Hab at the bottom of a Martian lake

Tom Kalbfus · 2014-01-16 13:06:16

Seems to me that if a frozen Martian lake can be found, then if a hab could be placed at the bottom of that lake, about 30 meters below the surface the water pressure would equal 1 bar. I am talking about a small lake here, something small enough for a portable nuclear reactor to keep liquid underneath a sheet of ice, and perhaps some artificial illumination can be provided to allow plants to grow on the bottom, and arctic varieties of fish. Astronauts could then dive through a moon pool at the bottom of the hab and go fishing in insulated diving suits. Now we could do this one of two way, either we can find our own frozen Martian lake or make one, by melting permafrost and pumping it in to fill a crater. So what do you think, would this work? Oxygen would be dissolved into the lake water from the hab, it would essentially be an aquarium.

Last edited by Tom Kalbfus (2014-01-16 13:10:18)

Void · 2014-01-16 14:01:48

Alright you are probabbly messing with me but that's ok.

If you search under VOID you will find things down that line.

However I will give you a few things to ponder.

1) Such a lake only needs a partial pressure air lock, as the water column can take care of most of the pressure differenial.

2) (For Fresh Water) By manufacturing a insulating tile similar to styrofoam, you could insulate the underside of the ice. You would simply push such a tile on to the underside of the ice layer, and it would freeze to it. Tile the underside of the whole ice slab, and your lake can have elivated temperatures. Those would be limited by the thickness (Weight) of the ice. 100 feet yeilds approzimately 1000 mb, 7 feet yeilds approximately 70 mb.

3) (For salt water) See Antarctic Dry Valley lakes. They are solar powered. The upper layer of water is more fresh and colder and saturated with oxygen because microorganisms use sunlight shining through the ice to do photosynthisis. The lower layers can be naturally very warm, and are anoxic.

An artificial lake however is not limted by the natural character of Antarctic Dry Valley lakes. It should be possible to Oxydize all the layers of the lake. In fact the Oxygen levels can be very high, to saturation of the water.

Such a salty lake is possible, because of layering. The lower layers are saltier, and so do not convect (Turn over) even if they are warmer than the layers above them.

And not only can they be heated "Naturally" by sunlight through the ice, but as you stated nuclear, but also a simple solar concentrating mirror can superheat lake water to steam, and the run a turbine, and also that steam can be be quenched directly into the lake water using an eductor.

I don't know why it has been so hard to get these notions on the radar.

And by the way if you can have a lake over a soft layer of rock, you can have air filled caves below. Either enter them through water to air air locks, or have actual sink traps.

Want more? If your lake is overheating because you are quenching hot steam into it, you can run an ammonia cycle off the heat of the lake to generate power also, and particularly at night and in the winter, and during dust storms.

Last edited by Void (2014-01-16 14:03:22)

Terraformer · 2014-01-16 14:04:36

To be fair, you could probably insulate such a system using a relatively thin sheet of clear plastic, it doesn't have to hold in much pressure. If you've got water available, dig a lake out, cover it, and flood it. The airlock would only be dealing with a dozen or so millibars of pressure, and sunlight would be able to get through to allow plants to grow.

Void · 2014-01-16 15:02:03

One advantage of an ice layer on top is if there is a fault in the ice (Brakage), water rushes up into the crack, encounters colder ice, freezes. It's self scabbing up to a point.

While I would prefer salty ice covered bodies of water, for the most part if they are generated off from say sub soil ice or the ice caps themselfs, then the probable most harmonious environment that could be most easlily created in mass would be a (Somewhat) fresh water sea, (Ice covered).

If the ice were kept translucent then some solar energy would enter. The temperature on the underside of the ice would be 32 degF/0 degC

Lower in the water column it would be possible for fresh water to reach 39 degF/3.89 degC.

So the bottom of the enclosure is slightly buffered to a temperature above the bottom of the ice, and of course the bottom of the ice is much more suitable to human survival most likely than is the surface.

Now if you want to build things out of plastic, do so on the bottom of the body of water where the temps are already a rather stable 39 degF/3.89 degC.

How much light can get through the ice? Depends on the character of the ice. If it's manufactured, then perhaps a significant part.

Build a bunch of water filled tubes on the bottom? Having done so, if the pressure there were 1 bar, then you could saturate the water in the tubes with the equivalant of 1000 bars of disolved Oxygen. This could possibly allow for a centrifuge type oxygen extractor to allow you to breath from the water.

If you feel the light is too dim? How about plastic concentrating mirrors floating in the water to focus the light comming through the ice.

But Nuclear is OK.

Artificial lights? Sure.

How about air filled bottle/terrariums/gardens that are allowed to float up to the bottom of the ice. During the day they could heat up well above 32 degF/0 degC. In fact they might be like a thermous bottle with a vacuum insulator between two walls, but I don't think it has to go to extremes.

At night the crops either fall to 0 degC (Just above freezing water), or a cord pulls them down to the bottom where it is a bit warmer. They could be inspected then. When the crops were ready, take the bottle into an enclosure, harvest the crop, and replant and redeploy. Of course water plants would be fine. Growing on the bottom or on platforms further up. If fresh, then maybe no bottle. If salt then in a bottle.

Last edited by Void (2014-01-16 15:12:51)

Void · 2014-01-17 09:27:02

Hope I did not wreck your deal Tom. It's just that I have been working on such thinking for a long time. Perhaps 38 years actually. I have a lot of materials to associate with it.

I do like the terrarium garden notion.

For instance if you were going to live above water, but wanted to use the method to grow plants, I can speculate on the following.

A pond with a clear dome above it.

At planting time, you place your planted terrariums which would be weighted down in a dry pond. You slightly pressurize the dome, and you pour ice water into it. Then you let the top freeze.

Then you can remove the pressurization, but will still need the enclosure to be vapor sealed. The ice, if perhaps a foot thick might be very cold on top, and of course the temperature of melt water on the bottom.

During the night the ice would thicken. During the day it would thin, hopefully mostly from the bottom, but of course some might come off of the top, and the pressure rise slightly, but the dome should hold in that increased pressure. When the air temperatures approached the condensation point of vapors in the dome towards sunset, a pump could pull the air in, and by pressure and cooling, condense it to liquid, and that liquid could be re-injected into the pond waters.

Inside each terrarium might be a very small robot, for inspection, and perhaps to do some manipulations of the plants such as pruning, or fertalizing.

When the crops were ready, the water would be pulled out of the dome (Perhaps pumped into another), and the terrariums would be exposed to dry air, and the dome could be opened up and each terrarium pulled into a chamber where the plants would be harvested.

Of course in this scheme, the temperatures in the terrariums might get as cold as 0 degC, but some plants can put up with that. During the day the terrariums should rise in temperature, just how much might depend on the construction of the terrariums.

The point is that you get frost shielding in the night, and it might be noticed that it should be possible to keep the terrariums from overheating as well. Also there is some radiation protection for the plants, and your dome at max only has to be rated to hold a minimal pressure above the local ambient pressure.

You need a good source of water of course.

Some plants can tollerate a light frost. For those, the water could be salty, and it's temperature lower than the freezing point of fresh water, and that would allow the vapor pressure of the water and ice to be below that of Martian ambient, which might be a benefit.

I did mention balast weights, and if they were inside the terrariums, they could also absorb heat during the day and release it at night, so although the surrounding water would be a liquid 0 degC (or a bit more), the inside of the terrarium might stay at perhaps a low of a few degrees above freezing, which would be helpful with less hardy plants.

Also there is the option to have liquid filled terrariums where seaweed would be grown, but typically water plants are not a well developed crop type.
Terrariums could hold fresh water or salt water.

Last edited by Void (2014-01-17 11:15:12)

Quaoar · 2014-02-01 11:35:21

Here is an interesting study by GW Johnson for a Mars subglacial habitat with aquaculture

http://exrocketman.blogspot.it/2012/03/ … -mars.html

It has also a very very good radiation shield.

Void · 2014-02-02 10:00:38

I really like GW Johnsons article.

It may be that the soil and ice moving process will turn out to be the best way.

However I would prefer to seek a method where indeed such a lake would begin with ice already in place, and a nuclear reactor, which would initiate the lake.

Such a process could be preceded with a Mars probe involving plutonium energy sources.

I would like to see a durable lander with a plutonium energy source put down on the ice around one of the polar ice caps. I would want this lander to be able to survive the polar winters. It should also carry a child probe with it's own plutonium power source, and that child probe should be deployed to the ice which I would hope would have been cleared by the landing event, much as occurred near the south pole of Mars already.

Perhaps the lander would have extra fuel, so that it can hop if the first deployment is not suitable. It might also fire its engines more without liftoff, to further clear the ice, and perhaps to preheat it a bit and perhaps also to evaporate a hollow hole.

The child probe would be lowered into the hole, and it's plutonium power source would need to be powerful enough to drill through the ice by evaporation and later melting.

The ideal outcome would be the probe being encased in ice with a water pocket. The child probe should have some means to detect existing life, or evidence of organics.

The child probe should ideally melt it's way down through the ice down, down to the bottom, where it should encounter rock or mud. The probe should be analyzing the chemistry as it travels.

It might talk to the parent probe by sound, the lander having microphones in its feet, and the two being able to talk to each other.

I believe that GW Johnson believes in having ground truth, and this could provide it.

It might be necessary to have several of these, or to have the lander have several child probes, and to be able to hop to several locations for deployments.

Void · 2014-02-02 10:19:17

The objective would be to find a location with desired resources.
-A deep and wide body of ice.
-Useful minerals at the bottom of the ice. At least something you could manufacture needed machines from. Manufacture solar cell panels.

The plutonium sources would have to have a prolonged containment life, so that they could be retrieved later and disposed of properly.

Upon discovery that supports the investment, a true nuclear reactor would be deployed, with the capability to evaporate and melt its way down through the ice and to begin creating a melt water pocket covered with ice. I would expect that after deployment eventually the wind would cover the entrance ice with soil from around the area. Before it submerged, perhaps it would collect some Carbon from the atmosphere.

The nuclear reactor machine would make a second attempt to discover life, upon melting, water should react with minerals in the lake bottom, such as iron, to produce Hydrogen. It is possible that Martian life, if it existed would try to use it as a food source. If this had negative results, then the reactor machine would begin to manufacture Hydrogen, Methane, and Oxygen from water and it's carbon stores. (There would likely be CO2 dissolved in the ice, but I am not certain of that). It would inject the Hydrogen to one layer, and the Oxygen to another layer. I suggest the Hydrogen and Methane would be allowed to bubble up to the underside of the ice, and the Oxygen dissolved to the lake bottom water.

Since life had not been discovered (I presume), perhaps an Oxygen over lake bottom stimulus would cause it to metabolize. I am not inclined to think so, but maybe.

Upon a negative discovery of life, the reactor machine would release Earth micro-organisms to metabolize the chemicals (Hydrogen, Methane, Oxygen) of the waters, and also to inhabit the melted subsoil.

Last edited by Void (2014-02-02 10:21:46)

Void · 2014-02-02 10:29:48

The objective would be to provide a sheltered location for humans, in the bitterly hostile location of the high latitudes of Mars.

How humans then land, and enter the lake becomes a problem to solve.

When the enter the lake, they might find that it offers radiation protection, liquid water (Which may need treatment), Oxygen dominated waters. The Hydrogen and Methane should have been absorbed by life forms. The Oxygen could be extracted, or the reactor could be tapped into to pipe some of the Oxygen to their habitat. The Hydrogen and Methane could be utilized as fuel. The humans would need to inject more Carbon and Nitrogen into the lake from the atmosphere.

The reactor would give off heat, and also the chemicals being processed by organisms and their mobile activities in the lake would provide melting.

From the bottom of the lake they might obtain a more fertile soil to grow garden plants, since the organic activity of the lake might have improved that soil by that time.

Void · 2014-02-02 10:34:17

If the atmosphere had not been warmed up by then with greenhouse gasses, and by putting dirt from Phobos/Demos on to the C02 of the south polar ice cap, then the inhabitants would have to cope with very long winters where C02 condenses to about 6 feet??? and is very hostile to above surface equipment. However they might be able to design equipment that could cope with it. Perhaps inflatable domes would be deflated for the winter (Greenhouses), and solar panels would simply have to be made rugged in such a way that the CO2 condensate would not ruin them quickly.

Void · 2014-02-02 10:41:18

Practicality would have to rule, but if I could have my preferences, the inhabitants would evacuate the location for the winter for lower latitudes, at least until the body of water had been made substantial in size.

As for solar power, I am entertaining the idea that for the most part, it would be used to manufacture chemicals, such as Hydrogen, Methane, and Oxygen to inject to the lake.

As for artificial lighting, I wonder about some type of catalytic burner to provide light from burning Hydrogen and/or Methane in Oxygen, inside of diving bells at locations in the lake. If not that, then perhaps fuel cells, and electric lighting.

Methane could be stored in pressurized tanks in the lake, most likely at greater deep locations.

Oxygen would be the predominant dissolved gas in the lake, and during power outages, it should be provided that it can be extracted from the water for use by humans.

During the winter, it would be possible to sacrifice some of the heat of the lake by radiating it to the surface to generate electric power. However, it is not impossible to speculate on more reactors which would use Martian resources as their fuel.

Void · 2014-02-02 10:45:27

As for human mobility in the body of water, here is an interesting start, it already exists, and I suspect that it could be modified to allow humans to work in any part of the water column of the lake.

https://www.google.com/search?q=wasp+un … 28&bih=390

http://www.mtsmuv.org/ads_suits.htm

I have my own designs, something rather different, but am not ready for that yet.

I am sure they are suitable for use in very cold water, and also since they are used to work on underwater oil rigs and other such devices, they could have a place in the methods, but I bet they are rather expensive, but perhaps the infamous 3D printers could manufacture some of the parts for them.

As I have said, I think I have something else to use as well, but it's not time.

Yes, insulated scuba gear might also be used, for shorter durations in favorable conditions, preferably near 1 bar of pressure +/- some value, and if possible in an enclosure with water that has been heated to more suitable temperatures, and which also has an emergency method of life support such as an air pocket in a diving bell. In fact a combination of a diving bell with an open bottom, and a scuba diving suit might be rather useful. The diver could exit it and do some work and re-enter when necessary to warm up, and perhaps to take their gear off if conditions are warm enough. (Do body functions and so on).

Last edited by Void (2014-02-02 10:53:58)

Void · 2014-02-02 10:58:13

I have a desire for a pond becoming a lake, becoming a sea, and perhaps even an ocean.

Perhaps a system of large lakes in the southern high latitudes, and perhaps one large sea/ocean replacing the northern ice cap/buried ices.

It is not hostile to the notion of terraforming the surface, but would support it, as leaked Methane would occur, and that would be a greenhouse gas to warm up the atmosphere and surface. Eventually a water cycle would occur after a century, with snows, and snow melts, streams and rivers. But the poles would remain rather cold, and would seek to lock up the water resources into ice, and this method would allow that water to be unlocked and utilized.

Water is very important. I like to believe that I am not stubborn, if it turns out to make more sense to inhabit lower latitudes first, then that is the thing to do.

As for experiments, I suggest that here on Earth it should be tried to inject Natural Gas and Air into a frozen over Pond/Lake, and to see what biological ecosystem would develop.
This would also identify organisms to try to use in a ice covered lake on Mars. Natural gas I believe contains some Hydrogen, and some Methane and other things, Air would simply be cheaper to experiment with than Oxygen.

Anyway that's plenty for now.

Last edited by Void (2014-02-02 11:03:45)

SpaceNut · 2014-02-02 19:24:12

This lake topic I have seen before over on MarsDrives or on Red colony forums but I do not remember if it was post crash of the site or after, could have even been here just do not remeber for sure where. On this site there was a related thread Earths Oceans Explored - but why not colonized of which the items that would be a detriment to having a base under water were discussed as well as food, power plus more.

Void · 2014-02-02 20:43:23

SpaceNut, Thanks for the conversational reply.

The reason we have not colonised the oceans is that it is almost as hard as the colonisation of space and we have developed techniques that allow us to get at the resources of the ocean without the need for actual permanent manned prescence under the sea. Living underwater has many dangers that afflict aquanauts and they are prone to many illnesses.

Actually I was in both places, and at redmars got spankings regularly. I have had many names.

I totally agree with the opinion quoted. For Earth, a aquatic environment is less livable than living on land or a boat, and working with the deeps with equipment, and if necessary divers. A few feet down, takes away the air, the light, and in many cases involves lethal cold. Go deeper, and it takes very elaborate and expensive equipment to produce gain.

I champion the aquatic environment as a potential supplement to above ground activities.

If you will notice Antarctica, only a small amount of life can exist on the surface, and that just a few species. Go into the water though, and life can abound.

And Antarctica does not have a lack of atmosphere or a radiation problem like Mars on the surface.

Indeed, even on Mars, it may be that it would be preferable for much of human housing to be above surface. Particularly if you are dealing with a cold fresh body of water from 32 to 39 degrees which is the winter normal for temperate climate fresh water lakes.

However, a possible deviation from that would be if you had habitats under the rock of the lakebed, mine shafts perhaps. But be that as it may, I still maintain that while the surface of Mars will not be likely to have a Earth like habitat for 10's and likely hundreds of years, the aquatic subsurface could be made to be Earth like in much shorter time periods.

Honestly I think it is more likely that a more standard method will be used at first, on the surface, at as low a latitude as can provide a substantial glacial source of water. But even there such a method as this could be employed.

So I have a problem with the notion that Mars is the American south west. It looks like it in places, but in reality it is a much more severe version of Antarctica which has an enormous dry valley between the two polar regions.

I look at the high Arctic and Antarctica, and see that life teams in the ocean waters, but is meager on land. To me this is a clue.

Another reason, is that civilizations always establish a good water supply. The Romans did it, we do it. That's where the money and the life is.

It is actually my hope that indeed there was a saltwater ocean in the northern third of Mars, and that the salt is buried under the soil we see. In that case an expanding ocean would dissolve some of that salt, and a salty body of water can have different properties than fresh water. In a dry valley lake, the bottom water can be very salty and shirt sleeve warm. The upper water is colder, and less salty, which is why the warm water below which should be lighter because of a greater heat stays in place. It is made heavy by the greater salt content.

Another reason to consider attempts at this method can be named as Ceres and Callisto for starters. Methods developed in the harsh upper latitudes of Mars may translate into usefulness when going to the icy bodies further out.

Anyway this thread was started as a lake with a nuclear reactor.

I am not a one tract person anyway. Dealing with Mars will require methods to work on the surface as well as dealing with volumes of water.

It is not an "Or" situation, it is an "And" situation.

But criticism is valid. I would not want to cause the effort to take a wrong turn.

Void · 2014-02-02 20:56:54

I have ideas under development for mobile equipment that can work either on the surface, or in another version under a underground ocean. The idea involves habit + mobility+the ability to reach out with a hand and perform work.

However, to avoid possible humiliation, I do not intend to put a child idea out for examination until it has grown up.

But that is the reason I have some hopes for humans working on Mars. I do not think that counter pressure suits or balloon suits alone will allow a productive enough manipulation of the Martian environment, to make a living. Other methods are needed. For instance the mechanical ape that I posted a number of days ago. But that is not what I am currently working on. (However, I can see a wild modification of it that would be interesting).

If insanity is doing the same thing over and over again, and expecting a different outcome, then sanity may be looking for a new method.

But keep challenging us.

Last edited by Void (2014-02-02 21:04:34)

GW Johnson · 2014-02-05 12:32:21

The ice-covered lake idea I posted over at "exrocketman" was just one of two ways to grow food, not really a habitat all by itself.

There's food that grows in water, for which an ice-covered lake would be an ideal way to have stable water on Mars without massive construction of pressurized structures. This offers more growing space on Mars with less effort than any other thing I could think of. I do not believe there is a fundamental scaling limit on this approach: these lakes could be as big as anyone could ever want. That was "Aquaculture Habitat Lake for Mars" dated 3-18-12. The main thing you need to build one is the equivalent to a bulldozer.

The other is food grown in air, which requires pressurized structures. The easiest I could think of was a mushroom-shaped structure with a transparency around the perimeter under the mushroom cap. That's also posted over at "exrocketman" as "Aboveground Mars Houses" dated 1-26-13. That approach is limited by scaling of structures vs material strengths, unlike the ice-covered lake. These would require the equivalent of front end loaders and bulldozers to construct, and we would need an equivalent to earthly concrete, plus transparency panels probably brought from Earth.

GW

Last edited by GW Johnson (2014-02-05 12:33:18)

Void · 2014-02-05 13:31:21

I support your views. You used the view scalable, and thats what I like. You can paraterraform a pond, or you can paraterraform a much larger area. The payout on parateraforming or teraforming the whole of planet Mars is long time off, but it can best be done with human presence on Mars. Any tool such as a ice covered water enclosure that might facilitate humans living on Mars, would also facilitate the terraformation of Mars.

Hydrology is going to be important in any case. More water is better as far as I can see. Ignoring the high latitude burried ice as a resource to master is not a good idea in my opinion, and should be fitted into any "Business Plan" for Mars. The Polar ice caps themselves? Maybe much later.

Your above ground hab.

I have been considering that the mid latitudes of the southern hemisphere has salt pans. It is true that some buildings have been constructed from salt here on Earth, salt bricks on the surface, and also in salt mines.

I am considering bricks made of mineral wool with salt as the binder. Compressed blocks.

Also, I wonder about mineral wool fabric similarly glued together in layers by salt. As a glue applied to added layers of mineral wool fabric, it would have to be a cold liquid, as it would be brine, it is likely workable out in the ambient conditions of the surface of Mars.

It is also true that there are different types of salt, and different mixtures could be tried. And as a further wild idea, I wonder about adding sugar and/or starch to the mix. There might be some mixture that would solidify quite nicely in the Martian atmosphere. Of course the mineral wool either as a felt or a fabric would add a lot of strength to the construction. Similar to fiberglass I would think.

I seem to recall that there is someone out there who is thinking about constructing counterpressure frames from Lunal soil glued together with salt. Then a balloon habitat inside of that.

The Mars external environment usually would not be a threat to the integrity of the salt binder, I think, the humidity usually too low. However, the interior humidity could be a threat, so I guess you would need a balloon or other containment wall on the interior to contain the humid and pressurized atmosphere, but the Salt/Mineral Wool concrete substitute could provide the gravitational counterpressure and tensile counterpressure for the most part.

The salt is there aparently, and I believe that mineral wool is rather easy to manufacture, and is also useful as a thermal insulator. Can actually make fabrics from it I guess, but you wouldn't want to wear them, but it might be useful for other mechanical applications.

I would think that salt and mineral wool structures might be useful to hold up solar cell arrays as well.

Last edited by Void (2014-02-05 14:18:22)

Void · 2014-02-07 11:18:26

Maybe Mucus would be good. Dried up on Mars, it might make a good binder.

Seems like something an animal in nature might use to glue together a nest.

http://library.thinkquest.org/J0112390/Boogers.htm

Probably want to give it some extra salt, to keep it fluid in ambient Martian conditions.

Then add Mineral Wool, and maybe some soil, then either compress it into bricks and dry it, or add laminations to a structure that is being built.

BOOGER BRICKS!

Would you rather pick something else?

Last edited by Void (2014-02-07 11:38:47)

Tom Kalbfus · 2014-02-07 14:36:24

Void wrote:

Maybe Mucus would be good. Dried up on Mars, it might make a good binder.
Seems like something an animal in nature might use to glue together a nest.
http://library.thinkquest.org/J0112390/Boogers.htm
Probably want to give it some extra salt, to keep it fluid in ambient Martian conditions.
Then add Mineral Wool, and maybe some soil, then either compress it into bricks and dry it, or add laminations to a structure that is being built.
BOOGER BRICKS!
Would you rather pick something else?

I don't think there will be enough snotty noses on Mars to build anything of significance.

GW Johnson · 2014-02-07 19:17:28

Fish are covered in mucus. They live in water. Just like the ice-covered lakes we were discussing here.

GW

SpaceNut · 2014-02-07 20:54:23

So site selection is a key element, construction methods of the habs creation in a hole that we cover to cap the new ice covered pond or lake to which water is added in slowly as we live on mars. Egress to the surface is in an elevator shaft from the under waer hab.

So how much of this is constructed from insitu materials and how much must be sent.....

Void · 2014-02-07 21:53:49

Yes, I am actually thinking the best payoff might be a lake where you dump chemicals into it. And a Microorganism population.

In Mexico there is a cave with a toxic atmosphere, but a organism lives there that hangs from the roof. They form Snot-Cycles, and the fish below eat that disgusting stuff.

Mucus it seems I have read contains protein, and sugars, and water, and perhaps some other things I do not understand.

Never the less, our ancestors were willing to make their houses out of sod for a while because wood was too hard to get, and they were willing to burn buffalo chips for similar reasons. Being fussy, maybe can be afforded later, but working with what is possible now plan for better options later.

I would think that lakes could have different chemicals inputted, to support the microbes desired, a "Plankton" to provide materials desired. The organisms digesting the chemicals, and swimming about will actually heat the lake, like a moist hay pile gets hot inside.
It may be needed to actually radiate energy from such lakes or they might get too hot, or you could cut back the magnitude of chemicals added. Chemicals I can think of are Hydrogen, Oxygen, CO2, CO, Hydrogen Sulphide and so on. Not every lake has to be the same.

It seems to me that this requires solar power, and breaking down water, CO2, and soil chemicals to produce what you would want. Further you would have to discover and culture the ecosystem for each lake. Some fresh, some salty. Some with Oxygen, some without.

As for the airlock, in theory, water at 0 Degrees C, would have a vapor pressure of about 6 MB. There is also the problem of evaporation from a place of higher humidity to a place of lower humidity. So, an airlock or pipeline interface does not have to be as rugged as the barriers to hold a 1 bar atmosphere for humans against the 5 MB average pressure of Mars. But holding the humidity in is a hard problem. There are many possible variations.

Someday, I would like a Antarctic type dry valley lake with warm water in it's lower layers. However, in the beginning, though, what is more needed is production of what you would need, so maybe large deep swimming pools are a dream for the far farther future.

As for importing materials, I think that an airlock into such a "COLD" lake will a tool shed, kept cold so that escaped water will condense in it as ice. The shed could be pressurized to a low pressure after the humans enter the shed, and a lid over the hole in the ice could be opened then. Some vapor would evaporate into the shed, and condense as ice. The divers would do their necessary work, and come out. I presume that for these cold lakes the normal would be a collection of pipes to add chemicals, and somehow a method to remove slime, or whatever it is the critters in the lake were making for you to use. After the human activity was done, the humans would exit, and little of the moisture would be lost, because the lid had been closed over the water opening, and the shed door had been closed. Then the shed would be heated, and a compressor would recapture the moisture that had frozen in the shed, and that moisture could be re-injected into the lake as condensed water.

In that notion maybe most items required for the shed and low pressure air lock could be manufactured on Mars.

I don't know, if you want a human passage into a warm water "Dry Valley Lake" then you have to deal with higher pressures. But maybe by then rugged stuff could be manufactured on Mars.

Void · 2014-02-13 06:59:12

One thing I have mentioned some time ago, is that for a lake of sufficient size, you could build stone structures on it's rocky bottoms.

Using Roman, and other methods for stone working, such as those which existed in the Andes Mountains, it should be possible to build enclosures, domes.

The differential pressures will be 1/3 that of Earth. At a debth of 132 feet for a lake bottom, and a dome with a height of 32 feet, the differential pressure from top to bottom of experienced water column would be 32 feet, or 1/3 bar, not 1 bar, so Mars is more suitable.

Mars has many stones laying around, so that resource is there. The methods of the Andes, would allow close fitting stones, perhaps without a mortar. Inside of that dome
should then be placed a balloon, to make sure the air stays in. Of course the dome itself, even the roof, has to be heavy enough that floatation will not blow it apart.

This would work for cold water lakes, but would be even more useful, if you had a lake stratified by the weight of disolved salts. In that case, the layer at the bottom could be kept at a comfortable shirt sleeve temperature, with colder less salty layers above that, Ice above that, and then a protective covering such as soil and solar collectors above that.

Where this could really be good, is if you had a lake of significant size, so that an entire city could be built, covering many square Kilometers/Miles.

I suggest a subtracting 3D printer type machine, instead of adding to the stone, removing, to shape it. Robotic, and maybe with a pounding hammer to subtract materials, to shape the stones.

Automated.

A boyancy device like a submarine as your crane to move the stones and place them.

And the option of fiber optic lighting.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hybrid_solar_lighting

http://www.limitless.uk.com/parans-solar-collector/

https://www.google.com/search?q=Fiber+o … 80&bih=817

So if you input extra energy, the waters warm up, and perhaps you want to generate electricity by venting heat to the surface.

This form of stored energy would be available around the clock, and would have it's greatest potentials perhaps in the nighttime, and perhaps also during a polar winter when the outside temperatures are especially cold.

I am thinking of turbines of course.

A city of several square Kilometers/Miles built up would be able to support a very large amount of generative economic activity, just like cities on Earth do.

Last edited by Void (2014-02-13 11:13:42)

Void · 2014-02-14 06:50:57

One possible way to make a river run on Mars might be with a laser pointed horizontally at a polar ice cap or other significant deposite of ice.

Above ground it might be possible, to tunnel horrizontally and to have a ice covered river in the summer. The purpose would be to fill a basin. Even I am not all that sure how well this would work. However if terraforming raised the atmospheric pressure a bit, to perhaps double what it is now, perhaps it would work. I believe that I read that if the CO2 in the polar ice cap were evaporated, an atmosphere of 11 mb would result, and water would be stable enough for temporary streams from snow melt. That should allow ice covered rivers to run.

To keep the river running after the initial melt, flow down an elivation can help, it stirs the water and warms it somewhat, but other methods might be required at points to prevent ice dams.

Underground, it seems more likely, to be able to "Drill" a horizontal tunnel, if the ice were relatively pure. Running water? Maybe, there would be a lot of variables, but a ice "Tube" would definanately convey vapor from the point of evaporation/melting to the exit where the laser was.

This would be suitable to large glaciers, and the layered terrain around the ice caps, and might be suitable to the ice caps as well.

For science as a side effect, it might be possible to create these horrizontal drillings, and to either send in robots to examine what has been exposed, or even humans, if there were a reason, and if it were safe. Some ice caves on Earth are safe enough to enter.

As enclosures, it is not out of the question that some economic use could be found. Perhaps to store something, or maybe even automated factories at low temperatures.

Anyway it is my view that working with ice to create a hydrosphere on Mars, hydrology will be very important to making Mars pay, since simply expecting to sustain a greenhouse gas generator for 1 or more centuries before getting a payoff in my opinion may be too much of an economic burden on whoever is trying to do it. Manipulations of water could generate large profits, and anyone who wants to have comforts such as air, water, food, and shelter should want profits.

Last edited by Void (2014-02-14 06:52:23)

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Hab at the bottom of a Martian lake

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