Mapping a way forward

Scott Beach · 2017-03-22 11:22:16

JohnX wrote:

Out of interest, how did you choose 'Regent' for the board members?

The University of California is defined in the California Constitution as “a public trust”. A California nonprofit public benefit corporation named “The Regents of the University of California” administers that trust.

https://businessfilings.sos.ca.gov/frmD … r=C0008116

That corporation is controlled by a Board of Regents and each member of the Board has the title Regent. The Regents are appointed by officials of the State of California. This governance structure gives the University protection from political pressures and that gives the faculty some measure of “academic freedom”.

Tom Kalbfus · 2017-03-22 11:23:47

JohnX wrote:

Tom Kalbfus wrote:
Who cares whether Mars is free of Earth's domination or not? There aren't any Martian residents to state an opinion on the matter, for all we know they might be fine with it!
Very true. Who are we to speak for them. The trouble would be if they are not fine with it. Getting free of 'domination' might involve a lengthy process of dispute, activism, political struggle, even armed struggle. That's great if we want to re-live Kim Stanley Robinson's novels, but not great for the people who have to live through it.
Isn't it better that Mars be free? As has been often stated in this thread & elsewhere, if there's even one Earth-based country, company or group with sovereignty or control over a patch of Mars or the settlers there, soon there could be many, then that leads pretty surely to conflicting claims and division. Much harder to reverse that and unite Mars later.
Is this a clash of visions? Some want Mars to continue what we do on Earth - making money, profits for the shareholders back home, being the best & strongest; others want to start again & try for something better.

The other possibility is "War of the Worlds" where the Martians seek to invade Earth, independence is a double-edged sword. An independent Mars is not necessarily a free Mars, the ruler of Mars might desire more territory and want to conquer Earth.

Scott Beach · 2017-03-22 11:31:39

JohnX wrote:

- not many in SpaceX et.al. may want to settle Tharsis - see NASA's search for an ideal settling point for example: 'The first human landing sites workshop in 2015 yielded 47 landing site proposals. ' - NASA landing site workshop

My spaceport site is just for purposes of discussion. However, I believe that the "soils" east of the Tharsis volcanoes have been enriched by many layers of volcanic ash.

Scott Beach · 2017-03-22 12:02:08

JohnX wrote:

- Are you anticipating that the Cooperative gets there first and builds a spaceport? Or are we just calling the location a spaceport in anticipation? At first landings there won't be anything there; the Cooperative wouldn't have anything to offer (unless it was v v well funded and could send its own autonomous infrastructure landers for robotic construction)

Perhaps the Board of Regents will arrange for SpaceX to deliver a habitation module to the spaceport and, in ceremonial fashion, to place the "Initial Point" monument that marks the center of the spaceport trust property. The habitation module might be designated as the office of the Territorial Marshall, and the authority of the T.M. would extend up to 50 miles from the Initial Point. The habitation module might include a Clerk's desk, where any homesteader can file a "Homestead Claim" to a parcel of land that is outside of the spaceport property and outside of the six settlements but within the 50-mile limit.

Frankly, I do not expect many homestead claims to be filed but the option should be available.

Scott Beach · 2017-03-22 13:58:34

Urban Planning on Mars

"Although various engineering, economic, and medical aspects of Mars habitation have received close attention from space agencies, far less attention has been given to the role of human dynamics in a Mars mission. This study outlines the relationship between human wellbeing and the planning and design of a Martian settlement. It draws from environmental psychology and urban planning to define a set of criteria for human wellbeing with respect to the built environment. Through the review of analogous habitats including Antarctic research bases and the International Space Station, the study analyzes the specific impacts that a Martian settlement will have on individual and societal wellbeing." Continued at...

https://digital.lib.washington.edu/rese … 1773/36865

Scott Beach · 2017-03-22 15:16:11

Reestablishment of the National Space Council

President Trump signed a NASA authorization bill yesterday.

“Vice President Mike Pence said March 21 that he expects the Trump administration to reestablish the National Space Council, a move that has the backing of a key member of Congress.

“Pence mentioned the National Space Council at the end of a signing ceremony at the White House for the NASA Transition Authorization Act of 2017, an event attended by members of Congress, NASA astronauts and NASA Acting Administrator Robert Lightfoot”.

http://spacenews.com/pence-confirms-pla … BkzMW.dpuf

I believe that we should prepare a report that describes the kinds of political and economic systems we would like to see established on Mars, and that we should present that report to the National Space Council.

JohnX · 2017-03-24 20:10:07

Food for thought? I went surfing for some other opinions on how Mars should be governed. It's hard to spot any angles that this forum hasn't covered. Maybe someone here will find a gem.

- The BBC got in there a few years ago with this piece. It mentions Charles Cockell, an astrobiologist at Edinburgh University whose name cropped up as a reference in one of the Blue Marble Institute papers.

- This one's even older - from 1998! Wow, did they even use computers back then? It's a 'White Paper' by Edward L. Hudgins of the 'Cato Institute' and I haven't read it all yet, but his aim is to discuss: 'Thus to ...make it [Mars] another home for the human race, an economic-political system will have to emerge that allows individuals or voluntary associations of individuals to secure exclusive rights to use resources and to exchanges freely with others, and that protects property, and enforces contracts.' Agree? Disagree?

- This question in Quora 'What-type-of-government...' mentions Red/Green/Blue Mars : '...a new model of economics and decentralized political control...' - as well as the example of the US Constitution and scientific bases in Antarctica; also people throw in 'chaos theory', the Wild West, Law of the Jungle, the tyranny of strict control over resources and so on.

A note of interest: When running my search, newmars.com/forum posts came up a few times too, as you'd expect. Getting people thinking and talking about these questions is a healthy thing, I believe.

JohnX · 2017-03-24 20:12:09

Scott Beach wrote:

Reestablishment of the National Space Council

I believe that we should prepare a report that describes the kinds of political and economic systems we would like to see established on Mars, and that we should present that report to the National Space Council.

Good idea. It's worth doing well. Not sure I'll be much help for a while, but go for it.

RobertDyck · 2017-03-25 00:11:49

JohnX wrote:

RobertDyck wrote:
Cool! Thunder Bay. Winnipeg has a science fiction convention every May long weekend: May 19-21. I always give a presentation about real space exploration: NASA, ESA, CSA, etc. It's an 8½ hour drive along highway 17. Or 1½ hour flight. Interested in coming to Keycon? It's mostly science fiction and fantasy, but a fun weekend-long party. Interested?
Yes, interested; able to come: not so much. Our family is already stretched by our 2 sons' soccer (aka football) tournaments. It is great to live in Thunder Bay but it's a long way to most other places apart from the lake & the forest!
A few of the soccer events are in Winnipeg. If one coincides with any of your events I'd surely try to attend.

Well, another big event is Central Canada Comic Con. Another genre event, not space. A few years ago a relatively wealthy member decided he didn't like how Keycon was run. They did bring in an actor once in a while, but not often, and the dealer room was relatively small. This guy wanted to sell copious quantities of stuff. So he founded his own convention. Reminds me of the character "Sheldon Cooper" in one episode of "The Big Bang Theory". But this guy has a degree in marketing and enough money to pull it off. It has become a major event. He recruited all the volunteers from Keycon to help him run Comic Con, and asked me to give my space presentation his first year. But he scheduled my talk after the big announcement that the dealer room was closing, and the announcement over the PA system made it sound like the entire convention closed. Almost no one attended my talk. Since then I've helped the local science fiction club and Keycon, but haven't given my space talk at Comic Con. However, Keycon gets 500 to 600 people each year, slightly more than the Mars Society gets, and they stay all weekend. Comic Con draws 20,000 people each year, but most only stay an hour or two. But Comic Con draws big name actors, like William Shatner, Patrick Stewart, and David Prowse (Darth Vader). The first year they brought the Klingon sisters, because one of them was originally from Winnipeg. The actress who played B'Etor flirted with me at her table. The organizer holds several smaller conventions during the year, but I don't attend those. The big one is near Halloween: this year October 27-29. One year a bunch of sports fans scoffed at those in science fiction costumes. But my brother in-law is one of the major volunteers, he pointed out there are more people at Comic Con than a Blue Bombers football game and Jets hockey game combined. The first Comic Con was held in a hotel, but the second was in the Convention Centre. The first time they were at the Convention Centre it was the largest convention that building ever hosted. And they had a problem: all the ATM machines downtown ran out of money. Comic Con is over a weekend, so downtown banks are closed, only their ATMs open. The founder/owner of the convention called the banks to ask them to refill the ATMs. He told me the person who answered the phone for one of the banks responded that it can't be, there's 3/4 of a million dollars in those machines. But he asked her to check. Click...click..."No it can't be! Ok, I'll get them refilled." Another year there was a Jets game at the hockey arena (our NHL team) the same day as Comic Con. One couple in Jets jerseys walked towards the arena while genre fans headed to the convention centre. The man noticed the teenage girls in skimpy outfits and fishnet stalkings, asked his wife "Are we headed in the right direction?" His wife just grabbed hand and said "Come on!"

We had a scientist from CSA come to give a talk about Canadian participation in Mars Phoenix. Actually I led the effort to bring her here, got the local planetarium/science centre to host it and do most of the work. Yea, I know the manager there too. The scientist was Dr. Victoria Hipkin, who I met at symposium before she worked for CSA. I was impressed, and CSA was sending her around the country, so I contacted CSA to ensure they sent her here. Another year we had a talk at the university by Marc Garneau, Canada's first astronaut. Another year astronaut Dr. Robert Thirsk came. I didn't help organize either of those, but did attend. Didn't know either of them, but got to meet them. Don't know when the next one of those will be.

Last edited by RobertDyck (2017-03-25 11:08:25)

JohnX · 2017-03-25 07:37:21

RobertDyck wrote:

Well, another big event is Central Canada Comic Con. Another genre event, not space. .....

You live an interesting life.
Well we had Chris Hadfield through to speak at the community auditorium a couple of years ago and I found him to be a pretty good speaker. Then the NASA Planetary Science director Jim (Green?) stopped by a couple of weeks ago at the university to speak about the search for life - but not mainly about Mars, so he had a very wide scope and that was educational, and a very well attended event - a lecture hall and an overflow both crammed with people.

As much as I'm interested in all this, I can't see myself starting a Mars Society branch in T Bay!

Scott Beach · 2017-03-25 21:02:57

“If and when the Moon and Mars are settled in the future through other incentives, the nations of Earth will eventually have to recognize these settlements' authority over their own land. But to create an incentive now, governments would need to commit to recognizing that ownership in advance, rather than long after the fact.” Page 39.
“The following discussion lays out the argument that current international law, and especially "the Outer Space Treaty," does appear to permit private property ownership in space and permit nations on Earth to recognize land ownership claims made by private space settlements, without these nations being guilty of national appropriation or any other legal violation.” Page 44.
Alan Wasser, et al., Space Settlements, Property Rights, and International Law: Could a Lunar Settlement Claim the Lunar Real Estate It Needs to Survive, 73 Journal of Air Law & Commerce 37 (2008)
http://scholar.smu.edu/jalc/vol73/iss1/3

I believe that a nation that is not a party to the Outer Space Treaty could claim a portion of Mars and issue “Mars Settlement Permits”. I also believe that the United States of America, which is a party to the Outer Space Treaty, could recognize the validity of those permits without violating the Outer Space Treaty. That recognition might make the holders of the settlement permits eligible to receive infrastructure development loans from the World Bank or the International Monetary Fund.

If a number of Mars Society chapters applied for and received Mars Settlement Permits, and if they received an infrastructure development loan from the World Bank or the International Monetary Fund, what would they do with that money?

They might first design and build a ground transport vehicle that is capable of taking passengers from one settlement to another, and from any settlement to the spaceport. If the distance between settlements and the spaceport is about 20 miles then the vehicle could be powered by compressed air. If the vehicle broke down during a trip between two settlements or between a settlement and the spaceport then the compressed air in the “fuel” tanks could be used to supply air to the occupants of the vehicle until a replacement vehicle could arrive and take passengers safely to their intended destination.

The ground transport vehicles might be manufactured under the name “MarsMobile”.

Last edited by Scott Beach (2017-03-25 21:59:39)

RobertDyck · 2017-03-26 02:02:08

JohnX wrote:

- This one's even older - from 1998! Wow, did they even use computers back then?

You added a wink, but I have to point out we did. My career as a computer programmer began half-way through first year university. It wasn't a co-op job, I did the same work as a recent graduate. Getting up to speed at work was intense! Second year university felt slow after that. My first job was developing software for microcomputers; today we call them personal computers. They hand an 8-bit processor, ran the CP/M operating system, and a word processor program called WordStar did exist. Shortly after that IBM developed their first PC, model 5150, commonly known as the "PC". It used the 8086 processor, Intel's first 16-bit processor. Microsoft convinced IBM they had an operating system that would run on that, but they didn't. They bought something called "Q-DOS" which stood for "Quick and Dirty Operating System". It was a rip-off port of CP/M to the then-new 16-bit processor. Microsoft renamed it "MS-DOS" which stood for Microsoft Disk Operating System". IBM sent thousands of testers to identify problems, which Microsoft fixed. They made a word processor program in the 1980s called "Word". Later they came out with Windows, and "Word" was quickly ported to that.

When I went to University, TCP/IP was not invented yet. It was in 1982, but wasn't available to students in my university. I first saw TCP/IP on the job in 1987. Initially the internet replaced ARPANET for government labs. My alma mater informed the public it was available to them through the universities in 1990. Windows 3.1 required an add-on called "Win-Sock", which stood for "Windows Sockets". It implemented the socket layer of TCP/IP.

Talking of old stuff, I still have a paper from NASA's technical report server. It was written in 1997, and describes microwave regenerating silver oxide granules which remove CO2 from cabin air. The current system uses silver oxide sheet metal in the PLSS backpack of EMU suits, and that's regenerated with an electro-resistive oven. Effectively a toaster oven. Microwave regeneration would be far more energy efficient, although it requires granules instead of sheet metal. But granules are have more surface area per unit mass, and it's the surface that adsorbs CO2. So granules require less mass anyway. I keep asking why they don't do this on ISS?

Last edited by RobertDyck (2017-03-26 09:56:57)

elderflower · 2017-03-26 02:43:33

Just as a matter of interest I still have an old computer in my loft which ran Qdos. I wonder if it would still work. When I'm really bored I might try it.

SpaceNut · 2017-03-26 15:54:06

I think PDos is the pirated version of Qdos but didn't that run on mac's....

Bringing back memories of college years when talking about the intel 8086 as we had the single board demonstrator unit that had the led display for what you entered into the command switches. I also worked with the pdp11 and nova computers back in the ealy 80's with the old paper tape boot strap loader, 8 inch single sided floppy and the washing machine sized hard disk platers as well as the 9track nrz formated reel to reel backup systems....

elderflower · 2017-03-27 12:09:04

I'm not sure those were the good old days in ALL respects.

RobertDyck · 2017-03-27 16:05:40

If you want to play around with a single board computer today, there's always Raspberry-pi. And I was involved with effort in 2001 to build a spacesuit simulator for FMARS. The lead of that project wanted a data-logger, an electronic device that could log geological samples. I suggested a device that could be strapped to the forearm. Or a pocket sewn into a spacesuit to perfectly fit an electronic device, with the a touch display exposed on the forearm. At that time in 2001, I suggested a Compaq iPaq. At the time I worked for a company that specialized in developing software for the QNX operating system. And there was a way to "flash" the QNX operating system onto the iPaq. Mars rovers used the VxWorks operating system, which is a high-reliability operating system based on Unix. QNX is also a high reliability operating system based on Unix. They were competitors. I was told the vision system of CanadArm used QNX, although the movement system used VxWorks. My idea for the analog suit was a serial cable from the iPaq on your wrist to a simple one-chip microcontroller (eg PIC) in the PLSS backpack to control equipment. The backpack for Mars Society analog suits just has a battery with fan that blows air into the helmet. But we could add voltage sensor to tell you charge of the battery, and you could control speed of the fan. Perhaps a temperature sensor in the air stream.

Another interesting piece of trivia is since then Parse Software which produces QNX has been bought out. Research In Motion (RIM) manufactured the Blackberry. They were so known for that one product that they changed the name of the company to the product name: Blackberry. They bought Parse Software, now known as "QNX Software - a Blackberry subsidiary". and used QNX for all their new Blackberry devices. That means I have experience developing software for it! Well, sort-of. I worked on it before Blackberry customized it for their device.

Lots of branding sponsorship opportunities. Spacesuit control system by Blackberry, Mars boots by Nike, etc?

Last edited by RobertDyck (2017-03-28 11:25:01)

JohnX · 2017-03-27 20:02:12

RobertDyck wrote:

JohnX wrote:
- This one's even older - from 1998! Wow, did they even use computers back then?
You added a wink, but I have to point out we did.

Definitely a wink! My first computer was a Sinclair ZX-81, which came with precisely 1kB of RAM and no hard drive! I studied at uni 1985-88, just when TCP/IP was this brand-new mysterious thing we studied, as if it was quantum computing or something. Anyway, enough off-topic stuff from me!

Terraformer · 2017-03-28 04:08:21

Lots of banding sponsorship opportunities. Spacesuit control system by Blackberry, Mars boots by Nike, etc?

I will not bow to any sponsor.

Scott Beach · 2017-03-31 20:13:17

Article XVII of the Outer Space Treaty reads, in part, “This Treaty, of which the English, Russian, French, Spanish and Chinese texts are equally authentic, shall be deposited in the archives of the Depositary Governments”.

https://www.state.gov/t/isn/5181.htm

The Spanish version of the treaty can be translated into English as “The exploration and utilization of outer space… is the business of all mankind”. I am reasonably certain that our businessman in chief would be very pleased by this translation.

Scott Beach · 2017-04-01 06:48:36

Fesenkov Crater

The Fesenkov impact crater on Mars is 87 kilometers in diameter (i.e., 54 miles wide).

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_c … ars:_A-G#F

“The area around craters may be rich in minerals. On Mars, heat from the impact melts ice in the ground. Water from the melting ice dissolves minerals, and then deposits them in cracks or faults that were produced with the impact. This process, called hydrothermal alteration, is a major way in which ore deposits are produced. The area around Martian craters may be rich in useful ores for the future colonization of Mars”.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fesenkov_(Martian_crater)

I believe that the “soil” around Fesenkov Crater is rich in minerals that were ejected from the crater during impact. Those minerals may be important to growing nutritious food. I also believe that the volcanoes in the Tharsis Region of Mars have erupted many times and deposited many layers of volcanic ash on the lands around Fesenkov Crater.

https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File … oom_32.jpg
(Fesenkov Crater is near to the eastern side of the Tharsis Region
and is at about the same latitude as Olympus Mons.)

An area about 120 miles south by southeast of Fesenkov Crater has been photographed by the Mars Reconnaissance Orbiter.

http://viewer.mars.asu.edu/planetview/i … 8N084W&T=2

Directly above the horizontal midline of that photograph is a smooth, reasonably level area. That might be a good place to put a spaceport and a number of settlements.

Scott Beach · 2017-04-01 09:24:53

DRAFT Authorization to Establish Provinces on Mars

The French chapter of the Mars Society has requested that the Principality of Andorra authorize the French chapter to establish a province on Mars. And the Spanish chapter of the Mars Society has requested that the Principality of Andorra authorize the Spanish chapter to establish a province on Mars. Their requests are granted in the following Parts.

Part 1. Provincial Charter Number 1

The Principality of Andorra hereby authorizes the French chapter of the Mars Society to establish a province on Mars. The province shall be 12 miles wide (east to west) and 12 miles high (north to south) and shall contain approximately 144 square miles. The chapter shall adopt a resolution that states the latitude and longitude of each of the 4 corners of the province. The resolution shall state the name of the province, shall establish the initial structure of the government of the province, and shall state the names of the initial officers of the government. The government shall enact a law which provides that the exploration and utilization of Mars is the prerogative of all humankind and that every person is eligible to become a resident of the province.

The lands within the province may, in accordance with laws enacted by the government, be divided into any number of parcels. Parcels may be leased to persons and organizations for such consideration as the government may determine. The revenue from such leases may be expended for the purpose of constructing, maintaining, and operating a spaceport and other public infrastructure.

The government may enter into an agreement with one or more other provinces to jointly construct, maintain, and operate a spaceport. The boundary of the joint spaceport may be up to 20 miles in diameter. The latitude and longitude of the geometric center of the joint spaceport shall be stated in the agreement.

Part 2. Provincial Charter Number 2

The Principality of Andorra hereby authorizes the Spanish chapter of the Mars Society to establish a province on Mars. The province shall be 12 miles wide (east to west) and 12 miles high (north to south) and shall contain approximately 144 square miles. The chapter shall adopt a resolution that states the latitude and longitude of each of the 4 corners of the province. The resolution shall state the name of the province, shall establish the initial structure of the government of the province, and shall state the names of the initial officers of the government. The government shall enact a law which provides that the exploration and utilization of Mars is the prerogative of all humankind and that every person is eligible to become a resident of the province.

The lands within the province may, in accordance with laws enacted by the government, be divided into any number of parcels. Parcels may be leased to persons and organizations for such consideration as the government may determine. The revenue from such leases may be expended for the purpose of constructing, maintaining, and operating a spaceport and other public infrastructure.

The government may enter into an agreement with one or more other provinces to jointly construct, maintain, and operate a spaceport. The boundary of the joint spaceport may be up to 20 miles in diameter. The latitude and longitude of the geometric center of the joint spaceport shall be stated in the agreement.

Part 3. Independence and Sovereignty

Each province authorized by the Principality of Andorra shall maintain a registry of live births. When the number of live births in a province is equal to 101 the province may at any time thereafter declare its independence and establish a sovereign state. Two or more provinces may jointly declare their independence and establish a sovereign state when the combined number live births in those provinces is equal to 101 or more.

Part 4. Additional Provincial Charters

The Principality of Andorra hereby invites each of the other chapters of the Mars Society to apply for an authorization to establish a province on Mars. The application fee shall be 100 Euros.

Last edited by Scott Beach (2017-04-01 15:15:40)

Scott Beach · 2017-04-01 09:31:33

Draft Resolution of the _______ Chapter of the Mars Society

We, the undersigned members of the Mars Society, have joined together to promote the exploration and settlement of the planet Mars. We have obtained from the Principality of Andorra a Charter that authorizes us to establish a province on Mars. Acting in accordance with the Charter, we declare that:

(1) The latitude and longitude of the northwest corner of the province is ______________;
The latitude and longitude of the northeast corner of the province is ______________;
The latitude and longitude of the southwest corner of the province is ______________;
The latitude and longitude of the southeast corner of the province is ______________;

(2) the name of the province is ________;

(3) the province shall initially be governed by a Board of Governors;

(4) the membership of the Board of Governors includes ________ and ________ and ________;

(5) the province shall have a president, a secretary, and a treasurer and such other officers as the Board of Governors may determine;

(6) ________ is the initial president of the province and ________ the initial secretary and ________ is the initial treasurer;

(7) the Board of Governors may authorize the formation of a “funding corporation” that will handle the terrestrial business affairs of the province.
[The Government of Florida has established a Florida nonprofit corporation named “Scripps Florida Funding Corporation”; https://scripps.edu/florida/about/scien … 659841.pdf . That corporation raises money to pay the operating expenses of the The Scripps Research Institute; https://www.scripps.edu/florida/.] The province’s funding corporation may contract with a rocket company to deliver settlers and building materials to the site of the province’s spaceport, or to the site of the joint spaceport of several provinces.

Draft Bill No. 1
The Board of Governors of ________ Province does hereby enact as follows:

The Board of Governors of ________ Province, acting in accordance with the Charter of ________ Province, does hereby declare that the exploration and utilization of Mars is the prerogative of all humankind and that every person is eligible to become a resident of ________ Province.

Last edited by Scott Beach (2017-04-01 09:36:18)

JohnX · 2017-04-01 11:52:59

Scott, that's quite a piece of work. I have no idea if it will fly - I hope you get somewhere with it - just a couple of notes:
- You probably know that most Europeans work in km
- Your point about there being resource-rich dirt around asteroid impacts is right, I think. A few hundred kilometres north of us is Sudbury, an ancient impact crater (though latest research suggests it could have been a comet) and Sudbury has a huge number of mines for metals etc etc. Actually some of the ejecta from that impact landed in our town! Glad nobody was here at the time...

RobertDyck · 2017-04-01 12:54:45

JohnX wrote:

A few hundred kilometres north of us is Sudbury, an ancient impact crater (though latest research suggests it could have been a comet) and Sudbury has a huge number of mines for metals etc etc. Actually some of the ejecta from that impact landed in our town! Glad nobody was here at the time...

Sudbury is actually east, and a little south of Thunder Bay. People in Toronto consider anything north of Steels Avenue to be inside the arctic circle. I'm from Winnipeg but spent 3 years in North York, a borough of Toronto. Steels Avenue is the northern border of the city of Toronto (it was Metro Toronto when I lived there). And Steels Avenue is south of the 49th parallel; the most northern part within Toronto is 43°50'. So what does that say about their attitude to the rest of Canada?

I visited a conference about asteroid mining hosted by a mining technology institute in Sudbury. They said the crater in Sudbury is 30 miles wide by 60 miles long (they had a number of Americans present) which was created by an impact 2 billion years ago. The impact left iron-nickel alloy embedded within the rock, so that means at was a metal asteroid. The nickel mines around Sudbury are mining what's left of that metal asteroid. And its the world's third largest deposit of platinum. Larger platinum deposits are volcanic, the largest in South Africa, the second in Siberia. But the platinum in Sudbury comes from the nickel of the metal asteroid. There's also gold and silver, which sticks to iron when metal is molten. And all the platinum group metals. And copper and other industrial metals. It's highly unusual for an ore body on Earth to have so many different metals, but not so unusual for an asteroid.

Last edited by RobertDyck (2017-04-01 16:30:55)

JohnX · 2017-04-01 15:55:45

Fair enough - it's south and east, not north. But to get to it we drive north, so forgive my confusion!

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