to the bottom of Hellas. The Boring Company may be involved.
But back to Solar-Aquifer-Geothermal. Well, to some degree, it does not make sense to combine them in many cases. But I leave it open. For instance if you have a small installation, where the base temperature might be say 25 degC, you might bump that up during solar episodes to much higher, and then for Mars, if you had a dust storm, you could in an orderly fashion reduce the amount of space that you keep heated.
Of course for the Earth, seasonal solar storage underground might be worth a look, especially for heating buildings in winter.
I think that this is a good start. I am sure I have much more to add. I have felt that it is a responsibility to suggest it, which is why I have bothered to post at all.
Done.

Void · 2021-01-15 20:50:38

Reference Articles:

Mentions Fracking as one method:
https://www.vox.com/energy-and-environm … ercritical

Heating Buildings:
https://www.vox.com/energy-and-environm … ct-heating

Mars of course is going to be different, much discovery needed. However, the crust is likely lighter and the gravitation less, so, drilling deeper may be favored by those factors.

Done for now.

Last edited by Void (2021-01-15 20:52:48)

Void · 2021-01-16 08:28:03

An item that could be associated with "Interlinked Energy Systems":

------
This was by Louis, in his post #1
Index» Life support systems» Food from electricity, air and water...

This looks interesting:
https://solarfoods.fi/#vision
A Finnish company claim to be able to make proteins using only electricity, air and water.
This could be an interesting technology for Mars, especially in the early stages when per capita expenditure is not a huge issue.
The cost I read elsewhere is reckoned to be about $5 per kg. If true, that is well within a Mars Mission budget.
Could be a useful emergency food supply if a crew get stranded on Mars after a launch failure...
Definitely worth keeping in mind.

The topic by Louis ended up mutilated by off topic materials, as (th) noted.
------

I was going to put references to concentrating mirror solar power. For the moment I will just add this:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Concentrated_solar_power

Video:
https://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=So … &FORM=VIRE

Done

Last edited by Void (2021-01-16 08:37:32)

SpaceNut · 2021-01-16 10:34:44

Not to intrude as I agree that we need to make use of all things plausible and practical for Mars to be able for and with sustaining life when we do decide to go. It will take all technologies high or low in degree with regards to computer components to just gears or motors to make it possible in the long run.

Right now its getting what we need to the surface that has not been solved for the tonnage needed in a single landing rather than what is currently a tiny landing foot print of payload in the 2 mT size. Then there is the little issue of the size of a ship that we can land can not return until its reconfigured with way more thrust to reach orbit.

Void · 2021-01-16 12:37:56

------
i don't consider your post to be a problem. Thanks for showing up.
There can be attention to the saying "Go Big, or Go Home".
For complex entities, there is needed a "Boot Up" process to get from raw materials to a functional useful complex and mature animated entity.
So, if we know what we want, we must also provide all the boot-up processes needed to achieve it.
We don't wish we had something like a computer. Just saying words to try to describe it is not enough.
So, my imagined boot-up process involves something like the Starship. I anticipate that the machine would be used to lift valuable resources to LEO, and so have earned it's keep that way. Then we can anticipate the life span of such a device. Probabilities of it's continued success. Insurance will likely factor into the calculations. At some point a Starship will have become a higher risk due to wear and the level of maintenance required to bring it to a trust level.
At some point it then makes more sense to make a new one rather than to invest in an old one. And then so, "Junk Yard Mars". That is you might use the Starship one final time on a mission to Mars. No intention of ever bringing it back to orbit. Just part it out, scavanging everything that can be of use. It might carry cargo on that last mission, or not.
We are trying to use an A>B masculine to establish an upward spiral feminine on Mars. Nurturing is everything.
Just a segway. When we say female or Male, we are not addressing the masculine or the feminine in the exclusion of the parts from each other. A Female has aspects of the Feminine and aspects of the Masculine. A male has aspects of the Masculine and aspects of the Feminine. There is no shame in that. It is real, and necessary. It is completely natural.
The clowns that have tried to exploit human sexuality to turn it into power and money for themselves, are to be dispised, as they have turned our culture into a brothel. They have also produced enormous levels of psychotic behaviors in the population in order to leach power and money from us, or as also a result of the imbalances they produce in that process.
But back to the boot-up. As a good parent, our asperations are to create a very capable offspring. Or, we might as well not bother. They won't thank us for failing to do our duty, as they would suffer from our lack of worth.
Dr. Robert Zubrin has identified what we should be doing about Mars at this time. Mostly we are to send "Stuff" to Mars. Make no mistake, this is with the intention of bringing a child into reality. The likely best need is to bring a female child to Mars. And when it matures, it can have congress with the people of Earth, (Perhaps among others). So, the need to cycle things back to Earth from Mars is greatly reduced. Later a fully grown result might do so, as the deep void is very lonely. Survival usually is agumented by associations with others.
Well, I got really weird, didn't I?
More later, if there is a later.
Done.

Void · 2021-01-18 14:35:41

I have one further thing to mention about fracked solar energy storage underground.

I suspect that it might be possible to induce Serpentinization (That appears to be the correct spelling. Bad Spell checker )in some types of volcanic rock not previously over-exposed to hot water.

This could produce Hydrogen, and if Carbon is present maybe Methane.

However, I don't know for sure, and don't care to bother to look into it further.

Done.

http://jersey.uoregon.edu/~mstrick/AskGeoMan/geoQuerry45.html#:~:text=Serpentinization%20is%20a%20processes%20whereby%20rock(usually%20ultramafic)%20is,equivalent).%20Here's%20where%20it%20gets%20a%20bit%20fuzzy:

https://astrobiology.nasa.gov/news/serp … ding-site/

Well, you know the word, look it up yourselves, if you care to.

That's all folks.

Last edited by Void (2021-01-18 14:39:29)

Calliban · 2021-01-18 17:49:03

Combined heat and power is one example of an interlinked energy system. It offers obvious energy efficiency and CO2 reduction benefits here on Earth. There is no free lunch of course. A CHP plant typically distributes heat to occupancies using steam or hot water at 90-100C. The problem is that running the condenser water up to those temperatures greatly reduces the work output from the LP turbine, because the delta-P is lower, because the steam is condensing at a higher temperature. Another problem is a little less obvious. CHP plants tend to be smaller sets located in urban areas. Smaller power plants have higher capital and operating costs, due to negative scale economies. Also, hot water distribution only works in compact urban living arrangements. So we don't tend to see much CHP outside of nordic countries.

Another possible interlinked energy system is a geothermal assisted powerplant. The idea is to use geothermal heat to preheat feed water entering a boiler, thereby reducing the amount of fuel needed to generate power. In principle, there are a number of ways that interlinking could work. But the essence of the idea is that two distinct energy sources are used to raise the temperature of the coolant. The first provides preheat, at relatively low temperature and the second provides superheat. Here is an interesting undergrad paper on hybrid powerplants. Definitely something that we could use on Mars.
https://pangea.stanford.edu/ERE/pdf/IGA … Varney.pdf

tahanson43206 · 2021-01-18 18:33:17

For Calliban re #8 in Void's Interlinked Energy systems topic ...

SearchTerm:hybrid powerplants http://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.php … 89#p175989
SearchTerm:GeoThermal hybrid powerplant

(th)

New Mars Forums

Announcement

#1 2021-01-15 19:18:16

Interlinked energy systems, plus other things that can be associated.

#2 2021-01-15 19:19:22

Re: Interlinked energy systems, plus other things that can be associated.

#3 2021-01-15 20:50:38

Re: Interlinked energy systems, plus other things that can be associated.

#4 2021-01-16 08:28:03

Re: Interlinked energy systems, plus other things that can be associated.

#5 2021-01-16 10:34:44

Re: Interlinked energy systems, plus other things that can be associated.

#6 2021-01-16 12:37:56

Re: Interlinked energy systems, plus other things that can be associated.

#7 2021-01-18 14:35:41

Re: Interlinked energy systems, plus other things that can be associated.

#8 2021-01-18 17:49:03

Re: Interlinked energy systems, plus other things that can be associated.

#9 2021-01-18 18:33:17

Re: Interlinked energy systems, plus other things that can be associated.

Board footer