Trump’s Lawyers Argue He Can't Be Impeached Because He Was Not Elected

kbd512 · 2020-03-31 09:44:39

SpaceNut,

If one of the boats you've worked on sinks due to an electrical problem, should you get charged with murder? If not, then let's stop the BS. In fact, I'll answer for you to save the time you'd waste on inane contrarian arguments. No, you shouldn't get charged with murder. Making a mistake, even if that mistake costs someone else their life, is not equivalent to deliberately doing something to kill someone.

Influenza has killed far more Americans than COVID-19 has killed, but there's no total freak-out over the flu. Should we shut the country down each year to avoid those deaths (since influenza kills far more Americans each year than COVID-19 has managed to thus far, yet for some reason I've yet to read a cogent explanation from you or anyone else as to why we don't shut the country down over influenza, and it's not like influenza just started killing Americans a month ago)?

50% of the nation is NOT going to die from COVID-19, so stop with the outrageous hyperbole and formulate a valid argument. Nobody I know of wants to see their family die, but people can starve to death just as surely as they can die of a virus and that kind of death is every bit as ugly and destructive to society. Think a virus has anything on starvation? Starvation accounts for around 25,000 deaths per day, so every 2 days starvation kills more people than COVID-19 has managed to kill over several months now. After you haven't eaten in a couple of weeks, I want to find out how important you think a virus that kills 1% to 2% of its victims really is in the grand scheme of things.

There's no end to the "if it saves just one life, it's worth it" line of argumentation. By your line of reasoning, which is wildly inconsistent, we should just shut down the country every year over the loss of life associated with influenza. If it's $2 trillion, it's worth it. My counter argument is, "Well, why not $20 trillion in lost productivity or just fill in the blank with whatever amount of lost time and productivity you feel is worth it?"

I already know you can't formulate an answer to the question of the amount of your own money, not someone else's money, past which you have to admit that the impact to yourself isn't worth the amount of resources (money) that you'd have to expend. I'm guessing you'd be willing to spend any amount of someone else's money, though. Funny how that works.

SpaceNut · 2020-03-31 14:39:49

Some one else was thinking about this as Why the new effort to blame coronavirus fumbles on the impeachment trial falls so far short

BB11YJfd.img?h=164&w=300&m=6&q=60&o=f&l=f

Well we actually did have one charged for falsifying paper for signed work that was perform and it was not. That person did not kill anyone but they are no longer in service to do the work anymore. Have not heard what its going to cost that person for punishment but its in commands hands to decide what should be done. For me I will not allow improper or non working aspects of the vehicle to malfunction as I know what it costs is by and far higher than a single persons life as it could be an entire vehicles complement. Qualitiy of workmanship goes in first not how much time I can save.

The flu or influenza I think we should change at this point to stop saying that its just the flu and actually test to confirm what strain and provide a means to save life instead of just say it will pass and so will you if you get to sick along the way from it. Shutting down the nation is not what we would want but in extreeme cases such as we are in and the testing and making vacines is by and far not as costly.

We now have these terms for employment as furloghed which keeps benefits for medical insurance going with business loans are possible for the company to continue in that means under a short period for the virus, laidoff which gets you unemployment with the possibility for returning to work if called back and fired which means you can go for the unemployment but there is no returning to the business as its shuttering its doors.

People should not starve to death no matter what the nation as the nation has the responsibility for them ultimately. Communities can help, so can states and yes even the government can help to get those which would starve the help that we need for them. Hell the various groups which give aid to foriegn countries should be looking to give help here first. Some will be saved from there devices while others can not but if we do not try to correct the reasons for why they arrive at that state we will keep more than a killer disease going.

SpaceNut · 2020-04-04 16:12:26

The U.S. was beset by denial and dysfunction as the coronavirus raged

Donald Trump proclaimed himself a wartime president but the enemy was the coronavirus but its been 2 months that we have been under seige before changing direction.

It took 70 days from that initial notification for Trump to treat the coronavirus not as a distant threat or harmless flu strain well under control, but as a lethal force that had outflanked America’s defenses and was poised to kill tens of thousands of citizens. That more-than-two-month stretch now stands as critical time that was squandered.
The country has adopted an array of wartime measures never employed collectively in U.S. history — banning incoming travelers from two continents, bringing commerce to a near-halt, enlisting industry to make emergency medical gear, and confining 230 million Americans to their homes in a desperate bid to survive an attack by an unseen adversary.
More than 7,000 people have died of the coronavirus in the United States so far, with about 240,000 cases reported. But Trump has acknowledged that new models suggest that the eventual national death toll could be between 100,000 and 240,000.

We have resorted to setting up field hospitals to care for the surge of those in dire need of medical in the hot states at this time and we still do not have enough PPE, ventilators for the support of a temporary staff to care for the very sick.
We are still no better with testing, tracking let alone prevention of its spread even after days of stay at home for some possibly 2 weeks but most only started on march 31st. for the 30 day clock.

Terraformer · 2020-04-05 09:29:31

I see the media is still trying to gaslight everyone. Fortunately we've saved the headlines about how coronavirus is nothing to worry about.

GW Johnson · 2020-04-05 10:57:42

The proper course of action during the pandemic is to pull together and get through this with the centuries-old quarantine tool. That's what we're doing. It'll be less effective here in the US than it could have been, because of the delay getting started.

The problem with that is the one playing out on the news right now. Infection rates are high enough that hospitals are overwhelmed and supplies are running short. That will drive deaths up. The denials that we need to do something about being prepared add to the delay in getting started, making this worse than it could have been.

After this is over, that is the time to hold the delayers and deniers accountable. First priority is getting through this. They are lower down the priority list.

I gave you the tool to evaluate who deserves to hold office and who does not: do they value lives over money, or the other way round? When you evaluate, look at what they do, not what they say, because ALL politicians are lying if their lips are moving.

Another possible tool to apply is the Dunning-Kruger effect, to judge competence.

GW

Last edited by GW Johnson (2020-04-05 10:59:49)

kbd512 · 2020-04-07 09:31:47

GW,

President Trump's response to COVID-19 could have been better. Former President Obama's response to H1N1 could have been better. I'd wager that every President's response to a crisis could have been better. Your own response to the human failings of those men could have been better. But it wasn't.

I found it interesting that you brought up the Dunning-Kruger effect. The number of people I've watched or listened to who thought they'd "rise to the occasion" in the fight of their life is... remarkable. My own personal experience would indicate that you default to the lowest level of training that you've actually mastered. I've never seen or heard of anything approaching an adequate training program for presiding over a country of several hundred million people. In point of fact, there is no training program at all for that task. There doesn't seem to be a basis for a point of comparison since we don't have a time machine, either, merely our beliefs about how some particular leader's response would've differed from the next. I've never met anyone who was born with the correct combination of personality traits that made them qualitatively superior all other leaders in all situations, either.

While you enjoy the luxury of jeering at someone you despise from the cheap seats, I wonder just how quickly your own leadership capabilities would be severely tested if such a task was set before you; and also how many people who are not beholden to such an awesome responsibility would just as quickly turn on you and cast aspersions on every little thing you said or did, all while the lot of you hold blind faith in the belief that you're "doing the right thing".

So, I have to ask the question...

Does the Dunning-Kruger effect also apply to people with PhD's in engineering who may over-estimate what they know about statistics or epidemiology or psychological evaluation of suitability to task of leadership positions at a national level, or are they exempted from having the same judgements pertaining to their competency brought to bear against them when opining on issues outside of their demonstrated field of expertise?

What are the limits of expertise? For that matter, what are the limits of morality? Who gets to decide what passes muster as expert opinion or judgement?

If you feel so strongly that President Trump has failed America so badly, then why have you not "bellied up to the bar", as you're so fond of saying, and applied for his job?

To read what you write, one could be forgiven for thinking that you know far better what courses of action our country should take than both the candidates you've voted for and the candidates you haven't voted for.

What level of scrutiny of every little thing you say and do would you imagine yourself capable of handling?

Do you think you could withstand four years of unrelenting derision, ridicule, threats against you, your family, and even the people who voted for you?

I've watched both sides say and do every nasty thing imaginable over these past four years, all over an inability to step back and relinquish control over something that doesn't belong to either side of the argument.

SpaceNut · 2020-04-07 09:58:33

Trump has a habit of listening to only Trump and no one else. If when you disagree or tell the truth that you are fired and terminated... So when some one gives Trump what he wants to hear we have what has happened to the US now... Trade Adviser Warned White House in January of Risks of a Pandemic

kbd512 · 2020-04-07 11:14:10

SpaceNut,

President Trump's trade advisor recommended instituting a travel ban to China as a course of action, which is precisely what President Trump actually did. By what process did your brain associate the article you linked to in Post #157 with your assertion that President Trump doesn't listen to anyone else?

SpaceNut · 2020-04-07 11:25:55

posted in politics:
Trump said our borders were close back in Januarary but thats not true as 430,000 People Have Traveled From China to U.S. Since Coronavirus Surfaced including nearly 40,000 in the two months after President Trump imposed restrictions on such travel, according to an analysis of data collected in both countries.

kbd512 · 2020-04-07 12:00:56

SpaceNut,

Yes, it wasn't an outright ban on travel because every time he does that one of the yahoos from the other side immediately initiates a lawsuit alleging racism and xenophobia and then he has to go to court for months or even years to get anything done. History only started yesterday for our lefties.

SpaceNut · 2020-04-07 12:08:00

They did not close off the other worlds nations either yet saying the name of one seems to be closing the border.

kbd512 · 2020-04-07 12:56:56

SpaceNut,

If we close off the borders completely that also means travel for people like doctors and people shipping medical supplies is also prevented. I hope that's not what you really mean, but I'm sure you'll respond with some sort opposing viewpoint for sake of being argumentative.

SpaceNut · 2020-05-21 16:21:22

While the courts might be blocking the completion of investigation into impeachable offenses the train continues on.

Flouting Norms, Trump Seeks to Bring Independent Watchdogs to Heel

FBI Director Wray orders internal review of Flynn investigation

SpaceNut · 2020-06-17 19:26:03

We should not be surprised at Trump asked China’s Xi to help him win reelection, according to Bolton book

kbd512 · 2020-06-20 20:05:35

SpaceNut,

I'm sure the Chinese are thrilled at the prospect of helping to reelect President Trump. Given their options between a functional economic partner and total anarchy that our regressive leftists seem to want, he may still be their best bet.

SpaceNut · 2020-06-21 11:04:48

BB16mXc4.img?h=479&w=799&m=6&q=60&o=f&l=f&x=2535&y=931

The Bolton book is going to be published and with it the number of offenses can offer up more reasons to impeach.

http://www.msn.com/en-us/news/politics/ … &ocid=iehp

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/202 … man-nadler

SpaceNut · 2020-08-17 17:39:50

Donald Trump Is Committing A Crime Against Democracy

Last week, President Donald Trump admitted that he is attempting to disrupt the November election by preventing the U.S. Postal Service from processing election ballots. This flagrant crime against democracy should be grounds for his swift impeachment and removal from office

SpaceNut · 2021-01-13 21:41:41

The House has put forth the impeachment articles with some support for the Republicans and have forwarded it to the senate where it will most likely wait until after Trump has left and Biden has been sworn into office.
Its not over even if they do wait it out as to not receive the wrath of Trump...

edit
Is history on a course to repeating
open letter to editors

To the editor: In July 1917, Vladimir Lenin and the Bolsheviks' first coup sought to overthrow the new Russian government. It failed. In October 1917, Lenin and the Bolsheviks' second coup succeeded.
In 1923, Adolf Hitler's first coup attempt sought to overthrow the German government. It failed. In 1933, Hitler successfully took over the government.

are we on the way to another?

SpaceNut · 2021-01-15 21:03:10

I guess for some the why is this important to follow through with... Trump loses several perks only with impeachment conviction by Jan. 20 and more as the Trump trial pending, McConnell calls it 'vote of conscience' as McConnell gives GOP senators permission to find Donald Trump guilty but its not stopping there as the charges for those that did support the insurrection and denial of the election system may go down the tubes as well Joe Manchin Says Congress Should Give ‘Consideration’ to Ousting Cruz, Hawley Over Capitol Insurrection which After Riot, Pelosi Details Security Review and Warns of 'Prosecution' for Possible 'Accomplices' in Congress

I believe the articles of impeachment are on there way to the senate where its any ones guess for the outcome now that the capitol has seen violence inside that caused all to seek shelter...

An obscure provision of the 14th Amendment to the Constitution has emerged as a possible means of preventing former President Donald Trump from holding future federal office as Congress grapples with how best to punish him for his role in the January 6 assault on the U.S. Capitol.

Ratified in 1868 after the Civil War, Section 3 of the 14th Amendment states that "no person shall be a senator or representative in Congress" or "hold any office, civil or military" if they, after having taken an oath to support the Constitution, "engaged in insurrection or rebellion against the same, or given aid or comfort to the enemies thereof."
The measure allows for Congress to "remove such disability" with a two-thirds vote of the House and Senate.
The disqualification provision, scholars say, was meant to keep former Confederate officers and officials from holding public office again unless they received permission from Congress to do so. It has seldom been invoked over the last 150 years, and never against a president.

SpaceNut · 2021-01-27 21:06:30

Impeachment try number 2 is in the Senates hands and much like before the GOP are standing tall to defend...

Trump was impeached by the House on Jan. 13 on one article of incitement in connection with the deadly riot that saw his supporters storm the Capitol Building on Jan. 6. Ten House Republicans voted yes.

Sen. Rand Paul, R-Ky., made a motion that the impeachment trial against Trump is unconstitutional in the Senate, arguing that Trump couldn’t be tried as a private citizen.

The motion was rejected by a 55-45 vote, which suggests a lack of support for convicting Trump on the charge of inciting insurrection. Essentially, 45 Senators voted that the trial was unconstitutional, signaling they're likely to vote against conviction.

The trial of Trump’s second impeachment, a first for a president, will begin as scheduled the week of Feb. 8.

Republican Sens. Mitt Romney of Utah, Susan Collins of Maine, Lisa Murkowski of Alaska, Ben Sasse of Nebraska and Pat Toomey of Pennsylvania joined Senate Democrats in killing Paul's motion.

Trump has been hiring Lawyers just as fast as they leave him for the senate trial which is slated to begin soon.

SpaceNut · 2021-02-09 19:01:37

Second time has started as

visceral, violent, scary, and, as more footage of the horrific events of last month were shown, it was scathing.
“If that is not an impeachable offense, then there is no such thing,”

4 takeaways from Day One of Trump’s second impeachment trial

first-day-of-impeachment-stuns-baffles-and-shocks-but-gop-is-unmoved

louis · 2021-02-09 20:17:29

Lol - while stealing a Presidential election through massive electoral fraud is OK.

The people have the right to occupy the buildings they own when the individuals in power who should be upholding their constitution (eg most infamously, the Supreme Court) allow an illegitimate assumption of power by someone who did not win the election.

The USA is no longer a democracy. It is a joke. If you, as an American, haven't yet been affected by this tyrannical takeover, you will be eventually. This is just the beginning.

SpaceNut wrote:

Second time has started as https://img-s-msn-com.akamaized.net/tenant/amp/entityid/BB1dxT5O.img?h=450&w=799&m=6&q=60&o=f&l=f
visceral, violent, scary, and, as more footage of the horrific events of last month were shown, it was scathing.
“If that is not an impeachable offense, then there is no such thing,”

4 takeaways from Day One of Trump’s second impeachment trial
first-day-of-impeachment-stuns-baffles-and-shocks-but-gop-is-unmoved

SpaceNut · 2021-02-09 20:39:54

The election was not stolen and was ratified by each states commissioners. False claims do not make it real when said 3 times with a click of the heals....
5 takeaways from Day 2 of Trump’s impeachment trial

The video's of the day are telling the story and reason to indict....
mps lawyers are playing the free speech card but its his inaction that is making the case against him.
Lawyers for former President Donald Trump’s defense rested their case Friday after less than three hours of arguments in which they called the impeachment case built by Democratic House managers an act of "political vengeance" and alleged that Trump's speech preceding the Capitol riot was merely "ordinary political rhetoric."

Of course there is still the chance of another route taken for No. 2 GOP senator suggests he's open to censuring Trump, Sen. Tim Kaine (D-Va.) has drafted a censure resolution that would also include language from the 14th Amendment that he hopes could be used to bar Trump from future office.

SpaceNut · 2021-02-13 17:06:58

Today was another whirlwind day of denial.

Trump impeachment defense lied in Senate about Trump's response to 1/6 attack on Capitol

Trump defense team make brief arguments against impeachment case

Senate votes to allow witnesses in Trump’s trial
Came back as no

Lead House impeachment manager Rep. Jamie Raskin, D-Md., on Saturday called to subpoena Rep. Jaime Herrera Beutler, R-Wash., in the impeachment trial, after Herrera Beutler tweeted out a statement Friday reiterating comments she made about a talk she had with House Minority Leader Kevin McCarthy regarding former President Donald Trump's involvement in the Capitol siege.
Did not get to testfy
Trump and Kevin McCarthy Had a Screaming Match When President Refused to Call Off Capitol Rioters, refusing to tell the rioters to stand down
Was a reason to vote for impeachment

McConnell tells GOP colleagues he will vote to acquit Trump

His reason is he is not the sitting president any longer.

caught the vote to impeach count role call that ended 57 to impeach with 43 to acquit.

kbd512 · 2021-02-13 20:51:00

SpaceNut,

It's over and it's time to move on.

New Mars Forums

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