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It's a lot easier to find someone who can teach everything at Primary school level than at Secondary level. A one room schoolhouse should work great up to the age of 12, and it wouldn't be expensive compared to what's spent on such education today.
Use what is abundant and build to last
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Hi Terraformer ... Are you willing (and do you have time) to do a bit of research on behalf of this concept?
Good ideas have to start somewhere, and if the return to one room schools is appropriate for this time in human history, it might as well start in the NewMars forum, where members routinely take a long view, and where the needs of populations away from Earth are considered frequently.
It's a lot easier to find someone who can teach everything at Primary school level than at Secondary level. A one room schoolhouse should work great up to the age of 12, and it wouldn't be expensive compared to what's spent on such education today.
I think your proposition is testable.
A way for everyone who reads this topic to assist is to interview working teachers, to see if they agree.
A concern that someone like Louis, who appears to have financial experience, would have is that the salary of a person who would take on this responsibility needs to be sufficient to attract and retain them, despite the frustrations that will inevitably occur while working with human beings.
In addition, the infrastructure for use of the Internet to facilitate rich educational experiences for each child must be in place, and the costs for THAT are enormous when considered as an investment for a population. Fortunately, the market for the needed services appears to be strong enough to support a non-income-producing activity such as education.
***
Last night I had a reminder of how valuable it is to have an experienced teacher. I had (pretty much) self-educated on Blender, and was stalled out trying to design a 3D Printer instruction procedure for Josh's pneumatic tower. An attendee at last night's meeting of the local 3D printer group turned out to have been doing animation with Blender for 20 years, for income producing projects. He was kind enough to show me aspects of Blender I had not seen or even imagined, and he created the desired shape in a few minutes time while explaining what he was doing along the way.
This goes to the point made recently (and not for the first time) by GW Johnson, of the importance of having a live human being to work directly with a student to have the maximum possible impact. I am having difficulty imagining how that encounter would have worked over the Internet.
That said, my perception is that if the human race intends to get out of the jam into which it has brought itself, it had better learn how to solve that problem.
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The person you want for the "education specialist" available with canned presentations of math/science subjects is someone with significant industry experience. Not just doing it, but also experience having taught others on-the-job. That is almost impossible to tell from the usual credentials, unfortunately.
In my case I had 20 years doing cutting-edge defense weapons work that included teaching young ones on the job (in an explosives plant), followed by 20 years in civilian work that was mostly teaching. There have to be a lot of people out there, filling that bill, although identifying them from a CV or a resume is almost impossible.
GW
Last edited by GW Johnson (2019-05-09 16:52:01)
GW Johnson
McGregor, Texas
"There is nothing as expensive as a dead crew, especially one dead from a bad management decision"
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For GW Johnson
The person you want for the "education specialist" available with canned presentations of math/science subjects is someone with significant industry experience. Not just doing it, but also experience having taught others on-the-job. That is almost impossible to tell from the usual credentials, unfortunately.
In my case I had 20 years doing cutting-edge defense weapons work that included teaching young ones on the job (in an explosives plant), followed by 20 years in civilian work that was mostly teaching. There have to be a lot of people out there, filling that bill, although identifying them from a CV or a resume is almost impossible.
GW
Thanks for this insight .... The onset of automation is displacing (certainly thousands and possibly millions) of experienced people.
I don't see a way to enlist this cadre into an updated education project, but perhaps someone who is already a member of the forum can. Or, potentially, someone who has not yet joined the forum will do so, and help to show a way forward.
Potentially, education of the next generation could be a psychologically rewarding occupation for persons who retain 99% of their on-the-job skills, and want to be able to continue to make contributions to society, even if their specific job related skills have been made obsolete.
A few Sols ago, I noted void describing the use of a specific (now obsolete) programming language to solve a problem with the spam artists who join this community until SpaceNut snags them. That was a perfectly good language, which gave me several years of income, before I transitioned to (at the time) more state-of-the-art languages. There must be millions of people like void and me, who have mastered languages and techniques which are no longer in use, but the generic skill sets are as valid as they ever were.
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The person will also have a keen sense in the efforts to teach the material in an ability to recognize when the subject matter is not being recieved by those in class. They will also have the ability to change how it is present such that it is successful in getting the information accross to all. Of course this goes back to understanding whether its a visual cognitive issue or reading in ability to decode the written word.
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For SpaceNut ...
The person will also have a keen sense in the efforts to teach the material in an ability to recognize when the subject matter is not being recieved by those in class. They will also have the ability to change how it is present such that it is successful in getting the information accross to all. Of course this goes back to understanding whether its a visual cognitive issue or reading in ability to decode the written word.
The vision of a return to an 8 person population of a modern one-room-school is coming together, as I interpret your observations above. The clarification I would offer is that the specialist would be working with INDIVIDUALS. Your observation implies that there would be multiple people all the same age, but in the one room school I attended, there were only two people in first grade, and the teacher was able to plan progress for each individual as needed, while at the same time organizing activities for all the ages.
An example which is vivid in my mind was a field trip to nearby hills, where I saw a blue snake. That is the only time I have ever seen that particular snake, except in the zoo.
Exercise activities (as I recall) involved spontaneous invention at recess. A popular game was "alley oop", which involved tossing a ball over a shed roof to waiting classmates on the other side. There must have been many other such activities, but that is the only one I remember.
Your observations about adapting presentation technique would be (should be) realized in drawing down media from the Internet, or pulling in help from specialists in particular subject matter for one-on-one interaction with a particular student in a particular moment.
We humans seem to now have a large population of help desk folks. I note that there are several (apparently large) such businesses in the local community, and from interactions with help desk folks I know they are scattered all over the world.
The education scenario I am thinking about here would require a "help desk" population of thousands (to serve millions), and the workers at those desks would be interacting with students over entire continents through the course of a working day.
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There was an experiment where the class grades of 1,2 and 3,4 students where kept together for consectutive years for the same teacher. Though I do not know how well that worked out. In some ways if the student like the teacher and teach in like kind it would seem to benefit the student but if there is a conflict its going to be harmful as it will create delay for the student.
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When I was in the second grade, my class was a mix of second and third graders, about half and half. There were about 35 of us in that room. The one teacher taught both grades simultaneously. She had no assistants.
At that grade level, the teaching objectives are similar, but not the same, so some, but not all, lessons could serve both grades. How my teacher kept up with two sets of lessons, assignments, and examinations like that is a mystery to me.
SHE was an extraordinary teacher, if you want a definition of what an extraordinary teacher is.
With somebody like that, your canned presentations delivery idea becomes far more effective. That is because it is the knowledgeable and talented live person right there with the students receiving the canned lesson, that makes the difference.
I know how this works, because that is the role I filled doing those video dual credit high school math courses.
GW
Last edited by GW Johnson (2019-05-11 08:50:49)
GW Johnson
McGregor, Texas
"There is nothing as expensive as a dead crew, especially one dead from a bad management decision"
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For GW Johnson re #83 ...
Thanks for your recollection of second grade, and of your extraordinary teacher. That was a nice follow up to SpaceNut's recollection of experiments with combining grades.
A few messages back, Terraformer offered a comparison of the skill set required for an elementary teacher and those for secondary or post secondary education.
Your post is a reminder that the talents and skills needed for a successful elementary teacher are rare in human society, and certainly not valued as highly as those of other disciplines.
A concern that has been building in my thinking, as I try to explore the concept of a modern one-room-school situation as a way of addressing future and current education needs, is that there may in fact NOT be human beings whose talents and interests match the requirements of a guide to education for children in the age range of (about) 5 through 12 (or so) ... available in sufficient numbers to support transition to such an environment.
For one thing, the trials and tribulations of the Catholic Church over recent decades (and for all I know long before) are a reminder that trust placed in adults with exposure to children has occasionally been misplaced.
In short, the process of selecting individuals for this kind of position is sure to be challenging in the future, as (I am guessing) it must be now.
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For all ...
This forum has global exposure, as evidenced by the constant flow of new "members" who report connection with countries around the world.
The fact that almost none of these new members actually contribute to the forum is NOT evidence they are not reading posts.
Thus, while the topic at hand addresses education in the United States, I think that the questions raised and answers proposed should be of interest to citizens of other Nations. They should ** certainly ** be of interest to those who are alive today, and who will be venturing away from Earth in coming years.
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EducationDoneRight
There are skill sets and then there are skill sets. There is little about grade/primary school curricula that almost anyone cannot teach, because they had to master it just to grow up. It is the people skills that are far more critical.
And for primary education, in particular a good teacher needs an understanding of how to deal with children continuously (operative word: continuously; not even parents have to do that). Not everybody can do that. It's a very unique skill set that is more personality type than anything you can actually learn to do.
It's the same in junior high/middle school, except that you are dealing with adolescents (by definition children trying to be adults but failing at it). That's a different (although related) dealing-with-people skill set to the primary teacher's dealing-with-people skill set. Some of the curriculum topics are more advanced, and not everybody in the adult population has mastered them, unfortunately (I see that every single day on the opinion page and the evening news).
High school/secondary school students are different still: they are still mostly adolescent, butt the failure rate trying to be adult is lower. The curriculum topics at least should have almost reached college-level rigor, which means the teacher simply must have mastered the topic he teaches very well. You don't want that getting in the way of providing proper instruction.
Now college students are more widely variable in their maturity than one might guess. The conventional wisdom says you are a fully-functional adult at age 18, but I'm here to tell you that "adult functionality" level can be quite low for a lot more of them than most folks would guess. Others really are quite adult, especially once you start looking at graduate students.
Thus you have to be able to deal with great disparities in maturity, especially in undergraduate classes. It is here the topics must be taught to full rigor and simultaneously at far higher rates than the students have seen before. And they really require a lot of mastery on the part of the teachers.
What you don't want is to repeat the same mistakes we make so often today. In the public schools, we over-emphasize the standardized testing, and even worse we tied funding to the standardized test scores. Anyone who knows anything at all about teaching any kind of a class knows that one test is a poor measure of learning. When the money gets tied to it, there is enormous pressure to teach only to the standardized test, which is the dominant mode of coping, even though it is largely technically illegal. They still pressure teachers to do it.
Because the standardized test is a low-ball measure (meaning content and rigor is less than what is traditional for the topic being tested), you guarantee failure by teaching to the test. If the mark is low to begin with, half the students will hit below it. If instead you set the mark higher, then even the half that hit below it, may well still hit higher than your min standard.
And THAT is the fundamental conceptual fallacy behind standardized testing! There is fundamentally no way around that, as long as the standard is a min standard. And I have NEVER seen anything else proposed or tried. So get rid of it.
The way out of this dilemma is to address grade inflation a different way: you outlaw grading on the curve. All the teacher's tests, especially the final exam, get graded to an absolute basis. 70% right passes, less than 70 fails. If you do that, then any teacher's multiple tests through the course will provide a level of measure that you can trust, as long as all the topics get covered.
What that means is you don't waste resources on buying standardized tests or supporting the parasite bureaucracies that sell them. You don't waste precious class days out of the course taking or preparing for those useless standardized tests. And because the politicians are out of it (because there are no low-ball measure standardized scores to tie funding to), the teacher gets to teach his class up to traditional rigor, instead of just the minimum.
Kids taught in an environment more like what I suggest actually do far better. They tend to ace the standardized tests without practicing for them, simply because they truly know the subject much better. I have ACTUALLY done this! I KNOW it works!
The other thing to get rid of is unfunded government mandates. These are just pirating the school staff to collect data "for free" for bureaucratic reports that may or may not be useful in government, but are mostly utterly useless to the schools.
The principle to apply here is that if government wants data collected, then government pays fully for that collection. Otherwise, government is obligated to fund the schools regardless, usually by the various state constitutions. And the state politicians must be held accountable for that. Too many are not.
And the feds do not need to be involved at all, except for providing advisory (ADVISORY, not compulsory !!!) standards for the content and rigor of the courses, for the states to choose from to implement, or to exceed.
GW
Last edited by GW Johnson (2019-05-13 11:21:50)
GW Johnson
McGregor, Texas
"There is nothing as expensive as a dead crew, especially one dead from a bad management decision"
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For GW Johnson re #86 ...
There is so much to think about in this post that I'll let it soak for a while.
Meantime, there is something you can do to help me (and hopefully others) to find that post again, from all the others you have created.
kdb512 and I have discussed this as well, and I am hoping he will consider adding a search string to help find particularly comprehensive posts on particular subjects.
The ideal search term would encapsulate the post in a word or two. Then that tag (whatiever you choose it to be) can be entered into the FluxBB search window, and the author name in the corresponding field, and ONLY that post will show up.
One thing I would like to add is the observation that states appear to be struggling with the responsibility of achieving the goal of educating their citizens.
The state where I live is most certainly struggling ... I live in the capital city, and hear about the struggle through every media I visit.
My guess (and I admit it is only a guess) is that if we (as a state) did a better job preparing our young people to enjoy productive lives, we would be better off, as the better educated citizens contribute directly to the flow of goods and services, and indirectly as they enjoy the benefits of income and thus provide employment for others.
My impression (from reading about the difficulty armed forces are having) is that on a national scale, we are failing as well. Accepting that education of the citizens is a state responsibility, the failure of many states to perform adequately becomes a national issue when citizens are unable to perform at the level of their potential.
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tahanson43206,
Ultimately, we'll have to determine how to genetically improve IQ (the best predictor for the ability to learn) with gene therapy and neural pathway repair or enhancement. Around 16% of the population is at or below the level at which they basically can't be taught for any reasonable amount of time and resource input. That doesn't mean we should look down upon any of our fellow Americans, no matter their ability to learn. People are not disposable. It takes far too much time and effort to make new ones. I can only speak for myself when I say that I'm rather attached to the people I know, no matter what their IQ happens to be, and will accept no substitutes. Thus, we need medical science to deliver another minor miracle. That's a bitter pill to swallow, but also the truth of the matter. The other 84% of our population can indeed be imbued with better outcomes through better educational practices. I think it would be enormously beneficial if medical science could figure out how to give everyone an IQ score of at least 100, preferably 130 or so (roughly speaking, the level at which understanding of very complicated systems becomes possible). Nearly every aspect of modern technological societies has become a very complicated system with a complicated set of interdependencies. My hope is that this will inhibit the ability of unscrupulous people proposing very simple solutions to complex problems to seduce others into supporting or otherwise accepting self-destructive solutions to their complex problems.
Like GW, I don't think it's just a matter of money. More money can certainly provide improved educational materials, such as iPads in the classroom or guest professors who bring experience from their industry. However, learning is predicated on having a suitable learning environment and suitable home life. That starts with proper nutrition and caring parents who spend time with their children. The utility of more money rapidly diminishes past the point required to keep a roof over your head. My wife and I make a fair amount of money, but only at the expense of the amount of time we can spend with our children. If I could "redo" the past, I think I'd opt for less money and more time with our kids. I can't, so I keep doing what I'm doing. I also enjoy doing what I do at work and see little point in stopping. My wife wouldn't be happy staying at home, either. She's a much better network security engineer than house wife, at least according to the people she works with.
These are the very simple keys to successful outcomes for future generations:
1. Graduate from high school. If you can afford to do so, then attend a college or secondary vocational school. A better understanding of your desired field of study through secondary education to apply to any future jobs is how most of us "get ahead" in life, to include myself, my wife, and all of my family members. Yes, education really is that important. Simple memorization of facts and figures is nearly meaningless to what I do, though. Instead of having a great knowledge base of trivia with exceptionally narrow applicability, the ability to quickly identify the source of problems, adequately test realistic solutions, and then repeat that process as fast as possible is what has lasting value.
2. Don't use illegal drugs or abuse medications. Maybe a handful of artists manage to produce artwork that they couldn't otherwise produce because they had some idea when they were high on drugs while their brain activity was going haywire, but once you make the decision to have children all of this sort of activity must come to an abrupt halt for the rest of your natural life. In any event, creativity is primarily a product of the human mind rather than mind altering substances.
3. Don't have kids outside of a marriage and stay married to the person you have kids with, if at all feasible. Statistically, even children that had one abusive parent have much better outcomes than children with a single parent. This indisputable fact remains true whether or not your parents are in a traditional man / woman marriage or are lesbian / gay. Properly raising a child takes two people, no matter your personal sexual preferences. This is just how it works, it's always worked that way, and no, you are not, statistically speaking, likely to be an exception. If you are an exception, then great, but you're part of an incredibly small minority. So, whatever else you do in life, if you care at all for your children then make sure you remain committed to a single partner and that you and your partner are also committed to raising your children. Furthermore, if you or your partner have any mental disorders then that also stacks the deck against your children.
Your children can still overcome life's obstacles without decent home life conditions, but it's difficult to do. Apart from proper nutrition and medical care, any additional amount of money you have to start with is nearly meaningless to how well your children will do in life. If the average American can manage to do those three things listed above, then they will be successful in later life, almost without qualification. Kids that come from a two parent home nearly always do better in life than kids that come from a single parent home. That's what the math says. People can and will argue about that incessantly, but the math won't change to suit their arguments.
My grandparent's rarely had two nickels to rub together, but every single one of their children graduated from college on their own dime and as a result of their own scholarship, a couple of their kids received advanced degrees like PhD's or MD's. I think my mother's parents loaned a little bit of money to 2 or 3 of their 8 children to use and my father's parents loaned the use of the family car so my father and his brother, who still teaches statistics at UT, and was the dean of the mathematics dept. at one point, could go to college. Strangely, all of my grandparents also had at least a bachelor's degree. IIRC, my mother's father also had a MBA and my father's mother had a MBA. It may be hard for kids today to believe, but that was somewhat unusual for a woman back in the 1940's. They were all frugal with money out of necessity, being children of the Great Depression. It should go without saying that there was a continual emphasis placed upon education in my family and that that emphasis continues within my own family. To the extent that I can, I try to get my own kids to learn things on their own, outside of what they're taught at school. That was how my grandparents raised their children, how my own parents raised us, and I think it worked reasonably well. All of us have salaried jobs that provide enough money to live reasonably well off of and to raise our kids with.
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Tahanson43206:
Search word? I'm no good with computers, but something like "education done right" comes to mind. 3 words not 2, but that's what I was trying to address.
I'm really more of an engineer than a teacher, having done that longer than teaching. But I learned a lot about real teaching training those younger ones while doing the engineering work.
GW
GW Johnson
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GW,
He's talking about tagging your posts (just put the tag somewhere in one or all of your relevant posts) so that they return to the top of the list of search results when you use the search engine to search for a specific term or phrase. It makes finding info to refer back to a lot easier.
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For GW Johnson re #89 .... I'll create a search tag using the words you suggested. They work for me, and hopefully will work for others.
For kbd512 re #88 ... thanks for contributing your advice and memories to this discussion. Your post will appear in the sequence with GW Johnson's.
Hopefully there will be others besides me who will want to re-read this part of the topic, and perhaps other parts as well.
SearchTerm:EducationDoneRight
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tahanson43206 post 85 response.
To read one only needs to go to the topics as the forum is not shielded from others to read or view.
We only require a registration to be able to post a comment.
The further education beyond high school must also start in the high school rather than after since the carreer for the long term goal of being able to retire from it must come from knowledge to determine what you want to be much earlier rather than years later after taking a ton of liberal arts course along the way to basket weaving....
High schools around the nation have done away with there industrial, craft, home economics, shop classes and many more have been dropped from high schools that are related to trades. Most college went the way of those are for dummies and stopped giving such classes opting for the engineering levels that business in manufacturing did not need.
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For SpaceNut #92 (in reply to #85) ...
Thank you for these two contributions!
I agree that if a person knows early what subject matter will become the focus of their life, then they can search out education to match and achieve much more than would be possible without that focus. My impression is that for many humans it takes a long time to find out which of so many fields will be most satisfying.
All that the community can do for such persons (it seems to me) is to try to provide as solid a generic foundation as possible, and then to provide as many opportunities for exploration as possible.
Your point about the demise of shop classes caused me to realize that there may be a link between the shipment of jobs overseas, and the reduction of trade education opportunities in the United States. It is my impression that there are millions of people in other countries who have received education in the trades to a very high level, to support all the manufacturing that the United States no longer does.
If my impression is correct, then it would appear that the US education establishment has simply followed the desires of the capitalists, who deliberately took decisions to move the trades out of the country. I note that there appear to be flickers of interest in restoring the trades in the United States.
We are in the Not So Free Chat topic, so I'll toss in a thought that comes to mind as I combine the above with the current "non" trade talks ... China may be in a position to simply pull the plug on shipments to the US. Thanks to US capitalism, which invested over decades to build up the trades in China, China may be in position to supply the rest of the world, and to let the US go adrift.
Should that happen, the US would be motivated to rebuild the trades infrastructure so casually cast aside in recent decades. That might not be such a bad thing, were it to happen.
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For the search keyword, if I understand correctly, all I need do is go back and edit the appropriate posts to add the term "EducationDoneRight" to them. So I just did that.
As for elimination of vocational education, I didn't cover this before, but both vocational and arts programs have suffered greatly under the impact of over-emphasized standardized testing. The rationale for this is as simple (and as evil) as "if it ain't on the test, we won't teach it".
This is bottom-line thinking spawned by tying funding to standardized test scores, without a single shred of evidence to support such policies, only political slogans (which we all know are nearly invariably lies). At the same time, there is plenty of evidence to support that music programs strengthens math performance, for only one example.
GW
GW Johnson
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"There is nothing as expensive as a dead crew, especially one dead from a bad management decision"
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For GW Johnson re #94 ...
The new search tags work perfectly! The entire collection appears when your id is added to the author field.
The default mode is for search results to appear in descending order from most recent to oldest.
If someone (out there in forum land) would like to read the series from the top, change the search results direction to ascending.
Also (for someone trying this for the first time) ... be sure to select "posts" rather than the default of "topics".
When I did this, the post of 2019-05-05 showed up at the top of the list.
It was fun (for me at least) to re-read that << grin >>
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Education is a constant struggle in the US. I presume it is the same everywhere on Earth, although the focus of this post is a large urban school district.
The most recently hired Superintendent announced a plan to return to a concept tried once before, perhaps with updates and adjustments to improve it.
The plan (as I understand it) is to create "areas" within the large district, which would include all grades. A single person would be responsible for providing consistent leadership for the 12 years of education for the children who are fortunate enough to be able to stay in one location.
https://www.dispatch.com/opinion/201905 … principals
Dixon’s new approach seemingly echoes Etheridge’s long-ago “community of schools” idea. In place of the executive directors whose portfolios of schools were grouped by grade level, she will create six geographic regions and put a newly created “area superintendent” in charge of each.
The idea is for schools in feeder patterns to have consistent leadership from kindergarten through graduation. “When you think about our feeder patterns, and as our students are matriculating to high school, there is some continuity with leadership as they matriculate up,” Dixon told Board of Education members who approved her plan last Tuesday night.
This particular school district has been performing poorly for decades.
Columbus City Schools started as a one-room-school:
https://www.ccsoh.us/cms/lib/OH01913306 … 0Years.pdf
1806 The first school in what is now Columbus was a log cabin built in Franklinton by Lucas Sullivant.
In looking over the history of the district, from 1806 to the present, I see some signs of national leadership, and constant struggles to adapt to growth of the community and to national and global pressures.
Something similar is likely to happen on Mars, as the population grows.
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The education of the course materials I have found can be taught in just about any setting and even to a grade level but its the how to use what you are learning that is the issue as to what do you do with it....
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My news feed came up with the essay at the link below ....
https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/ar … ne/590650/
The essay is well written. It may even be very well written, although I hesitate to make the claim to be able to tell.
What it does do, is to speak to me very directly, as I attempt to contribute to the human story in whatever small ways are available.
The concluding section points out the benefits of shifting focus to offering education to others, and this topic seems a good fit for that concept.
The NewMars forum seems to attract people who are trying to make a dishonest buck, if the spam of recent months is any indication.
The regular forum contributors, on the other hand, appear (to me) to be generally focused upon helping others to make good decisions.
Is it possible to attract people who want to make good decisions in developing their careers?
If we humans manage to avoid doing ourselves in, we should be expanding out away from Earth in the decades ahead. There ** should ** be ample opportunity for individual and collective achievement.
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One way to promote education is to create:
Firefly Aerospace Provides a DREAM Payload Opportunity
Firefly is making a philanthropic commitment to STEM, by committing a portion of the payload capacity on Alpha's maiden flight to support and stimulate STEM on a global basis. Firefly also aims to enable other newspace enterprises and increase economic activity in low earth orbit.
The Dedicated Research and Education Accelerator Mission (DREAM) payload also provides newspace entrepreneurs a unique opportunity to gain access to space and gain flight heritage for concepts. DREAM payloads will be co-manifested with a commercial payload.
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