Terraforming Venus - The Latest Thinking

Terraformer · 2007-09-15 10:50:10

But what about food? I know, Ceres swops water for food and carbon.

Tom Kalbfus · 2007-09-16 10:56:52

But what about food? I know, Ceres swops water for food and carbon.

There are closer sources of carbon to Ceres than Venus.

nickname · 2007-09-16 15:21:01

I think the best export of all from Venus would be Nitrogen.
Mars would be willing to pay for that.

atitarev · 2007-09-16 20:24:10

But what about food? I know, Ceres swops water for food and carbon.
There are closer sources of carbon to Ceres than Venus.

Venus is closer to Ceres than any outer planet, unless you mean the source of carbon is other asteroids, Earth/Luna or Mars.

Ceres's distance from the Sun: 381,419,582 - 447,838,164 km. Venus 108 mln km. Jupiter: 740,573,646 - 816,520,751 km.

Spatula · 2007-09-17 01:56:17

I think your pretty close to the 35c day temperatures on the day side, maybe a bit hotter in specific locations.

That is an average for the entire planet. It's a hot planet! But you have to think about how that average is distributed. The high temperatures will be close to or in the 40s, and the low temperatures will still be below freezing, causing permanent icecaps at the poles. They will be much smaller icecaps than Earth's, and much warmer. Ours are well into the negative double digits. These would be tenuous, maybe thawing occasionally, in a permanent state of twilight.

As for the speculation about seasons, I'm pretty sure they would be insignificant. Maybe chilly, but never cold enough to freeze at the equator. When you have ocean currents encircling the planet, temperature tends to be regulated pretty well.

Our planet would go from 100 to -100 on the equator every day if we didn't have an atmosphere and oceans to act like a thermal conduit.

I do agree with nickname about the rain though. The weather would probably be ridiculous.

Tom Kalbfus · 2007-09-17 07:53:30

I think the best export of all from Venus would be Nitrogen.
Mars would be willing to pay for that.

Venus has about as much nitrogen as does the Earth, not a surplus, and if your planning on terraforming Venus, the nitrogen should stay. Carbon dioxide makes a poor substitute for nitrogen, as we can breath in an atmosphere that's 80% nitrogen, and we can't breath one that's 80% carbon dioxide.

atitarev · 2007-09-17 17:06:07

I think the best export of all from Venus would be Nitrogen.
Mars would be willing to pay for that.
Venus has about as much nitrogen as does the Earth, not a surplus, and if your planning on terraforming Venus, the nitrogen should stay. Carbon dioxide makes a poor substitute for nitrogen, as we can breath in an atmosphere that's 80% nitrogen, and we can't breath one that's 80% carbon dioxide.

Venus has 3% nitrogen in the atmosphere, which makes 2.5 G.

In my opinion, though Venus might need a much thicker nitrogen/oxygen atmosphere, so the excess is not big.

Tom Kalbfus · 2007-09-18 22:33:44

I think the best export of all from Venus would be Nitrogen.
Mars would be willing to pay for that.
Venus has about as much nitrogen as does the Earth, not a surplus, and if your planning on terraforming Venus, the nitrogen should stay. Carbon dioxide makes a poor substitute for nitrogen, as we can breath in an atmosphere that's 80% nitrogen, and we can't breath one that's 80% carbon dioxide.
Venus has 3% nitrogen in the atmosphere, which makes 2.5 G.
In my opinion, though Venus might need a much thicker nitrogen/oxygen atmosphere, so the excess is not big.

That's 3% of a 90 bar atmosphere. 0.03 * 90 = 2.7 bars of nitrogen, Earth has about 0.8 bars of nitrogen, so it appears Venus has too much nitrogen if all the carbon dioxide were removed. Possibly the excess nitrogen might be used on Mars, though getting it from Titan is another possibility.

karov · 2007-09-19 03:20:38

2.7-3 bars of nitrogen + normal 0.2-0.21 bars of oxygen as basic compenents of a terraformed Venusian atmosphere is OK. I believe atitarev is right.
2.7 bars of partial N2 pressure are well ( 0.5 bars ) away from the bottom line for http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nitrogen_narcosis...

Slow rotating planet ( or non rotating ) as we discussed many times needs much heavier atmosphere to effectivelly distribute heat around itself.

nickname · 2007-09-19 05:21:19

Mars wouldn't need much nitrogen from Venus.
1/3 of a bar would be good.

Using the data to transfer hydrogen to Venus from the gas giants and back taking 10,000 years for 1 bar.

1/3 of a bar from Venus to Mars should take somewhere around 700 years to transport with a pretty robust plan.

1/3 of a bar of nitrogen on mars makes it a workable place to teraform.
Without an input of nitrogen to the atmosphere of mars, we end up with a Martian atmosphere that would never be breathable.

Even a teraformed Mars now would probably not be safe for any plant life with its teraformed c02 level percentages.
No real buffer gasses on Mars makes it an impossible place for safe c02 and safe oxygen levels.
A plant safe Mars needs c02 levels at 5% total volume or less.

If we aim for a Martian atmosphere about 1/2 bar, having 66% of that as nitrogen makes it possible to alter the other 34% of gas to safe levels of c02 and oxygen.
That level of 34% is just below the self combustion point of oxygen, so its possible to make the remaining 34% all oxygen or mostly oxygen.

Leaving Venus with 2.5 bars of nitrogen is more than enough to have an atmosphere of 3 bars for Venus.
We would probably want Venus to end up about 3 bars or less of mostly nitrogen.

Wonder how much the Martians will pay?
A 700 year mortgage so to speak.

Tom Kalbfus · 2007-09-20 08:01:26

Leaving Venus with 2.5 bars of nitrogen is more than enough to have an atmosphere of 3 bars for Venus.
We would probably want Venus to end up about 3 bars or less of mostly nitrogen.
Wonder how much the Martians will pay?
A 700 year mortgage so to speak.

One could then climb to the summit of Maxwell Montes without an oxygen tank. Some people can climb Mt Everest too, but people could climb Maxwell without special conditioning. The poles of Venus would be in permanent twilight too. Since Venus has hardly any tilt, the Sun would remain about halfway above and halfway below the horizon as it slowly circled. If Venus were to be warmer than Earth and without ice caps, the polar regions would be suitable places to grow crops. The South pole seems more suitable for crops with long growing seasons. My Venus globe indicates there would not be much land around the North pole. The Snegurochka Planitia is fairly deep.

nickname · 2007-09-21 16:40:51

Tom Kalbfus,

Venus would have some really interesting climbs.
With a 3 bar mostly nitrogen atmosphere you could climb to the top with much less oxygen content than needed on earth.

I think one of the solar systems most astounding climbs would be Valis Marinaris on Mars.
Just picture standing at the bottom looking up a few km's, or down when you get to the top.
Oxygen mask required on that one though.

nickname · 2007-09-24 05:54:49

Been doing a bit of research about having a layer of C02 at the le grange around Venus.

Looks like the idea of converting the sunlight to heat with that c02 le grange layer before it reaches Venus would work.
The atmosphere on Venus would then act as a pretty efficient heat reflector.
At the le grange point the C02 we put in place would tend to stay in place.
It would not form a moon without a decent initial gravity source (small moon in place).

Not sure we could get a 75% cooling with that method, but maybe in the 50% range.
More than enough cooling to set machines on the ground of Venus after only a few years.
With smog/smoke mixed into that c02 layer at the le grange 75% or more cooling of Venus isn't out of the question.
Putting smoke/smog in a layer at the le grange isn't difficult, separating c02 into oxygen and burning it makes fine black smoke.
We could make a very smoke filled light reflector if we desired.

Now how would you go about getting a few bars of atmosphere off Venus to the le grange on a to hot to land on the surface Venus?
Anyone have any thoughts?

akkakappa · 2007-10-27 06:35:52

what about bombarding venus with controlled quantities of metallic sodium?

At those temperatures and pressure, carbon dioxide is converted in tiny diamonds graphite and free oxygen,using sodium as a catalyst.

Any ideas? suggestions?

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#51 2007-09-15 10:50:10

Re: Terraforming Venus - The Latest Thinking

#52 2007-09-16 10:56:52

Re: Terraforming Venus - The Latest Thinking

#53 2007-09-16 15:21:01

Re: Terraforming Venus - The Latest Thinking

#54 2007-09-16 20:24:10

Re: Terraforming Venus - The Latest Thinking

#55 2007-09-17 01:56:17

Re: Terraforming Venus - The Latest Thinking

#56 2007-09-17 07:53:30

Re: Terraforming Venus - The Latest Thinking

#57 2007-09-17 17:06:07

Re: Terraforming Venus - The Latest Thinking

#58 2007-09-18 22:33:44

Re: Terraforming Venus - The Latest Thinking

#59 2007-09-19 03:20:38

Re: Terraforming Venus - The Latest Thinking

#60 2007-09-19 05:21:19

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#61 2007-09-20 08:01:26

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#62 2007-09-21 16:40:51

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#63 2007-09-24 05:54:49

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