Ares IV - MLLV - The Dark Horse

Commodore · 2008-02-29 23:59:01

Take Wiki for what its worth, but I just stumbled on this, and for the life of me couldn't remember it ever being mentioned, nor could I find a thread on it. So I figure it deserves the full once over.

NASA quietly sets up budget for Ares IV lunar crew launch vehicle with 2017 test flight target

Launch vehicle could send lunar lander direct to the Moon
NASA is budgeting for the development of a more powerful "Ares IV" crew launch vehicle (CLV) that could be test-flown in the second quarter of 2017, Flight International can exclusively reveal.
The proposed Ares IV would use the core stage from the Ares V heavylift launcher, two five-segment solid rocket boosters and the upper stage from the Ares I CLV to launch the Block 2 lunar mission Orion crew exploration vehicle. The 113m (367ft)-tall Ares IV would be capable of launching 41,100kg (90,420lb) to 240km (385 miles), with maximum g during ascent of 4.92 and core, upper stage separation at 327s, for direct trans-lunar injection.
The Ares IV, which is about 2.40m taller than the Apollo-era Saturn V, addresses the operational problem of Ares V's Earth departure stage (EDS), and its lunar lander, staying in low Earth orbit (LEO) for up to three months. This requirement, revealed in October on Flightglobal.com, adds mass and complexity to the EDS because of the need for long-term cryogenic propellant storage. That is necessary as under the Constellation architecture Ares V would be launched first and delays in sending the Ares I could see a period of weeks or even months before Orion docks with the EDS and its lunar module in preparation for trans-lunar injection from LEO.
"Ares IV is a study-level effort and not formally part of our baseline today. No definitive decisions have been made, and no specific requirements for such a mission defined. It will remain under study for the foreseeable future, but does represent an interesting capability," says NASA Constellation programme manager Jeffrey Hanley. While the programme has examined many launcher options, only the Ares IV is included in budgets along with the approved Ares I and V.
The new booster could eliminate the Ares V and its EDS. Instead a second Ares IV launch would send the lunar lander, possibly named Artemis, directly to the Moon. After two Ares IV launches, one for Orion and one for Artemis, the vehicles would rendezvous and dock in lunar orbit. In the Apollo programme the crew and service module spacecraft docked with the lunar module in Earth orbit.
If the Ares I was unable to launch the Block 1 Orion International Space Station mission variant, an Ares IV without its SRBs could be used. But NASA has denied that Ares I is not powerful enough to launch the Block 1 and 2 variants despite Orion project manager Caris Hatfield admitting that Orion is about 1,300kg over weight.
Constellation programme budget information and Ares IV schematics have been passed to Flight International following disquiet over the transparency of presentations at the NASA/American Institute of Aeronautics and Astronautics' second space exploration conference in Houston in December.

Space.com: NASA Studies Early Moon Shot for New Space Capsule

Opens up a few doors I think.

cIclops · 2008-03-01 01:42:31

Yes, it was discussed a while ago. IIRC this is was an internal study that was leaked on other forums as proof that Ares I / Ares V was being abandoned. As usual the context was ignored, and NASA are not building this design. See the following discussion on the next page after that article.

The board search is not very good, try using a google search string like this: site:http://www.newmars.com/forums/ "Ares IV"

SpaceNut · 2008-03-01 08:11:05

Yup, I do remember the Flight International article and gaetanomarano
will as well as it's design was without the newer 5 segment srb which he did not want to develope. It also made it more apollo like in that the system was a single rocket. It was less capable of a moon mission but was about the same as the old LM of the apollo era doing away with the Ares I crew taxi.
Trouble was for a quick turn design the Rs68 engines needed to be modified as they were not man rated. Second stage engines still needed to be developed and so much more. Not much of the process would have been different than the current path we are on except the eventual destination of Mars once playing on the moon is done could not have been done with the Ares IV system as it did not have the throwing payload capability that a mars mission needs.

GCNRevenger · 2008-03-01 11:25:09

You can't use four-segment boosters on the Ares-IV/V core either without some serious structural changes.

Commodore · 2008-03-07 16:55:41

I think a mid range launcher is going to be essential to making full use of the Ares V payload capability. Having a launcher that can put a massive amount of payload to orbit means nothing if you can't get it to your destination. Particularity with the obvious advantage of using spent stages as cheap wet workshop modules to expand surface installations.

If we where to launch a payload taking full advantage of the Ares V, something in the 120 ton range to LEO, with only enough fuel to maintain its orbit for a time, like the Progress does for the ISS, how much fuel would we need to launch in the form of a dedicated EDS to get it from LEO to LLO, and then, how much would we need to transfer to the payload to have it successfully decent from lunar orbit to the surface?

GCNRevenger · 2008-03-07 17:30:00

If we where to launch a payload taking full advantage of the Ares V, something in the 120 ton range to LEO, with only enough fuel to maintain its orbit for a time, like the Progress does for the ISS, how much fuel would we need to launch in the form of a dedicated EDS to get it from LEO to LLO, and then, how much would we need to transfer to the payload to have it successfully decent from lunar orbit to the surface?

Unfortunately, a lot more fuel than a single Ares-V can lift.

Commodore · 2008-03-07 19:52:31

If my roughest guessaments are anywhere close, we are probably talking one Ares V worth of EDS for one Ares V worth of cargo, and another one again for landing fuel, based solely on extrapolating the ratio of the current architecture. If you want to exploit any of those spent stages, theres at least one more.

Theres a lot of launches, a lot of rendezvous, and a massive landing, but it would give a huge amount of real estate to work with.

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#1 2008-02-29 23:59:01

Re: Ares IV - MLLV - The Dark Horse

#2 2008-03-01 01:42:31

Re: Ares IV - MLLV - The Dark Horse

#3 2008-03-01 08:11:05

Re: Ares IV - MLLV - The Dark Horse

#4 2008-03-01 11:25:09

Re: Ares IV - MLLV - The Dark Horse

#5 2008-03-07 16:55:41

Re: Ares IV - MLLV - The Dark Horse

#6 2008-03-07 17:30:00

Re: Ares IV - MLLV - The Dark Horse

#7 2008-03-07 19:52:31

Re: Ares IV - MLLV - The Dark Horse

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