Chemosynthesis in Lava Tubes on Mars, as life support.

Void · 2015-12-29 13:39:43

This post also relates to a post in another section:
http://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.php?id=6082

After conversations with various people, particularly Antius and Spacenut about harnessing the full day night temperature range of Mars, (Including solar flux in the day), and the fact that lava tubes on Earth will host microbial life, and that it would not be that hard to modify Lava Tubes on Mars, to host life, I see that lava tubes could:
1) Provide an energy system.
2) Provide a chemosynthesis driven habitat which would provide many benefits.
3) As well, should the inhabitants desire they may also place some human habitat into the Lava Tubes.

From the first post by JonClarke:
http://www.marsdaily.com/reports/Scient … s_999.html
lava-tube-newberry-crater-oregon-cascades-mountains-lg.jpg

The microbes tolerate temperatures near freezing and low levels of oxygen, and they can grow in the absence of organic food. Under these conditions their metabolism is driven by the oxidation of iron from olivine, a common volcanic mineral found in the rocks of the lava tube. These factors make the microbes capable of living in the subsurface of Mars and other planetary bodies, the scientists say.

We have had discussions on this before. If soil/dunes with minerals like olivine could be fed to microbes in the caves, not only might we get biological activity, perhaps we would even have clay as a resulting substance. Olivine is not the only candidate mineral. Pyroxene and Feldspar might also be in the soils.

Now that is a rather humble lava tube, but fine, it suggests that humans could begin this on a bite sized level at first and then work their way up to gigantic lava tubes later.

Back to this: (I do not propose to make a brine lake in the lava tube, but rather a salty damp cold soil bed).

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lake_Vida

Introduction[edit]

Lake Vida is one of the largest lakes in the McMurdo Dry Valley region and is a closed-basin endorheic lake. The permanent surface ice on the lake is the thickest non-glacial ice on earth, reaching a depth of at least 21 metres (69 ft). The ice at depth is saturated with brine that is seven times as saline as seawater.[1] The high salinity allows the brine to remain liquid at an average yearly water temperature of −13 °C (9 °F). The ice cap has sealed the saline brine from external air and water for thousands of years creating a time capsule for ancient DNA. This combination of lake features make Lake Vida a unique lacustrine ecosystem on Earth.[2]

Composition[edit]

Lake Vida does not possess many factors attributed to the existence of life formations. Lake Vida contains high levels of nitrous oxide (N2O) and also molecular hydrogen (H2). The chemicals are believed to be released from chemical reactions between the brine and underlying sediments. The molecular hydrogen may be crucial as an energy source for life in the lake and aids in justifying the presence of life in an oxygen-deprived environment.[9]

Allright! So lets start with this. If you used loose soil to seal off the main entrances, but provided for pipeways, and human access, you could place a soil bed inside of the bottom of the lava tube, add salt and moisture, and bring the temperature up to some suitable value and microbes should be able to live off of Hydrogen and perhaps N2O, naturally produced by the action of salty brine on soil (Corrosion).
And you could influence the PH of that damp soil with CO2. All this seems reasonable on Mars.

This chemosynthesis may be augmented by gasses from the atmosphere as well, the Oxygen and CO that are a small component of the atmosphere. So doing that you can harness Photolysis to feed a chemosynthesis method in a Lava Tube.

I suggest that the CO2 be removed and the remnant gasses be circulated into the Lava Tube, when it is worthwhile.
Methods of removal of CO2 can be Cyrogenic or Reverse Osmosis.

So at this point during different times of the day you could circulate different gas mixtures through the lava tubes.

In early morning when the frost/dew has just left the ground and perhaps for a brief time the air near the ground has extra humidity, you could circulate raw Martian atmosphere through the lava tube expecting that the cold damp salty soil will absorb water from that air.

If using cold to split the CO2, from the rest of the gasses, then at night you would circulate the rest of the gasses through the lava tube, to as feed for the microbes. This should include Oxygen and CO as a small part of the 4.68% of the Martian atmosphere you would hope to "Harvest" from the raw Martian atmosphere.

http://www.space.com/16903-mars-atmosph … ather.html

Carbon dioxide: 95.32 percent
• Nitrogen: 2.7 percent
• Argon: 1.6 percent
• Oxygen: 0.13 percent
• Carbon monoxide: 0.08 percent
• Also, minor amounts of: water, nitrogen oxide, neon, hydrogen-deuterium-oxygen, krypton and xenon

So, if I am calculating correctly that mix would include about 2.78 % Oxygen, and 1.71 % CO. Of course this would presume perfect efficiency, and perfect efficiency will not happen, but it suggests that the microbes would get something significant for their metabolism.

If using reverse Osmosis, then the Microbes could be feed anytime, that their was energy to drive the Reverse Osmosis.

Another further method to do Chemosynthesis would be having solar powered Hydricity methods on the surface. This could produce various chemicals from splitting H20 and/or CO2.

Obviously the CO2 which was sequestered from the Raw Martian Atmosphere (RMA It's an Acronym!), could be evaporated from liquid or ice by manipulated solar energy, and so to turn a turbine, or if desired the hot CO2 passed into the Lava Tube to heat it. However such a maneuver may tend to dry out the interior of the lava tube, so;

We may wish instead to have a network of plastic tubing in the soil that will allow for the transfer of heat and cold into and out of the soil inside of the lava tube. The soil will be salty, so the type of plastic will have to endure that rigor, and it will also have to be able to deal with the various temperatures it will encounter. But in general the soil of the cave should be more friendly than the outside Martian environment.

I am thinking Ammonia or an Ammonia/Water mix as the primary fluid of transfer in the salty soil heat sink inside the lava tube.

This fluid could be directly heated in a Hydricity scheme, or perhaps the sequestered solid or liquid CO2 could be heated to turn a turbine, and the exhaust gas be blown over a heat exchanger which would collect waste heat. The cave will not need that much heat to hold a proper soil temperature value which allows microbes to grow, and which also allows water vapor to condense into the cold salty soil.

So, perhaps in the very early morning a water vapor collecting mode, where raw atmosphere is circulated to the cold salty soil. Then during the day, Hydricity, allows waste heat to warm up the soil, and so the atmosphere inside the cave might become temporarily humid, and a condenser would collect potable water for use. Then in the cold of night heat from the soil would be passed out to the night sky through radiators on the surface, and that process I would hope would turn a turbine.

Beyond Turbines, we do also have the possibility of exploiting energy from salt gradients, since you would have fresh potable water, and salty soil. (If there was enough brine in the soil). Just another possible option.

Under operation, the barometric pressure inside the lava tube should be slightly above outside ambient, in order to force air flows in this system. So with this additional pressurization, and with cold and with salt, the soil should be able to collect and retain moisture by methods described. Therefore, it may be ok to have temperatures in the soil warmer than the −13 °C (9 °F) that exist in Lake Vida in Antarctica. That of course will allow the microorganisms a less harsh experience, and it might also allow their metabolisms to run faster.

So what might you get from this chemosynthesis? Perhaps Methane. Perhaps even food. That is a thing to discover.

***

Another aspect. If you do pass the;
• Nitrogen: 2.7 percent
• Argon: 1.6 percent
• Oxygen: 0.13 percent
• Carbon monoxide: 0.08 percent
• Also, minor amounts of: water, nitrogen oxide, neon, hydrogen-deuterium-oxygen, krypton and xenon

Largely without the CO2, and the microbes digest all of the Carbon Monoxide, and half of the Oxygen, then you have a Nitrogen dominated mix. You might want to harvest Nitrogen, Argon, Oxygen (The Remnant), and "Also, minor amounts of: water, nitrogen oxide, neon, hydrogen-deuterium-oxygen, krypton and xenon", out of it.

So that is another potentially useful process.

***

And, yes you could put pressurized greenhouses into the lava tubes, to grow green plants. The plastic bag will not have to endure UV, large temperature swings, and it will not have to be transparent. So, that opens up varieties of plastic quite a bit. Of course for this you will need a light source, perhaps LED's. Since your system generates electricity in a variety of manners, your options are rather wide, if you settle for artificial lights.

***

Finally; Human habitation of the lava tubes?

Well some have expressed reservations, but I leave the question open. I would think that there could be at least some human habitat in the lava tubes. I don't think it necessarily follows that if humans enter a lava tube it will collapse. However, perhaps lava tubes can be stress tested with explosives prior to investing effort in them.

Last edited by Void (2015-12-29 13:46:40)

Void · 2015-12-29 13:48:11

I am adding this link because it suggests a way that Chemosynthesis might in fact supply good food to humans on Mars efficiently.

http://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index. … ic=27778.0
All of these quotes are from a Siberian named Nicolas:

Crew life support in space, you really need to maintain optimal conditions for flow and nutrient resources, water, air and food. Function of maintaining life, perform automatic life support systems, which are equipped with modules manned ships.
Life-support systems of the current generation, to reduce the consumption of consumables used multiple, cyclical treatment of water and air. Products coming on board, mostly freeze-dried, diluted with water, restored from the air and waste products. Oxygen in the air reduced by electrolysis of water, carbon dioxide is filtered and dumped overboard.
The lack of full utilization of the closed cycle life support, life support systems for major flaw of the current generation. In Earth orbit, this is not a lack of principle, always supplies can be delivered from the ground. But in the future when to begin long flights to Mars and create colonies on other planets, the supply of land will be severely hampered. Therefore, support systems must be fully autonomous.
Complete regeneration of water and air without dropping over the side of carbon dioxide and hydrogen is technically solvable problem. But the resumption of food products by direct chemical synthesis is impossible.
Now you want to use self-contained life support system with a biological regeneration of food resources. Plants grown in specific modules, the crews must provide food and convert carbon dioxide into oxygen.
Lack of regeneration systems of biological resources based on photosynthesis, a lot of weight and volume required for plant growth. Photosynthetic productivity is not great, improve it then what the new methods is unlikely.
However, photosynthesis is not the only way to biological regeneration of food resources.
I recently published a concept of getting food on board at the expense of - "chemosynthesis", the absorption of simple chemicals by bacteria, with the conversion of chemical energy in biomass. Some bacteria can feed on hydrogen, which can easily produce life-support system, restoring it from water through electrolysis. The growth rate of bacteria is very high, and the coefficient of absorption power when hydrogen is much more than plants. The high biological productivity of the bacteria, allows to obtain the required amount of biomass in a small volume without taking specific modules for space crops.
People can not eat bacteria directly, so to get the food you want to use simple food chains. Biomass of bacteria to cultivate fast-growing planktonic crustaceans or micro shrimp. Shrimp paste is a complete food that can form the basis of the diet for the crew. For a more varied diet for shrimp paste can be grown rapidly growing animals. As well as fast-growing greens grow in the special micro plantations, they do not occupy much space in contrast to the space greenhouses.
Incubators for cultivation of edible crustaceans will weigh no more than a ton and easily placed inside the habitable modules. Micro plantation for growing micro greens and a farm for breeding animals, so do not take up much space.
The proposed concept allows you to create self-contained life support systems of low mass, which can be placed in the standard of habitable modules.
The presence of such System Works simplify the task of creating habitable planets closest to the bases, and generally do manned expeditions cheaper.
Commercialization of this method on Earth can get cheap protein products on an industrial scale. Growing prawns with natural gas.
In agriculture, this method allows you to cultivate mushrooms and poultry on a substratum of dry biomass with high efficiency. Thus increasing the productivity of traditional farming and farmers to develop independently of the traditional cultivation of land, at the expense of natural resources.

So, I have previously indicated that a lava tube on Mars could be adapted to be like a lung, and have either damp salty soil in it's bottom, or shallow water above that.

Nighttime temperatures on Mars could be exploited to generate electricity during most of the night, cooling off this soil/brine. When it was very cold, and during the early morning ventilation could directly pass Martian air into the cave, and perhaps even also pressurize it. The purpose being to condense water vapor from that air into the soil/brine.

Then when the saturated or near saturated morning humidity ends at sunup, the ventilation shut off, but solar concentrating devices passing heat into the cold soil/brine, during the day, heating it up. And this also to generate power, and to make the soil/brine more suitable for a period for bacteria to grow.

Three forms of chemical source could feed the bacteria;
1) Corrosion of soil.
2) Martian Oxygen and CO in the atmosphere.
3) Hydricity where the solar concentrators to heat the soil/brine during the day would also generate H2 & O2, and perhaps O2 and CO.

*Also note that these processes would lend themselves to provide fuel, and also breathing air for humans.

Nicolas has suggested a way to convert that bacterial biomass into a microshrimp paste for human consumption.

So the system would provide energy, and food, and during day evaporation from the soil/brine in the cave during the heating process will provide a method for purified water.

Plus if you should want for some reason to use the lava tube as a shelter for habs, that is allowable. And of course artificially lighted greenhouses.

And so that you will have less objections, I will observe that in doing this you are not prohibited from making greenhouses on the surface. However to sustain your population, perhaps you only need 20% of the greenhouse space that you would otherwise require.

Last edited by Void (2015-12-29 14:02:47)

louis · 2015-12-29 21:05:37

I think these are interesting ideas Void, but I don't think they can be the first port of call. I guess I would put lava tubes in the "intermediate zone" - maybe 10-20 years after the initial landings. This is the sort of thing we need to explore: how do we create big living spaces without having to invest infeasibly huge resources in construction. There are other contenders as well: ice caves and (my favourites) natural gorges that are then artificially covered.

I like your approach, that you can create different environments through influencing the ambient conditions e.g. soil - that could equally apply to covered gorges.

louis · 2015-12-30 10:03:13

Here you go Void - looks like NASA are on your wavelength...

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/ … -site.html

Personally I'd prefer them to have a clear focus on landing and ISRU.

Void · 2015-12-30 12:44:38

Louis said:

I think these are interesting ideas Void, but I don't think they can be the first port of call. I guess I would put lava tubes in the "intermediate zone" - maybe 10-20 years after the initial landings. This is the sort of thing we need to explore: how do we create big living spaces without having to invest infeasibly huge resources in construction. There are other contenders as well: ice caves and (my favourites) natural gorges that are then artificially covered.
I like your approach, that you can create different environments through influencing the ambient conditions e.g. soil - that could equally apply to covered gorges.

Perhaps so. Also thanks for the last post with the NASA article.

I am also interested in ice caves. The reason is most likely obvious to both of us, massive potential, if you master the art.

I would like to hear about your ideas. I will present mine now.

I am interested the most in the "Grounding Line" of ice bodies, if it can be accessed.

http://www.antarcticglaciers.org/glacie … ing-lines/

Of course ice bodies on Mars almost certainly will not include association with natural bodies of water, but that will not prevent humans from generating them if it suits their purposes.

Fig-2.-Grounding-line-1024x521.png

So dealing with Martian ice bodies we have possibility to interface with the 1)Surface, 2)Ice, 3)Regolith, and 4)created bodies of water.

The ideal lava tube would be one that had a layer of ice over it, and yet was reasonably useable for humans. The probability of discovering that is very low, so we must settle for a less ideal situation, but in large quantities perhaps.

Interface between the four connectable environments will require good methods.

For instance if you are linking the 1) Surface with the 2) Ice, you will need a full force mechanical airlock for humans. Maybe your ice airlocks will work well for bulk materials. I will also speculate that if you used your ice idea, then you can reduce the necessity of finely machined airlock components by using some type of freezable fluid, perhaps even water.

Having mastered that, I presume you intend to try to pressurize habitats, I presume you intend to have buildings inside of these ice caves.

If it is to be a heavy building, perhaps we might prefer to find solid bedrock to use as it's foundations. My preference would be sandstone, since you could cut blocks out of it to build the building, and create a sandstone cave at the same time. A basement. Sandstone seems possible, but I am not sure it exists in any quantity outside of the equator of Mars.

Without sandstone, you still might want to build brick roman arches on top of bedrock inside of your ice caves. You might even consider encasing them in ice (Except the entrances), after construction.

Another material I have considered is tar paper. That is Tar and Mineral wool, or even Basalt cloth. But tar gives off fumes, so it might be a poor choice for direct human life support. Alternately I believe that a Silicon Tar might be safe, if it can be created. The point would be to be able to make tent like constructions, inside of ice caves. There may be cases where small habitats are constructed for some purpose to house people in transit between locations. Perhaps something like that would make sense.

So, 1) Surface, 2) Ice, 3) Regolith planed for associations. That leaves artificial bodies of water.

A pond might serve well as an airlock method. A hypersaline pond, could have suitably warm water in it's lower layers, and very cold water topped by ice above. A layer of ice 10 inches thick 25.4 Centimeters? thick, would apply a counterpressure of perhaps ~9mb above ambient. If we presume ambient is 6mb, then a total of 15mb.

If you cut a hole in the ice, and it was fresh unfrozen water, of course it will boil and freeze shut. However if it is very cold hypersaline water, then you might be able to have a porthole into the pond, and you might lower and raise large objects into and out of the pond.

I am presuming that the surface of the ice of the pond will be protected from fast evaporation by some covering such as Regolith (GW Johnson), and I am also presuming that your Ice Fishing Hole will have an Ice Shack over it.

Perhaps an upgrade tar paper shack

While it would be prudent to make it as vapor proof as possible, water vapor losses should be rather small, with reasonable precautions.

I presume that this "Barn" will have a "Barn Door", though which large objects can be moved. The door closed, most water evaporating from the ice hole and from emerging objects, will collect as frost on the walls and other surfaces. Perhaps periodically when the doors are closed, the interior will be warmed up to evaporate the frost, and that humidity will be recaptured in some method.

So, you have a hypersaline pond with a big airlock. Items brought into the water can be somewhat detoxified, by interaction with the water, and substances dissolved in the water. Salts, and also organic matter could be dissolved in the water. Perhaps sugar.

This should help to take care of the Hexavalent Chromium issue, and Perchlorates.

Further such a submerged item if brought into a habitat could be showered down, with the wash water going back into the pond, thus reducing the dust problem itself.

A big problem which has to be worked on is how to make hypersaline water and Ice play together nicely. Berms of Regolith can help in this, and perhaps a resort to passages made of bricks that pass through the berms.

Anyway to my recollection that is what I have for human habitation involving ice tunnels.

But.....

You have stimulated me to recognize that while Lava Tubes can be made to work like lungs that breath Martian atmosphere, and also provide a heat sink for night and day energy potentials, Ice Tubes could be constructed for this purpose as well! And there could be so much more them, a vast quantity.

I would construct the lung by melting a ice tube who's bottom was Regolith. I would berm the edges of the Regolith bottom with Regolith berms. I would put an arched tar paper roof over the bermed Regolith. The ice tube would be required to hold only a small amount of pressure above ambient at most. Perhaps never more than 24mb? on a guess.

As in the lava tube, the purpose of the ice tube would be to provide a layer of soil, which is mixed with a brine. The brine may even be pooled above the soil to some shallow extent.

So in the shallow brine/soil pool we would have heat exchanger tubes. I presume made of some suitable plastic. In the night time the heat of the pond would go out to the 1) Surface to generate electricity. The brine would be brought down to a quite cold temperature. In the morning if the 1) Surface humidity justified it, Martian air would be run directly over the cold brine.

Condensation would be promoted by the saltyness of the brine, and the cold of the brine. Additionally as necessary, the air pumped in would be pressurized to also promote condensation. That process would be expected to likely end at sunup or thereabouts.

At sunup we can hope to begin running Hydricity on the surface. This is to generate A) Electricity, B) Chemicals (To be well promoted with U.V.), and C) Waste Heat.

The Hydricity will almost certainly involve Heliostats. Perhaps with your polished steel.

The waste heat will be directed in part into the shallow bermed pool of brine and soil. The limits on heating will be connected to water loss.

So, it may be that the brine can be warmed to the range of ~0 DegC (~32 DegF), just as a guess, without maintaining a above ambient pressure. However, since you will have a method to circulate Martian atmosphere through the system during the morning, you may apply a static pressure during the day by simply using that system to pump it up, but restricting the outflow.

In that case perhaps the brine/soil could be heated to some temperatures above the range of ~0 DegC (~32 DegF) without large water losses.

We would expect the tar paper enclosure to hold significant humidity then, and could use a condensing process to extract fresh water from the enclosure.

The warm water might promote a bacterial chemosynthesis process, where, we are using:
-Corrosion, (Hydrogen) and then (Methane) if Martian CO2 is added,
-Oxygen and CO from the Martian Atmosphere,
-Chemicals from Hydricity,

To grow bacteria.

Another item is waste. Sewage might also be added. Perhaps with some treatment, if your bacteria are going to be fed to microshrimp for a microshrimp paste.

However if you wanted to since you could likely have a vast number of these "Lungs", you could have some for food production which you would not inject sewage into, and some for the plastic industry which you might inject organic waste into.

I have been looking at what you guys are up to and for a time was getting frustrated, sorry about that, but I see that we have some good stuff going on, and I am not talking about what I am adding, I really do like the directions that you people (You People!) are going in.

You are loosening up a bit, but I do believe that when the time comes appropriate rigor will be applied to an actual mission if you are to be involved.

Last edited by Void (2015-12-30 13:54:44)

Void · 2017-01-08 16:59:22

I'm back onto lava tubes again on Mars.
The reason is I think I have new ideas about how to make them more suitable to human needs.

Louis provided this previously:
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/ … -site.html

The picture above seems to show a collapsed window, with a rubble pile inside. Previously I had been thinking, how could humans access this?

My answer now is just push more dirt into the hole, until you plug it up, and dig yourself some passage tunnels through the dirt pile.

Questions will need to be answered about how stable the remaining ceiling is. If required bracing may be needed under it. Perhaps expanding the rubble pile horizontally under any at risk ceiling would be part of an answer for that.

Alright if all major leaks were plugged, having significant water might be good.
Fill the lava tube with water. Although a lava tube is slanted, and water pressure would build up the further down you go, the very cold permafrost of Mars will tend to not allow much of it to leak. If a spring did show, up then internal plugging of cracks would be desired. Also, periodically, earth dams could be used to segment the body of water. On the lee side of each dam would be an air pocket, and a beach actually, I think. Otherwise on the ceilings as you went deeper could be semi-natural air pockets, or manufactured air filled diving bells.

But lava tubes will be associated with volcano's and so uplands. Where and how to get the water?

Canals and pipelines will be hard, so I am going to suggest an Antius idea (I belive). Slugs of ice fired from a location with ice such as Utopia Planetia, or the polar caps in a sub orbital flight. Robots to retrieve some of the ice. (Some losses are inevitable).

But these lava tube underground water reservoirs could have a very low loss rate, so once they were filled, make up water needs should be rather small.

Mostly life inside would be fostered with chemicals, and perhaps artificial lighting, but those chemicals and artificial lighting would come from the surface, and ultimately sunlight for the most part. (Photolysis is from the sun also). The only exception might be to generate Hydrogen from Serpentinization. Or natural gas under the surface, if it exists.

I also think something similar to this could be done at Mt. Sharp, with carved sandstone caves.

So, the point being that even though Utopia Planetia has a draw for itself, it could also foster major habitation at low latitudes, and at volcanic areas, if a ballistic delivery of ice blocks could be implemented.

That would broaden out the habitability of Mars I think. Some these upgraded locations might support mining operations, so that needed minerals could be obtained for the planetary civilization to be built.

Last edited by Void (2017-01-08 17:27:56)

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#1 2015-12-29 13:39:43

Chemosynthesis in Lava Tubes on Mars, as life support.

#2 2015-12-29 13:48:11

Re: Chemosynthesis in Lava Tubes on Mars, as life support.

#3 2015-12-29 21:05:37

Re: Chemosynthesis in Lava Tubes on Mars, as life support.

#4 2015-12-30 10:03:13

Re: Chemosynthesis in Lava Tubes on Mars, as life support.

#5 2015-12-30 12:44:38

Re: Chemosynthesis in Lava Tubes on Mars, as life support.

#6 2017-01-08 16:59:22

Re: Chemosynthesis in Lava Tubes on Mars, as life support.

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