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#26 2019-11-04 16:52:53

SpaceNut
Administrator
From: New Hampshire
Registered: 2004-07-22
Posts: 25,960

Re: Covergent evolution Mars-Earth

Here is simple life and how it might be able to be quite the problem for man.
NASA grant to study space station fungus

The center has been awarded a $750,000 grant by NASA to increase our understanding of the organisms and investigate ways to stop them.

mold-grows-international-space-station-exercise-clothes-hung-dry-hg.jpg

Every long-term mission has seen a growth of microbes where you don't want to see on the shuttle, Mir, and ISS.

The microbes are a type of fungus or bacteria called a biofilm. They represent a threat in space because they eat through the surfaces they grow on, a process called biodegredation. Biofilm formation also increases the risk of human illness. "It shows up behind control panels and has gotten into heat exchangers and pipe systems. On Mir, they once noticed a pretty bad stench. Looking for its source, they pulled off a panel and found a lot of mold. That was the smell, but it was also consuming plastic cabling in that area,".

That is a risk we do not need on mars...

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#27 2019-11-24 17:55:05

louis
Member
From: UK
Registered: 2008-03-24
Posts: 7,208

Re: Covergent evolution Mars-Earth

An interesting video which argues that convergent evolution will be relevant across the universe.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x5qWuVOJCug


Let's Go to Mars...Google on: Fast Track to Mars blogspot.com

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#28 2019-11-29 22:33:48

SpaceNut
Administrator
From: New Hampshire
Registered: 2004-07-22
Posts: 25,960

Re: Covergent evolution Mars-Earth

When was the transition from single celled to multi as that is the path to complex life as we know it...sort of the chicken or the egg which came first

Animal embryos evolved before animals

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#29 2019-12-05 04:45:40

qraal
Member
From: Brisbane, Australia
Registered: 2008-01-02
Posts: 65

Re: Covergent evolution Mars-Earth

SpaceNut wrote:

When was the transition from single celled to multi as that is the path to complex life as we know it...sort of the chicken or the egg which came first

Animal embryos evolved before animals

If they're embryos. That's still being argued by the experts.

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#30 2019-12-05 08:27:08

RobertDyck
Moderator
From: Winnipeg, Canada
Registered: 2002-08-20
Posts: 7,282
Website

Re: Covergent evolution Mars-Earth

SpaceNut wrote:

When was the transition from single celled to multi as that is the path to complex life as we know it...sort of the chicken or the egg which came first

Stromatolite. A colony of single cell organisms. Held together, growing together. Predecessor to undersea plants?
220px-Pavilion_Lake_microbialite_towers.jpg

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#31 2022-03-30 07:52:36

tahanson43206
Moderator
Registered: 2018-04-27
Posts: 10,793

Re: Covergent evolution Mars-Earth

Rather than start a new topic, I decided to drop this item into one of the two created by Louis that contain the word "evolution"

It is fitting as well, because we have so many residents of the UK in the active forum.

https://www.newscientist.com/article/23 … tion-in-an

The teaser for this article reads:

An artist’s impression of a Bronze age settlement

Lennart Larsen/Nationalmuseet

Natural selection was at work on Bronze Age Britons, ancient DNA reveals. Within the past 4500 years, evolution has acted on genes involved in the production of vitamin D – which people living in Britain are sometimes short of due to a lack of sunlight for much of the year.

The genetic changes have had knock-on effects on other traits, from the ability of people to
digest milk to their skin colour.

One of the ways evolutionary change can happen is through natural selection: …

Read more: https://www.newscientist.com/article/23 … z7P1gSzNOM

While the rest of the article is currently hidden from view, I expect it will/does shed light on the matter of natural selection as it will inevitably operate on Mars.

(th)

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#32 2022-03-30 13:26:28

louis
Member
From: UK
Registered: 2008-03-24
Posts: 7,208

Re: Covergent evolution Mars-Earth

I do think about convergent evolution a lot.

It seems to me that for any particular task there are certain potential solutions that life forms might come up with.  For dextrous handling of objects, hands with fingers and opposable thumb are very good.  But an octopus with eight tentacles can probably be just as dextrous. But I don't think we have any examples of tentacled creatures moving out of the sea and on to land. Is that just chance or is there something more at work there? It might be that on land, where gravity really weighs you down the energy budget for tentacles is not so great. It may be that a couple of arms that hand down at your side as you perambulate are evolution's most effecient solution to the dexterity solution.  If so we might see the solution being ubiquitous across not just our solar system but across the cosmos on non-watery surfaces.

For offence and defence, we see similar solutions in different branches of life - horns, antlers, teeth, clawss, spines, spikes, hard armour and so on.There is a limited range of options essentially - you might had things like electric shock, stings, squirting noxious substances or venoms and so on. But I think what we see on Earth probably pretty much exhausts the available possibilities that would apply on any planet. On other planet as on Earth, predators and prey will come into an states of equilibrium when offence only very slightly overcomes defence on average.

Again when you think of reproduction there are a limited range of possibilities. The initiating act of reproduction will have to have some sort of pleasure reward, to stop animals focussing entirely on food. Foetal development will have to be protected somehow - something like eggs or a womb or an exterior pouches are obvious possibilities.


Let's Go to Mars...Google on: Fast Track to Mars blogspot.com

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#33 2022-03-31 12:10:59

Void
Member
Registered: 2011-12-29
Posts: 4,672

Re: Covergent evolution Mars-Earth

(th) per your post #31.  A very dangerous topic, and so less can be more.  However, it is good to understand if you can, while taking care not to feed pseudo science, and care not to upset people who may have problems actually understanding what words actually are intended to signify.  It is not good to stimulate an unnecessary social turmoil.

Things you might ponder are:

-If blue eyes are recessive, then why are there about 1/2 billion people on the planet with blue eyes now?  Blue eyes entered Europe before light skin did.  Light skin came from the Middle East, but not blue eyes.

-Farming's role in the matter.  It used to be that at least in this country, light skin indicated higher class, as you did not have to work in the fields.  Farms from before would have been an excellent place to store people with behavior problems.  But also a cooler climate will indicate that a farmer who even does field work with hand tools, may wear more clothing, and so absorb less U.V., Red Light, and perhaps also less Infrared light.  Of course now where most people spend most of their time strongly clothed and inside of buildings we are now in a hyper deficient environment on average.  For a while we were developing a nudist culture, but now for various reasons, the general population here is involved in extremely phobic thinking on the matter.  I could give a theory about why, but enough on it.  I think somewhere in and about the true Middle East, there are pale skinned people who have not yet darkened, because they wear lots of shading clothing that helps keep them cool, and also suits their religious preferences.  I would imagine that to do field work, the females may not disrobe, but perhaps males can to a degree, but I don't know what the benefit of it would be.  In some ways the garments keep people cool.  For instance sweat then grants evaporative cooling.

-While Vitamin 'D' is likely a true issue in the UK, there are people who drink Milk mixed with animal blood in places in Africa, so they can digest milk, I believe.  A query you may chase about is, "Is Melanin Toxic".  So far, I have seen that its precursors can be.  But I would not be surprised if information will be censored soon that may suggest that.

About Cave creatures.  Do they loose pigment because it is an unneeded expense, or can be pigments also be a burden chemically.  Granted, the pigments, are the choice to make, if you are a naked Aboriginal in the tropics.  But if you can regulate your sun input with cloths, and shelter, and sunscreen, then pigment might be selected against to a degree.

----

I do a small amount of UV tanning, which most doctors do not approve of.  However, a study of Elder Swedish women, showed that those getting sunlight did get more cancer, but in general lived longer than those who did not.

I also do Red Light therapy, which also includes Infrared light as well.  Our indoor environments lack these and this supposedly causes health problems for at least most 1st world people.

Here you go.  These will likely be wanted on Mars.  I believe the ISS pioneered this tech: https://joovv.com/

Done

Last edited by Void (2022-03-31 12:30:14)


Done.

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#34 2022-03-31 12:30:52

Void
Member
Registered: 2011-12-29
Posts: 4,672

Re: Covergent evolution Mars-Earth

Louis, Per your last post #32:

Consider Birds, which reportedly are Dinasaur's in disguise smile

Dinosaurs do not like to go to the vet to get their nails trimmed: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KRnApz3nMts

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xNrCKaG0MMg

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xNrCKaG0MMg

There are other Cockatoos, Barney, Gotcha, and others.  Vinny.

Gotcha: https://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=Go … 314C283BD7

https://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=Go … EA5E05D079

I am not sure the story telling is not a hoax.  It is funny even so:  Barney: https://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=Ba … 6BF4E72A11

Buster: https://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=bu … A8D7A2831A

The animals are extremely high maintenance as far as I can see.  They use one foot predominantly as a hand, sort of.
Birds have superior breathing methods. 

There is a whole lot more to discuss about it but imagine a creature with six limbs.  Two wings, two hands, and two feet.  It did not happen here, but suppose another world with lower gravity and thicker atmosphere, an unknown level of Oxygen.  So, an interesting path.

I think that for efficiency the bird brain has a higher baud rate than that of humans.  To them we may seem to be "Slo-Mo".  I sort of think that may be true.

I am interested in brain implants for parrots.  And computers and robots that could communicate/interact with them at the baud rate that they are comfortable with. 

Then we might learn more about potential alien types.

I have sort of been watching Indian Ringnecks, they are likely less capable but they are interesting. 

https://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=Ch … &FORM=VIRE

Done.

Last edited by Void (2022-03-31 12:58:22)


Done.

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#35 2022-03-31 13:51:44

louis
Member
From: UK
Registered: 2008-03-24
Posts: 7,208

Re: Covergent evolution Mars-Earth

Of course wings are a good example of convergent evolution having been developed by both dinosaurs/birds and bats.

Birds can react to quite complex commands and solve difficult problems for sure.  I love watching corvids interact with their environment and each other.  There was a dog that could fetch up to 200 separate soft toy from another room on 200 separate names/commands.  That was pretty impressive. Most humans could not do that.

But nearly all animals seem to need a food reward to develop these behaviours.

Whether "talking" - use of sound waves - is a general feature of intelligent land creatures across the cosmos is an interesting question.  Something like a squid's complex colour changes could be far more expressive than serial words.  Imagine an intelligent creature that comunicate simultaneous information about past present and future, about their emotional state and about intellecual ideas. A genius squid mathematician could make equations appear and disppear on their chest in an instant! Maybe smell and taste could be used for complex communication.  The problem of course is that smells get carried on the wind, this way and that, so might not be so effective.  Whale songs sound like they could carry a lot of information, more than human sentences.

Void wrote:

Louis, Per your last post #32:

Consider Birds, which reportedly are Dinasaur's in disguise smile

Dinosaurs do not like to go to the vet to get their nails trimmed: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KRnApz3nMts

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xNrCKaG0MMg

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xNrCKaG0MMg

There are other Cockatoos, Barney, Gotcha, and others.  Vinny.

Gotcha: https://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=Go … 314C283BD7

https://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=Go … EA5E05D079

I am not sure the story telling is not a hoax.  It is funny even so:  Barney: https://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=Ba … 6BF4E72A11

Buster: https://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=bu … A8D7A2831A

The animals are extremely high maintenance as far as I can see.  They use one foot predominantly as a hand, sort of.
Birds have superior breathing methods. 

There is a whole lot more to discuss about it but imagine a creature with six limbs.  Two wings, two hands, and two feet.  It did not happen here, but suppose another world with lower gravity and thicker atmosphere, an unknown level of Oxygen.  So, an interesting path.

I think that for efficiency the bird brain has a higher baud rate than that of humans.  To them we may seem to be "Slo-Mo".  I sort of think that may be true.

I am interested in brain implants for parrots.  And computers and robots that could communicate/interact with them at the baud rate that they are comfortable with. 

Then we might learn more about potential alien types.

I have sort of been watching Indian Ringnecks, they are likely less capable but they are interesting. 

https://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=Ch … &FORM=VIRE

Done.


Let's Go to Mars...Google on: Fast Track to Mars blogspot.com

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#36 2022-03-31 20:23:11

Void
Member
Registered: 2011-12-29
Posts: 4,672

Re: Covergent evolution Mars-Earth

Well, we are permitted to diverge in what we think is important in these matters.  I think that the case for some Parots needing treats for training is related to the creatures really not being interested in doing what humans want without a bribe.  I think that the creatures do in fact have some greater capabilities than might be thought.

I will make the point that like us they have two legs, and are warm blooded, so in that sense there is some common ground.  But they lay eggs to reproduce, have feathers, and wings.  The nature of this planet has contributed to limiting their brain size, and of course a pregnant bird would also be very vulnerable to predators, so they still lay eggs.

But on another planet, this "Dead End" might not have played out.  Even Mars, in it's first 500 million years might have had a thicker atmosphere than we think and might have had Oxygen, and if so, due to a .38 g gravity field, it is possible that avian life might have developed larger brains, and perhaps a live bearing capability.

Even beyond that, my point was that there might be a extrasolar planet where Avian's might have become the top intelligence of the planet.

Where we have eventually mastered Lions, Tigers, and Bears, the Avian's might have gained mastery over their birds of prey.  Truely for Mars, I think the likelihood is small, but you did mention Mars.  But some lower gravity worlds around other stars???

And if such creatures became space travelers, perhaps they would have spin gravity worlds that they could fly inside of.

Humans may someday have wings in such similar worlds.  Cyborg humans of course.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2022-03-31 20:30:40)


Done.

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