Politics

kbd512 · 2017-02-06 18:36:15

GW,

Do you remember all those riots we had after President Obama was elected where conservatives were burning cars and destroying peoples' property? Me neither. If turnabout truly is fair play, are conservatives free to engage in the same criminal behaviors the liberals are so fond of?

Conservative obstructionism? Over what substantive issue?

* Murdering an American citizen who was not an immediate threat to anyone with a missile fired from a drone
* Knowingly selling firearms to Mexican drug cartel members
* Using the IRS to suppress conservatives' freedom of speech
* Selling weapons to ISIS and al-Qaeda
* Attempting to use executive orders to overturn our immigration laws
* Secretary Clinton authorizing sale of Uranium to the Russians after we imposed sanctions on them for invading Ukraine

Was any of that good for the people? If so, which ones? Is that really what you wanted to continue under a President Clinton? Is it possible that Cassie was trying to tell you something about all of that, too?

RobertDyck · 2017-02-06 19:40:12

SpaceNut wrote:

That Gw like button was just hit.....dam thats a facebook feature....

This forum is based on FluxBB. Developers are joined with developers of another forum software, producing a radical upgrade called Flarum. That is in Beta now, and it does have a "like" button. However, their demonstration forum looks radically different. Not sure I like it; better to stick with what we have.

And GW: consider your post "liked" by me too.

Tom Kalbfus · 2017-02-06 23:02:01

RobertDyck wrote:

Tom, watch the video by Hasan Piker. He points out he can disagree with a policy of Obama despite the fact he voted for him. I disagree with some actions of Obama, even though he made a lot of good promises.
I disagree with settling the issue of secession by war. The Confederacy should have had the right to secede peacefully. It was brought to the Supreme Court, and should have been settled there. That does not conflict with my disapproval of slavery. President Lincoln chose a compromise, that all new states would not be permitted slavery, but states that had slavery would be permitted to continue. This would make slavery a minority within the Union as the Union expanded. His intention was to phase out slavery peacefully. Notice the key word: "peacefully".
Also realize my discomfort with this immigration ban. Restricting immigration from an enemy country during war is legitimate. However, the problem is Trump did not say this was to halt immigration of terrorists, it was to halt immigration from Muslim countries.

Well actually he did, what other reason could he have to halt immigration from just seven Muslim countries that are prone to terrorism?

That was his mistake. As I already explained, Osama bin Laden did not have authority under Muslim law to issue a Fatwa, but made the declaration anyway. Osama bin Laden tried to turn this from a terrorist issue into a religious issue. He wanted all Muslims on his side. But the King of Saudi Arabia was not, and religious leaders were not. If you allow your opponent to frame this as religious, you give your opponent a vast pool of allies and potential recruits. There are more people in the word who practice the Muslim faith than Christians, so allowing this to become a religious crusade could become very very dangerous. What the "liberals" are trying to do is cut off those recruits from terrorists.
Well violence is always easier, maybe that's what some people find attractive about Islam and makes them want to convert to it. Muhammad was a war leader after all and Jesus was a pacifist. Muhammad had multiple wives and slaves, and other people want those too. Jesus had none of those things, he believed in the Golden Rule, where you do unto others as you would have them do unto you. Muhammad was a bandit, he stole things raided desert caravans, he had an underage wife, he was far from a perfect human being!
CBC: Prosecute ISIS fighters for murder, rape, slavery, torture — not just terrorism, expert says
To stop the flow of recruits to ISIS, Canada and its allies need to put captured members of the group on trial for each crime they commit rather than lumping their offences under the generic term of terrorism, says the Canadian head of a group investigating atrocities in Iraq and Syria.
Bill Wiley, executive director for the Commission for International Justice and Accountability, has been working with investigators on the ground to tie crimes such as systematic murder, rape, slavery and torture to the ISIS leadership.
He says that while putting captured ISIS fighters on trial for terrorism may be easier than prosecuting them for slavery, genocide and the persecution of minorities, it will not cut off the flow of recruits to the militant group.
"It's a relatively quick way to prosecute individuals, but … with a lot of possible joiners of these groups, if you prosecute an [ISIS] member as a terrorist, it may serve as an incentive to others to join because they'll say: 'Well, if we're terrorists, what about George Bush, what about Tony Blair and so forth,'" Wiley told CBC's Power & Politics.
"We really feel that this counterterrorism effort needs to be coupled with a criminal prosecutorial effort, which reveals groups such as the Islamic State to essentially be criminal syndicates engaged in murder, narcotics trafficking, sexual slavery and so forth — to leave aside the terrorist label wherever possible," Wiley said.

Tom Kalbfus · 2017-02-06 23:09:25

SpaceNut wrote:

Trump is already committing the same group of sins....he just has not had time to do them all....
SEAL, American Girl Die in First Trump-Era U.S. Military Raid all for Yemen Raid Had Secret Target: Al Qaeda Leader Qassim Al-Rimi
So is his love of Putin Not a Friend, Poisoned Russian Activist's Wife Tells Trump and I do not think our country’s so innocent either....
So who is going to suffer more under trump or clinton Trump Voters Stand to Suffer Most From Obamacare Repeal and a Trade War so yes there are Protests Against Trump’s Policies Erupt for Third Weekend in Cities Large and Small
Conservatives forget history in discrediting Trump protesters

Obama’s election in 2008 was preceded and followed by violent attacks and property destruction targeted against minorities.
Kaylon Johnson, an African American campaign worker for Obama, was physically assaulted for wearing an Obama T-shirt in Louisiana following the 2008 election. The three white male attackers shouted “Fuck Obama!” and “Nigger president!” as they broke Johnson’s nose and fractured his eye-socket, requiring surgery.
Here's how America 'peacefully' responded to Obama's first election, Anti-Trump protests gotta end, right?
Remember All the Violent, Anti-Obama Protests by Republicans in 2008 and 2012?
Selling weapons to ISIS and al-Qaeda? only half truth ploy to get Al-qaeda to fight ISIS as ARMS TO AL-QAEDA: U.S. Generals Admit Washington Has Backed Islamic Militants in Syria and both claimed that Arms dealer says Clinton and Obama accidentally gave guns to ISIS, Al Qaeda and Benghazi attackers - then tried to scapegoat him for their screw-up with failed $10m felony case
The obama executive orders to overturn our immigration laws Conservative obstructionism that republicans did why trying to pass actual law for taking care of it. So someone had to do something....
How it was reported Cash Flowed to Clinton Foundation Amid Russian Uranium Deal private sales of Canadian company with uranium-mining stakes stretching from Central Asia to the American West. Clinton's dumbness for doing what they thought was right actually was the wrong thing to do....http://www.businessinsider.com/everything-we-know-about-the-hillary-clinton-russia-uranium-scandal-2015-4

Not following all of this, some thoughts seem jumbled, But I think Trump has a strategy, he considers Iran to be the greater enemy, and he wants to turn Russia against Iran, so he's willing to overlook some of Russia's flaws to do this. Russia is after all a western Christian country built on European traditions. We have more in common with Russia than we do with Iran. FDR did the same thing with Russia to defeat Germany.

GW Johnson · 2017-02-07 11:55:49

Liberals=rioters?

Well, the actions of some tar the reputation of all the rest. A few hundred rioters versus millions of protesters. I do not excuse rioting. But to paint all of Trump/tea party's opposition as destructive rioters is as wrong as what the rioters did.

As I have said before, I didn't like either choice (violent detestation would be more accurate), but I thought Trump would be the worse of two great evils due to the chaos he brings to everything he has ever done. That just doesn't work in governing. Seems to be a true prediction, at least so far.

How the two parties produced these two abortions as candidates is no accident, in my opinion. But that's another story.

What I object to in these conversations here is the overt racism and xenophobia I see in some of the postings. That simply has no place anywhere in civilized life! Neither does the use of "alternative facts", because there is no such thing. A lie is a lie, no matter how it is dressed.

"Civilizations" that do not value truth or the innate worth of people are not civilizations. Example: the Third Reich. Example: Bolshevik Russia. Example: Imperial Japan. (I didn't include ISIS, Al Qaeda, or the Taliban, because no one in their right mind would ever claim those evils are civilizations.) Need I say more?

GW

Last edited by GW Johnson (2017-02-07 12:01:05)

Tom Kalbfus · 2017-02-07 12:13:30

Well GW, how many Germans and Japanese did we let into our country during World War II? Was that a large number of people? Does that mark us as Xenophobes if we didn't let in a lot of nationals of Enemy countries we were fighting at the time, while we were fighting their countries? Do you suppose there were some Japanese citizens out their that were willing to "die for their Emperor" if only they could get their feet on American soil? they were doing it to our soldiers overseas, why would you suppose that they would change their behavior suddenly if they were allowed to immigrate during World War II?

As for rioting, Democrats have more of a reputation for doing that than Republicans, lets go back to the riots of New York in 1863, this occurred shortly after the battle of Gettysburg.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_York_City_draft_riots

Date July 13, 1863 – July 16, 1863
Location Manhattan, New York, U.S.
Result Riots ultimately suppressed
Casualties
Death(s) 119–120
Injuries 2,000
The rioters were largely Democrats who were opposed to the War, and the opposed the war violently! Has anything changed?

GW Johnson · 2017-02-07 13:36:25

Tom, you are just the kind of racist, xenophobic, alternate-facts-believing idiot that we have had causing trouble all along in this country. It was idiots like that who convinced FDR to imprison loyal Japanese-Americans for the duration of WW2.

In hindsight, only a racist xenophobe would consider that a good policy decision today; it is widely regarded as a terrible mistake, and has been so regarded (and rightly so) for at least 60 years now.

Yet that nonsense is exactly what we are doing with already-severely-vetted refugees, in spite of the fact that none of our terrorist attackers over here have ever come from those refugee populations. They came from simple visit visas or from self-radicalized citizens and naturalized citizens who fell for the "alternate facts" presented by extremist-Muslim propagandists.

The famous 442nd Army division that fought so bravely against the Nazis were all Japanese-Americans from the internment camps at Manzanar and the rest. No one interned ever turned out to be a threat. Some served with distinction, even after having their lives and livelihoods destroyed by internment. Would you have chosen to serve after being abused like that? They did.

My own maternal grandfather changed his name from Wilhelm Friedrich Olsen to William Frederick Olsen because of the anti-German hysteria after the 1915 sinking of the Lusitania. His mother was German, and his father was Danish. He was a US Navy battleship sailor during WW1. So how much of a threat was he, just because of his German ancestry? I'll give you a one-word hint: zero.

My own father-in-law fought surface naval engagements and hand-to-hand with a pistol against the Japanese in WW2. He had the worst case of PTSD I ever heard of, compounded with dementia as he aged. Yet he did not hate Japanese just because they were Japanese, and/or because their government was an evil empire before VJ Day. My own wife is living proof: she is half-Japanese.

During wartime, we didn't let many nationals in from enemy countries except maybe some refugees or those wishing to switch sides, and that's likely closer to the right thing to do.

As for your rioting example, how about the treatment of the army veterans marching for promised benefits after WW1? It was a republican president who ordered the Army troops to fire on them. Now who's doing the violence, liberals or conservatives? There are examples of such bad behavior on both sides throughout our history, so being selective in what you quote is just more BS.

My point IS NOT to defend either liberal or conservative political behavior. My point IS that extremized politics, like extremized religion, begets EVIL. I think substituting blind belief in a political belief system, instead of using truth and common sense, is sending us back to the dark ages. You seem to be such an extremist.

GW

Last edited by GW Johnson (2017-02-07 13:41:54)

kbd512 · 2017-02-07 18:23:23

GW Johnson wrote:

Liberals=rioters?
Well, the actions of some tar the reputation of all the rest. A few hundred rioters versus millions of protesters. I do not excuse rioting. But to paint all of Trump/tea party's opposition as destructive rioters is as wrong as what the rioters did.

I never said all liberals were rioters. You made that fallacious logical leap all on your own. My point was that there is no excuse for destroying the community you live in because you're upset about not getting your way.

GW Johnson wrote:

As I have said before, I didn't like either choice (violent detestation would be more accurate), but I thought Trump would be the worse of two great evils due to the chaos he brings to everything he has ever done. That just doesn't work in governing. Seems to be a true prediction, at least so far.

President Trump isn't the problem. The problem is the outrageous liberal over-reactions to everything he does and says. He's like the old uncle at your birthday party who grew up in the 1950's and doesn't have a filter between his brain and his mouth. That said, every four years we hear the same tired liberal malarkey about how the Republican candidate for President is the root of all evil in the world and no different than Adolf Hitler. Liberals need to make better arguments and stop the ridiculous identity politics. President Trump is to Adolf Hitler as a door knob is to a cooking pot. The door knob and the pot are both metal. All other similarities end there.

GW Johnson wrote:

How the two parties produced these two abortions as candidates is no accident, in my opinion. But that's another story.

Does Cassie have an answer for this one? If so, I'd love to read about it.

GW Johnson wrote:

What I object to in these conversations here is the overt racism and xenophobia I see in some of the postings. That simply has no place anywhere in civilized life! Neither does the use of "alternative facts", because there is no such thing. A lie is a lie, no matter how it is dressed.

Are the gay men living in America afraid of muslim immigrants because they're racist and xenophobic? This is another tired argument that only holds sway over the intellectually dishonest and magical thinkers. I don't agree with Bill Maher on very much, but when he says there's a difference in the general level of violence attributable to the various religions of the world in modern history, he's not mistaken.

Islam is not a race or ethnicity, it's an intolerant religious and political machination. I am neither opposed to people coming here who don't look like me, nor do I care about what religion they practice. I do care about whether or not ritualized violence is an endemic part of their religion or culture and whether or not their state supports criminal activities carried out against minority ethnicities and religions.

GW Johnson wrote:

"Civilizations" that do not value truth or the innate worth of people are not civilizations. Example: the Third Reich. Example: Bolshevik Russia. Example: Imperial Japan. (I didn't include ISIS, Al Qaeda, or the Taliban, because no one in their right mind would ever claim those evils are civilizations.) Need I say more?
GW

Is this the famous "If their valuation system is not exactly like our own, they're not civilized" argument? Valuation systems vary wildly throughout the world because different cultures place varying emphasis on varying values. Sometimes those value systems can be altered so as to make them congruent with our own and sometimes that's not possible. If I'm not mistaken, that exact kind of argument led to slavery and genocide.

Pretending that you have more in common with muslim immigrants from a war zone than you do with the people you're already living with is unlikely to change the immigrants' opinions about you, but it can be a good way to get yourself killed if they don't share your belief in pluralism. If you haven't figured out their general opinion of the infidel by now, then no one can help you. Pluralism only works at all here because our government restrains people. There are plenty of graphic examples that illustrate what happens when the government is unable to restrain its citizens or itself. If you haven't seen unrestrained human behavior with your own two eyes at your age, then you have no idea how much I envy you.

All I can say is that you haven't lived until you've had a group of people you've never met trying to pound your face into the pavement for walking home. Fun times. Not... I sincerely hope you're right about these refugees we're taking in from the various war zones of the world. Sadly, the human nature involved doesn't work out in our favor. There is still hope. That's all we really have.

Tom Kalbfus · 2017-02-07 22:41:46

GW Johnson wrote:

Tom, you are just the kind of racist, xenophobic, alternate-facts-believing idiot that we have had causing trouble all along in this country. It was idiots like that who convinced FDR to imprison loyal Japanese-Americans for the duration of WW2.

Do you really think a president that was commander in chief of a segregated armed forces needed in isolationist Republican to whisper in his ear and tell him to intern Japanese-Americans? You don't think he could have figured it out himself? You know, FDR was secretary of the Navy under Woodrow Wilson, himself a member of the KKK, FDR had no compunctions about working for such a racist as him. Wilson as the one who segregated the Armed forces, the Navy under FDR was segregated.

GW Johnson wrote:

In hindsight, only a racist xenophobe would consider that a good policy decision today; it is widely regarded as a terrible mistake, and has been so regarded (and rightly so) for at least 60 years now.

How do you know it was a mistake? The fact that it worked and prevented Japanese-Americans from making attacks on other Americans on behalf of their ancestral homeland. The fact that there were Arab-Americans who have made attacks on other Americans on behalf of ISIS, makes me think Japanese-Americans could have done that also, and that FDR may have prevented some civilian deaths by doing so.
I think Trump is less racist than FDR as FDR was in charge of a segregated Armed Forces and Trump is not!

GW Johnson wrote:

Yet that nonsense is exactly what we are doing with already-severely-vetted refugees, in spite of the fact that none of our terrorist attackers over here have ever come from those refugee populations. They came from simple visit visas or from self-radicalized citizens and naturalized citizens who fell for the "alternate facts" presented by extremist-Muslim propagandists.

Those radicalized citizens were Muslim to start with, they were vulnerable to extremist-Muslim propagandists in a way, Christians and Jews were not!

The famous 442nd Army division that fought so bravely against the Nazis were all Japanese-Americans from the internment camps at Manzanar and the rest. No one interned ever turned out to be a threat.

Because FDR did not give them a chance to become one! It was figured that the Japanese-Americans would have no trouble fighting Germans, but they were not permitted to fight in the Pacific against their cousins from Japan.

Some served with distinction, even after having their lives and livelihoods destroyed by internment. Would you have chosen to serve after being abused like that? They did.
My own maternal grandfather changed his name from Wilhelm Friedrich Olsen to William Frederick Olsen because of the anti-German hysteria after the 1915 sinking of the Lusitania. His mother was German, and his father was Danish. He was a US Navy battleship sailor during WW1. So how much of a threat was he, just because of his German ancestry? I'll give you a one-word hint: zero.

Did Germans worship the Kaiser as a god? The Japanese did with their Emperor. The Japanese were fanatical, I didn't hear too much about fanatical Germans.

My own father-in-law fought surface naval engagements and hand-to-hand with a pistol against the Japanese in WW2. He had the worst case of PTSD I ever heard of, compounded with dementia as he aged. Yet he did not hate Japanese just because they were Japanese, and/or because their government was an evil empire before VJ Day. My own wife is living proof: she is half-Japanese.

Did he hate those Japanese that were shooting at him and frankly trying to kill him? What about those Japanese that crashed their airplanes into US ships? What about those Japanese that pretended to surrender and then blew themselves up when some American GIs went in to take them in, and even more despicable, what about those Japanese soldiers that used Japanese civilians, such as girls, planted explosives on them, an then at gun point told them to go surrender to American soldiers and then detonated the explosives killing the girl and the surrounding American GIs. And of course there was the despicable way the Japanese soldiers treated American POWs and civilians they captured, using them as slave labor, starving them, chopping their heads off and so forth! That was very personal stuff, how can you not hate people who did stuff like that?

During wartime, we didn't let many nationals in from enemy countries except maybe some refugees or those wishing to switch sides, and that's likely closer to the right thing to do.
As for your rioting example, how about the treatment of the army veterans marching for promised benefits after WW1? It was a republican president who ordered the Army troops to fire on them.

The Germans had their equivalent, you heard of the Nazi party, that started out as a bunch if disgruntled World War I veterans, perhaps Herbert Hoover was thinking of those people and got scared. We can't have war veterans taking over the government by force, and then doing what afterwards? Hitler was one of those war veterans, the danger was very real!

Now who's doing the violence, liberals or conservatives? There are examples of such bad behavior on both sides throughout our history, so being selective in what you quote is just more BS.
My point IS NOT to defend either liberal or conservative political behavior. My point IS that extremized politics, like extremized religion, begets EVIL. I think substituting blind belief in a political belief system, instead of using truth and common sense, is sending us back to the dark ages. You seem to be such an extremist.
GW

I learn from historical events, and I see that Socialism, wherever it has been tried has failed, that leaves us only with free markets due to the process of elimination. No country has ever become rich and prosperous due to socialism.

Last edited by Tom Kalbfus (2017-02-07 22:44:02)

Tom Kalbfus · 2017-02-07 22:53:38

I think its kind of obvious that the artist that drew this picture was sympathetic to the rioters. Look at what the Army brought to quell this riot, a cannon! And you can see the woman running out to some of the men, and the dog on its back maybe dead. The Union soldiers are distant and in the background. I also heard that during this riot, a bunch of blacks were lynched and hung from trees and lamp posts, but this picture doesn't show any of that!

Last edited by Tom Kalbfus (2017-02-07 22:54:59)

GW Johnson · 2017-02-08 11:26:54

OK, I'm through with this bullshit conversation for sure.

I'm very tired of being "flamed" by people who so obviously do not know what they talk about, and who so obviously cannot read and understand a simple sentence in English.

GW

Void · 2017-02-08 13:33:21

Well, this is how I feel about it.
https://www.bing.com/images/search?view … roll+dolls

SpaceNut · 2017-02-08 20:31:29

Such a likeness to the president Trumps uncanny appearance....

SpaceNut · 2017-02-09 14:39:55

The continence of the conflict of interest and of ethics....to which it seems the infection is on the rise...
Remember what is said matters....

Legal Experts: Conway Violated Ethics Rules in TV Endorsement of Ivanka Trump Brand

Multiple legal experts and former White House officials say that Kellyanne Conway's TV endorsement of the Ivanka Trump brand violated ethics rules governing executive branch employees

kbd512 · 2017-02-09 19:07:20

The White House ethics attorneys are President Obama's appointees, which means they're ideologically-driven people who will stop at nothing to harass President Trump. Multiple US Presidents have owned businesses while they were in office. CREW's argument for legal standing to file their frivolous lawsuit is that they have to divert resources to filing a lawsuit against President Trump that could be put to use filing other lawsuits. It's a laughably absurd claim.

It has not been proven in a court of law that President Trump's executive orders on immigration violate our Constitution. One liberal judge issuing a stay is not a legal ruling on whether or not the order was legal or constitutional. Foreigners have no constitutional right to travel to the US, period, irrespective of any claim to the contrary. People are free to make that claim, but legal precedent does not support that claim and it's been repeatedly rejected by our courts.

The Trump administration apologized for incompetently handing a video they'd not properly reviewed over to the press. I don't recall any such apology over the false narrative about a YouTube video being the cause of a terrorist attack on our embassy in Benghazi.

Some liberal media claimed that the Yemen raid was initiated to please the UAE government so that President Trump's company could build a golf course that he wanted to build in the UAE. The military claims the raid was planned under President Obama, but postponed so that it could be conducted on a moonless night. The next moonless night happened to fall after President Obama left office. I think I believe the DoD more than I believe ideologically motived liberal journalists.

Tom Kalbfus · 2017-02-10 00:51:19

By the standard the media treated Obama, none of this "muck" rises to newsworthy! I don't really care whether any of Trump's businesses are affected by Trump being President or not. I don't think Trump is doing any of this to make money for himself. Trump is already a billionaire, I believe he seeks fame rather than fortune, he is 70 years old you know, he has made plenty of money already, there is really nothing for him to do except retire after he is President, he's got enough money for him to live comfortably for the rest of his life and for all his children and his two ex-wives and wife to live comfortably for the rest of their lives. Trump, unlike other people, has no need to make money off of government service, and the amount he could make is rather paltry compared to the mount he already has! And really, conducting a military operation so he can build a golf course in Yemen? Get real! There are lots of places Trump could build a golf course, where he doesn't need a military operation to make the place safe. When Trump can influence trillions to spend, I don't think a golf course in some unstable part of the World would really hold much interest for him, it would be a great way to lose money though! People, as a general rule, don't typically like to risk death when they play golf!

louis · 2017-02-10 17:47:42

Not my business really being from the UK, but given our UK media are in full Anti-Trump mode...I must say I agree Tom. Most of the BS thrown at him is just wide of the target. Whether he has the skills and the temperament to be a good US President remains to be seen, but so far I don't see much wrong in him. There may be some situations though where he finds that business negotiation and international relations really aren't the same...sometimes international relations are more like personal relations and you can't just come in with an opening bluff. However, I feel he may understand that. We shall see.

Tom Kalbfus wrote:

By the standard the media treated Obama, none of this "muck" rises to newsworthy! I don't really care whether any of Trump's businesses are affected by Trump being President or not. I don't think Trump is doing any of this to make money for himself. Trump is already a billionaire, I believe he seeks fame rather than fortune, he is 70 years old you know, he has made plenty of money already, there is really nothing for him to do except retire after he is President, he's got enough money for him to live comfortably for the rest of his life and for all his children and his two ex-wives and wife to live comfortably for the rest of their lives. Trump, unlike other people, has no need to make money off of government service, and the amount he could make is rather paltry compared to the mount he already has! And really, conducting a military operation so he can build a golf course in Yemen? Get real! There are lots of places Trump could build a golf course, where he doesn't need a military operation to make the place safe. When Trump can influence trillions to spend, I don't think a golf course in some unstable part of the World would really hold much interest for him, it would be a great way to lose money though! People, as a general rule, don't typically like to risk death when they play golf!

Void · 2017-02-10 17:57:43

Louis and Tom,

I have read an article that indicates that the main issue going on is Trump is in connection with a crowd that wants to rebuild North America.
His opponents want to loot us yet again, and they are not happy about having their blood meal taken away.

This is perhaps supported by the fact that the UK seems to be on a path to greater independence. I don't think that globalization will completely go away, but mostly so. The UK may stand a chance to profit by being between the two parties. The North American entity, and the rest of the parts of the world that will remain somewhat functional.

So, it is the evil colonizers (Not the Brits this time), who are trying to subjugate North American/USA as a colony to exploit. They know that the demographics, and the existence of energy sources on the North American continent will make it strong relative to a falling world. Their objective was to get us hooked back on M.E. oil and periodic wars, but that looks likely to diminish.

That's how I see it. I have to say I don't really appreciate all the Trump bashing. Our republic is at stake. He most likely is not perfect, and he will gather a lot of "Piggies", to help him do what must be done, and some honorable people, but I will stand with him unless in the future I have some much greater reason not to.

Last edited by Void (2017-02-10 17:59:54)

SpaceNut · 2017-02-10 20:25:29

The rose colored glasses are getting very dark....pay to play....

http://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/jap … ns-n718881

With out approval of congress for such communications Flynn Discussed Sanctions With Russians Before Taking Office

Flynn's contacts with Sergey Kislyak, Russia's ambassador to the U.S., were initially seen by critics as a potential violation of a 1799 law called the Logan Act, which prohibits a private citizen from negotiating with a foreign power in a dispute with the United States. But that law has rarely if ever been cited in a prosecution

Top Fed Regulator to Resign in April, Setting Stage for Trump Shakeup

More Trump follower garbage Black Players Harassed With Racist Chants at 'Hick Night'

Remember this is a gift that will strike back....
Russia Considers Returning Snowden to U.S. to ‘Curry Favor’ With Trump
So it was not ok to give him back under Obama but now its ok under Trump to try and appease by giving him back now....to drop sanctions.....

This going to be a bumpy 4 years if it lasts that long....
In the Trump era, congressional town halls are packed with protesters

as this has not gone away either Russian dossier on Trump gaining credibility with law enforcement

Void · 2017-02-10 21:21:30

My opinion.

Yes, maybe they will get Trump down. I am not expecting it.

However, the world you know is going to go away. He was/is just a possible facilitator.

Do I know something special?

Perhaps not, if you follow "The fourth turning", and the thinking of Peter Zeihan, it is all suggested pretty well.

As for Trump, he either is or is not real. I intend to give him lots of chances.

Tom Kalbfus · 2017-02-11 12:51:11

SpaceNut wrote:

The rose colored glasses are getting very dark....pay to play....
http://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/jap … ns-n718881
With out approval of congress for such communications Flynn Discussed Sanctions With Russians Before Taking Office
Flynn's contacts with Sergey Kislyak, Russia's ambassador to the U.S., were initially seen by critics as a potential violation of a 1799 law called the Logan Act, which prohibits a private citizen from negotiating with a foreign power in a dispute with the United States. But that law has rarely if ever been cited in a prosecution
Top Fed Regulator to Resign in April, Setting Stage for Trump Shakeup
More Trump follower garbage Black Players Harassed With Racist Chants at 'Hick Night'
Remember this is a gift that will strike back....
Russia Considers Returning Snowden to U.S. to ‘Curry Favor’ With Trump
So it was not ok to give him back under Obama but now its ok under Trump to try and appease by giving him back now....to drop sanctions.....
This going to be a bumpy 4 years if it lasts that long....
In the Trump era, congressional town halls are packed with protesters
as this has not gone away either Russian dossier on Trump gaining credibility with law enforcement

Just to make one thing clear, Putin is the Junior partner in this, not Trump. Donald Trump, as the President of the United States is the most powerful man on the planet, and unlike Obama, he is going to wield it, not "lead from behind!" Putin can either get on the right side of history or get on the wrong side of history! Putin can be partners with Iran or us, the Taliban or us, not both! Russia is a Christian country, not a Muslim Country. Are Russia's friends the bearded maniacs who murdered a bunch of Russians in movie theaters and shopping malls in Russia, or are they us? Russia can attack countries like Georgia, and Ukraine with largely Christian populations, or it can g after Iran, and Iran has a big chunk or real estate, lots of warm water ports, things Russia would like, more importantly Russia won't get into conflict with us if it invades Iran! Maybe we can show Putin a way forward, a way to make Russia great again without getting into conflict with NATO, and we can eliminate one hostile developing nuclear power in the bargain. I don't see why the United States and Russia can't be allies, do you? I say we can buy off Ukraine by giving them nukes in return for not trying to get their territory stolen by the Russians back, then we can have peace on the European front and can concentrate on that troublesome Middle East!

Void · 2017-02-11 15:00:38

I can feel all the love from the rest of the membership.

I am afraid I will have to disappoint you Tom, and tell you parts of what I really think.

The Russians are not likely to see Iran exactly the way some of the leadership in this country do.

1) For one thing, they were sent supplies through Iran during WWII. Some at least from the USA. With the unbalanced nature of Nato, trying to be a new Roman Empire, and yet pushing towards Russia in the west of Russia, you can be certain that the Russians have looked at the value of having somewhat acceptable relationships with Iran, just in case. The areas of Nato which resemble the western Roman empire have a habit of doing bad things to Russia, and it's predecessor in some ways, the Byzantine Empire (Complete betrayal). Don't expect trust. Russian has had to spank them and send them back home repeatedly.

2) For the sake of the Petro Dollar, and to fuel our alliances during the Cold War, we had to do Saudi Arabia's bidding, although not all of what we did was Saudi Arabia's fault. However, we did do very bad things to the Iranians. They are likely not the forgiving types. Eye for an Eye and so on.

3) We really should not try to have a dog in this fight, except to try to prevent nuclear exchanges for the sake of the world. We have Shale Oil, Shale Gas, in abundance, other resources, and the Canadians find it convenient to ship their oil through our country and if need be to sell their oil to us.

4) Back to the Russians. If America withdraws from Afghanistan, then Russia needs China and Iran as allies. For Religious, Military, and Commercial reasons. The Iranian Shia are regarded by some extreme Suni's as heretics who may and should be slaughtered. The Russians will be in a similar boat, if the murders get the upper hand. So one cannot expect the Russians to forgo a potential ally that they can likely count on in that situation. They would be stupid to do that.

As for the Ukraine, I have indicated to you before that one side of that "Country" identifies with the Polish historical cause, and the other with the Russian historical cause. They both believe in themselves. The Russians think of the Poles as unreliable Slavs who kiss the wests back end.

The Poles are Catholic, because Rome will intervene on their behalf. However, it is most unwise to not understand the Russian position. The Romans and West Europeans attacked Byzantium when it needed help, in this endless desire to be the "Universal" entity. In doing so they finished it off and helped the Turks to finish their conquest. Russia is one of the more significant inheritors of the Byzantine heritage.

So by taking a clear side for the Poles against the Russians, you are betraying Russia, and by the way betraying the United States, which is not a Roman Latin Empire, but also has been harassed culturally by those said entities. From the American perspective, although we can see sorry for the Polish cause if we use myopic vision, a broader vision will reveal that if we take one side to much then we betray the USA and it's people.

As for the Crimea, I cannot for my life understand why our previous leadership was so stupid to force the Russia to "Las Vegas". Idiots!
Of course the Russians would take the chance. And once they had to play the gamble and it worked out to their favor, how in the world would you ever get them to go back. It is a done deal.

Others should head such warnings. Push us to "Las Vegas", and we might make you regret it for a long time.

There is another world. Many of you don't understand it. Many of you have been leveraging your positions, and you are quite vulnerable. I would advise stopping it.

That other world is rising. The world of the Pseudo Roman Empire is falling. I would not invest in failure if I were you.

Last edited by Void (2017-02-11 15:25:02)

Tom Kalbfus · 2017-02-11 22:59:07

Void wrote:

I can feel all the love from the rest of the membership.
I am afraid I will have to disappoint you Tom, and tell you parts of what I really think.
The Russians are not likely to see Iran exactly the way some of the leadership in this country do.
1) For one thing, they were sent supplies through Iran during WWII. Some at least from the USA. With the unbalanced nature of Nato, trying to be a new Roman Empire, and yet pushing towards Russia in the west of Russia, you can be certain that the Russians have looked at the value of having somewhat acceptable relationships with Iran, just in case. The areas of Nato which resemble the western Roman empire have a habit of doing bad things to Russia, and it's predecessor in some ways, the Byzantine Empire (Complete betrayal). Don't expect trust. Russian has had to spank them and send them back home repeatedly.

These are the states of the Russian Federation. If Russia wants to be a Superpower again, they can join with the United States, and subject all of their states and citizens to the US Constitution as US citizens, then Russia can grow and develop without the instability introduced by its government. Nostrodamus predicted this by the way. I think Russia would have a better future with us, than with some crazed bearded savages from Iran! Iran is a loser, it has a pathetic government that is keeping it poor and backwards. Now does Russia want to be a first world country or a third world one? Russia needs some help with its Democracy, and I can't think of a better way to get it started that for them to live under our constitution, because it works so much better than theirs!

2) For the sake of the Petro Dollar, and to fuel our alliances during the Cold War, we had to do Saudi Arabia's bidding, although not all of what we did was Saudi Arabia's fault. However, we did do very bad things to the Iranians. They are likely not the forgiving types. Eye for an Eye and so on.

Saudi Arabia is a rich third world country, it doesn't produce its own wealth, it imports it in exchange for crude oil. Real wealth comes from people, not the ground! Iran wants to go to war with the United States, if it does so, it will be destroyed! So how badly does Russia want o start World War III with us? By partnering with a country of fanatical savages that want to go to war, and don't mind being destroyed in the process, cause they believe in their version of God and the Afterlife, I don't see how it helps Russia to partner with these lunatics, do you? Iran gets into a war with the United States, the US retaliated against Iran by nuking their cities, and then it retaliates against Russia for helping them to get nukes. The United States is pretty much gone except for its nuclear retaliation in this scenario, if it perceives a Russian hand in it, Russia is not going to escape unharmed, and Iran may be just too fanatical to be deterred by our nukes. I don't think Russia wants to die in a nuclear war, do you? I think Russia is better off on the same side as the US than on opposing sides, if you disagree, please tell me how pointing nuke at the US and the US pointing nukes at them help them? Russia and the US are both European Christian societies, we shouldn't be enemies, unless that is you know how to win World War III!

3) We really should not try to have a dog in this fight, except to try to prevent nuclear exchanges for the sake of the world. We have Shale Oil, Shale Gas, in abundance, other resources, and the Canadians find it convenient to ship their oil through our country and if need be to sell their oil to us.
4) Back to the Russians. If America withdraws from Afghanistan, then Russia needs China and Iran as allies.

Why? Russia has nothing in common with them, they aren't Muslim and they aren't Chinese! the Chinese are a different race, while the Russians mostly look like us! You think two Caucasian races should be pointing nukes at each other ready to wipe each other out to make room for the Chinese and Muslims? I don't think so!

For Religious, Military, and Commercial reasons. The Iranian Shia are regarded by some extreme Suni's as heretics who may and should be slaughtered. The Russians will be in a similar boat, if the murders get the upper hand. So one cannot expect the Russians to forgo a potential ally that they can likely count on in that situation. They would be stupid to do that.

Muslims don't make good allies, they suck, as Any Russian who fought in the Afghan War in the 1980s can attest, they pretend to be your allies and then they stab you in the back, and it doesn't matter if they are Sunnis or Shiites, their differences are inconsequential to us, both have killed Americans and both practice terrorism! Russia has been a victim of both factions as well, starting with Genghis Khan!

As for the Ukraine, I have indicated to you before that one side of that "Country" identifies with the Polish historical cause, and the other with the Russian historical cause. They both believe in themselves. The Russians think of the Poles as unreliable Slavs who kiss the wests back end.

The Russians are part of the West, look at their round blue eyes if you don't believe me! Denying that they are part of the West is stupid and flies in the face of all facts! What is more important, a thousand years of Russian history or Karl Marx, a crackpot who's economic theories never worked for Russia or anyone else? Russia needs to move out from this idiot's shadow that has brought them nothing but suffering and oppression! A free Russia is in Russia's interest I think, not some third world tin pot dictator. Russia can really only be great once it gets rid of its tyrants, all of them!

The Poles are Catholic, because Rome will intervene on their behalf. However, it is most unwise to not understand the Russian position. The Romans and West Europeans attacked Byzantium when it needed help, in this endless desire to be the "Universal" entity. In doing so they finished it off and helped the Turks to finish their conquest. Russia is one of the more significant inheritors of the Byzantine heritage.

And what happened to the great city of Constantinople and Byzantium? it was sacked by the Turks, and the Turks still occupy the place!

So by taking a clear side for the Poles against the Russians, you are betraying Russia, and by the way betraying the United States, which is not a Roman Latin Empire, but also has been harassed culturally by those said entities. From the American perspective, although we can see sorry for the Polish cause if we use myopic vision, a broader vision will reveal that if we take one side to much then we betray the USA and it's people.

Poland and Russia are both Western Christian countries, they should not be enemies, especially when the Muslim world is at war with them!

As for the Crimea, I cannot for my life understand why our previous leadership was so stupid to force the Russia to "Las Vegas". Idiots!
Of course the Russians would take the chance. And once they had to play the gamble and it worked out to their favor, how in the world would you ever get them to go back. It is a done deal.

The Soviet Union should never have been, it was an interruption of the proper course of Russian history. the Soviet Union was ruled by a foreigner from Georgia, this Stalin. Stalin killed millions of Russians! What happened under Stalin's Empire was that some land was transferred from Russia to Ukraine, and Putin was trying to get it back. A good compromise would be for Russia to keep the land it currently has in exchange for Ukraine getting nukes to stabilize its current border with Russia, if there are still "Ukrainians" that want to be Russians after that, they can move across that border, since that border is not going to move across them!

Others should head such warnings. Push us to "Las Vegas", and we might make you regret it for a long time.

I don't get this "Los Vegas" reference, what are you trying to tell me, that Russians are bad Poker players?

There is another world. Many of you don't understand it. Many of you have been leveraging your positions, and you are quite vulnerable. I would advise stopping it.
That other world is rising. The world of the Pseudo Roman Empire is falling. I would not invest in failure if I were you.

Does not look that way from where I'm sitting. The Obama era is over, the US will recover, it made a mistake to trust him as their president, but the US is a strong country, the left has been exposed, they are out of power, and the Trump will weed the remainder out of the unelected parts of the government. I think this country is due for a new political alignment beside the one of Democrats and Republicans. the seeds of the new political alignment is within the Republican Party itself, there are factions within that party that absent competition from the Democrats, will develop into two new parties, ones that do not delude themselves with their own propaganda the way the Democrats have. We need to deal with the real world if we are to make real progress.

Void · 2017-02-11 23:24:53

I will only answer in a limited fashion.

The Arabs themselves said "The Arab has the power of the tongue, the Chin, the power of the Hand, and the Frank the power of the Mind.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Franks
So Western Europeans, and not the Roman Empire. There has been some trouble where it has become fashionable to try to suppose that "Western" (Ha Ha) "Civilization" is based on Greece and Roman Heritage. They did have their influences, but that is not the west.
And the so called "Franks" had a lot to do with what we define as "European" at this time.

My own personal theory is that fallen civilizations generate a type of people I call the VV's, at least as per our experience with the Middle East, and the East Med, and to some extent penetrations into what might be considered adjacent areas to the "West".

I call them "VV's" because it stands for Verbal and Violent. Each of the Abrahamic Religions begins with a special people who apparently have the right to do violence to other peoples based on verbalizations in ancient texts. (Typically written by that special people! )

*Note that in the case of at least some understandings of the existence of the central figure of the New Testament books, instead of a genetic path to being the "Chosen", it is also allowed to become so, but you must keep humility. This is different than some others.

When I was a boy in school we were given teachings that indicated that the Arabs/Islam was so brilliant in history, and the Europeans were so primitive and stupid.

My own subsequent readings, indicate that the Arab role has been to be a rent holder. They themselves did little to invent/create the world. They just butchered peoples and welded them into an empire. When they had murdered enough of their subjugated peoples, and also over expressed their own limited genetic capabilities, their "Civilization" dropped into decay. Now they are trying to get a fresh crop of servant peoples, but we are much much more treacherous than the previous victims in history. And we are inventive.

It is typical however of the VV's to borrow technology, mostly to butcher other peoples. When they conquer, they erase the real history. You can see that going on in Syria even right now. They are also almost always allowed to lie to infidels. So sure, ask them "Are you peaceful?" They will tell you that they are. And they will even be peaceful, until they see their chance. Then they will rape your culture, and their next move since they are a very "Literate" people, is they will rewrite history, to hide their tracks.

The Iranians are not Arabs, although they were raped by the Arabs. Their primary heritage in history was Persian.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Persian_people
They were also assaulted by the Mongols at some point, with lots of damage from that.
They are not a stupid people. In some cases they could be useful to our purposes. Otherwise, especially because of our history with them in the 20th and now 21st century, they can be treacherous. I seldom trust what I see. A Farce. Farci?
http://www.farsinet.com/farsi/

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indo-European_languages

Present-day native distribution of Indo-European languages, within their homeland of Eurasia:
  Albanian
  Armenian
  Balto-Slavic (Baltic)
  Balto-Slavic (Slavic)
  Celtic
  Germanic
  Hellenic (Greek)
  Indo-Iranian (Indo-Aryan, Iranian, and Nuristani)
  Italic (Romance)

Non-Indo-European languages (Grey)
Dotted/striped areas indicate where multilingualism is common

The core of the Indo-European language group origination is the Steps of Central Asia (Around Russia)
Some of these peoples migrated to the area we now call "Europe". Some migrated to the "Blue" area on the map. Indo-Aryan.

That is a very simplified story of how "Europeans" and their distant siblings "Indo-Aryan" came to be. For instance you will see that the Finlanders as we called them don't speak a European language. They are however largely European by our typical analysis. However some of them have very cute slanty eyes. Some of them even look like Mongols. Nice people by in large, stand-offish though. Highly intelligent.

The "Indo-Aryans" have darker skins than Europeans, and perhaps a different phenotype outer appearance in many cases. This is due to divergent history, and a more tropical sun selecting against lighter skins when you work in the farm fields.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phenotype

Genetically however they are closer to Europeans than they might appear.

So, beyond the European, I would be looking for a people we could more reasonably understand among the Indo-Aryans, and to a degree, I think that this is what can be found.

Less VV's.

As for the Chin, according the historical Arabs, they have the power of the Hand. That could be dangerous or useful. I always look for the useful.

Finally, there is no direct reason why we should seek war with the Iranians, unless they force it. Even then we should consider that they have little of value we want. We are not going to plunder and occupy them. We have plenty in North America.

As for Europe and the Indo-Aryans, we can do what is convenient to promote values we like with them. One has to be careful not to make that backfire however.

Goodnight.

Last edited by Void (2017-02-12 00:15:17)

Tom Kalbfus · 2017-02-12 12:39:05

I just don't see a reason we should be in conflict with the Russians, and we need to convince he Russians that it is not in their best interest to be in conflict with us! One way to convince they is to argue that there are other cultures waiting in the wings to descend on our corpses and plunder our riches if we manage to kill ourselves off in a pointless nuclear war. Now if China thinks Russia is going to go to War with what they call "the West", then the Chinese may see it in their interests to help the Russians out, and then when there is a nuclear war that does not include them, they can just watch Russia, the United States, and Europe nuke each other, and they wait until the dust settles and all the survivors have finished dying, then they can move their one billion plus people onto all that new land that the Caucasian peoples have so vacated with their nice convenient nuclear war amongst themselves. Have the Russians picture this, hordes of Chinese moving in on the radioactive ruins of Moscow, to build new condominiums for their citizens. If Russians don't want that to happen, then they should be on our side.

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