Solar Enclosure Architecture On Mars

Void · 2012-04-20 15:06:30

This begins with material copied from a post on "Iron and Steel on Mars", 20-April-2012 (A new thread, instead of building on top of older works).
There are quite a few contibutions from other people on that thread to this conclusion that I was finally given about printing iron and steel. Actually I mean that for the most part I had a small if any part in it, but I like it.

Quote from that thread:
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I have this information to add:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carbonyl_metallurgy

http://www.space-mining.com/IRONRECOVERY.htm

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alloy
Quote from the above:

History:

A meteorite is shown below a hatchet that was forged from meteoric iron.
Bronze axe 1100 BCThe use of alloys by humans started with the use of meteoric iron, a naturally occurring alloy of nickel and iron. As no metallurgic processes were used to separate iron from nickel, the alloy was used as it was.[7] Meteoric iron could be forged from a red heat to make objects such as tools, weapons, and nails. In many cultures it was shaped by cold hammering into knives and arrowheads. They were often used as anvils. Meteoric iron was very rare and valuable, and difficult for ancient people to work.[8]

More History: (Pattern Welding)

The first known smelting of iron began in Anatolia, around 1800 BC. Called the bloomery process, it produced very soft but ductile wrought iron and, by 800 BC, the technology had spread to Europe. Pig iron, a very hard but brittle alloy of iron and carbon, was being produced in China as early as 1200 BC, but did not arrive in Europe until the Middle Ages. These metals found little practical use until the introduction of crucible steel around 300 BC. These steels were of poor quality, and the introduction of pattern welding, around the 1st century AD, sought to balance the extreme properties of the alloys by laminating them, to create a tougher metal.[11]

Nickle has toxic problems as well I believe. However I did encounter the information that Nickle and Iron are best separated with magnets, which I presume means grinding the Meteor metal very fine, I would think there are limits to the amount of purity easliy achived.

So, I am convinced that you are on the right track for the 3D printer.

I found some more very intersting information concerning Plastics from C02, and a spray on glass with UV protective properties, so I am going to try to find an old thread about greenhouses and wake it up and talk about metals, plastics, and glass spray to make greenhouses and such, which in the end would after all be very valuable, and it appears they could be printed. I am glad I encountered you guys.

Oh an afterthought, maybe a flame with just a bit more oxygen than fuel, could be periodically be put to the surface of the object being printed, to remove a bit of excess carbon. I understand that CO is explosive, but if the Oxygen and pressure levels were kept low, and the CO removed from the area of manufacture reasonably well, perhaps each layer could have a different amount of Carbon and other additives, making a laminated structure, and not causing a explosion or fire. (See Pattern Welding Above).

3D Printers:
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Somebody here said 3D printer, and I converted to liking the idea (Old dog meets new tick and likes it).
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/3D_printing
http://www.cata.com/products/rapid-prot … Kgodvgo60A

The videos really impressed me, and made me understand.

Plastics from CO2?
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http://www.rsc.org/chemistryworld/News/ … 071001.asp
Or Plastics from other sources if practicle, why be restricted. But now you can print your structures with Iron and Steel alloys, and Plastics.

Spay on Glass:
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http://phys.org/news184310039.html
Quote from the above:

(PhysOrg.com) -- Spray-on liquid glass is transparent, non-toxic, and can protect virtually any surface against almost any damage from hazards such as water, UV radiation, dirt, heat, and bacterial infections. The coating is also flexible and breathable, which makes it suitable for use on an enormous array of products.

My Conslusion:
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This is what I have wanted, but did not exactly know I wanted.

Greenhouses (And I havn't even started there)
Ice covered lakes? Anchors in the ice, build metal and plastic bubbles connected to the anchors, spray with a thin coat of glass.

Wire? Print it. Iron is not that great, but as others here have said it could do until copper or aluminum are available.

Cover a sand dune with small greenhouse bubbles, and create a biosphere in Hellas? I think it might work. Collect oxygen and plant life from that? Could be.

Well, I think thats plenty.

Last edited by Void (2012-04-20 22:23:43)

louis · 2012-04-20 18:59:07

I too have come round more to 3D printing, given the recent improvements in technology. Perhaps we can create the plastic out of carbon from the atmosphere and hydrogen in the water.

I am not sure what the problem is with taking steel making machines to Mars. I think they will be more efficient that seeking out the right meteorites, nice though the idea is.

SpaceNut · 2012-04-20 20:10:18

For mars construction from insitu materials go to http://marshome.org/ look to he document library for what you are in search of for works that have been done already.

The Mars Homestead™ Project, the main project of the Mars Foundation™, is developing a unified plan for building the first habitat on Mars by exploiting local materials.

The ultimate goal of the project is to build a growing, permanent settlement beyond the Earth, thus allowing civilization to spread beyond the limits of our small planet.

Void · 2012-04-20 22:14:59

Lewis and Spacenut,

I don't care where there Iron, or Iron equivalant comes from. All I know is that Meteor Iron should be distributed rather uniformly over the surface.
As I have mentioned, I worked in Red Iron (Hemitite) and Taconite mines. I played on the mine dumps. I swam on a pond on top of a mine dump that no longer exists! I swam in the lake in the deep pits. I know of these things more that I know of Meteor iron. I did not ever enter the Soudan mine, but I know of it. If you can get that and the other things, then forget Meteor Iron.

Needing other resources that are locaition specific, then I choose Meteor Iron because it then does not hobble the child with the burden of transit from one location of an essential material to another. In other words, if you find a resource something that is not iron, but you still want iron, meteor iron should be near the special something that you found. Meteor Iron is ubiqutous to the surface as I understand it.

Water it ubiquitous to the high lattitudes. Hellas should have higher air pressure, Meteor Iron, and some water at some locations. That is how I think.

Find a big Iron deposite, great, but now I am thinking how I might have iron in the first few years. Is your iron local to other essential resources? If yes, then fine we are really fortunate.

When I was a little boy, I found extrodinary things on the mine dumps. Samples. I have none of them now, but I remember what they look like. Find a mine in a good location, and I will not resist that.

We have three ranges of ore in Minnesota. Vermillion Range, where the Soudan Mine is, Cayuna Range, where the ore is unfortunately adulterated with Manganese, and the Messabi Range, where I worked, where the Taconite is virgin, has very little contaminants, and of course, I have a side interest in that where I wonder if Taconite ore could be concentrated, Monded, and printed to Iron/Steel Metal parts. I have been away from those places for quite a time, but still a boy remembers his youth. I have to think in terms of Meteor Iron for the Mond process (More or less Mond), because I don't think that Hemmitite is directly responsive to it, but maybe I am wrong about that?

Last edited by Void (2012-04-20 22:53:54)

SpaceNut · 2012-04-20 23:45:01

Your life sounds very interesting to the things that you have seen and done... as I have never been in a mine of any kind to see first hand.

The meteor Iron that you speak of is not all over the place and the rovers and orbiters circlying mars have only found these few...

http://solarsystem.nasa.gov/multimedia/ … M_ID=10293

http://marsrover.nasa.gov/newsroom/pres … 0119a.html

The pitted, basketball-size object is mostly made of iron and nickel according to readings from spectrometers on the rover.

We have found that mars has several types of iron compounds. Rust is FeO2 but there is the iron oxide mineral called hematite (Fe2O3) which forms on Earth in several ways, most involving water.

The BlueBerries
http://www.astrobio.net/exclusive/888/iron-blueberries

http://www.psrd.hawaii.edu/Mar03/Meridiani.html
Then there is the Gray Iron Oxide in Meridiani

But the concentrations of these are low on the order of 15% or less.... and here is just one thing we can do....

http://science.nasa.gov/science-news/sc … 03mar99_1/
Bringing Mars into the Iron Age; Science base could quickly become self-powered

SpaceNut · 2012-04-21 00:14:31

Now I would like to get back to the first posting of which I believe you would make domes for use to create biospheres from insitu materials. Along with a support framing would be the need for glass materials.
http://www.marsroverblog.com/discuss-13 … e-air.html

Dark regions on Mars made of glass, 10 million square kilometres of the Martian surface is believed to comprise of volcanic glass. Studies of images from the Mars Express orbiter have helped Briony Horgan and Jim Bell of Arizona State University determine the true nature of the mysterious dark regions of the planet's surface - sand-sized grains of glass coated with silica-rich "rinds". It is thought that the material may have been produced by volcanoes interacting with snow and ice.

Past newmars topics on glass:
http://www.newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.php?id=5769
http://www.newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.php?id=113
http://www.newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.php?id=225

louis · 2012-04-21 05:15:30

http://www.golder.com/af/en/modules.php … &sp_id=212

This isn't scientific, but the surface of Mars reminds me of the Mauritanian iron ore fields (See above image). Everything I have read suggests that iron ore is pretty ubiquitous on Mars. What we need is a sophisticated scaled down furnace that can handle low grade ore (because we don't want to spend time looking for high grade ore). It doesn't matter if it makes the most expensive iron and steel ever seen, it will still be cheap compared with shipping iron and steel goods to Mars.

The scaled down machine would need to smelt, remove all impurities and introduce carbon - then allow for pouring and pressing on a small scale. Could we use local basalt for casting rather than bring casting moulds with us?

SpaceNut · 2012-04-21 10:19:51

Even more favors of iron as in Magnetite (Fe3O4), Hematite (Fe2O3), Goethite, Limonite or Siderite.
http://peruiron.com/rnd/ore_en.html

Great images of each

Void · 2012-04-21 15:08:10

SpaceNut said:

The meteor Iron that you speak of is not all over the place and the rovers and orbiters circlying mars have only found these few...

But have an alternate argument:
http://www.colonyworlds.com/2008/09/iron-on-mars.html

The article explicitly states that I cannot quote from it.

However, the core argument is well enough known, if you have big meteors, and if little meteors have been falling for 4.5 Billion years, and if the atmosphere of Mars has been dry and devoid of Oxygen, then it is logical that a magnet would pick up such meteor iron, like iron filings. I am not really interested in the big pieces, except as science data. The small fragment iron should be everywhere and anywhere, except the polar ice caps, of course, those would be at the bottom of that.

I do know that fine iron/nickle particles could be ground down finer and some of the Nickle content could be removed.

Then with the printer, some first needed items, some tools, some angle iron, some tube, some rod, from those make a two wheel hand cart. And so on.

Yes in time move on to a ore body, when you are ready and have the diversity of tools needed for it.

Last edited by Void (2012-04-21 15:16:09)

Void · 2012-04-21 15:23:48

Louis said:

This isn't scientific, but the surface of Mars reminds me of the Mauritanian iron ore fields (See above image). Everything I have read suggests that iron ore is pretty ubiquitous on Mars. What we need is a sophisticated scaled down furnace that can handle low grade ore (because we don't want to spend time looking for high grade ore). It doesn't matter if it makes the most expensive iron and steel ever seen, it will still be cheap compared with shipping iron and steel goods to Mars.
The scaled down machine would need to smelt, remove all impurities and introduce carbon - then allow for pouring and pressing on a small scale. Could we use local basalt for casting rather than bring casting moulds with us?

Well it is not a case of having only hot water or only cold water, by all means, and every means.

However I do have a bias for the first few years towards Meteor Iron, unless what you propose fall into the laps of the settlers.

I am very excited about a printer which could print angle iron, plate, tube and rod. With those and some millwrite and blacksmith tools, you could make quite a few things, things that would be usefull when you were ready to do a real mine.

There is another issue as well, mining can be dangerous, and injuries costly. That is not a show stopper, but when choosing a technology that is part of the economic calculation as well. What do you do if someone cripples themselves? Now you have lost something of value.

If your ore were of a nature where you could shovel it up that is a plus. If you must blast it and then carry the rock to a facility to crush and grind it, that requires a lot of equipment and work and it is dangerous.

Void · 2012-04-21 15:32:26

SpaceNut said:

Now I would like to get back to the first posting of which I believe you would make domes for use to create biospheres from insitu materials. Along with a support framing would be the need for glass materials.
http://www.marsroverblog.com/discuss-13 … e-air.html

Dark regions on Mars made of glass, 10 million square kilometres of the Martian surface is believed to comprise of volcanic glass. Studies of images from the Mars Express orbiter have helped Briony Horgan and Jim Bell of Arizona State University determine the true nature of the mysterious dark regions of the planet's surface - sand-sized grains of glass coated with silica-rich "rinds". It is thought that the material may have been produced by volcanoes interacting with snow and ice.

Past newmars topics on glass:
http://www.newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.php?id=5769
http://www.newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.php?id=113
http://www.newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.php?id=225
Offline

Well, that really is good, but I am at this time thinking along other lines. Did you notice the spray glass?
It may be possible that things can be made of transparent and translucent plastic, and sprayed with this glass to improve survivability in the Martian Environment.

Spay on Glass:
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(PhysOrg.com) -- Spray-on liquid glass is transparent, non-toxic, and can protect virtually any surface against almost any damage from hazards such as water, UV radiation, dirt, heat, and bacterial infections. The coating is also flexible and breathable, which makes it suitable for use on an enormous array of products.
The liquid glass spray (technically termed “SiO2 ultra-thin layering”) consists of almost pure silicon dioxide (silica, the normal compound in glass) extracted from quartz sand. Water or ethanol is added, depending on the type of surface to be coated. There are no additives, and the nano-scale glass coating bonds to the surface because of the quantum forces involved. According to the manufacturers, liquid glass has a long-lasting antibacterial effect because microbes landing on the surface cannot divide or replicate easily.
Liquid glass was invented in Turkey and the patent is held by Nanopool, a family-owned German company. Research on the product was carried out at the Saarbrücken Institute for New Materials. Nanopool is already in negotiations in the UK with a number of companies and with the National Health Service, with a view to its widespread adoption.
The liquid glass spray produces a water-resistant coating only around 100 nanometers (15-30 molecules) thick. On this nanoscale the glass is highly flexible and breathable. The coating is environmentally harmless and non-toxic, and easy to clean using only water or a simple wipe with a damp cloth. It repels bacteria, water and dirt, and resists heat, UV light and even acids. UK project manager with Nanopool, Neil McClelland, said soon almost every product you purchase will be coated with liquid glass.
Food processing companies in Germany have already carried out trials of the spray, and found sterile surfaces that usually needed to be cleaned with strong bleach to keep them sterile needed only a hot water rinse if they were coated with liquid glass. The levels of sterility were higher for the glass-coated surfaces, and the surfaces remained sterile for months.
Other organizations, such as a train company and a hotel chain in the UK, and a hamburger chain in Germany, are also testing liquid glass for a wide range of uses. A year-long trial of the spray in a Lancashire hospital also produced “very promising” results for a range of applications including coatings for equipment, medical implants, catheters, sutures and bandages. The war graves association in the UK is investigating using the spray to treat stone monuments and grave stones, since trials have shown the coating protects against weathering and graffiti. Trials in Turkey are testing the product on monuments such as the Ataturk Mausoleum in Ankara.

The liquid glass coating is breathable, which means it can be used on plants and seeds. Trials in vineyards have found spraying vines increases their resistance to fungal diseases, while other tests have shown sprayed seeds germinate and grow faster than untreated seeds, and coated wood is not attacked by termites. Other vineyard applications include coating corks with liquid glass to prevent “corking” and contamination of wine. The spray cannot be seen by the naked eye, which means it could also be used to treat clothing and other materials to make them stain-resistant. McClelland said you can “pour a bottle of wine over an expensive silk shirt and it will come right off”.
In the home, spray-on glass would eliminate the need for scrubbing and make most cleaning products obsolete. Since it is available in both water-based and alcohol-based solutions, it can be used in the oven, in bathrooms, tiles, sinks, and almost every other surface in the home, and one spray is said to last a year.
Liquid glass spray is perhaps the most important nanotechnology product to emerge to date. It will be available in DIY stores in Britain soon, with prices starting at around £5 ($8 US). Other outlets, such as many supermarkets, may be unwilling to stock the products because they make enormous profits from cleaning products that need to be replaced regularly, and liquid glass would make virtually all of them obsolete.

More information: Nanopool: http://www.nanopoo … uk/index.htm

Last edited by Void (2012-04-21 15:38:56)

Void · 2012-04-21 15:46:16

Well to be honest, I am not a big fan of big domes. Not at this time.

I think that quarters should be safe, and that adding too much window space for plant life endangers the lives of people and would require constant vigilance and testing and repairing to maintain air pressure. I also think that the construction costs of effort would be prohibitive until later in the estabilishment of the culture. I also think that high structures invite slip and fall injuries.

Yes, such "Greenhouse" kits could be delivered at great expense from Earth, no, they would not maintain very safely or in a cost effective way.

Yes they could eventually be constructed from materials native to Mars, but still the amount of effort for the payoff does not seem to me to make them a prudent investment.

I believe that quarters could have small specialty gardens, with windows, but preferably with indoor lighting. This would be done in part for maintaining phychological heath for the settlers.

Otherwise, I am inclined to consider a batch process for gardening, for a number of reasons.

1) With plastics and 3D printers, mass production of large bottles could occur. Repitition in the making of the same bottle.
2) The bottles could also be converted into terrariums.
3) The bottles can be loaded up as terrariums.
4) The bottles can be sprayed with liquid glass for protection.
5) The bottles can be put outside.
6) The bottles can have a protective tent outside that they are put in, the protective tent would have also been sprayed with liquid glass.

Each container would have it's own pressurization and stock of chemicals. Perhap part of the bottle would be occupied by decaying organic matter and Mushrooms, and the other part by green plants.

I think that this would be a good first expansion of gardening abilities.

Other needed parts are:
Plastic poles for tent poles.
A reflective plastic sheet on the bottom of the tent, where more sunlight is reflected to the bottles to make up for attenuation and also that sunlight is dimmer on Mars.
Water pillows. Pillows of sterile water, put also into the tent to help keep off freezing temperatures at night.

Crazy?

Get a pepsi bottle, a clear one, empty it, take the label off. Now think about sizing it up.

Beyond that my next expectation would be to have a 6 foot nominal "Mold" and to have a plastic printer print sections that can be socketed into each other, so as to make a very long tube, one that even humans could walk into. Each section glued to the other, and then perhaps that attached to an airlock. A person entering such a structure might still consider a counterpressure suit.

Anyway here are some connected websites that might help make it seem possible.

http://www.mobot.org/jwcross/duckweed/n … sition.htm

http://tealco.net/window_edible_herb_garden.html

http://herbcompanion.com/Gardening/HERB … GLASS.aspx

Now before you go off into giggle fits, remember that the bottles are also bottles, and there will be a need for bottles to store chemicals. If more than is needed are created, and they can be used to grow some food, then it is worth considering.

And I also favor a plastics intensive industrial base because I anticipate that such a process will naturally leak greenhouse gasses into the atmosphere as a by product.

http://www.pallensmith.com/articles/terrarium

Finally I anticipate a large "Humididore", in the bottom of Hellas, mostly unpressurized, and yet capable of allowing a "Crop" to be wattered with ice water. Most likely a tundra grass or something like that. Failing that then moss or linchens. Any boil off would have to be recaptured and condensed. Anyway, that "Tent" would most likely be a plastic tent with spray on glass. It would be a step in the right direction, towards a someday outdoors farming effort when the bottom of Hellas had a pressure of 20 Millibars or more.

Other pressurized structures that humans can be in? Large cornfields for instance? I am not thinking that that is a great notion untill the "Martians" get their "Sea Legs" and invent new technologies, neccessity being what it is.

Last edited by Void (2012-04-21 16:22:05)

SpaceNut · 2012-04-21 20:50:40

Here is a couple of the older greenhouse threads that do have some plastic meantioned in them...

http://www.newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.php?id=5512
http://www.newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.php?id=5213

RobertDyck is very knowledgeable in plastics and was a member of The Mars Homestead™ Project....

louis · 2012-04-22 04:37:49

Void wrote:

Well to be honest, I am not a big fan of big domes. Not at this time.
I think that quarters should be safe, and that adding too much window space for plant life endangers the lives of people and would require constant vigilance and testing and repairing to maintain air pressure. I also think that the construction costs of effort would be prohibitive until later in the estabilishment of the culture. I also think that high structures invite slip and fall injuries.
Yes, such "Greenhouse" kits could be delivered at great expense from Earth, no, they would not maintain very safely or in a cost effective way.
Yes they could eventually be constructed from materials native to Mars, but still the amount of effort for the payoff does not seem to me to make them a prudent investment.
I believe that quarters could have small specialty gardens, with windows, but preferably with indoor lighting. This would be done in part for maintaining phychological heath for the settlers.
Otherwise, I am inclined to consider a batch process for gardening, for a number of reasons.
1) With plastics and 3D printers, mass production of large bottles could occur. Repitition in the making of the same bottle.
2) The bottles could also be converted into terrariums.
3) The bottles can be loaded up as terrariums.
4) The bottles can be sprayed with liquid glass for protection.
5) The bottles can be put outside.
6) The bottles can have a protective tent outside that they are put in, the protective tent would have also been sprayed with liquid glass.
Each container would have it's own pressurization and stock of chemicals. Perhap part of the bottle would be occupied by decaying organic matter and Mushrooms, and the other part by green plants.
I think that this would be a good first expansion of gardening abilities.
Other needed parts are:
Plastic poles for tent poles.
A reflective plastic sheet on the bottom of the tent, where more sunlight is reflected to the bottles to make up for attenuation and also that sunlight is dimmer on Mars.
Water pillows. Pillows of sterile water, put also into the tent to help keep off freezing temperatures at night.
Crazy?
Get a pepsi bottle, a clear one, empty it, take the label off. Now think about sizing it up.
Beyond that my next expectation would be to have a 6 foot nominal "Mold" and to have a plastic printer print sections that can be socketed into each other, so as to make a very long tube, one that even humans could walk into. Each section glued to the other, and then perhaps that attached to an airlock. A person entering such a structure might still consider a counterpressure suit.
Anyway here are some connected websites that might help make it seem possible.
http://www.mobot.org/jwcross/duckweed/n … sition.htm
http://tealco.net/window_edible_herb_garden.html
http://herbcompanion.com/Gardening/HERB … GLASS.aspx
Now before you go off into giggle fits, remember that the bottles are also bottles, and there will be a need for bottles to store chemicals. If more than is needed are created, and they can be used to grow some food, then it is worth considering.
And I also favor a plastics intensive industrial base because I anticipate that such a process will naturally leak greenhouse gasses into the atmosphere as a by product.
http://www.pallensmith.com/articles/terrarium
Finally I anticipate a large "Humididore", in the bottom of Hellas, mostly unpressurized, and yet capable of allowing a "Crop" to be wattered with ice water. Most likely a tundra grass or something like that. Failing that then moss or linchens. Any boil off would have to be recaptured and condensed. Anyway, that "Tent" would most likely be a plastic tent with spray on glass. It would be a step in the right direction, towards a someday outdoors farming effort when the bottom of Hellas had a pressure of 20 Millibars or more.
Other pressurized structures that humans can be in? Large cornfields for instance? I am not thinking that that is a great notion untill the "Martians" get their "Sea Legs" and invent new technologies, neccessity being what it is.

Some great ideas there.

It got me thinking of "hamster balls", computer controlled agri-balls that might follow the light and return to base...they would be pressurised.

There must surely be somewhere on Mars some narrow gorges - let's set 20-30 metres across, 50 metres high and 100-200 metres long. We might be able to build concrete walls, like dams, at each end, construct a flat floor, place on top of that a top soil (mostly manufactured on Mars) and then install a glass roof. After that, pressurise and humidify the atmosphere. This might be a relatively quick way of creating mini-worlds.

I will take a look at your links.

Void · 2012-04-22 10:17:30

SpaceNut said:

Here is a couple of the older greenhouse threads that do have some plastic meantioned in them...
http://www.newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.php?id=5512
http://www.newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.php?id=5213
RobertDyck is very knowledgeable in plastics and was a member of The Mars Homestead™ Project....
Offline

That is helpful. One thing I have noticed about this site is there is a lot of burried materials, but finding them is not easy. Not a criticism, but should the high powers ever have the time an energy to address that it would be an enhancement.

I would be happy to be schooled in plastics.

Void · 2012-04-22 10:27:33

Louis said:

It got me thinking of "hamster balls", computer controlled agri-balls that might follow the light and return to base...they would be pressurised.
There must surely be somewhere on Mars some narrow gorges - let's set 20-30 metres across, 50 metres high and 100-200 metres long. We might be able to build concrete walls, like dams, at each end, construct a flat floor, place on top of that a top soil (mostly manufactured on Mars) and then install a glass roof. After that, pressurise and humidify the atmosphere. This might be a relatively quick way of creating mini-worlds.

"Hamster balls". That would be a possible expansion of the jars, more mobile, able to cover more surface, more automated.

I have also thought about a robot gardener inside of the containers, lets say for duckweed, if you had a subchamber which was on the dark side, and cool or cold, refrigeration or a freezer, and so the robot takes duckweed and refirigerates it or puts it in the freezer and lets more duckweed grow. Something like that. That concept could also be upgraded to other vegtibles as well. Perticularlly if the bottles had an influx of nutrients.

However, it is perhaps best to start small with hand carry bottles, (Maybe a two wheel cart or a wheelbarrow), and then as the population rises move towards larger devices, and permanent installations such as your canyon with walls, floor and roof.

Perhaps for some produce the small bottles would be kept, but not so much for plants that require polinators. Those would be best grown in the device you have mentioned.

So I can think of four lines of logic for growing plants:
1) Inside the habitation, most likely with artificial lights, but perhaps a few plants in the shelter windows, this being done for pyscological reasons as well as for the food.
2) A batch process with "Bottle Terrariums", because this could be a practicle way to expand agriculture in the beginning and their may be a few plants that would do well with this.
3) Your covered canyon, since, there are some plants that would be best grown in Earth simulated normalicy, with polinating organisms.
4) Tented experimental ice water irrigation, most likely at the bottom of Hellas, to begin to develop an organism which can be of economic value, and might be more and more adapted to such an environment.
5) Covered water enclosures, such as an artificial Antarctic Dry Valley lake, but I will do a post on a fresh water pond, which would be in the same family.

As for 1 or 3, I have read that the "Bananna" has everything a human needs to survive. I cannot confirm that but it is an interesting notion.

I will talk further in another post about tented ice water irrigation.

Last edited by Void (2012-04-22 22:33:14)

Void · 2012-04-22 11:23:58

Semi-Outdoor irrigated agriculture on Mars.

I am only making this post because to my mind the bottom of the depression Hellas on Mars comes rather close to a place where complex plants could grow, if the UV light problem could be delt with, and if it were a bit warmer, and also wetter.

I guess that at some point, if Mars were terraformed, some kind of irrigated crop could be grown, and I want to think about what that could be.

As for Terraformed, I think that I have read that the polar caps should have enough CO2 for the average to go to at least 11 Millibars, and the bottom of Hellas to 20-21 Millibars. I also recall claims on such sites as these that if the soil and crust were to warm up from terraforming, they would release some additional atmosphere. And then there could be other interventions.

However I am going to presume the present not quite 12 Millibars in the bottom of Hellas, and a potential future value of 21 Millibars, upon greenhouse gass terraformation.

I am going to presume that until a significant Ozone layer is somehow caused to exist, living plants will require the minimum protection of a tent with UV filtering properties. I speculate that that would be of a plastic, with a glass spray that is mentioned in previous posts on this thread. Alternately of course Earth type green houses made of standard glass, and mostly unpressurized. (Although such houses could easily be pressurized a few extra Millibars I presume.

I am presuming a water source, either melted glacier ice or ground ice, or I suppose a Arteasian well, if Mars has ground water. After all, Hellas goes about as low as you can on Mars. Arteasian water on Mars could likely be salty. One final anternative for water would be a solar still, that is plastic over a hole in the ground where heat causes himidity to "evaporate" off of grains of sand. I am not sure of that one though, so for now I will stick to melt water and perhaps Arteasian wells.

By the way, I think it may be possible that there could be Arteasian springs in Hellas. Possible. They would have to emerge through thick permafrost, and most likely would have to be salty to do so.

Anyway a largely unpressurized structure would as mentioned function to hold in Humidity, filter out UV, and could allow Nitrogen percentages inside of the structure to be elivated if the plants inside were favored by that.

Here are some thoughts on plants that could be tried.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cladonia_rangiferina

http://www.eattheweeds.com/edible-clado … -lichen-2/

http://beyondpenguins.ehe.osu.edu/issue … -antarctic

Reindeer Moss (A Lichen), is marginally edible, and grows rather slow.

Grasses from the Arctic and Antarctic are of interest, but they would have to propigate without polinators. I am thinking Hay, just maybe somehow to domesticate and engineer them to produce grain.

I anticipate the need for genetic engineering in these cases, to increase the growth rate for the Reindeer Moss. It can be processed to make it more edible.

Many of these plants have slow growth because of a lack of water, not cold. So, if you could alter them genetically to prosper from added watering and fertilizer, perhaps the growth rates could be increased for a domesticated variety.

In Hellas, the Mid-Summer sun effect woud be about twice as long as for the high lattitudes on Earth. This is favorable, but of course the winters would then be double long.

I am looking for edible Reindeer moss, Hay, and even grain. However for grain there is the polinator problem. I guess I am not sure that a fan blowing could not do it, for the grass, but I really have reservations on that. Perhaps genetic engineering would do something like the seedless orange, but of course with grain you want the seeds. In such a case becomes a real problem. Perhaps the seed crops could be grown inside of pressurized enclosures, and then the seed planted to these unpressurized enclosures would still somehow produce a sort of "Grain/Fruit".

As for watering, I am thinking Ice water, or in the case of salt water the water could be even colder, but I think that few of these plants would tollerate salt water colder than 0 DegC. It would take some big time engineering for that. I prefer to think of fresh ice water. Should it boil, then a method to pump the excess vapors out and pressurize them back to liquid is most likely required. So that the water can be recycled back to the enclosure.

I know all this is fanciful, and normally I stick to a more consirvative expectations, but I just wanted to stretch the imagination a bit and see if somehow a precursor to outdoor irrigated agriculature could be planned for.

Last edited by Void (2012-04-22 11:38:38)

Void · 2012-04-22 13:24:04

Tented fresh water pond.

Related to a degree to the "Antarctic Dry Valley Lake", which in other places I have proposed, is a much more humble proposal.

Dig a ditch, and put in it some means to keep the water from draining. If it is in ground with ice as places on Mars might provide, then the permafrost might do this.

Put a tent with UV protection over that. It should also help to keep liquid water or ice from evaporating out of the enclosure.

On Earth, fresh water with ice over it can have water temperatures as high as 39 degrees Fahrenheight. Higher than that and the water starts turning over.

For this "Ditch-Pond" I might prefer a layer of ice. That ice can be very clear. Perhaps 1 inch, 3 inches, 6 inches, a few feet.

If a water source were available, then this mode of aquaculture is possible.

I could be wrong but I think that on Mars a layer of ice 1.2 feet thick should add a pressure of 10 millibars, so the pressure at the bottom of such an ice layer would be in the bottom of Hellas somewhat above 20 millibars. So the amount of disolved gases could be less than or equivalant to that before it would come out of solution. Nitrogen content could be elivated, if that would favor an organism. A certain amount of Oxygen could be kept in those waters, for organisms which require Oxygen for their motabilism when the sun is not shining.

Fertilizer could be added of course.

I am sure simple micro-organisms could grow in that, and perhaps some scheme could be cooked up to use them for food, or some other resource.

However, I would much prefer that a complex green plant be found which would be able to live at the bottom of such a "Trench-Pond". I don't think that humans are very fond of ice water, and of course on most places on Earth most fresh water ponds are covered with snow if it is winter, so the solar flux is very reduced.

However, I am guessing that somewhere on the planet might be found such a plant.

Further, if this aparatus were to overheat, it could be cooled with an Ammonia/water coolant, and that boiled to generate electricity. Of course to make that pay, the installation would have to be very large.

If not the cooling system, then shades might be used in the summer.

Last edited by Void (2012-04-22 22:26:10)

louis · 2012-04-22 14:10:44

Void wrote:

Louis said:
It got me thinking of "hamster balls", computer controlled agri-balls that might follow the light and return to base...they would be pressurised.
There must surely be somewhere on Mars some narrow gorges - let's set 20-30 metres across, 50 metres high and 100-200 metres long. We might be able to build concrete walls, like dams, at each end, construct a flat floor, place on top of that a top soil (mostly manufactured on Mars) and then install a glass roof. After that, pressurise and humidify the atmosphere. This might be a relatively quick way of creating mini-worlds.
"Hamster balls". That would be a possible expansion of the jars, more mobile, able to cover more surface, more automated.
I have also thought about a robot gardener inside of the containers, lets say for duckweed, if you had a subchamber which was on the dark side, and cool or cold, refrigeration or a freezer, and so the robot takes duckweed and refirigerates it or puts it in the freezer and lets more duckweed grow. Something like that. That concept could also be upgraded to other vegtibles as well. Perticularlly if the bottles had an influx of nutrients.
However, it is perhaps best to start small with hand carry bottles, (Maybe a two wheel cart or a wheelbarrow), and then as the population rises move towards larger devices, and permanent installations such as your canyon with walls, floor and roof.
Perhaps for some produce the small bottles would be kept, but not so much for plants that require polinators. Those would be best grown in the device you have mentioned.
So I can think of four lines of logic for growing plants:
1) Inside the habitation, most likely with artificial lights, but perhaps a few plants in the shelter windows, this being done for pyscological reasons as well as for the food.
2) A batch process with "Bottle Terrariums", because this could be a practicle way to expand agriculture in the beginning and their may be a few plants that would do well with this.
3) Your covered canyon, since, there are some plants that would be best grown in Earth simulated normalicy, with polinating ornisms.
4) Tented experimental ice water irrigation, most likely at the bottom of Hellas, to begin to develop an organism which can be of economic value, and might be more and more adapted to such an environment.
5) Covered water enclosures, such as an artificial Antarctic Dry Valley lake, but I will do a post on a fresh water pond, which would be in the same family.
As for 1 or 3, I have read that the "Bananna" has everything a human needs to survive. I cannot confirm that but it is an interesting notion.
I will talk further in another post about tented ice water irrigation.

I think I was brain storming on the hamster balls, but I guess if you had some central heated pen, near the base habitat, where they could return at night, it might make sense, at least in the six months of summer.

louis · 2012-04-22 14:21:54

Void wrote:

Tented fresh water pond.
Related to a degree to the "Antarctic Dry Valley Lake", which in other places I have proposed, is a much more humble proposal.
Dig a ditch, and put in it some means to keep the water from draining. If it is in ground with ice as places on Mars might provide, then the permafrost might do this.
Put a tent with UV protection over that. It should also help to keep liquid water or ice from evaporating out of the enclosure.
On Earth, fresh water with ice over it can have water temperatures as high as 39 degrees Fahrenheight. Higher than that and the water starts turning over.
For this "Ditch-Pond" I might prefer a layer of ice. That ice can be very clear. Perhaps 1 inch, 3 inches, 6 inches, a few feet.
I a water source were available, then this mode of aquaculture is possible.
I could be wrong but I think that on Mars a layer of ice 1.2 feet thick should add a pressure of 10 millibars, so the pressure at the bottom of such an ice layer would be in the bottom of Hellas somewhat above 20 millibars. So the amount of disolved gases could be less than or equivalant to that before it would come out of solution. Nitrogen content could be elivated, if that would favor an organism. A certain amount of Oxygen could be kept in those waters, for organisms which require Oxygen for their motabilism when the sun is not shining.
Fertilizer could be added of course.
I am sure simple micro-organisms could grow in that, and perhaps some scheme could be cooked up to use them for food, or some other resource.
However, I would much prefer that a complex green plant be found which would be able to live at the bottom of such a "Trench-Pond". I don't think that humans are very fond of ice water, and of course on most places on Earth most fresh water ponds are covered with snow if it is winter, so the solar flux is very reduced.
However, I am guessing that somewhere on the planet might be found such a plant.
Further, if this aparatus were to overheat, it could be cooled with an Ammonia/water coolant, and that boiled to generate electricity. Of course to make that pay, the installation would have to be very large.
If not the cooling system, then shades might be used in the summer.

I was looking at rice - some wild rice varieties are almost completely submerged.

http://natures-water.com/education_info … index.html

Not sure how we deal with the sublimation problem, but maybe just laying anchored plastic sheeting over water would be enough? Perhaps we could slowly accummulate CO2 at higher pressure under the plastic sheeting. Weighing it down at the edges underwater creates an effective seal (I think).

Huge reflectors on the edge of the basin could reflect solar radiation down on to the rice paddy.

Void · 2012-04-22 19:31:26

Yes, if the enclosure were more pressurized, and the ice melted, then quite a few pond plants perhaps. This has the advantage of the water warding off frost at night.

However, for an ice covered pond, I guess I would be hoping for some large type sea weed such as might be found at certain polar locations. However those are salt water to my understanding. I would rather have a fresh water type, but if pushed then salty sea level water. There is salt in the soil I believe at Mars.

The open water one does have some significant merrit, but of course the elivated vapor pressure of the water at higher temperatures, requires a clever canopy.

Perhaps a bubble wrap with stones added? Printed, so that it weights down the surface, but because it would have some hollow bubbles it would float on the surface of the water? But then allowances need to be made for above water plants, I think it is worth thinking about. Lets say folds in the bubble wrap, and then stripes weighted with stones? Air injected into the folds?

I hadn't thought of that at all. A sort of waterbed mattress with big air bubbles.

SpaceNut · 2012-04-22 20:14:20

The older threads can be searched for by using the advance search http://www.google.com/advanced_search?hl=en on google for the website that you would like the string ends up looking something like this... greenhouse site:http://www.newmars.com/forums

Lious the hamster ball sounds interesting but I think that finding a perfect spot to select to dam and cover would be hard to find....

Void · 2012-04-22 22:19:40

Thanks for all the patience. And thanks for the tip.

louis · 2012-04-23 01:55:50

SpaceNut wrote:

The older threads can be searched for by using the advance search http://www.google.com/advanced_search?hl=en on google for the website that you would like the string ends up looking something like this... greenhouse site:http://www.newmars.com/forums
Lious the hamster ball sounds interesting but I think that finding a perfect spot to select to dam and cover would be hard to find....

Yes, I think the "dam and cover" gorge project would be a few years or maybe decades down the line.

Void · 2012-04-23 15:07:51

Well, I thought I was done, but I decided to do a bit more research to fill in some things I left blank.

Before I get into the topic I am more interested in now (Tundra Ponds),
Here is another description of a Antarctic Dry Valley Lake:
http://phys.org/news/2012-04-carbon-con … ctica.html

It says the ice is 3-6 meters thick. one on Mars could be that thick, or if input from solar concentrators was used to further heat the lake, the ice could be much thinner to allow more light in.

It says that the fresher colder layer on top is nutrient poor. However humans could easily put more nutrients into that layer.

It says that the bottom layer lacks Oxygen. If this matters, then humans could arange to add oxygen. For instance if they wanted to make an artificial Ocean vent community, or a cold seep.

Antarctic Lakes such as Lake Bonnie have microbial matts. I believe that they would have more sophisticated plants, but they are isolated, and also, from time to time the lakes are destroyed I believe. So evolution does not have a method for continuity, and also transplantation is unlikely.

Here is a PDF, if you can get it to load. It is rather sciency, but I like the pictures. Anyway I can grasp some of it.
http://aslo.org/lo/toc/vol_51/issue_4/1801.pdf

Tundra Ponds:

Well yes the tundra tends to be half aquatic in the summer in many cases, due to the retention of surface water by permafrost, which inhibits drainage.
Here are some links I liked:
www.blueplanetbiomes.org/tundra_plant_heading.htm

http://www.blueplanetbiomes.org/arctic_moss.htm

http://www.arctic.uoguelph.ca/cpl/arcti … owmoss.htm

The artic moss is of interest, I think it could put up with being in a pond on Mars, maybe. But in it's natural situation it is very slow growing. However a domesticated variety which is fertilized and given a longer growing season might do better. Genetic engineering is a thought.

http://www.tropica.com/en/advising/site … capes.aspx
Nice pictures. Some of these plants might be adapted, or it suggests that there might be others more suitable.

Here I am most likely getting over optimistic, but still it is worth thinking about. Obviously my optimism neglects the fact that this picture lacks an ice layer, but still.....:

I guess in it's simplest form I think of a series of long ponds connected by pipes, and covered with an ice layer, and on the sides a raised berm and over that a tarp like covering, one draped over the berms, and anchored by tent pegs, and with soil shoveled over the edges to seal it. Perhaps enough head room for a human in a counterpressure suit to pass under the "Tarp". (Transparent film with UV protective properties, and humidity retention properties).

This could produce both Oxygen for the people, and also green organic matter which should be possible to use for something.

Sort of a protected, irrigated, tundra-pond scheme.

This would start with ground ice in Hellas (Or other places), size up to glaciers, and finally tap the south polar ice cap. Imagine the whole of Hellas irrigated in this manner. In times, also the plants grown would be domesticated to be more edible, and more useful.

Last edited by Void (2012-04-24 13:15:35)

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