Solar induced hydrocarbon goop on Mars.

Void · 2015-11-09 12:09:00

In the past I have read that under the current conditions of Mars, such goop should be being created. However it's lack is perhaps due to an oxidation effect in the soil?

Anyway in reading greenhouse plans, primarily from RobertDyck, I have seen that there are types of "Plastic" greenhouse materials which endure U.V. rather well, but also do not block it.

I am thinking that the creation of Abiotic hydrocarbons inside of those might be possible. If you inflated them with CO2, and kept the Relative Humidity high, perhaps it would create useful materials. And, since we would not be intending to sustain the life of organisms with artificial pressurization, the pressures could be kept rather low, reducing the tensile loads on such "Balloons".

Perhaps catalyst methods could be involved as well to promote the objective.

Void · 2015-11-14 17:04:29

Photolysis on the surface of planets:
http://www.nature.com/articles/srep13977
So, here is a catalist
The search for habitable exoplanets in the Universe is actively ongoing in the field of astronomy. The biggest future milestone is to determine whether life exists on such habitable exoplanets. In that context, oxygen in the atmosphere has been considered strong evidence for the presence of photosynthetic organisms. In this paper, we show that a previously unconsidered photochemical mechanism by titanium (IV) oxide (titania) can produce abiotic oxygen from liquid water under near ultraviolet (NUV) lights on the surface of exoplanets. Titania works as a photocatalyst to dissociate liquid water in this process. This mechanism offers a different source of a possibility of abiotic oxygen in atmospheres of exoplanets from previously considered photodissociation of water vapor in upper atmospheres by extreme ultraviolet (XUV) light. Our order-of-magnitude estimation shows that possible amounts of oxygen produced by this abiotic mechanism can be comparable with or even more than that in the atmosphere of the current Earth, depending on the amount of active surface area for this mechanism. We conclude that titania may act as a potential source of false signs of life on habitable exoplanets.

Point being if you have an envelop of plastic, that endures U.V. but lets it through into the interior of the envelop, yes without sunblock that is bad for plants and for you, but if your objective might be to produce variations of Hydrogen and Oxygen, then using Titanium Oxide (Titania), maybe good.

Your envelop does not have to be very pressurized, just add some water vapor. In fact I suppose that during certain times of the day if temps are above freezing at the triple point of water it can be entirely filled with water vapor. Or you might choose to have another gas present such as CO2 or N2 as it might suit your purposes.

SpaceNut · 2015-11-15 19:43:04

I have seen Graphene used as a method to contain Hydrogen in a simular bunky ball arrangement of atoms...

We did cover the Solar electrolysis via catalysts in the other topic "The end of the line for Mars Terraforming" as we have suggested to make use of....

We need an atmospher that we can breath that is not toxic to those that would use Mars as home and to get there is the issue as we need an Ozone layer simular to Earths....
The ozone layer or region is a concentration of ozone molecule (O3) that sits at an altitude of about 10-50 kilometers, with a maximum concentration in the stratosphere at an altitude of approximately 25 kilometers.
We also need lots of Nitrogen in the air and will need to bring buffer gasses to replace those that are lost from the habitat and greenhouse so why no bring it in the form of Ammonia NH3 or as (NH4+) Ammonium or in ammonium chloride, and ammonium nitrate which can be broken down.....

louis · 2015-11-15 20:18:19

I've had a similar thought (it seems) in the past.

What if you erected continuous plastic sheeting at say a height of six feet, supported on Mars rock pillars. The plastic sheeting would need to be assembled from large plastic sheets that could perhaps be heat-bonded at the joins...so something like polytunnel plastic. I am thinking of a very large area being covered - perhaps 4 square kilometres.

And then, what if you tried to create a natural pressure gradient around the boundary so there was be a gradual escape of gas as your pressurised artificial atmosphere leaked out at the boundaries - this might be accomplished by creations of loose soil borders where the plastic is weighted down with rock, so the air has an escape route, but the escape route is a slow one.

Could that work? If it could, it might create large areas for agriculture that could be cheaply assembled from either imported plastic sheeting or ISRU plastic.

Void wrote:

In the past I have read that under the current conditions of Mars, such goop should be being created. However it's lack is perhaps due to an oxidation effect in the soil?
Anyway in reading greenhouse plans, primarily from RobertDyck, I have seen that there are types of "Plastic" greenhouse materials which endure U.V. rather well, but also do not block it.
I am thinking that the creation of Abiotic hydrocarbons inside of those might be possible. If you inflated them with CO2, and kept the Relative Humidity high, perhaps it would create useful materials. And, since we would not be intending to sustain the life of organisms with artificial pressurization, the pressures could be kept rather low, reducing the tensile loads on such "Balloons".
Perhaps catalyst methods could be involved as well to promote the objective.

Void · 2015-11-15 21:19:46

Spacenut said:

I have seen Graphene used as a method to contain Hydrogen in a simular bunky ball arrangement of atoms...
We did cover the Solar electrolysis via catalysts in the other topic "The end of the line for Mars Terraforming" as we have suggested to make use of....
We need an atmospher that we can breath that is not toxic to those that would use Mars as home and to get there is the issue as we need an Ozone layer simular to Earths....
The ozone layer or region is a concentration of ozone molecule (O3) that sits at an altitude of about 10-50 kilometers, with a maximum concentration in the stratosphere at an altitude of approximately 25 kilometers.
We also need lots of Nitrogen in the air and will need to bring buffer gasses to replace those that are lost from the habitat and greenhouse so why no bring it in the form of Ammonia NH3 or as (NH4+) Ammonium or in ammonium chloride, and ammonium nitrate which can be broken down.....

I will leave the terraforming issues for the terraforming section.

While I originally specified the production of Hydrocarbon Goop, for the moment I would like to bypass that and specify the splitting of H20 into Hydrogen and Oxygen, by UV sunlight. Possibly Titania would be used as a catalyst.
Catalyst Reference:
http://www.technologyreview.com/news/40 … -hydrogen/

Cheap Hydrogen
A new process uses sunlight and a nanostructured catalyst to inexpensively and efficiently generate hydrogen for fuel.
By Kevin Bullis on January 31, 2008
Solar gases: A parabolic trough can focus sunlight on nanostructured titania, improving the efficiency of a new system for generating hydrogen by splitting water.
Nanoptek, a startup based in Maynard, MA, has developed a new way to make hydrogen from water using solar energy. The company says that its process is cheap enough to compete with the cheapest approaches used now, which strip hydrogen from natural gas, and it has the further advantage of releasing no carbon dioxide.
Nanoptek, which has been developing the new technology in part with grants from NASA and the Department of Energy (DOE), recently completed its first venture-capital round, raising $4.7 million that it will use to install its first pilot plant. The technology uses titania, a cheap and abundant material, to capture energy from sunlight. The absorbed energy releases electrons, which split water to make hydrogen. Other researchers have used titania to split water in the past, but Nanoptek researchers found a way to modify titania to absorb more sunlight, which makes the process much cheaper and more efficient, says John Guerra, the company’s founder and CEO.
Researchers have known since the 1970s that titania can catalyze reactions that split water. But while titania is a good material because it’s cheap and doesn’t degrade in water, it only absorbs ultraviolet light, which represents a small fraction of the energy in sunlight. Other researchers have tried to increase the amount of sunlight absorbed by pairing titania with dyes or dopants, but dyes aren’t nearly as durable as titania, and dopants haven’t produced efficient systems, says John Turner, who develops hydrogen generation technologies at the National Renewable Energy Laboratory (NREL), in Golden, CO.
Nanoptek’s approach uses insights from the semiconductor industry to make titania absorb more sunlight. Guerra says that chip makers have long known that straining a material so that its atoms are slightly pressed together or pulled apart alters the material’s electronic properties. He found that depositing a coating of titania on dome-like nanostructures caused the atoms to be pulled apart. “When you pull the atoms apart, less energy is required to knock the electrons out of orbit,” he says. “That means you can use light with lower energy–which means visible light” rather than just ultraviolet light.
The strain on the atoms also affects the way that electrons move through the material. Too much strain, and the electrons tend to be reabsorbed by the material before they split water. Guerra says that the company has had to find a balance between absorbing more sunlight and allowing the electrons to move freely out of the material. Nanoptek has also developed cheaper ways to manufacture the nanostructured materials. Initially, the company used DVD manufacturing processes, but it has since moved on to a still-cheaper proprietary process.

So now note the highlighted text above, on Mars, UV is plentiful, or at least until a Ozone layer is formed. An Ozone later latter on will likely be weak, and it is not likely to exist for the first say 25 years I should think, so this method to produce Hydrogen and by Default Oxygen, should be very suitable to life support on Mars, before and due to the invention above even after the production of an Ozone layer.

They do not specify how they separate the Hydrogen and Oxygen, but I presume they do, otherwise it would go BOOM!

Here is Graphine and Boron which when subjected to an appropriate electrical treatment is claimed to be able to sieve Hydrogen out of moist air. I would say that if it can work for that it could work to extract the Hydrogen, split by the Titania catalyst and U.V.

https://fuelcellsworks.com/news/graphen … e-spectrum
I know you are busy people with important work to do, but I suggest you read this entire quote in its entirety:

Graphene-based Fuel Cell Membrane Could Extract Hydrogen Directly from Air - IEEE Spectrum
author Added by FuelCellsWorks, October 21, 2015
In research out of the University of Manchester in the UK led by Nobel Laureate Andre Geim, it has been shown that the one-atom-thick materialsgraphene and hexagonal boron nitride (hBN), once thought to be impermeable, allow protons to pass through them. The result, the Manchester researchers believe, will be more efficient fuel cells and the simplification of the heretofore difficult process of separating hydrogen gas for use as fuel in fuel cells.
This latest development alters the understanding of one of the key properties of graphene: that it is impermeable to all gases and liquids. Even an atom as small as hydrogen would need billions of years for it to pass through the dense electronic cloud of graphene. In fact, it is this impermeability that has made it attractive for use in gas separation membranes.
But as Geim and his colleagues discovered, in research that was published in the journal Nature, monolayers of graphene and boron nitride are highly permeable to thermal protons under ambient conditions. So hydrogen atoms stripped of their electrons could pass right through the one-atom-thick materials.
The surprising discovery that protons could breach these materials means that that they could be used in proton-conducting membranes (also known as proton exchange membranes), which are central to the functioning of fuel cells. Fuel cells operate through chemical reactions involving hydrogen fuel and oxygen, with the result being electrical energy. The membranes used in the fuel cells are impermeable to oxygen and hydrogen but allow for the passage of protons.
Another, even more remarkable prospect highlighted by this discovery is that these one-atom-thick materials could be used to extract hydrogen from a humid atmosphere. This could be a huge bend in the road that points us towards the so-called hydrogen economy.
One of the inconvenient truths about fuel cells for powering automobiles is that it is extremely costly and energy intensive to isolate hydrogen gas. The main push in nanomaterials for hydrogen gas separation has been artificial photosynthesis in which sunlight rather than electricity is used to split the hydrogen from a water molecule. In fact, another two-dimensional material, molybdenum sulfide (MoS2), has been used as a somewhat effective catalyst for producing hydrogen gas in a solar water-splitting process.
But what Geim and his colleagues are suggesting with this latest research stands this paradigm on its head. It is conceivable, based on this research, that hydrogen production could be combined with the fuel cell itself to make what would amount to a mobile electric generator fueled simply by hydrogen present in air.

Louis Said:

I've had a similar thought (it seems) in the past.
What if you erected continuous plastic sheeting at say a height of six feet, supported on Mars rock pillars. The plastic sheeting would need to be assembled from large plastic sheets that could perhaps be heat-bonded at the joins...so something like polytunnel plastic. I am thinking of a very large area being covered - perhaps 4 square kilometres.
And then, what if you tried to create a natural pressure gradient around the boundary so there was be a gradual escape of gas as your pressurised artificial atmosphere leaked out at the boundaries - this might be accomplished by creations of loose soil borders where the plastic is weighted down with rock, so the air has an escape route, but the escape route is a slow one.
Could that work? If it could, it might create large areas for agriculture that could be cheaply assembled from either imported plastic sheeting or ISRU plastic.

Void wrote:
In the past I have read that under the current conditions of Mars, such goop should be being created. However it's lack is perhaps due to an oxidation effect in the soil?
Anyway in reading greenhouse plans, primarily from RobertDyck, I have seen that there are types of "Plastic" greenhouse materials which endure U.V. rather well, but also do not block it.
I am thinking that the creation of Abiotic hydrocarbons inside of those might be possible. If you inflated them with CO2, and kept the Relative Humidity high, perhaps it would create useful materials. And, since we would not be intending to sustain the life of organisms with artificial pressurization, the pressures could be kept rather low, reducing the tensile loads on such "Balloons".
Perhaps catalyst methods could be involved as well to promote the objective.

I like the design, but I do not intend to involve agriculture directly here. I want an abiotic pathway to organics. In this case I have reduced the scope to the splitting of H20.

The pressure in your tent might therefore be at Martian outside ambient pressure. However the atmospheric mixture inside would be manipulated.

To start with I would try filling it with Argon. During the day Water Vapor would also be injected. The ceramic supports and floors could be coated with Titania.

At night any water vapor would be expected to freeze. This would reduce the gas volume inside the tent, so you would want the tent to be able to flex (Change it's volume) to accommodate that. During the day, ice retained from the previous day would vaporize and expand the tent, and more water could be added to the volume of the tent as desired.

Hydrogen would be extracted by some means, perhaps by the process I previously mentioned. How you would get the Oxygen out, might be another matter to be developed.

I am hoping that Mr RobertDyck will confirm that there are plastic films that can endure U.V. and will allow the U.V. to pass through.

I think this might be one:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ETFE

If this is possible for splitting H2O, it may also be possible to involve CO2 directly, but I wanted to focus on H2O, to confirm that it was possible first before causing the proposed process to get even more complicated.

So it is a solar chemical power system.

It could also feed a plastics industry, and Chemosynthetic based agriculture methods.

Last edited by Void (2015-11-15 22:03:15)

Void · 2015-11-16 09:39:00

I think this one could be really important, so I am going to push on.

While I would want to try many designs, including the design of Lewis, I can also propose other designs.

We will want to immobilize the sand dunes. Antius in another thread has pointed out that should a terraforming method provide an increased atmosphere for Mars, one potential bad side effect would be a dust storm problem, and high wind forces.

To address these issues, I suggest using what I perceive as an oriental method, eastern method of turning an enemy's force against them.
(Anyway that is how I perceive it, true or not).

The problem items here could include Dust Storms, and Wind Loads. The objective is to satisfy life support needs, and to do that use the enemy dust/sand dunes to help provide the means, while reducing the negative potentials of dust/sand storms and excessive wind loads.

So, among things that have been suggested to do with dust/sand dunes are:
-Extract Metals if any.
-Create Ceramic Objects.

The Martian settlers will have a need for only so much metal from sand dunes (If any). And the amount of ceramic materials you could create from sand dunes similarly would be excessive. I don't know how many bowls and bricks the settlers might need.

So, I propose Pyramids that will 1) Isolate sand and dust from the winds, 2) Support a transparent plastic film above them, 3) Serve as wind breaks, 4) Serve as windmill towers, 5) Serve as targets for heliostat reflectors, 6) Retain heat at night for use to provide life support assistance to humans and their other built structures. 7) Serve as a abiotic source of biological chemicals such as H2, O2, CH4, and so on.

In order to avoid disagreement here about this being a terraform method, and so inappropriate to this topic, I will say that it comes from the other direction. It is first a life support method, and then finally when all the dust/sand dunes have been immobilized, and utilized, it is also a fully formed terraform method.

So as a general scheme, I will first define a pyramid to deal with dust/sand dunes as having some qualities of a tower, and some qualities of a platform. A manufactured hill, where possibly the components will include;
1) Duct Work.
2) Fill.
3) A hardened exterior.

For these pyramids I will specify the further inclusion a catalyst coating on the outside of the #3 hardened exterior.
and over that a optimally transparent and durable glaze, perhaps of a "Plastic".
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ETFE

The devices will function differently under current atmospheric pressure and solar flux conditions than they might later, when air pressure is higher, and perhaps an Ozone layer is partially blocking the U.V. flux.

The #1 duct work could allow the flow of air, but at this time, that would be ineffective, so if there is a desire to draw heat out, additional methods would need to be provided. Perhaps, plastic piping with pressurized fluids included into the ducts. The ducts then should be large enough for humans or their robots to pass through.

The purpose of the passage of air/piped fluids would be to extract heat at night, to perhaps keep greenhouses or habitats warm.

The pyramids should be constructed so that when the atmospheric pressure rises high enough of Mars, windmills can be installed on the pyramid heights.

It should be obvious that sunlight hitting the pyramid will heat it. Further, a transparent glaze over it will to some degree provide a greenhouse effect, increasing heat retention.

However, since a Pyramid has aspects of a tower, I also suggest turning it into a solar power tower, by using reflective heliostats around the pyramid.

This will allow all faces North, South, East, West to absorb heat.

While the heat function is running, also running can be an abiotic source of biochemical, created in part by the use of catalysts coating the surfaces of the pyramid. As an example water vapor for instance could be injected under the transparent glaze, and I would expect the catalysts to then facilitate the splitting of it into Hydrogen and Oxygen variants. This relates to previous posts in this topic.

Types of Pyramid can be Egyptian or Aztec. I think I would prefer the Aztec. (Step Pyramid)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Step_pyramid
This one is not as well made as what I would intend, but it is a good visual aid I think.

images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQMbt5misnLviTyF9KJKhAVvGY4Uf9mC2JUM-_RgIpZxC5ITw3QaA

Pyramid Power
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eye_of_Providence

Bricks and tiles and loose dust/sand, will provide layers, as in a layer cake. Also this construction will provide more surface area for Catalyst to be coated on to. Further the horizontal surfaces might in fact be made as simple patio bricks, just enough to hold the dust/sand fill down, if the transparent glaze gets ripped off in winds.

I am not sure if perhaps the dust/sand fill could not be turned into simple compressed soil blocks.

So, in my opinion a very nice tool composed primarily of sand and ceramics, with a few other less bulky components added to amplify it's usefulness.

While many utilities can be provided by this tool, the one I most emphasize is the provision of a source of biological chemicals from an abiotic means.

Unlike greenhouses/Domes, does not matter if the surface of the pyramid is hot and dry, and irradiated by a flux of U.V. it should still provide very useful service to humans.

The chemicals will provide feed stock for organic chemistry, and could also support life in ice covered reservoirs. That then would be a source of plastics and food. And of course if you are splitting H20 or CO2, you should be able to get a massive source of Oxygen from this.

Filtering it from other gasses which might be toxic may be a problem, but I am sure that can be solved.

Last edited by Void (2015-11-16 17:41:00)

SpaceNut · 2015-11-16 19:00:33

Which brings me back to how much do we process before wasting the energy, equipment just to pile it all back up.....
I am not sure if you want the ability to make the plastics from insitu materials or if you are planning on importing all the equipment...

The plastic needs to be UV resistant,
http://plasticmentor.com/97/which-plast … uv-stable/

Which means we are emgineering the type that we need
http://www.regalplastic.com/engineered-plastics

Since we know that it will be used for greenhouse and application
http://www.greenhousemegastore.com/cate … astic-film

we are talking about a reinforced plastic to take the changes in pressure
http://www.greenhousemegastore.com/prod … astic-film

So we are talking about the selection process
http://www.eplastics.com/ePlastics_mate … _guide.pdf

So what type of machine do we need and what form must the materials feed into be in?
http://www.theplasmarket.com/EEP/plasti … achine.htm

http://www.plastemart.com/Used-Plastics-Machinery.asp

How much does it weigh, consume for power and is it scalable to fit the demand?

Void · 2015-11-16 20:52:26

Sir I choose to disagree, but I will attempt to harmonize with your position in order that we can seek to attain the maximum number of goals.

I could have used RobertDyck's advice on this as I did begin by borrowing on his work, and have only approximately the knowledge he has.
Even so, I will go out onto the think ice and take a chance.

At this time I state what I believe are notable wishes from various entities.
1) RobertDyck on last note indicated that the ability to manufacture glass will be of some significance. I have no reason to disagree. At least this is what I recall as true by my accounting.
2) You want plastic films which reject U.V. and can hold pressure. And I presume you don't want your people to die. I am not sure how good Santa's guarantees are on that. (Don't get mad). It is a worthy goal, but a costly one. If I understand correctly you want it manufactured insitu.
3) NASA seems to be working on collapsed expandable greenhouses which would be transported from Earth.
4) I want a film which will do no more than hold itself together rather well, and hold moisture in fairly well, and hold Hydrogen and Oxygen in long enough to collect them. It will have to deal with Martian winds, and dust storms, but not significant differential pressure.

*I also want to graduate from hunchback high, and to graduate to something higher than angry idiot.

th?&id=OIP.Maf84125032eb23a15998e4bfa027b2a2o0&w=300&h=300&c=0&pid=1.9&rs=0&p=0

I have been practicing:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R6MlHxAzLXA

th?&id=OIP.M1e50033130a09d26db01ace44e9eba4co0&w=300&h=300&c=0&pid=1.9&rs=0&p=0
th?&id=OIP.M66cad242fcf5c016876d0027cccc358bo0&w=300&h=300&c=0&pid=1.9&rs=0&p=0

B4:

th?id=OIP.Mce7c1c419c25ee52fb4463f5c051de69H0&w=89&h=105&c=7&rs=1&qlt=90&pid=3.1&rm=2

So, lets see if we can get there:
th?&id=HQ.215088046129&w=300&h=300&c=0&pid=1.9&rs=0&p=0

And avoid this:
th?&id=OIP.M97377f62d72339868a132ad838ad8dfaH0&w=300&h=300&c=0&pid=1.9&rs=0&p=0

th?&id=OIP.M538374b214f8e6b471e625ab2c9b6756H0&w=310&h=300&c=0&pid=1.9&rs=0&p=0

So, back to simulated verbal speaking;

http://www.architen.com/articles/etfe-t … bric-roof/

The advantages of its extraordinary tear resistance, long life and transparency to ultra-violet light off-set the higher initial costs and 20 years later it is still working well. It wasnt until the early 1980s, when German mechanical engineering student, Stefan Lehnert, investigated it in his quest for new and exciting sail materials, that its use was reconsidered.

http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/ar … 3X0501267X

Weighing approximately 1% the weight of glass, single ply ETFE membranes and ETFE cushions are both extremely light weight. This in turn enables a reduction of structural frame work and imposes significantly less dead load on the supporting structure. This reduced requirement for steelwork provides a big cost benefit for clients and is a key benefit when replacing glazing in old structures to meet current building codes e.g. railways station roofs.
High translucency ETFE foil cushions
Alongside its low weight, the major benefit of ETFE is its high translucency. Transmitting up to 95% of light, it is easy to see why it was chosen to construct the Eden Project Biomes in 2000 and more recently the Biota Aquarium in London (due to be completed in 2011) where the full spectrum of natural light and UV is essential to plant health.
When high levels of light and UV transmission are not required, ETFE also has the ability to be printed, or fritted, with a range of patterns. This fritting can be used to reduce solar gain while retaining transparency or alternatively can incorporate a white body tint to render the foil translucent. ETFE cushions can be lit internally with LED lighting to make them glow or projected onto externally like a giant cinema screen, creating dramatic results.

So, we shall see if this is my last post If so, then bye bye.

Last edited by Void (2015-11-16 21:45:32)

SpaceNut · 2015-11-16 21:41:31

Curiosity Mars Rover Heads Toward Active Dunes

mars-science-lab-curiosity-gale-crater-mount-sharp-bagnold-dunes-dune-field-desk-1920.jpg

The dark band in the lower portion of this Martian scene is part of the "Bagnold Dunes" dune field lining the northwestern edge of Mount Sharp, inside Gale Crater.
What distinguishes actual dunes from windblown ripples of sand or dust, like those found at several sites visited previously by Mars rovers, is that dunes form a downwind face steep enough for sand to slide down.
"We will use Curiosity to learn whether the wind is actually sorting the minerals in the dunes by how the wind transports particles of different grain size," Ehlmann said.
As an example, the dunes contain olivine, a mineral in dark volcanic rock that is one of the first altered into other minerals by water. If the Bagnold campaign finds that other mineral grains are sorted away from heavier olivine-rich grains by the wind's effects on dune sands, that could help researchers evaluate to what extent low and high amounts of olivine in some ancient sandstones could be caused by wind-sorting rather than differences in alteration by water.

Void · 2015-11-16 21:47:47

Nice Spacenut. I had more to say, but I think I was loosing my focus. Maybe later, if you want it. Nice dunes.

SpaceNut · 2015-11-16 22:19:59

ETFE is made with Florine and we are in luck

FIRST FLUORINE DETECTION ON MARS WITH CHEMCAM ON-BOARD MSL

EVOLUTION OF WATER ON MARS: MARS SAMPLE RETURN CONSIDERATIONS FOR HYDROGEN ISOTOPE MEASUREMENTS

So how do we process and concentrate it for use?

Void · 2015-11-17 14:52:08

Pretty, pretty, pretty, we want!

http://www.bing.com/images/search?q=flu … &FORM=IGRE

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fluorine

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Calcium_fluoride

I think we are going to want the Calcium also for various reasons, like limestone and steel?

So, as a boy I recall being in a tree fort, and a paper wasp for some reason decided to display what it does in front of me. The clamping mouthparts, extruding paper.

Similarly, I recommend that rather than an traditional maker with dancer rolls, and whatever, (Which could take up a whole big room for the web line), you consider a 3D printer with a exchangeable mouth, wasp mouth, to "Weld" extensions to your plastic web.

If you require fiber implants to give strength for a pressurized greenhouse, then that would only work if you "Weave" the web of your fiber implants as the wasp mouth welds. Otherwise you must perhaps make your mesh, and use an anvil, and from above hammer extruder.

Last edited by Void (2015-11-17 16:12:41)

SpaceNut · 2017-01-08 20:01:08

Lake Matthew Team - Cole wrote:

elderflower wrote:
Iron oxide can be reduced to metal using Hydrogen. Same goes for Nickel if necessary.
Rover inspection of metallic meteorites on the Martian surface indicated very little oxidation, so we may not need to reduce oxide ores for quite a long time. I'm supposing that meteorites may be easily located at or near the surface.
Hydrogen can be obtained by electrolysis of water which has been shown to be abundant in parts of Mars subsurface.
We will probably be using Iron and Nickel carbonyls for chemical vapour deposition forming in the early stages of settlement, before we turn to big furnaces with very high temperatures and massive power consumption.
CO will be a by product of Martian atmosphere separation.
Thanks. Well, I can see how the cooler direct reduction process (~1000 C) would use less electrical power than the smelter, but still a lot.
CO is a trace gas, but there are catalytic methods to reduce CO2 to CO, so one way or another efficient CO production should be feasible. Electrolysis is energy-intensive, though. The power needed to produce the H2 from electrolysis might negate the power saving of direct reduction. Or maybe some unassisted photoelectrochemical water splitting method will pan out in future, and slash the energy requirement for H2 production.

Void · 2017-01-08 20:16:52

Spacenut, I will respond in two ways. After that you are free to take the tiller on this of course.

My original post:

In the past I have read that under the current conditions of Mars, such goop should be being created. However it's lack is perhaps due to an oxidation effect in the soil?
Anyway in reading greenhouse plans, primarily from RobertDyck, I have seen that there are types of "Plastic" greenhouse materials which endure U.V. rather well, but also do not block it.
I am thinking that the creation of Abiotic hydrocarbons inside of those might be possible. If you inflated them with CO2, and kept the Relative Humidity high, perhaps it would create useful materials. And, since we would not be intending to sustain the life of organisms with artificial pressurization, the pressures could be kept rather low, reducing the tensile loads on such "Balloons".
Perhaps catalyst methods could be involved as well to promote the objective.

I mention catalyst methods:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Photocatalysis
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Titanium_ … tocatalyst
Quote: (I will include the entire related quote as in addition to photolysis, other useful properties exist which might be of interest for Mars).

Photocatalyst[edit]

TiO2 fibers and spirals
Titanium dioxide, particularly in the anatase form, is a photocatalyst under ultraviolet (UV) light. It has been reported that titanium dioxide, when doped with nitrogen ions or doped with metal oxide like tungsten trioxide, is also a photocatalyst under either visible or UV light.[42] The strong oxidative potential of the positive holes oxidizes water to create hydroxyl radicals. It can also oxidize oxygen or organic materials directly. Hence, in addition to its use as a pigment, titanium dioxide can be added to paints, cements, windows, tiles, or other products for its sterilizing, deodorizing and anti-fouling properties and is used as a hydrolysis catalyst. It is also used in dye-sensitized solar cells, which are a type of chemical solar cell (also known as a Graetzel cell).
The photocatalytic properties of titanium dioxide were discovered by Akira Fujishima in 1967[43] and published in 1972.[44] The process on the surface of the titanium dioxide was called the Honda-Fujishima effect (ja:本多-藤嶋効果).[43] Titanium dioxide, in thin film and nanoparticle form has potential for use in energy production: as a photocatalyst, it can carry out hydrolysis; i.e., break water into hydrogen and oxygen. With the hydrogen collected, it could be used as a fuel. The efficiency of this process can be greatly improved by doping the oxide with carbon.[45] Further efficiency and durability has been obtained by introducing disorder to the lattice structure of the surface layer of titanium dioxide nanocrystals, permitting infrared absorption.[46]
In 1995 Fujishima and his group discovered the superhydrophilicity phenomenon for titanium dioxide coated glass exposed to sun light.[43] This resulted in the development of self-cleaning glass and anti-fogging coatings.
TiO2 incorporated into outdoor building materials, such as paving stones in noxer blocks[47] or paints, can substantially reduce concentrations of airborne pollutants such as volatile organic compounds and nitrogen oxides.[48]
A photocatalytic cement that uses titanium dioxide as a primary component, produced by Italcementi Group, was included in Time's Top 50 Inventions of 2008.[49]
Attempts have been made to photocatalytically mineralize pollutants (to convert into CO2 and H2O) in waste water.[50] TiO2 offers great potential as an industrial technology for detoxification or remediation of wastewater due to several factors:[51]
The process uses natural oxygen and sunlight and thus occurs under ambient conditions; it is wavelength selective and is accelerated by UV light.
The photocatalyst is inexpensive, readily available, non-toxic, chemically and mechanically stable, and has a high turnover.
The formation of photocyclized intermediate products, unlike direct photolysis techniques, is avoided.
Oxidation of the substrates to CO2 is complete.
TiO2 can be supported as thin films on suitable reactor substrates, which can be readily separated from treated water.[52][

Response #1:
I believe that to make Titanium Dioxide work in visible light the structure is stretched somehow. On Mars that will not be necessary, as it actually works better with Ultra Violet, and Mars has plenty of that, and Roberts favorite plastic dome materials which include Fluorine (I think this is it), lets U.V. through.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polytetrafluoroethylene

So, I have a suggestion to try to get the moistest with the leastest possible.

-A chamber defined by a PCTFE tent, and a watertight bottom joined together.
-A water pond in the bottom, typically covered with a layer of ice as a U.V. shield, and as a source of moisture during the day for a photolysis process.
-Above the ice layer a photolysis process.
-Below the ice a photosynthesis process.
-For the photosynthesis process I don't need to go into detail. I have mentioned many variations which could be deployed.
-For the photolysis, I specify horizontal blinds. That is similar to vertical blinds, on a window, but in this case the collection of vanes will be deployed horizontally. The vanes can have a Titanium Dioxide catalyst side, and a blackened side. Like blinds on Earth a cord can move them all in parallel, presenting either side of the blinds to the sunlight as desired. In addition at night they could be closed to reduce the radiation of heat, or opened to encourage the thickening of ice.

The atmosphere above the ice and in the dome could be regulated as to pressure and as to the chemicals present.
-Argon at ambient Martian pressure is an option. Then during the day, water vapor would appear in the interior atmosphere, and the catalyst might split it.
-A different option would be to put raw Martian atmosphere into the dome above the ice, and then the daytime temperatures would add water vapor from the ice, and I would expect hydrocarbons to be synthesized.
In both cases free Oxygen should also result, which is both good and bad. If the pressure is low enough, perhaps explosive results can be avoided. Or if the resulting photolysized materials are kept to a smaller percentage of the mix by removal, then explosion or fire can be avoided.

How to extract the Hydrogen or Hydrocarbon, and the Oxygen without keeping them mixed is a problem to solve.

A direct use would be to simply inject the mix into the waters below to feed chemosynthesis in the waters.

Response #2:
If I wanted to make iron from meteor iron/nickel I would look into the Mond process which has been discussed here quite a bit.
https://www.deepdyve.com/lp/elsevier/di … LZ0Ql4s70H
Here is some thinking from our own web site:
http://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.php?id=6133
While Nickel is the main feature Iron is also mentioned here:
http://www.lunarpedia.org/index.php?title=Mond_process
Quote:

Various other metal carbonyls such as [Iron pentacarbonyl and Chromium hexacarbonyl form at various temperatures and pressures, giving the possibility for separating pure metals from mixtures in a similar manner to nickel. Iron carbonyl extraction in particular is already utilized in terrestrial applications for the production of very pure iron particles, known as carbonyl iron.

I would look into the above to produce iron and perhaps steel. Probably subsequent processes are required such as carbon content control, and alloys, but it is a start, and does not require giant energy hungry processes I think.

Last edited by Void (2017-01-08 21:02:55)

RobertDyck · 2017-01-08 21:00:02

Void wrote:

and Roberts favorite plastic dome materials which include Fluorine (I think this is it), lets U.V. through.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polytetrafluoroethylene

Close but not quite.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polychlor … roethylene

Void · 2017-01-08 21:03:35

I always get that just a little wrong. Thanks.

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