What if Japan were to develop the Ares V?

Tom Kalbfus · 2007-10-08 22:25:26

One possibility for competing with China is to enlist Japan's aid. The US could develop the Ares I while Japan develops the Ares V. Japan and China are very compedative after all. I mean is the United States all that the Western World has got?

samy · 2007-10-08 23:21:41

Nope, there's Russia and Europe too.

Mars_B4_Moon · 2007-10-09 00:17:38

Like I said in the outsourcing thread, partnership with Japan could be a good thing. Offshoring some types of mission to Japan could be useful. The Japanese have good knowledge of tech/robotics and are politically friendly with us, a nation like like could be a great help to NASA.

However it ain't all clear sailing from there

Japanese are one of the richest people with the best high-tech gadgets but the cost of labor is extremely high, during the bubble years the economy inflated too fast and the yen was too weak for the looming oil shock.

Costs spiral out of control in Japan very often, a lot of their bridges and ports and soccer stadiums have become fund-guzzling white elephants. Japan attempted to build a sexed up copy of the 30 year old F-16 design but its price inflated to cost more than a US Stealth bomber. They don't seem to care much for astronauts in space and would rather launch unmanned missions. Their launcher is ok but will never launch people because the H-2 does not fly reliably. JAXA recently faced problems because of the government cuts and stagnant economy (Japanese almost had a decade long recession after their stock market burst). They had a string of bad luck this past decade their space program has almost gone backwards in the past few years.
Read about the Nozomi failure
http://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=1577
The good news is that their economy may finally be back on track and things are starting to look up again in space with the Selene mission.

Tom Kalbfus · 2007-10-09 07:58:04

Nope, there's Russia and Europe too.

Russia is not part of the West, so long as it retains its dictator, Japan however is. The "West" has ceased to be about geography and is more about advanced industrial democracy. I'm all for progress and against the Imperialization of Russia. Enlisting Russia in the space effort is sort of like hiring the Mafia to pick up your garbage. Russia and China are on the same side, that of the World's dicatators. I have nothing personally against China, and of the two, I think Russia is more bellicose, and China is more Capitalistic, but to make the full transistion to the West, China needs a legitimate democracy where their are choices in the elections that are not pre-screened bythe Communist Party. China can't be the leader of the Free World if it is not Free, the US retians that role as the World's most powerful democracy, even if China's economy should some day overshadow it, and I think its up to us to make our stand for democracy by competing with the Chinese as they go into space, but Japan, a long time rival to China, might be enlisted to help get us back to the Moon.

Tom Kalbfus · 2007-10-09 08:07:27

Like I said in the outsourcing thread, partnership with Japan could be a good thing. Offshoring some types of mission to Japan could be useful. The Japanese have good knowledge of tech/robotics and are politically friendly with us, a nation like like could be a great help to NASA.
However it ain't all clear sailing from there
Japanese are one of the richest people with the best high-tech gadgets but the cost of labor is extremely high, during the bubble years the economy inflated too fast and the yen was too weak for the looming oil shock.
Costs spiral out of control in Japan very often, a lot of their bridges and ports and soccer stadiums have become fund-guzzling white elephants. Japan attempted to build a sexed up copy of the 30 year old F-16 design but its price inflated to cost more than a US Stealth bomber. They don't seem to care much for astronauts in space and would rather launch unmanned missions. Their launcher is ok but will never launch people because the H-2 does not fly reliably. JAXA recently faced problems because of the government cuts and stagnant economy (Japanese almost had a decade long recession after their stock market burst). They had a string of bad luck this past decade their space program has almost gone backwards in the past few years.
Read about the Nozomi failure
http://newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=1577
The good news is that their economy may finally be back on track and things are starting to look up again in space with the Selene mission.

I'm not talking about outsourceing to Japan, as a source of cheap labor Japan stinks, what I am talking about is making Japan an equal partner in our return to the Moon. The Japanese have resources that are not inconsiderable, perhaps it might wound their national pride to have China beat them to the Moon. We can help the Japanese with technology should they request it by loaning out scientists and engineers to them. I figure while we are contributing more toward finishing the Space Station, they could be building a Japanese Version of the Ares V rocket while we build the Ares I. One of the advantages of being a newcomer to Space is that they are not saddled by a legacy space vehicle such as the Shuttle, and since the Are I relies heavitly on one shuttle component the Solid Rocket Booster, then the US would be the logical one to build it. Also with Japan's preference to building unmanned Rockets, the Ares V is an unmanned Rocket, just a very large one.

samy · 2007-10-09 08:25:57

is the United States all that the Western World has got?
Nope, there's Russia and Europe too.
Russia is not part of the West, so long as it retains its dictator

Oh I see, you actually meant to say, "countries I like", not "the Western World".

The difference between the two being, the latter isn't defined by whether you like their government or not. The former is, so using it is the accurate choice when you want to exclude countries you dislike.

Commodore · 2007-10-09 08:42:41

Nope, there's Russia and Europe too.
Russia is not part of the West, so long as it retains its dictator, Japan however is. The "West" has ceased to be about geography and is more about advanced industrial democracy. I'm all for progress and against the Imperialization of Russia. Enlisting Russia in the space effort is sort of like hiring the Mafia to pick up your garbage. Russia and China are on the same side, that of the World's dicatators. I have nothing personally against China, and of the two, I think Russia is more bellicose, and China is more Capitalistic, but to make the full transistion to the West, China needs a legitimate democracy where their are choices in the elections that are not pre-screened bythe Communist Party. China can't be the leader of the Free World if it is not Free, the US retians that role as the World's most powerful democracy, even if China's economy should some day overshadow it, and I think its up to us to make our stand for democracy by competing with the Chinese as they go into space, but Japan, a long time rival to China, might be enlisted to help get us back to the Moon.

Russia's problem is it has all the capability and ingenuity of the West and none of the prosperity to show for it. That is why it shows a preference for more authoritative leaders. I think more, not less, Western investment could change this. Theres more than enough oil in Russia to provide a viable alternative to Middle Eastern oil not just for us as we try to wean off of it, but for the developing world, so all of Africa doesn't end up like Darfur.

Mars_B4_Moon · 2007-10-09 09:02:35

I wouldn't really call Japan a shining example of democracy, heck according to Washington : great places such as Columbia and Iraq are some of the finest examples of democracy . Japan, like the rest of Asia they aren't very democratically active and have a very Confucian outlook. They have been more or less ruled by a single party state since the end of WW2 and even in this high-tech age they have retained their burakumin caste system. The only political reason to give them our full support is because China is communist and we 'hate commies' or something like this.
I'm not here to debate politics but I do question their H-2 carrier rocket and other launch systems. They had a number of recent failures and the H-2 does not fly reliably. Japan building a heavy lift would be many times more complicated than the H-2.

Tom Kalbfus · 2007-10-09 09:27:11

Nope, there's Russia and Europe too.
Russia is not part of the West, so long as it retains its dictator
Oh I see, you actually meant to say, "countries I like", not "the Western World".
The difference between the two being, the latter isn't defined by whether you like their government or not. The former is, so using it is the accurate choice when you want to exclude countries you dislike.

So for you "The West" is a geographic region rather than a group of countries that share a democratic set of values. No, I like Russia really, it has some pretty women, but I just don't like Russia under the Putin dictatorship, and what else is it really? Putin controls the media, anyone who wants to run against Putin won't get favorable media coverage, and any media outlets that do or give Putin unfavorable coverage will soon find themselves off the air, under some legal pretense or another. And why do you suppose Russia's petroluem industry suddenly imploded during high oil prices and were all bought up at auction by Gasprom? The elections are a sham, the governors directly appointed by the President, this is not a republic or a democracy anymore, I don't see why we should have continued dealings with them, until the get some real democracy again. You see I prefer we don't do business with assassins or the Mafia, just because someone thinks they can get something done. Putin basically runs an organized criminal conspiracy that has taken control of Russia, they have assassinated British citizens and will not extradite the suspect. I believe that if Western Civilization has any meaning, we ought to have some scruples about who we deal with. If we let in Putin, why not also the Italian Mob, we could include the Columbian Drug cartels, and a whole host of terrorist organizations besides. Do you really want to run a space program like the "Mos Eisely Cantina" in Star Wars with no questions asked and all sorts or under-handed dealings? I think once we let in organized crime, where does this stop? Do we use slave labor in Siberia to assemble the rockets in some giant underground factory?

Tom Kalbfus · 2007-10-09 09:46:05

Nope, there's Russia and Europe too.
Russia is not part of the West, so long as it retains its dictator, Japan however is. The "West" has ceased to be about geography and is more about advanced industrial democracy. I'm all for progress and against the Imperialization of Russia. Enlisting Russia in the space effort is sort of like hiring the Mafia to pick up your garbage. Russia and China are on the same side, that of the World's dicatators. I have nothing personally against China, and of the two, I think Russia is more bellicose, and China is more Capitalistic, but to make the full transistion to the West, China needs a legitimate democracy where their are choices in the elections that are not pre-screened bythe Communist Party. China can't be the leader of the Free World if it is not Free, the US retians that role as the World's most powerful democracy, even if China's economy should some day overshadow it, and I think its up to us to make our stand for democracy by competing with the Chinese as they go into space, but Japan, a long time rival to China, might be enlisted to help get us back to the Moon.
Russia's problem is it has all the capability and ingenuity of the West and none of the prosperity to show for it. That is why it shows a preference for more authoritative leaders. I think more, not less, Western investment could change this. Theres more than enough oil in Russia to provide a viable alternative to Middle Eastern oil not just for us as we try to wean off of it, but for the developing world, so all of Africa doesn't end up like Darfur.

We were investing in Russian Oil until the Putin regime confiscated it all under Gazprom. With Russia running its oil monopoly, there is nowhere to invest, Putin has stolen what has been invested already, so why should investors invest further? Do you care to lose your money in Russia?
I don't see Russia as an alternative to OPEC, Russia is just another government run monopoly under the guise of Gazprom. I don't see why we should depend on foreign governments to sell us oil. There were private oil companies operating in Russia 10 years ago, and all their investment and oil exploration capital was stolen by the Russian government, if we buy oil from Russia, it is much like buying stolen booty from pirates. I don't feel like buying stuff off of theives that have stolen the investment portfolio of retirees to enrich themselves. There were investment funds in Russia, and Russia in its heavy-handed way stole those investments just like OPEC did earlier, it seems like all the private oil companies keep on getting shoved aside by the big government monopolists and their favotite state holding companies. If you invest in any third world country's oil exploration, you are a fool, because the moment you achieve any success, the government will simply step in and take all your profits away. If we depend on Russia for any rocket components, we are just enriching their dictator.

Tom Kalbfus · 2007-10-09 09:53:27

I wouldn't really call Japan a shining example of democracy, heck according to Washington : great places such as Columbia and Iraq are some of the finest examples of democracy . Japan, like the rest of Asia they aren't very democratically active and have a very Confucian outlook. They have been more or less ruled by a single party state since the end of WW2 and even in this high-tech age they have retained their burakumin caste system. The only political reason to give them our full support is because China is communist and we 'hate commies' or something like this.
I'm not here to debate politics but I do question their H-2 carrier rocket and other launch systems. They had a number of recent failures and the H-2 does not fly reliably. Japan building a heavy lift would be many times more complicated than the H-2.

Your view of Japan is outdated, it has two main parties, the Liberal Democratic Party and the Democratic Party. Japan is decidedly more high tech than China, and if they have trouble with their rockets, we can certainly help them with their technical aspects. If given the blueprints of an Ares V rocket, they could certainly build one, it is mostly a matter or motivation. We democracies ought to stick together. I mean really, when's the last time you invited the Mafia over to dinner?

samy · 2007-10-09 11:39:57

Tom, it's pretty clear that you have some serious hostility towards Putin's Russia. I won't say it's unfounded. I will just sum up the dispute with the following: you think Russia isn't included in "the West", I think it is included. I think that pretty much sums it up.

As for your deeper question,

Do you really want to run a space program like the "Mos Eisely Cantina" in Star Wars with no questions asked and all sorts or under-handed dealings?

, at this point I think I would indeed seriously consider stomaching some corruption in exchange for a space program that was moving faster than it currently is. That's just my opinion however, and I fully realize most of you disagree. Just my opinion.

Tom Kalbfus · 2007-10-09 11:53:16

Tom, it's pretty clear that you have some serious hostility towards Putin's Russia. I won't say it's unfounded. I will just sum up the dispute with the following: you think Russia isn't included in "the West", I think it is included. I think that pretty much sums it up.
As for your deeper question,
Do you really want to run a space program like the "Mos Eisely Cantina" in Star Wars with no questions asked and all sorts or under-handed dealings?
, at this point I think I would indeed seriously consider stomaching some corruption in exchange for a space program that was moving faster than it currently is. That's just my opinion however, and I fully realize most of you disagree. Just my opinion.

Many in Russia have traditionally referred to "the West" as something other than themselves. Geographically, most of Russia is in Asia, although they are basically European in race. Russia is the last of the great European Empires, as such they are a bit of an anachronism. Russia has more in common with NAZI Germany, the Napoleonic Empire, and the Roman Empire than it does with any of the modern European States. Most of Europe is democratic now, and the era of European Despotism is mostly over with the exception of Russia. Most Europeans criticise the United States for still having a death penalty for capital crimes, most Europeans have given up the Death Penalty, all except Russia, which still has the death penalty in the for of assassination, sometimes extraterritorial as in the case of the ex-KGB spy in Great Britian, who was "executed" by polonium poisoning. There was that reporter who was mudered in her own apartment, all without trial.

samy · 2007-10-09 11:55:13

Her name was Anna Politkovskaya.

Trust me, I know all the points you are making and more. They just don't change my mind.

Tom Kalbfus · 2007-10-09 12:57:56

Well, then we could just team up with China then couldn't we?
If there was an Empire the US could team up with for going to the Moon, I'd pick China over Russia, China has been more civil with us than Russia over the 20th century, and unlike Russia, China doesn't have a psychological need to have the United States for an Enemy. Putin is always going about trying to "defy" and the West and especially the United States, China doesn't really have problems like that. The question is, what sort of Solar System do you want to have in the future? Is it going to be the Solar Federation or the Empire of Sol? Do you want your descendents to have to bow to an Emperor, or do you want them to have a chance to choose their own government?

We lay the foundation of how the Solar System is governed by who colonizes it now. If the United States and other democracies have a hand in it, its going to be more democratic than if we just leave it to the Empires of Russia and China. That is my belief anyway.

samy · 2007-10-09 13:09:29

Well, then we could just team up with China then couldn't we?

I certainly could. I wouldn't mind getting all of US, Europe, Russia, China, Japan and India together and actually getting something *done*. That's what Starfleet is all about; strength in unity. None of us can get jack done alone.

Austin Stanley · 2007-10-09 13:19:12

The biggest problem with contracting out Ares V to the Japanese is that there Aerospace industry frankly probably isn't capable of creating it just yet. While the Japanese are at the forfront of virtualy every other field, the trail a good distance behind the US in this one. The Ares V, which is likely to be one of the most powerful launch vehicle (if not THE most powerful) every constructed is probably to much of a bite for the Japanese to chew of at this time. The Japanese have never built anything remotely near this size.

A better project would be an Ares I type vehicle. The Japanese H-2 started flying around 1994 and is roughly as capable as one of the USs Atlas or Delta rockets, though it has had a mixed launch record and a much shorter history. I belive it still shares a considerable amount of tech with the Delta rockets as well. But in any case, building an Ares I type craft would be difficult enough for their industry as it stands now, much less the much larger Ares V.

The same goes for the Europeans as well, though their space industry appears to be developing faster. Even so, a project the size of the Ares V would be difficult for them as they have no experience with rockets of this size. They could probably pull of an Ares I however. The Chinese are behind the Japanese/Europeans in some ways and ahead in others, so likewise they could probably pull of an Ares I with some work, but Ares V is beyond them. For now at least.

So really the only nation avaliable to subcontract the Ares V out would be the Russians you seem to dislike. I won't argue with your reasons for disliking them, but they are the only other nation (besides the US itself)that would be realisticly be capable of starting an Ares V size project in the immediat future. Indeed the Russian Energia rocket would have been near ideal for the Ares V needs.

Of course if the US subcontracted out the "Ares V" out to any other country it likely would be the "Ares V" at least not as we imagine it today. There would be little reason for the Japanese or Russians to use shuttle derived technology they don't poses, so the vehicle would be of a much different nature. And without using shuttle derived technology (or Energia derived tech in the Russian case) the cost would likely be much higher. Of course this point is rather mute as only the US and Russia (who you eliminate) relasiticly have the capabiliites to start such a project in the short term.

All this leads to the conclusion that it doesn't make any sense to subcontract the "Ares V" out to any other space agency. Despite NASA's many failings they are still the most capable game in town, especialy if you exclude the Russians. "Ares I" would be the project we would want to give out, not the USs new HLLV.

Tom Kalbfus · 2007-10-09 15:07:54

The Japs are capable of surprising things. If they don't have the Rocket expertise, they can always hire some American engineers to fill in the gaps. Its more a matter of the Japs being able to pay for it, than their having specific expertise in rocketry. I think the US would be more forthcoming in sharing its technology with the Japanese than with the Russians. The main reasons are:

1) Russia is unstable
2) Russia is undemocratic
3) Russia is hostile
4) Russia deals with terrorist countries that are hostile to the US
5) Russia assassinates people in western countries without that country's permission.
6) Russia threatens to cut off gas supplies to neighboring countries
7) Russia lobs missiles at neigboring countries
8) Russia tries to assassinate the leaders of neighboring countries that it does not like

Another thing is that Russia tries to expand territorially while China tries to expand economically. We don't want to share technology with Russia, as they'll only use it against us and distribute it to our enemies.

Japan on the otherhand
1) is stable
2) is democratic
3) has been a good ally
4) is prosperous and can afford it (Russia can sell its expertise, but it can't afford to build an Ares V)

Now if we want to pay the Russians to build an Ares V type vehicle we can, that's more money out of our pocket, the only redeeming value out of this is that the Russians may work cheaper than American Engineers, but its still more money out of our pocket in addition to building the Ares I. The Japs on the otherhand can build their own heavy lift vehicle, what they don't have expertise in they can buy, and the Japs are very good at developing the experise they didn't initially have, the Japs can pay for their own part of the project, so for us its more like sharing the expense of the project with them rather than us contracting them out to build something that we pay for. In return half the crew can be Japanese and half Americans, that is two each. With Europe we have the problem with having multiple nations, and the capsule only seats four. No doubt different European astronauts will have to take turns going to the Moon as they all can't fit aboard.

Austin Stanley · 2007-10-09 15:55:36

The Japs are capable of surprising things. If they don't have the Rocket expertise, they can always hire some American engineers to fill in the gaps. Its more a matter of the Japs being able to pay for it, than their having specific expertise in rocketry. I think the US would be more forthcoming in sharing its technology with the Japanese than with the Russians. The main reasons are:
-- snip --
Now if we want to pay the Russians to build an Ares V type vehicle we can, that's more money out of our pocket, the only redeeming value out of this is that the Russians may work cheaper than American Engineers, but its still more money out of our pocket in addition to building the Ares I. The Japs on the otherhand can build their own heavy lift vehicle, what they don't have expertise in they can buy, and the Japs are very good at developing the experise they didn't initially have, the Japs can pay for their own part of the project, so for us its more like sharing the expense of the project with them rather than us contracting them out to build something that we pay for. In return half the crew can be Japanese and half Americans, that is two each. With Europe we have the problem with having multiple nations, and the capsule only seats four. No doubt different European astronauts will have to take turns going to the Moon as they all can't fit aboard.

#1. The term "jap" is generally considered a racial slur. Similar to, but worse than the term "nip," (short for Nipponese) I'm sure you didn't mean it as such, but most Japanese find it offensive. As do I.

#2. Not that I advocate selling our transferring our rocket technology to the Russians, but they could manage quite well with out it. I mean they built the Energia without our help, and it is in many ways a superior design to the Ares V we are currently considering. I also bet that Russia could pay for such a vehicle if they wished to. The economy of there is slowly stabilizing and turning around, they simply don't wish to spend the money that way at the current time (better things to spend it on).

#3. I'm a big fan of the Japanese, I think many Americans underestimate that country. However, they are not supermen and their country is not without its faults. It's space program in particular has not produced especially spectacular results, its primary launch vehicle (the H-2) is both expensive and rather untrustworthy. In the end they are a country in many ways similar to the US. And their space program is vulnerable to graft, incompetence, and cost overruns just as America's is. They put their pants on one leg at time, just like us.

Now I have no doubt that the Japanese COULD produce an Ares V, or any other sort of HLLV if they wanted to. The questions is, if we want to get to Mars fast is having them build it the best way to go? I think probably not. They have no experience in building vehicles of this size, they are still struggling with ones in the Delta-IV range. Even if we simply trucked over shuttle technology to them wholesale (a plan Boeing and Rocketydne among others might have a small problem with). They still probably wouldn't be up to speed with the US. They lack the necessary infrastructure to assemble and launch such a large spacecraft for one thing.

Sure it would be cheaper for the US if we had them build it for us (ie we didn't have to pay a thing). But in terms of absolute cost it would undoubtedly cost the Japanese more to do it then it would NASA. I'm not sure why the Japanese would agree to such an arrangement. And if they did, they would certainly be the Senior partners in it, not the US.

Now I wouldn't have any objects to your proposal if it went the other way around. If you were proposing say to have the Japanese design and build the Ares I while we focused on the Ares V I would be all for it. The Japanese could also probably produce and excellent rover for a Mars mission as well. I even think co-opting the JAXA for our moon and mars mission is an EXCELLENT idea.

samy · 2007-10-09 15:58:16

#1. The term "jap" is generally considered a racial slur. Similar to, but worse than the term "nip," (short for Nipponese) I'm sure you didn't mean it as such, but most Japanese find it offensive. As do I.

Well, as long as he used it neutrally it's all good.

I'm sure he (and I, for that matter) would be pleased to consider alternative abbreviations. What is a less offensive abbreviation when you don't feel like spelling out the entire word "Japanese" each time you write it? Jps?

Austin Stanley · 2007-10-09 16:07:08

#1. The term "jap" is generally considered a racial slur. Similar to, but worse than the term "nip," (short for Nipponese) I'm sure you didn't mean it as such, but most Japanese find it offensive. As do I.
Well, as long as he used it neutrally it's all good.
I'm sure he (and I, for that matter) would be pleased to consider alternative abbreviations. What is a less offensive abbreviation when you don't feel like spelling out the entire word "Japanese" each time you write it? Jps?

JP usually works. I don't think writing out Japanese is that much of a burden though. I don't find it to troublesome to write out Americans when I am referring to people of that nationality.

I don't mean to sound like a prick or something, but it truly is an offensive term to many people. And I'm sure thats not how Tom intended it to be.

samy · 2007-10-09 17:15:52

I don't think writing out Japanese is that much of a burden though.

Once, no, it isn't. When you're using it multiple times in a paragraph, though, it'll quickly become annoying. "American" would too. There's a reason why abbreviations were invented, and shorter words than "Japanese" have been abbreviated on a regular basis.

Tom Kalbfus · 2007-10-09 17:49:21

The only other meaning for JAP is Jewish-American Princess, its more of a character type than a race. I don't think many Japanese could be accused of being such. The first time I encountered the word "Jap" was watching a World War II movie. I think probably some movie such as Tora Tora Tora. I can imagine some pilot radioing another saying, "Here come the Japs at 10 O'Clock!" The other pilot mentions while shooting at them, "They are not 'Japs' they are Japanese! Lets not be offensive here, the enemy pilot might be listening in on our frequency."

I think the term is similar to calling Americans "Yanks"

Austin Stanley · 2007-10-09 22:31:31

The only other meaning for JAP is Jewish-American Princess, its more of a character type than a race. I don't think many Japanese could be accused of being such. The first time I encountered the word "Jap" was watching a World War II movie. I think probably some movie such as Tora Tora Tora. I can imagine some pilot radioing another saying, "Here come the Japs at 10 O'Clock!" The other pilot mentions while shooting at them, "They are not 'Japs' they are Japanese! Lets not be offensive here, the enemy pilot might be listening in on our frequency."
I think the term is similar to calling Americans "Yanks"

Your correct that the term originates from WWII, where it was used in a variety of offensive slogans and gained its offensive connotation. Like this darling little comic. I know quite a few Japanese people, and all of them find the term offensive.

But don't take my word for it. Websters, Oxfords, Wikipedia, Wiktionary, Farlex Free Dictionary, and other I'm sure all agree.

And while I don't personally find the term "Yank" offensive, living in the Southern as I do, I know MANY people to whom those would be "fightin' words."

Tom Kalbfus · 2007-10-10 08:32:42

The only other meaning for JAP is Jewish-American Princess, its more of a character type than a race. I don't think many Japanese could be accused of being such. The first time I encountered the word "Jap" was watching a World War II movie. I think probably some movie such as Tora Tora Tora. I can imagine some pilot radioing another saying, "Here come the Japs at 10 O'Clock!" The other pilot mentions while shooting at them, "They are not 'Japs' they are Japanese! Lets not be offensive here, the enemy pilot might be listening in on our frequency."
I think the term is similar to calling Americans "Yanks"
Your correct that the term originates from WWII, where it was used in a variety of offensive slogans and gained its offensive connotation. Like this darling little comic. I know quite a few Japanese people, and all of them find the term offensive.
But don't take my word for it. Websters, Oxfords, Wikipedia, Wiktionary, Farlex Free Dictionary, and other I'm sure all agree.
And while I don't personally find the term "Yank" offensive, living in the Southern as I do, I know MANY people to whom those would be "fightin' words."

The purpose of the book seemed to be how to spot Japanese infiltrators in China, seems to be a guide on how to profile a Japanese in a Chinese crowd using various mannerisms and perhaps physical features. I'm sure it was not politically correct, but it may have saved some lives at the time.

Since I don't want to waste time arguing about it, I'll refrain from using the word Jap here. Although I believe its equivalent to using the word Brit to refer to British people. I'm sure the British don't find the word 'Brit' to be racially offensive.

I'm sure the Asians don't need guides on "How to spot a Brit" After all some Chinese tourists might spend some time in France, and they may need a guide on how to spot all those Brits that are pretending to be French. :twisted:

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#1 2007-10-08 22:25:26

Re: What if Japan were to develop the Ares V?

#2 2007-10-08 23:21:41

Re: What if Japan were to develop the Ares V?

#3 2007-10-09 00:17:38

Re: What if Japan were to develop the Ares V?

#4 2007-10-09 07:58:04

Re: What if Japan were to develop the Ares V?

#5 2007-10-09 08:07:27

Re: What if Japan were to develop the Ares V?

#6 2007-10-09 08:25:57

Re: What if Japan were to develop the Ares V?

#7 2007-10-09 08:42:41

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#8 2007-10-09 09:02:35

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#9 2007-10-09 09:27:11

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#10 2007-10-09 09:46:05

Re: What if Japan were to develop the Ares V?

#11 2007-10-09 09:53:27

Re: What if Japan were to develop the Ares V?

#12 2007-10-09 11:39:57

Re: What if Japan were to develop the Ares V?

#13 2007-10-09 11:53:16

Re: What if Japan were to develop the Ares V?

#14 2007-10-09 11:55:13

Re: What if Japan were to develop the Ares V?

#15 2007-10-09 12:57:56

Re: What if Japan were to develop the Ares V?

#16 2007-10-09 13:09:29

Re: What if Japan were to develop the Ares V?

#17 2007-10-09 13:19:12

Re: What if Japan were to develop the Ares V?

#18 2007-10-09 15:07:54

Re: What if Japan were to develop the Ares V?

#19 2007-10-09 15:55:36

Re: What if Japan were to develop the Ares V?

#20 2007-10-09 15:58:16

Re: What if Japan were to develop the Ares V?

#21 2007-10-09 16:07:08

Re: What if Japan were to develop the Ares V?

#22 2007-10-09 17:15:52

Re: What if Japan were to develop the Ares V?

#23 2007-10-09 17:49:21

Re: What if Japan were to develop the Ares V?

#24 2007-10-09 22:31:31

Re: What if Japan were to develop the Ares V?

#25 2007-10-10 08:32:42

Re: What if Japan were to develop the Ares V?

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