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#1 2021-07-15 14:13:05

tahanson43206
Moderator
Registered: 2018-04-27
Posts: 7,305

Mystery Battery Technology

https://www.yahoo.com/finance/news/shel … 47296.html

The Telegraph
Shell starts selling power from giant battery in Wiltshire
Rachel Millard
Thu, July 15, 2021, 6:50 AM

Ms. Millard managed to write a modest length article without describing the technology used.

If any forum Internet sleuths can find out what the Chinese have provided, I'd be most interested.

***
For SpaceNut .... before creating this new topic, I looked at ** all ** the topics that contain "batter" and none seemed a good fit.

(th)

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#2 2021-07-15 16:01:20

Calliban
Member
From: Northern England, UK
Registered: 2019-08-18
Posts: 1,154

Re: Mystery Battery Technology

Lithium iron phosphate (from the link below)
https://www.nsenergybusiness.com/projec … e-project/


Interested in space science, engineering and technology.

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#3 2021-07-15 17:33:11

tahanson43206
Moderator
Registered: 2018-04-27
Posts: 7,305

Re: Mystery Battery Technology

For Calliban re #2

Thanks for finding that link!  I'll follow it shortly, on another system.

This topic will remain available for future unexplained discoveries.

In the mean time:

SearchTerm:battery lithium iron phosphate
SearchTerm:Lithium iron phosphate battery
SearchTerm:iron phosphate lithium battery
SearchTerm:Phosphate litium iron battery

(th)

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#4 2021-07-15 18:19:37

louis
Member
From: UK
Registered: 2008-03-24
Posts: 6,859

Re: Mystery Battery Technology

Not liking the fact that "Chine-yah" as the legitimate President of the USA used to call it is involved in yet another UK energy project. At this rate they could just shut us down within 24 hours.


Let's Go to Mars...Google on: Fast Track to Mars blogspot.com

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#5 2021-07-15 18:45:30

tahanson43206
Moderator
Registered: 2018-04-27
Posts: 7,305

Re: Mystery Battery Technology

For Calliban re #2...

Here are quotes from the article you suggested ... thanks again ...

The 150MW Minety battery storage facility will comprise three 50MW adjacently located battery units utilising lithium-iron-phosphate (LiFePO4)/ ternary lithium battery technology for storing electricity. Each battery unit will feature multiple inverters for discharging the stored electricity in alternate current (AC).

China-based Sungrow is responsible to integrate the battery storage systems for the 100MW project by using lithium batteries supplied by Samsung and Contemporary Amperex Technology (CATL

I'm still intending to try to learn how this particular combination of elements differs from other lithium batteries ...

It could be that this particular combination is superior for the intended purpose, as compared to automobile or device applications.

For Louis ... it appears the British are making a useful contribution, by controlling the flow of current.   Since the system resides in Britain, I'm assuming the IP is protected, although a smart engineer could probably deduce what is going on. 

The key here seems to be the Chinese financing .... it would appear that the British are no longer able to afford to finance projects on this scale.  Another possibility is that the enterprise is risky, and the Chinese are willing to take the risk, while more cautious investors are holding their cards to see how things work out.

Google was a great help as (almost) always:

It turns out this combination of materials ** is ** favored for the power backup application !!!

Image: lifepo4battery-factory.com
Major advantages of Lithium Iron Phosphate:

Very safe and secure technology (No Thermal Runaway)
Very low toxicity for the environment (use of iron, graphite, and phosphate)
Calendar life > 10 ans
Cycle life: from 2000 to several thousand (see chart below)
Operational temperature range: up to 70°C
Very low internal resistance. Stability or even decline over the cycles.
More items...

Lithium iron phosphate vs lithium-ion: differences and advantages
www.lithium-battery-factory.com/lithium-iron-phosphate-vs-lithium-ion/
Was this helpful?
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Benefits of Lithium Iron Phosphate batteries (LiFePO4)
https://www.super-b.com/en/lithium-iron-phosphate...
Lithium iron phosphate battery advantages. Lithium iron phosphate batteries (LiFePO4 or LFP) offer lots of benefits compared to lead-acid batteries and other lithium batteries. Longer life span, no maintenance, extremely safe, lightweight, improved discharge and charge efficiency, just to name a few. LiFePO4 batteries are not the cheapest in the market, but due to a long life span and zero maintenance, it’s the …

4 Advantages Of Installing Lithium Iron Phosphate ...
https://goenergylink.com/blog/4-lithium … advantages
Jun 11, 2021 · June 11, 2021 Lithium iron phosphate (LFP) batteries, provide an efficient, reliable, safe and environmentally-friendly method of renewable energy storage. This particular lithium chemistry is ideal for high power applications and energy projects such as solar energy installations. What are lithium iron phosphate batteries?

The Benefits of Choosing Lithium Iron Phosphate Batteries
https://www.solarips.com/blog/2020/march/the...
Mar 23, 2020 · With no rare metals or battery acid, a lithium iron phosphate battery will remain stable in extreme temperatures up to 158ºF (versus 140ºF for conventional lithium-ion batteries), with zero risks of explosion or fire even when punctured or damaged.

The lithium iron phosphate battery or LFP battery, is a type of lithium-ion battery using lithium iron phosphate as the cathode material, and a graphitic carbon electrode with a metallic backing as the anode. The energy density of LiFePO₄ is lower th…

Wikipedia iconWikipedia

Energy density: 325 Wh/L (1200 kJ/L)
Nominal cell voltage: 3.2 V
Specific energy: 90–160 Wh/kg (320–580 J/g or kJ/kg)
Specific power: around 200 W/kg

After scanning that collection of snippets, I can understand (to some extent) why this choice is favorable for the load balancing application.

(th)

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#6 2021-07-15 19:34:01

SpaceNut
Administrator
From: New Hampshire
Registered: 2004-07-22
Posts: 23,078

Re: Mystery Battery Technology

The lithium is still the key ingredient to making the battery work and that is in limited supply and hard to recycle....

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#7 2021-07-16 02:13:35

Calliban
Member
From: Northern England, UK
Registered: 2019-08-18
Posts: 1,154

Re: Mystery Battery Technology

SpaceNut wrote:

The lithium is still the key ingredient to making the battery work and that is in limited supply and hard to recycle....

Yes.  The scarcity of lithium is one of the main reasons why the sodium sulphur battery was pursued, in spite of its problems with fire.  Sodium and sulphur are both very common elements.  Unfortunately, the NaS is only really suitable in large stationary units, although it may be useful for heavy trucks and trains, where it could provide 100s of kW.  Maybe ships.


Interested in space science, engineering and technology.

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#8 2021-07-16 08:04:27

kbd512
Administrator
Registered: 2015-01-02
Posts: 4,612

Re: Mystery Battery Technology

louis wrote:

Not liking the fact that "Chine-yah" as the legitimate President of the USA used to call it is involved in yet another UK energy project. At this rate they could just shut us down within 24 hours.

Louis,

It's "Chai-nah"... or something like that.  I'm not sure why you're trying to blame this on President Biden.  Your government set this deal up.  President Trump offered American coal / oil / gas to Europe, but your leaders would rather trade with the Russians and Chinese.  That's who you're relying on now, so make an effort not to upset them.

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#9 2021-07-16 13:48:26

louis
Member
From: UK
Registered: 2008-03-24
Posts: 6,859

Re: Mystery Battery Technology

I've always said the Nixon-Kissinger China policy was one of the worst geopolitical mistakes of the 20th century. I've always argued China should be contained, as was the Soviet Union, as long as it remains a ruthless Communist dictatorship.

kbd512 wrote:
louis wrote:

Not liking the fact that "Chine-yah" as the legitimate President of the USA used to call it is involved in yet another UK energy project. At this rate they could just shut us down within 24 hours.

Louis,

It's "Chai-nah"... or something like that.  I'm not sure why you're trying to blame this on President Biden.  Your government set this deal up.  President Trump offered American coal / oil / gas to Europe, but your leaders would rather trade with the Russians and Chinese.  That's who you're relying on now, so make an effort not to upset them.


Let's Go to Mars...Google on: Fast Track to Mars blogspot.com

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#10 2021-07-16 15:00:21

tahanson43206
Moderator
Registered: 2018-04-27
Posts: 7,305

Re: Mystery Battery Technology

This topic is NOT about politics, or opinions about politics.

This topic ** is ** about battery technology ... Louis, you caused a departure in Post #4.

I understand that you were impulsively moved to say something that came to mind, and you chose this topic to do it.

For SpaceNut .... please think about how members (like Louis in this case) can post something off topic and have it noticed by the member they want to reach.

I was ** hoping ** this topic might prove useful for someone (in future) to read from top to bottom and come away with useful knowledge.

A digression into political opinion detracts from that objective.

(th)

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#11 2021-07-17 09:51:44

SpaceNut
Administrator
From: New Hampshire
Registered: 2004-07-22
Posts: 23,078

Re: Mystery Battery Technology

word variation was in first post and all that can be done is ignore it rather than get into the national ideology aspects of politics.

So where are the earth's deposit of lithium and what are the energy needs to gather it, purify the mineral for use.

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#12 2021-07-26 07:42:05

tahanson43206
Moderator
Registered: 2018-04-27
Posts: 7,305

Re: Mystery Battery Technology

https://www.yahoo.com/news/ceo-iron-air … 00983.html

This week, Form came forward to announce a new $200 million funding round led by global steel and mining giant ArcelorMittal, which produces massive amounts of iron that can be used in Form’s battery systems.

Before that, it received backing from Breakthrough Energy Ventures, a climate investment fund whose investors include billionaires Bill Gates and Jeff Bezos, along with Italian oil giant Eni and Energy Impact Partners, a utility-backed investment firm.

“We have attracted interest across a pretty broad spectrum because smart investors see this energy transition is happening quickly and see we are making tons of progress on the technology,” Jaramillo said.

Investors are also betting on the resumes of Jaramillo, known for developing Tesla’s Powerwall battery, and Form co-founder Yet-Ming Chiang, a professor at MIT who previously co-founded A123 Systems, a lithium-battery developer.

Still, Jaramillo sees “elements of the vocational mission” in his work on energy.

“I have always wanted to spend my time on meaningful things,” he said. “I see energy as inextricable from human activity and, therefore, human happiness.”

Now, Jaramillo’s iron-air batteries are poised to compete with a crowded mix of startups racing to develop long-duration energy-storage techniques.

(th)

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#13 2021-07-26 17:51:58

SpaceNut
Administrator
From: New Hampshire
Registered: 2004-07-22
Posts: 23,078

Re: Mystery Battery Technology

The "A123 Systems, a lithium" is not a rechargeable battery,,,,,

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#14 2021-07-26 18:05:57

tahanson43206
Moderator
Registered: 2018-04-27
Posts: 7,305

Re: Mystery Battery Technology

It would appear the "air/iron" battery uses no Lithium?

I'm still not clear on what the air/iron technology is, but will keep watching for an explanation.

The only detail  I've picked up so far is that the chemistry involves turning iron into rust, which (I assume) must (somehow) cause a voltage drop.

Apparently voltage is used to unrust the rust so it can be used again.

I wonder if something like that could be applied to iron in the environment, so it "unrusts" as fast as it rusts?

Later ...

Google came up with this:

Iron–air battery is a type of metal–air battery that combines metallic negative electrode having a low redox potential with air positive electrode. The basic components of iron–air battery are iron negative electrode, air positive electrode, and alkaline electrolyte.
Metal Air Battery - an overview | ScienceDirect Topics
www.sciencedirect.com › topics › earth-and-planetary-sciences › metal-air-...
About Featured Snippets

I wonder if the "air positive" electrode is also made of iron, or something else?

Thinking out loud here ... so air passes by a positively charged electrode ... Why would the average air molecule care?

Interesting!

Later ...

More from Google:

Basic Theory of Metallic Corrosion - Allied Corrosion Industries, Inc.
www.alliedcorrosion.com › basic-theory-of-metallic-corrosion
There must be a positive or anodic area, referred to as the “anode”. ... The amount of metal that will corrode (rust) is directly proportional to the amount ...

I wonder if there is physical movement of the material from air into the liquid bath and back out again?

Oxygen would presumably be released while the material is in the liquid bath.  No need to lose that ... the unit could be sealed, with Oxygen cycling back and forth between captured and free states.

(th)

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#15 2021-07-26 18:25:12

SpaceNut
Administrator
From: New Hampshire
Registered: 2004-07-22
Posts: 23,078

Re: Mystery Battery Technology

The iron chemistry must be altered to allow for a no moisture break down of the iron bonds to all for it to become an oxide....
an electrolyte is wet or dry but for it to react there must be some sort of electron exchange to make current flow.

So to work with solids the electrolyte would be more like a membrane but oxygen is not a solid so all it can do is pass through it as it can not be a contact electrode.

using a wet electrolyte and membrane would make it more like a flow battery in that the oxygen would be the means to save or expend a charge via the membrane.

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#16 2021-07-26 20:14:12

tahanson43206
Moderator
Registered: 2018-04-27
Posts: 7,305

Re: Mystery Battery Technology

Google came up with this about the iron-air battery:

https://www.rechargenews.com/energy-tra … -1-1044174

The battery is said to work through “reversible oxidation of iron”. In discharge mode, thousands of tiny iron pellets are exposed to the air, which makes them rust (ie, the iron turning to iron oxide). When the system is charged with an electric current, the oxygen in the rust is removed, and it reverts back to iron.

Wiley said that a 300MW “pilot” project for Minnesota-based Great River Energy will be commissioned in 2023.

That project, announced in May last year, was originally due to be a 1MW/150MWh demonstration plant capable of outputting 1MW for 150 hours straight.

The mysterious 150-hour battery that can guarantee renewables output during extreme weather
Read more
The air battery is a fairly recent invention that has been the subject of research for at least the past decade.

I'll bet there are patents .... there would ** have ** to be ...

Later: Google came up with this list ...

US20120187918A1 - Iron-air rechargeable battery - Google ...https://patents.google.com › patent
Patent citations (26) — ... Battery Technologies International Metal air storage battery ... carbon dioxide from a metal-air or fuel cell battery.

WO2017006666A1 - Negative electrode for iron-air secondary ...https://www.google.com › patents
Patent citations (3) — JP2012074371A * 2010-09-02 2012-04-12 Kobe Steel Ltd Solid electrolyte material, and metal-air all-solid secondary battery ...

WO2011013004A1 - Metal-air battery with improved ... - Googlehttps://www.google.com › patents
Patent citations (29) — ... Corporation A cathode assembly for metal-air button cells ... Et Mecaniques Alsthom Air battery and electrochemical method.

Tesla obtains patent for charging metal-air battery technology ...https://electrek.co › 2017/02/13 › tesla-patent-metal-air-...
Feb 13, 2017 — On January 31, Tesla was granted another patent for the technology. This one is about charging a metal-air battery. Here's the abstract from the ...

Tesla granted patent on metal-air battery charginghttps://www.greencarreports.com › News › Electric Cars
Feb 20, 2017 — On January 31, Tesla was granted a patent related to charging technology for a metal-air battery, according to Electrek. A metal-air battery ...

Metal-gas Cell Patents and Patent Applications (Class 429/402)https://patents.justia.com › patents-by-us-classification
The power system may also have an aluminum-air battery connected to the traction motor. The power system may further have a circuit fluidly connected to the ...

US Patent for Biphase electrolyte for a metal-air battery Patent ...https://patents.justia.com › patent
May 30, 2017 — A metal-air battery comprising a two phase electrolyte system is provided. The two phase electrolyte system contains an aqueous phase and an ...

Iron-air rechargeable battery - Patent US-8758948-B2 ...https://pubchem.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov › patent › US-8758948...
Iron-air rechargeable battery · Contents · 1Abstract · 2Full Text · 3Important Dates · 4Inventor · 5Assignee · 6Linked Chemicals · 7Patent Family.

Startup Claims Breakthrough in Long-Duration Batteries - WSJhttps://www.wsj.com › articles › startup-claims-breakthrou...
5 days ago — Form Energy says it has built a low-cost iron-air battery that can ... Form bought its patents as well as its inventory of thousands of ...

Tesla's metal-air battery patent: Carpe 'Battery' Diem or ...https://www.teslarati.com › News
Sep 17, 2020 — Tesla was recently granted a US patent titled, “Hazard mitigation through gas flow communication between battery packs,” and with the ...

(th)

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#17 2021-08-01 16:48:26

SpaceNut
Administrator
From: New Hampshire
Registered: 2004-07-22
Posts: 23,078

Re: Mystery Battery Technology

SpaceNut wrote:

Why we need energy has little to do with  EROI or of its price but more to do with the things which require it to be able use them in our homes and vehicles we use to travel farther faster.
Earth's energy imbalance removes almost all doubt from human-made climate change

As for the iron air battery; Iron is the worst power conductor of all metals from what I remember...

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#18 2021-08-01 16:49:12

SpaceNut
Administrator
From: New Hampshire
Registered: 2004-07-22
Posts: 23,078

Re: Mystery Battery Technology

tahanson43206 wrote:

For SpaceNut re #42

Silver, Copper, Gold, Aluminum, Zinc and Platinum.  Those are the names I remember from a long ago course on electronics.  That is the order of conductivity.

Iron is not on the list, for sure.

The purpose of the tiny particles of iron is to engage with oxygen molecules to hold or to release energy.  In that context, I would invite you to show how conductivity is significant.

It may be ....

It would help everyone to understand the battery if you can find a discussion of the physics of this battery type.

Thanks for the energy imbalance link!

(th)

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#19 2021-08-01 17:03:41

SpaceNut
Administrator
From: New Hampshire
Registered: 2004-07-22
Posts: 23,078

Re: Mystery Battery Technology

From earlier posts the "components of iron–air battery are iron negative electrode" which is not a particle but solid...

"air positive electrode, and alkaline electrolyte." first air is not possible as an electrode for a battery connection, and while it could be in solution of the alkaline you need a means to pass the charge to the electrode....

This would mean the electrode is a lattice of metal that has holes for the oxygen to pass into and stores with in it as we use the battery. When its recharge the oxygen would be forced back out of the lattice in to the electrolyte....

This is simular to the hydrogen storage lattice...

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/a … 8519300335

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/a … 7219300318

https://www.osti.gov/pages/servlets/purl/1373737
Metal-Air Batteries: Future Electrochemical Energy Storage of Choice?

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#20 2021-08-06 21:34:09

SpaceNut
Administrator
From: New Hampshire
Registered: 2004-07-22
Posts: 23,078

Re: Mystery Battery Technology

I know there was a question on the 150 hours but without the Ampere hours all I can give is the equation which happens to be
A hr / a = hr where a is the amperes that one is using

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