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#1 2005-10-12 00:08:39

Reptoid
Banned
Registered: 2005-07-28
Posts: 7

Re: So what about Mars is appealing to you?

I'm lost as to why inhabiting a planet with nothing but monotonous plains of red dirt and red skies appeals to you.  What is so great about living in some super-confining environment on a dusty, featureless planet far from the beauty and freedom you can find on Earth?  Would you really want your children to grow up on Mars?

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#2 2005-10-12 05:32:12

Cobra Commander
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From: The outskirts of Detroit.
Registered: 2002-04-09
Posts: 3,039

Re: So what about Mars is appealing to you?

I'm lost as to why inhabiting a planet with nothing but monotonous plains of red dirt and red skies appeals to you. What is so great about living in some super-confining environment on a dusty, featureless planet far from the beauty and freedom you can find on Earth?

It wouldn't be all that different from living in a major city. All these people crammed together, going about their respective tasks, none of the natural beauty or freedom of Earth. A constant barrage of rules one must conform to as they live out there days in an artificial habitat bearing only a fleeting and mocking resemblance to the natural world man evolved in.

If you can live in New York, you can endure life on Mars.

But Mars has one priceless quality that no place on Earth offers. It's a clean slate, a chance to start over. Colonists could build any sort of society they desire, build a world in their own image rather than conform to what another world would have them be. That is freedom, the freedom to live as you will without bowing to the dictates of others who command without justifying.

On another level, empty deserts carry a beauty of their own. An entire world of resources of possibilities, such wonders waiting to be discovered. A future to create, discoveries to be made, and entire world to mold and inhabit. Earth is downright boring by comparison, everything's already done and claimed.


Build a man a fire and he's warm for a day. Set a man on fire and he's warm for the rest of his life.

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#3 2005-10-12 16:47:27

clark
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Registered: 2001-09-20
Posts: 6,278

Re: So what about Mars is appealing to you?

If you can live in New York , you can live anywherelol

I've heard the hollow refrain of, "build your own..." and it holds no water.

You already point out that the rules would be largely the same as they are in a major metropolitan, high-urban density environment. Where is the new? Where is the breaking of the mold?

Mars is not a clean slate because the people who go will not be leaving behind anything. The ones that go will lay a foundation based on their previous experience. The ones that follow will build from that experience and add their own piece.

It will be no different than what you can do here and now on a blue planet closer to the sun. Except instead of swimming in an ocean, some will try to make one. Instead of walking through the forest, they will plant one. Instead of escaping from a community because they find it confining, they will create one where they will embrace a new one they somehow feel a part of.

Some like to color over the pictures already colored. Some prefer a blank sheet. Both are legitimate, it is just what appeals to each, varies.

The sand is always rustier on the other side of the hill. - ancient Martian proverb.  big_smile

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#4 2005-10-12 19:46:43

Dook
Banned
From: USA
Registered: 2004-01-09
Posts: 1,409

Re: So what about Mars is appealing to you?

It's as if God put it there, far away but not too far, barren but with tremendous promise hidden just inches beneath the top layer.  There can be thunderstorms.  There can be oceans full of fish and forrests alive with flocks of birds.  We just have to do it. 

Endure domes, recycled air and water?  I really don't see the point in attempting to live that kind of life.

Starting over?  As if Mars will somehow be a better human society.  I think that is just as ridiculous.  Don't you get it, you can't escape humans by moving to a colony on mars.  You just become more closely confined with them.

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#5 2005-10-13 05:16:06

Cobra Commander
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From: The outskirts of Detroit.
Registered: 2002-04-09
Posts: 3,039

Re: So what about Mars is appealing to you?

I've heard the hollow refrain of, "build your own..." and it holds no water.

Not when it comes from wide-eyed utopians, no one is seriously suggesting that we can build a magical land of fairies and rivers of honey where no one is ever sad and the trees sing gleefully as they pass out perfectly ripe fruit to all who pass by. Of course there are rules, simple physical realities that can't be cast aside.

But the human-imposed realities can be selectively discarded. If a few hundred like-minded people tried to create a closed community in some empty backwater of the US it would only be a short span of time before the authorities showed up with "you can't build that here without a permit, environmental impact studies, zoning. You still owe taxes, pay up or we'll kick you out. You can't structure your local government like that, you have to follow this model, you most certainly will not try that. No you can't expand your building, not without a permit, we've already been through this."

That's what can be escaped on Mars, communities can in theory be truly self-governing. Freer than most modern Americans can conceive. 

Bringing us to:

Starting over? As if Mars will somehow be a better human society. I think that is just as ridiculous. Don't you get it, you can't escape humans by moving to a colony on mars. You just become more closely confined with them.

Yes, it would be absurd for an idividual trying to escape from all humans. But for a group of humans trying to escape from the overbearing control of others, that's another story. Perhaps they will build a better society. It won't be perfect by any means, but better is always possible, we have to grant that possibility. Otherwise what's the point of any change? Why even try to improve?


Build a man a fire and he's warm for a day. Set a man on fire and he's warm for the rest of his life.

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#6 2005-10-13 06:04:02

clark
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Registered: 2001-09-20
Posts: 6,278

Re: So what about Mars is appealing to you?

Not when it comes from wide-eyed utopians, no one is seriously suggesting that we can build a magical land of fairies and rivers of honey where no one is ever sad and the trees sing gleefully as they pass out perfectly ripe fruit to all who pass by.

How about a magical land of autonomous collectives where every wild-eyed libertarian [/i]loon[/i] frolicks in the freshly planted shamrocks, doing their own thing in a plastic bubble?

You won't have the kind of freedoms you might expect until you have a robust environment in which individuals can't screw something up and kill everyone. That means while a colony develops, a tradition becomes ingrained, which will exsist even after a robust environment is in place.

But the human-imposed realities can be selectively discarded. If a few hundred like-minded people tried to create a closed community in some empty backwater of the US it would only be a short span of time before the authorities showed up with "you can't build that here without a permit, environmental impact studies, zoning. You still owe taxes, pay up or we'll kick you out.

Yeah, the Amish are really screwed.

That's what can be escaped on Mars, communities can in theory be truly self-governing. Freer than most modern Americans can conceive.

What is it that you want to do that you are not allowed to do? Aside from smoking dope?  tongue  lol

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#7 2005-10-13 10:47:11

Cobra Commander
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From: The outskirts of Detroit.
Registered: 2002-04-09
Posts: 3,039

Re: So what about Mars is appealing to you?

You won't have the kind of freedoms you might expect until you have a robust environment in which individuals can't screw something up and kill everyone. That means while a colony develops, a tradition becomes ingrained, which will exsist even after a robust environment is in place.

What you're missing is that freedom is relative. I'm not talking about freedom to do whatever you want with no regard for others. What I am talking about is forming a community of like-minded individuals who share a common set of values and act in a manner agreeable to all not because they're forced to but because they choose to.

It's really just freedom of association on a grand scale.

Yeah, the Amish are really screwed.

The Amish pay taxes, they're bound by the same regulations as anyone else. Can't just go claim a hill and raise a barn. They exist as a curiosity within the greater society, they can't really go their own way. Any group with grander ambitions than living like it was 1600 are even more restrained.

What is it that you want to do that you are not allowed to do? Aside from smoking dope?

I want to keep the fruits of my labor. I want to build somethign that can't be taken away by government-sanctioned thieves under the color of law. I want to be left the hell alone. Can't get that here.

But feel free to light up clark.
bong.gif


Build a man a fire and he's warm for a day. Set a man on fire and he's warm for the rest of his life.

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#8 2006-01-17 11:43:11

canalbuilder2
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Registered: 2006-01-16
Posts: 12

Re: So what about Mars is appealing to you?

Call me old-fashioned, but I'm going to try to answer the original question.

The first thing is the challenge. The chance to explore, to see and do things that haven't been seen and done a thousand times before. 

As an engineer I know our resources on earth are finite. So either we've got to start shipping material in, or people out. If we just ship material in, the place will eventually get quite crowded. (I know a lot of Americans think they are crowded now, but wait until you reach European levels of population density.)

So, Mars would be another step on mankind's spread from the rift valley. We don't know what forced our ancestors to leave there, but it was probaby population pressure and limited resources.

Of course, an alternative would be the world 1KM below sea level. There are more possibilites openning up down there these days. But, to my mind, that would be way too dark.

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#9 2006-01-21 11:06:07

reddragon
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From: Earth
Registered: 2005-01-24
Posts: 193

Re: So what about Mars is appealing to you?

What I am talking about is forming a community of like-minded individuals who share a common set of values and act in a manner agreeable to all not because they're forced to but because they choose to.

Certainly many of us would like to live in a community of like-minded individuals, but ultimately I don't think it would seem much different than the ordinary life on Earth. People will not agree 100% on everything. (I'm not sure that this is what you're suggesting anyway, but I think it is what some people envision.) If you establish a colony based on a philosophy specific to one area (such as environmentalism, militarism, capitalism, etc.) you will find that the members disagree on other issues. Thinking otherwise would be like thinking that Americans are all on the same page because they (almost) all support the democratic-republic for their system of government. On the other hand, if you establish a colony based on a general philosophy (such as liberalism, conservatism, or a religion) you will find that people interpret things differently or, while accepting most of the philosophy, disagree with a few points of it.

Mars will certainly provide a unique opportunity to try out new types of societies, and I think that is an exciting prospect, but I don't believe that we'll get any sort of utopia. People disagreeing is an inevitable part of society, and I think it's really a good thing anyway.


Far out in the uncharted backwaters of the unfashionable end of the Western Spiral arm of the Galaxy lies a small unregarded yellow sun.

             -The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy
              by Douglas Adams

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#10 2006-01-21 11:33:51

John Creighton
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From: Nova Scotia, Canada
Registered: 2001-09-04
Posts: 2,401
Website

Re: So what about Mars is appealing to you?

Hmmmm……countless ideologies each living in their own bubble. It sounds a little bit like planting the seeds for war. Not right away of course but when mars begins to become crowded.

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#11 2006-04-11 16:29:13

Kahless316
Banned
Registered: 2006-04-09
Posts: 4

Re: So what about Mars is appealing to you?

I think it's the same as the "old" new world used to be.  A place where you got to really build your own life, and where people could get a fresh start.  And if America as the old new world is anything to judge by, we'll make an improvement or two in governance as well.

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#12 2006-06-19 07:17:40

Austin Stanley
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From: Texarkana, TX
Registered: 2002-03-18
Posts: 519
Website

Re: So what about Mars is appealing to you?

I've always had this thing for the color red smile


He who refuses to do arithmetic is doomed to talk nonsense.

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#13 2006-08-05 13:23:18

SpaceBull
Member
Registered: 2005-09-26
Posts: 45

Re: So what about Mars is appealing to you?

I like dense cities, and I think quality of life could be just as good in a Martian city-state as in any city on Earth. I don't believe that there would be any more individual freedom on Mars than in most democratic countries on Earth though. Quite the contrary, people will be much more dependent on the "civilization" then here, because of the dependency on expensive equipment no individual can afford on his/her own like power plants, water extraction equipment, space suit factories, nitrate extraction mines, huge domes etc. etc. The same applies to potential lunar colonies. I don't think any group of people on Mars will be able to isolate themselves, because they will depend 100% on trade and contact with others.

What really appeals to me about colonizing Mars is that it is a possibility for humanity to spread beyond our current habitat. It is like we suddenly discovered new uninhabited continents on Earth. I think it is natural for any organism to try to spread and conquer new places. Those who don't eventually go extinct.

The settlers on Mars will bring along both negative and positive aspects of their own culture, and the culture of a Martian state a few hundred years from now will simply be a mix of the cultures brought by the first settlers. Just like US American culture is simply a mix between Northern European and Latin culture. Mars will certainly not be a Utopia, and there might even be wars between different groups of settlers. It depends on who go there in the first place - it is an undeniable fact that some cultures are more peaceful than others.

I am, unlike a lot of Mars enthusiasts, skeptic about the idea of terraforming. I think it is better to spend resources on technology that makes it possible to thrive without radically changing our environment. Besides, we might discover other planets orbiting other stars that already have an atmosphere suitable for life in the open.

Colonization of Mars might change Earth more than we realize today. Maybe the whole planet 1000 years from now will turn into a kind of national park / museum in order to preserve it so that other terrestrial species are allowed space to continue to evolve.

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#14 2006-09-04 07:52:02

Tom Kalbfus
Banned
Registered: 2006-08-16
Posts: 4,401

Re: So what about Mars is appealing to you?

If people like dense cities, they would stay on Earth. It will be quite a long time before their are millions of people on Mars pushing and shoving each other under a crowded dome.

I think if people want to recreate the city atmosphere on Mars they should do the following. First build a subway car, and then place it on a circular track inside a dome, then they can push and shove each other as they get on and get off of the subway, the subway then goes around on the circular track, the doors open and more people push and shove trying to get on and off. Then you got bring along some cars so you can have traffic jams, got to build a few city blocks as well, all in a bid to recreate the urban environment on Mars.  lol

Seriously though, I think Mars colonies would be more like small towns where everybody knows everybody. The most expensive part about Mars is getting there, and by the time you have teeming millions, much of the work will be automated anyway, it should be possible to erect large structures with few people under them.

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#15 2007-04-09 08:13:40

X
Member
From: Alabama
Registered: 2007-02-02
Posts: 134

Re: So what about Mars is appealing to you?

It'd be something different.  Plus I'd feel like I was doing something important as my life's work instead of just a job.  I'd miss the vast diversity of animal life we have here on earth, but then I mostly see it on tv which I could do on Mars just as easily.

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#16 2007-04-09 17:56:21

dicktice
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From: Nova Scotia, Canada
Registered: 2002-11-01
Posts: 1,764

Re: So what about Mars is appealing to you?

Hmmmm……countless ideologies each living in their own bubble. It sounds a little bit like planting the seeds for war. Not right away of course but when mars begins to become crowded.

Like the city-states of ancient Greece, eh?

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#17 2007-04-10 00:18:04

Tom Kalbfus
Banned
Registered: 2006-08-16
Posts: 4,401

Re: So what about Mars is appealing to you?

Hmmmm……countless ideologies each living in their own bubble. It sounds a little bit like planting the seeds for war. Not right away of course but when mars begins to become crowded.

Like the city-states of ancient Greece, eh?

Isn't it funny how there is no such thing as a lone socialist that minds his own business? Ideologies have a funny way of imposing themselves on other people. I'd prefer that the socialist would live under a seperate dome all by himself and endlessly redistribute wealth away from himself and in favor of himself, but the problem is it needs a victim to practise on. A socialist is not a socialist unless there is at least one other person whom he can redistribute resources from.

Islamic law needs a victim too, you can't have Islamic Law with just one person who is both the victim and the perpetrator, you need one other persom to get his hand chopped off for stealing or to be flogged if she is a woman showing too much skin.

Ideologies always need a victim, it seems.

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#18 2007-08-27 13:38:16

Terraformer
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From: Logres
Registered: 2007-08-27
Posts: 3,363
Website

Re: So what about Mars is appealing to you?

I don't find Mars appealing, I find Ceres appealing. For a start I own it and secondly it's smaller.


"I guarantee you that at some point, everything's going to go south on you, and you're going to say, 'This is it, this is how I end.' Now you can either accept that, or you can get to work." - Mark Watney

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#19 2007-10-29 10:59:36

dicktice
Member
From: Nova Scotia, Canada
Registered: 2002-11-01
Posts: 1,764

Re: So what about Mars is appealing to you?

Well, when you get right down to it, Mars is where Earthlings of every sort can continue to exist if anything happens to make the home planet uninhabitable. Anything else is window dressing, to be considered and debated after a sustainable foothold has been established on Mars.

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#20 2007-11-03 19:28:09

Martian Republic
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From: Haltom City- Dallas/Fort Worth
Registered: 2004-06-13
Posts: 855

Re: So what about Mars is appealing to you?

I'm lost as to why inhabiting a planet with nothing but monotonous plains of red dirt and red skies appeals to you.  What is so great about living in some super-confining environment on a dusty, featureless planet far from the beauty and freedom you can find on Earth?  Would you really want your children to grow up on Mars?

Why Mars appeals to Me!

If it were up to me, I would make it a national mission of the United States to build a city on Mars in say a forty to sixty year time frame. Or a super size Kennedy Moon Mission Goal on steroids.

Why would I want to do that?

1. Create jobs hear at home like the Kennedy Moon Mission created jobs hear on Earth did, but on a much larger scale. It would create a million jobs or more to do that.

2. We would have to develop new technologies to be able to hit our target date, which is fine, because then we would get technological spin off like we got during the Kennedy Moon Mission. The Kennedy Moon Mission returned fourteen dollars for every dollar, that we invested in our mission to go to the moon in new technology that was infusions into new products that entered into the Market place inside the United States. Which was a very good return on our invest for going to the moon.

3. The United States will start doing something productive again, like building infrastructure down here like rail roads, subways system and in space, a city on Mars. I rather see the United States doing like this, instead of declaring war on other countries and attacking them killing large numbers of people blowing there cities away. I much rather see my country building rather than killing and destroying things.

4. I would like to see a city being built on Mars, as a result of our stated goal to build a city Mars. Although I won't see the completion of the transformation of Mars into a planet more like the Earth, I would like to see the beginning of the process of seeing to it that it has started, before I leave this planet.

I have other reason, but these are the main reason that I would like us to go to Mars.

Larry,

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