Space Solar Economy Involving the Moon.

SpaceNut · 2017-01-22 10:13:38

Increase cloud cover does have another negative...
Geoengineering Effort Could Pose Big Problem For Astronomers

Void · 2017-01-22 11:12:59

That is notable, but if in the case of what I have suggested the human race and telepresence are on the Moon, that problem can be compensated for.

Void · 2017-01-22 11:27:48

OK, back to the Moon.

So, on the basis of this topic by Karov, I have decided that the Moon is not as it is "Human Land".

Karov, Land: (Land for Humans)
http://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.php?id=7574

But it is "Machine Land". It potentially offers protection and substance for a machine based animation.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lunar_soil

It is therefore potentially more suitable for machines than an empty vacuum in microgravity. I will make a comparison of both.

Moon Surface vs. Empty Microgravity

I would like to also make comparison to both the Earth's surface(Land), and the surface of an object like Ceres, a dwarf Planet.

So, "Machine Land" would be any surface which will allow the use of the wheel as the primary magnitude of motion of machines.

This would include gravitational land only. The Moon qualifies.

The Moon also will supply "Nutrition" to machines. (Dirt, Rock).

The Moon also has energy sources, most likely the sun being the only real one solar photon energy, or maybe even solar wind energy.

The Moon could donate mass to orbital locations which might be useful. I will post about that next.

Last edited by Void (2017-01-22 11:58:42)

Void · 2017-01-22 12:03:33

The Moon could donate mass to microgravity locations. I can currently think of 3 methods.

1) Rocket thruster method is available but would likely only be economical for specific valuable materials.

2) Mass Driver. I kind of think that this is very oversold as a method to get materials from the Moons surface to a microgravity location.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mass_driver

3) Manufactured hybrid propulsion with solar thermal energy method. (In-situ building of a rocket ship to launch from the Moon to microgravity).

So, I will link to the notion of a "Liberty Ship" to suggest the intended scale of production.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liberty_ship

And there is this:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lunar_soil

There are two profound differences in the chemistry of lunar regolith and soil from terrestrial materials. The first is that the Moon is very dry. As a result, those minerals with water as part of their structure such as clay, mica, and amphiboles are totally absent from the Moon. The second difference is that lunar regolith and crust are chemically reduced, rather than being significantly oxidized like the Earth's crust. In the case of the regolith, this is due in part to the constant bombardment of the lunar surface with protons (i.e. hydrogen (H) nuclei) from the solar wind. One consequence is that iron on the Moon is found in the metallic 0 and +2 oxidation state, whereas on Earth iron is found primarily in the +2 and +3

Hydrogen might be taken from the lunar soil or the polar deposits.

As mentioned in the quote above, the lunar soil is fairly reduced, and that is good, if your intention is to build a rocket from it. But Oxygen is wanted as well.

I will try to shorten this up.
1) Separate the dust from the stones, use the dust.
1b) (Optional), separate more magnetic from less magnetic dust.
2) Heat Hydrogen very hot (Most likely with solar energy.
3) A process machine which meters a dust flow downward in a containment, and a hot hydrogen flow upward, removing more Oxygen, and producing water, and a more reduced dust. (For #1, and if done for both types of dust for #1b).
4) A hybrid rocket shell, and an Oxygen tank. Not easy. Of course I have not even provided the method yet, but will try later.
* In the age of 3D printers, I am not unsure about printing rocket parts. The question is the quality of the materials to print from.
5) As for the lower quality reduced Moon dust, I am thinking of a "Sintering" process to layer it inside of the rocket shell, as a fuel.

So, the above will leave the Lunar surface I believe, either in a launch or an explosion.
However, I want to add more energy to the device. This would be done by heating the entire fuel section as hot as it is physically able to endure. The exact method is not specified yet.

So, have at it, but lets stick to the Moon OK. No masking maneuvers please.

Last edited by Void (2017-01-22 12:42:50)

Terraformer · 2017-01-22 12:47:53

Interesting. Iron is very abundant in the Terran crust (apparently 4.6%), so if it's also fairly abundant in the Lunar crust, we may be able to acquire large amounts just by sifting through regolith with a magnet. If we get 1% by weight in an area, and sift 10 cm deep, then we'd be getting 1-1.5 kg per square metre. Say 10 tonnes per hectare, or 1000 tonnes per square kilometre.

If we're doing that in an area with 0.1% water content, and bake the regolith before depositing it back out, we'd get 1 tonne of water from each hectare. If we increase the depth we mine by a factor of five... that's a lot of iron.

As far as water exporting goes, the mass ratio from the surface to LEO is just over 2 with HydroLox. Better for EML1, of course. If a Lunar beanstalk is put in place, then it's a lot better. Alternatively, you could use a more efficient solar thermal rocket once in Lunar orbit. Ideally water would come from asteroids and comets, but at the start it makes sense to get it from Luna.

Void · 2017-01-22 13:09:33

That is an interesting interpretation, but in reality, I want to recycle the Hydrogen, although inevitably some will end up in the rocket fuel.

I really want to launch metal and ceramic shells off of the Moon. Then they could be connected together as modules perhaps, and then in my version, they would be propelled to a location with water, and would be filled as needed, and perhaps radiation shielding added.

An alternative, is to recycle the shells and the remnants of fuel unburned into habitats more liked. It is only an alternate method.

My favored method of propulsion to a "Wet" location would be by solar propulsion, sailing. Either photon or solar wind.

However gravity assists might be employed.

It is a very rough idea. Much easier to say than to do. But it is an alternative method.

Alright, that's nice enough I think.

Last edited by Void (2017-02-01 22:30:08)

Void · 2017-02-01 22:07:16

Oh, well, maybe I could try to be less abrasive.

Here is some stuff for fun, scary or fascinating robots.

Handle (Because eventually it is supposed to be modified to handle things)
https://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=bo … ORM=VRDGAR

They say the wheels make it more efficient than a full leg robot. Maybe not as much mobility? But it is certainly interesting. I am guessing it could or will be able to outrun me. Oops!

This one is really fascinating:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SvEs_hhb0sI
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BfPM_oaMFRc
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Evx621ODdVE
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tf7IEVTDjng

Of course I am wondering about remote operation of these machines by humans and super computers on the Earth, super computers near the Moon, and of course a small amount of humans and computers on the Moon itself.

And that practice would then benefit the Mars effort if perfected, obviously.

What about a super computer in Mars orbit directing these things, and humans from Earth directing that computer?
Eventually a small number of humans to do robot repairs, after in-situ life support has become developed enough.
Spare parts and new robots arriving by efficient ballistic capture to Mars, and of course a harder landing than you would do for humans.

Last edited by Void (2017-02-02 18:07:48)

Void · 2017-02-02 18:11:21

Apparently great pretenders think along similar lines

Intercepted some talk about fission reactors in other topics. I was thinking on it myself because of an article I read.

That has a title such as "10 Energy policies of Trump". Don't go there, it has a virus. My computer puked it out twice.
It doesn't matter. The original content I wanted was altered. But I have found the secondary link I wanted, so here it is.

https://www.wired.com/2016/10/molten-sa … -day-mars/
Quote:

Salt of the Earth
Shu’s nuclear power device is called a “two-fluid molten salt reactor.” The full details are in the patent, but the basic idea is this: The first batch of molten salt is full of a thorium compound, which eventually decays into uranium as neutrons bombard the mixture. That uranium goes into the second batch of molten salt and circulates into the reactor’s graphite-filled core.
There, it encounters slowed-down neutrons, which kick off a fission chain reaction—that’s the energy-producing part. The first batch of salt then absorbs the heat from the reactions, cooling the system. (In typical nuclear reactors, water does the cooling.)

So, what I am interested in is a rehearsal on the Moon by robots which may evolve from the robot examples linked in post #57.

I am hoping that both the Moon and Mars may have weathered "Sand/dust/soil/regolith" which might contain sufficient Thorium content to make it worth refining.

So lets imagine "Handler" gets hands to handle things, like a shovel.
https://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=bo … ORM=VRDGAR

Then by collection to a refinery of automation, to produce a useful concentration of Thorium.
That being a small bundle, could it be containerized, and launched (Rocket or Mass Driver), to be "Landed" at a location of use?

On the Moon, perhaps a favored polar location, or a lava tube.

On Mars, perhaps a mid latitude ice body.

As I have mentioned before, the robots of post #57 seem to be developing autonomy such as in one case being able to pick up a can. That is an early beginning, but perhaps shoveling dirt from around rocks could be such a programmable repetitive task (Requiring local modification for each scoop).

Then, humans would give general directions from Earth, and a "Local" computer would break them down into subtasks, and give the sub instructions to each autonomous robot.

I am thinking that the intermediate computer could be in orbit, but maybe landed.

The point being that perhaps Thorium concentrate could have been transferred to an ice body on Mars, before humans even go there.

I am not saying that all this has to be, but it is something to consider. We are supposed to be headed for an age when we will be afraid robots will take away lots of jobs. Can't we ask them to dig and concentrate, and move Thorium for us before they launch "Skynet"?

Last edited by Void (2017-02-02 18:25:36)

tahanson43206 · 2020-09-08 09:31:12

This is for Void ....

I asked FluxBB if there were any topics that included the words "moon" and "economy" in the title.

To my surprise, there was ** one **, which you had created before I joined the forum. The last posting before today was in 2017.

I'd like to invite you (and anyone else interested) to see what might be done with this topic to move it further along.

The impetus is the discovery of ** rust ** in the spectra of the surface of the Moon near the poles.

What seems surprising is that Oxygen is somehow finding its way to the Moon, in sufficient quantity to provide enough rust to show up on satellite scans.

So my proposal is that this topic consider how to develop an economy for the Moon NOT based upon imports from Earth, but instead based upon the abundant natural flows of energy, and such resources as are known to be present.

As I post this, I have not read the topic from the beginning, but am planning to so so. It will not surprise me to find interesting and potentially useful content.

(th)

Last edited by tahanson43206 (2020-09-08 09:33:21)

SpaceNut · 2020-09-08 18:45:41

Earth does have atmospheric escape and the moons own surface is full of combinations that have oxygen with in them. So pick your choice for where its getting the oxygen for the iron to rust....

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#51 2017-01-22 10:13:38

Re: Space Solar Economy Involving the Moon.

#52 2017-01-22 11:12:59

Re: Space Solar Economy Involving the Moon.

#53 2017-01-22 11:27:48

Re: Space Solar Economy Involving the Moon.

#54 2017-01-22 12:03:33

Re: Space Solar Economy Involving the Moon.

#55 2017-01-22 12:47:53

Re: Space Solar Economy Involving the Moon.

#56 2017-01-22 13:09:33

Re: Space Solar Economy Involving the Moon.

#57 2017-02-01 22:07:16

Re: Space Solar Economy Involving the Moon.

#58 2017-02-02 18:11:21

Re: Space Solar Economy Involving the Moon.

#59 2020-09-08 09:31:12

Re: Space Solar Economy Involving the Moon.

#60 2020-09-08 18:45:41

Re: Space Solar Economy Involving the Moon.

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