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#1 2021-07-13 13:53:38

Registered: 2006-03-23
Posts: 8,288

How Mars 'culturally' Does Not become a 'Failed State'

People often talk about Mars as a new frontier, a new scientific and political commitment to building a place a Nation of Mars people, a place to put Ships, the New Colony or Outpost of Mankind on Another planet. ...what kind of midset and culture would Mars be, would the langauge of English or Russian or Chinese or French or Hindi or Japanese change the way Mars thought and explored the new planet.

What if the first on Mars the explorers and builders were for example 'Boer Afrikaans' speakers?...Would it change anything??


#2 2021-07-13 13:58:32

Registered: 2006-03-23
Posts: 8,288

Re: How Mars 'culturally' Does Not become a 'Failed State'

Is the Mars City going to be the Utopia or is it destined to become as aggressive and war mongering and ferocious as our Earth was? Are space advocates ready for all the possible politcaland cultural implications of future failures? Even if we as humans suddenly or almost 'magically' had the tech and hardware to start shipping people to Mars it is possible that over the next 50 years Mars could see one colony fail after another. Even on Earth we can still have massive problems, we look at Mars as a future but Mars could also have these issues on our Earth crime and greed and poverty. On Earth there is still violence and have people who have acess to water, their lands have growth, they can trade by road and sea routes and there are crops and sunlight, yet some of these places are taken by Corruption and War, there is Greed and Exploitation of people, some Homicidal Countries and Murder Nations across the World, Somalia, El Salvador, South Africa, the Caribbean island of Saint Kitts and Nevis, Belize in Central America, Nigeria, Iraq, Burundi, Swaziland are some of the world's most dangerous countries on Earth...if Mars was to have a sudden loss of food, minerals, water and other resources would its people and culture become a place of desperation, war and violence?
The strange thing about crime and violence is Iceland, a place which doesnt have much industry, which has limited resources a place like this can rank with some of the overall lowest crime rates worldwide, Japan massively industruial the tokyo metropolitan region people crammed together in small spaces and almost over-populated, is also one of the least violent and lowest crime places on there something in an economy, the society and something inside a culture that helps a people work together in harmony? It does not seem to be about ethnicity or language or identity either, Switzerland has low crime despite having a mix of peoples, Sigapore s also a mix of peoples, there is not much murder and vandalism or burning or violence, crime in Singapore is low with the predominant forms being theft, pickpocketing, and purse snatching.
If Mars is to be mutil cultural how would its leader be? Would the people on Mars be asked to make sacrifices as JFK once asked, would Mars need a leader an speaker “Ask not what your Colony can do for you – ask what you can do for your Colony,” or with a conest with others looming would it need a tougher leader, Mars colony always on the edge of failure need some sort of 'Benevolent Dictatorship' to keep it all moving?

How can people maintain Mars as a postive place for exploration, tourism, production, colonization and scientific exploration while at the same time to capitalize on the future potentials of Mars?  Would it be better to build the first human colony or New-Washington or New-Beijing on Mars, or on the Moon? Most scientists say the planet Mars will be far easier to colonize than our Moon, almost everyone looking at the data says it will be far better to build the first town on Mars, far better to live on Mars than on the Lunar surface? If Mars is colonized it might be a technological government and scifi-ish companies and Mega-Corporation of the future, maybe people with robotic parts and engineered humans are used to exploit Mars. A risk now in that future it is possible we will set the seeds for a class race hierarchy of control, the class of engineered animals and humans built for Mars and the 'other' normals of Earth. There is nothing to say Mars itself won't go back to some of the dark oppressive ways of human history, studying its own new people, the Same or Different Ethnicity and Personality type or IQ or genetics in the Human Colony. The Mars government could decide to become Imperial and Monarch if it breaks away, it could be a Technocracy, it might be an Aristocracy or Oligarchy, it could be Theocratic or Authoritarian, it could be WildWest Anarchist or Junta the military Commander becoming President, it might be ruled by Warlords or Land owners, a Timocracy of sorts, those who are accumulators of coin and electronic product and currency and commodity and wealth it could go Fascist or Socialist, it coud become very Orwellian 1984 like for and against people who don't 100% fit in to that new colony. It could be possible Mars colonization could be for at the right reasons at the start but change in its own way over time, it could be a NASA thing or International in scope with Private backing, but led by NASA but any colonization could become a failure, an future Mars State might fail for any numbers of reasons. Or maybe start good but not a failed colony maybe not live up to its potential like a place overtaken by sickness, the poverty, extremism and violence and human economic failures of Venezuela, Aghanistan, S.Africa or Iran? There is now a multi-cutural commitment to Mars with spacecraft coming from ESA, Japan, Roscosmos, ISRO and the CNSA—and private organizations— the colonization companies might form bigger companies the SpaceX, Lockheed Martin for example and Boeing and others forming Super Corporations like the Great Anglo-Dutch-British Tea Company of the older world. The political fools in the United States from Boulder Colorado, Berkeley Commiefornia and Arizona State and kamikaze Japanese have supported an islamic Mars Mission. The science returned will be limited but in a strange way this 'mission' could have opened a future possibility of jihadism and islamism and idiot mohammedans on Mars. The places like Dubai and Emirates are not a democracy, they are Islamic kingship empires under Sharia law rules or they are an Absolute islamic monarchy, they are religious ethnostates with control over what ethnic breed of people can marry and date another, they have control over what muslim and non-muslim can date or marry, they have Sharia Courts and they have Blasphemy law, many follow the Quran or Koran to the letter. This strange limited science mission supported by NASA and JAXA it has possibly opened a route public funding of any religious Mars institution, the dumbest most stupid religions made by man on planet Earth, this religious stupidity from Earth could one day be exported to Mars.

Would it be wise to engineer a new human for Mars, would this possibly contribute to a possiblity of some future Class War or maybe Race War? South Africa historically has some interesting firsts and events noted by history, in ancient times South Africa was probably populated by a Capoid Khoisan Native or indigenous South Africans collectively referred to as the Khoisan, over time these Khoisan which once walked all of Africa probably were displaced and attacked by Bantus from within Niger-Congo a later ethnic group and culture and language that drove out Natives over time in an ancient tribal 'Race War' of sorts. Portuguese sailed down Africa's coast and During the 14th, 15th, 16th, 17th and 18th century, explorers now traded, settled, they traveled down the west African Coast, they built forts, set up farms, made homes.  Dutch East India Company established a trading post in Cape Town, a ethnic group and culture called the Afrikaner Boers arrived in South Africa, some of these came from the modern territory of the Dutch, French, German and Beligan nations, the Boer Afrikaans no longer exist in Europe, if they were to vanish from South Africa these people and language would possibly go extinct? It is undeniable the people of South Africa ad a European culture, the European Boer built their cities, it is in the art and architecture and design and old culture, Afrikaans people is generally used in modern-day South Africa for the white Afrikaans-speaking population of South Africa. From the British Empire there came migrations of other peopels predominantly Hindu, but sometimes Muslims, Arab Christians, Jewish and Buddhist and also the ethnic religious group of Sikhs also came to South Africa from India. The Afrikaans fought wars against Bantu invaders, Zulu militarism and expansionism. The Dutch Republic was powerful, a new Empire in the Age of Discovery, Holland Netherlands had colonies in Australia, they had parts of Brazil, the Dutch controlled New York in the United States of America, they took parts of India and in the end the English would attack the Dutch and a new more powerful British Empire take almost everything they had. The British imperialist Cecil Rhodes co-founded De Beers Mines a new hunt and amalgamation for Gold and Daimonds, the individual claims with finance provided by the Rothschild banker dynasty, later the Oppenheimer family also occupied much of South Africa's wealth. The new South African Republics would later go to war against the British in the Anglo-Boer Wars, there are horrific accounts wrote on the wars it was said the Second war was particular type of brutality the Second Boer War had British putting their European Boer cousins in concentration camps. The Boer Cape Colony population grew to include a large number of mixed-race or mix cultural and ethnic peoples so-called "coloureds" who were the offspring of extensive interracial relations between male Dutch settlers, Khoikhoi females, and female slaves imported from Dutch colonies in the East. The new members of this new mixed-race community formed the core of what was to become the Griqua people. Under apartheid the Griqua insisted they were not Bantu African Black Negroid or Negroes they were given a special racial classification, some Indian Hindus were also in a Race War of sorts against African Blacks. 

In the First and Second World War the military and ports of South africa became assets to the British Royal Navy, not always smooth sailing though and one time South Africa almost rebelled and joined the German side in WW1, rebel leaders that showed sympathy to Germans in WW1 were prosecuted, fined heavily and sentenced to imprisonment. South Africa seem to have its own class system and conflict among its mixes of cultures and ethnicity, even the Indian pacifist Mahatma Gandhi could be recorded as the racist, complaing of African savages or saying that Indian is being dragged down to the position of a 'Raw Kaffir' a slur for Black Africans, Gandhi was an anti-colonial India nationalist but he did not want Hindu classed with the natives of South Africa or Negroids from jungle areas of Africa. Gandhi complained of laws and rule which might be necessary for the Kaffirs who would not work, but absolutely useless with regard to the Indians. These 21 years in South Africa, are part of what developed Gandhi's political views, ethics and world view politics. Partition of India began in 1947, in 1948 a Hindu nationalist assassinated Gandhi by firing three bullets into his chest.
In modern times South Africa has seen an end to Apartheid, its new social and political breed of thinkers and entrepreneur and innovators have become leaders and millionaires and billionaires, Mark Shuttleworth was the second self-funded space tourist, he became the first South African to travel to space as a space tourist the first African from an independent country to travel to space, Elon Reeve Musk was born on June  in Pretoria, South Africa.  The social policy of Apartheid “apartness” was the ideology supported by the government of South Africa and and supported having different ethnicity of people in different hoods, a separate development of the different racial groups in South Africa, apartheid system in South Africa was ended through a series of negotiations between 1990 and 1993, the UN identified apartheid as a "crime against humanity" there were sanctions and embargos and trade blockades, there was a ban on trade, cease the sale and shipment of arms, ammunition and military vehicles to South Africa.  South Africa is the only country in Africa that operates a nuclear power plant by the year 1994, the IAEA confirmed thatall of South Africa’s nuclear weapons had been dismantled. South Africa will probably continue to use Nuclear Energy to give electrical power, five countries, South Korea, France, Russia, US, and China have bid to supply the reactors. In modern times South Africa has seen a rise of chaos and violence, the growing fight in South Africa over land, politics and ethnic and cultural 'identity'. It's First Nations Native people seem to have Been Forgotten in the new Multi-Cultural mix that is a modern South Africa, the new rainbow natio0n of south Africa has become an almost confusing mix of 11 Official languages, its has many different peoples and cultures and religions. Crime and Rape and Theft and Shootings are going off the scale in the modern South Africa, it has become one of the most dangerous nations for people to live on planet Earth.

Colonization of Mars could be a contests bewteen the Western style democracy of the United States and the China ideas for government and trade, the Chinese style neo-Socialism. One idea could be to have Mars become competing States or a series of Mars colonies in competition against each other but even then could it become the worst of Communism and worst of Capitalism in a contest with each other, will Mars itself give birth to its own unique weird new form of governments will it be Extra-Cosmo-political rule, a newer Neo- form of government? The hazards of putting people on this new world and building a city there will include radiation exposure during a trip to Mars and solar stroms and cosmic rays on its surface, toxic soil, low gravity, the isolation that accompanies Mars' distance from Earth among other dangers, robots can be sent to Mars first to perpare a colony, machines can be sent before the people of the cities arrive making a difficult life easier.
Is the Chinese plan to build on Mars first with its robots, before any Astronuat or Cosmonaut or Taikonaut arrives?

I sometimes wonder watching scifi if the default of humanity is a Utopia nice dreamy system or a Dystopian nightmare...maybe the future of humanity and new colonies on new planets won't be exactly something good or bad but something neutral in between. Maybe our humanity will do great wonderful things in the future but we will also have the scary dark ideas in our future, tribalism, greed, exploitation, there may still be stealings and lootings in the future, there could still be murder and theft and conquests? Some humans will ahve their own character type, their own breed or mindset, their own blood and education heritage and mind that tells them to follow or breed or save up or be a leader type, some might be morning people, some could have more endurance, others could be night owls more active at night time, Mars will have its own unique calendar,  if you traded some bitcoin dogecoin stock thing from a place on Mars would it match the cycle and opening hours for trade on Earth or would they run on Mars time with a solar day 24 hours, 39 minutes and 35 seconds?
Is it possible that not just political backing but the languages and ideas and cultures arriving on Mars will play a part in its sucess or failures. Will the languages and politics and cultures of Mars shape its chance for sucess?
People themselves can be different personality and thinking brain types, some people are explorers, some are very rational and others are creators and artists and innovators, some are rational and some act on experiences and feelings and 'Intuition'. Sometimes the very langauge we spea will shape the way we see our worlds, the languages themselves will chance how peopel record events in their minds, the cultures of people and the languages of Russian, Spanish, Hebrew, Yiddish, Kurmanji, Armenian, Kurdish, Turkish, Arabic, Portugese, English, Chinese, French, Hindi, German, Japanese, they way these words form can often change people's perceptions of reality and how they think, the 'culture' of Mars will possibly change and shape its destiny.

Right now I feel NASA the agency of the U.S. federal government, the US Private Sector like Musk and the Chinese have a chance at colonization of Mars but let's also assume in the future others could join from whatever place, Brazil, Europe, Japan, S.Korea, Australia, Canada, Russia whatever place that could possibly contribute. Let's say people soon land on Mars and there are a few sites on Mars but only 50 people in total, Mars sites might fail but over time with more astronauts and colonies this might expand into cities and towns of 15,000 people or 25,000 + peoples. It won't be long before the colonization will experience problems even with 50 people you could have massive issues. Mars will be colder than the coldest places of the South Pole, it might constantly break the records of −89.2 °C −128.6 °F as recorded in Antartica stations, we know a lot about radition on space stations in LEO, we know less about radiation astronauts will recieve on the Moon and Mars, the effects of Cosmic rays, Solar Flares, ionizing radiation, we don't really know the long term effects on Astronauts or Colonists or 'Mars Tourists', it could be a more difficult challenge than working on Chernobyl, Fukushima, Three Mile Island, working on the worst Oil spill and worst landslide and cave-ins, we don't know what the lower gravity and 'Dust' on the Moon and Mars will do to people. Even if we try to change the air it will be a long time before it changes, it will be thiner than being on top of a mountain higher than Everest, dust storms might cause electronic issues or block sunlight needed to provide energy to Solar farms and Biodomes and Greenhouse, Mars is possible but it will be a massive challenge.

Mars could be briefly out of touch from the leadership and Presidents and politics back home, like how colonies of the newworld were cut off from the older world during the Age of Discovery or Age of Exploration and colonization. The Moon is much closer but some say impossible to colonize while Mars offers something that might be soon possible, it has a far less harsh climate than the Lunar Landscape. Unless some weird exotic cosmology sciences are exploited by FTL quantum entanglement or wormhole physics I believe Mars will still be far away from Earth, cut off by certain delay in communcations and travel time. Mars has its own Lagrangian points that can be exploited, they may offer position for studfy and exploration, theer is a natural asteroid at a Mars L point, there was the idea of creating an artifical magnetic field for Mars at one of these points. An orbiting space station could be set up to relay goods and information to and from Mars, talking to Mars from Earth takes anywhere from 14 to 30 minutes for a signal to be sent and an acknowledgement to be received, depending on where Mars is in its orbit, talking with stations could be between 3 and 22 minutes, there will be different levels of risk, taking off and landings, In-space Environment and once a Bio-Dome is built hopefully Mars is now a low risk enviornment. Mars will probably want to break away from Earth politics over time and the people there have better control and autonomy over their own destiny.

If Mars is to have Treaty and Laws then perhaps ask how to write so there is no impediment on space development efforts?
Will these future Martians in future generations look on their own age of colonization with happiness and pride, will they appreciative and smile at their own glorious history? Would the formation of a new Martian land and a government of Mars be recorded as a gift from God, a wonderful happening of religious praise and celebration and worship and writing and paintings and admiration. Events like Revisionism, negationism a re-examination of historical times and Neo-Liberalism sometimes has seen old icons attacked in Western countries, regret and sympathy is expressive for what happend to Native Americans, there are battles on streets between crowds of BLM, AltRights and Antifas, there are elements in the West Left and Marxists that target icons, statues of Columbus for example attacked and smashed across Latin America and North America? in Britain England a statue dumped in the river

Perhaps colonization of Mars will be nothing like the European age of exploration and colonization of the Americas? Will the Constitution of Mars be written in English or Japanese or Russian or Spanish or Chinese or maybe even a new Martian solar-system language? In April 2021 ...not an April Fools joke Elon Musk changed his bio and tweets and started to proclaim himself emperor of Mars, it freaked some news media out and got reactions online, people now though Musk was going to be some kind of Lex Luthor or some kind of Ronny Cox Vilos Cohaagen character.

Musk admits people will be lost, he still wants a Mars colony. There have been DeadlyRaces to the South Pole, people lost trying to be  on a Mountain, life was lost in Apollo,  the Soviets seen a Russian parachute failure that killed its cosmonaut, there were 2 Shuttle flights lost killing 7 in Space Shuttle Challenger disaster including a private space teacher and killed seven crew members including two international astronauts. Historically looking and European colonialism of the new world there were several failed colonies, such as Roanoke, an early attempt to create a permanent settlement in the 1580s in what would become North Carolina, and later, the colony of New Albion, Franklin's lost expedition seen two ships fail across the North Pole in Canada, ships stuck on ice rocks and crews lots to hypothermia, starvation, lead poisoning or zinc deficiency and diseases including scurvy, along with general exposure to a hostile environment whilst lacking adequate clothing, there were Spanish failures at San Miguel De Gualdape, another failure settlement to be built in North America was founded by Jacques Cartier called  Charlesbourg-Royal after Charles II duke of Orleans, there were failures at Fort San Juan the Spanish fighting with French and Native Americans that would see more colony failures, there was also a famous lost mysterious colony of 'Roanoke' people still are not sure where exactly this site was. There were possible other un-recorded failures in the America's from ancient guys from Siberia or Europe, China arriving on the West coast or Vikings or anicent migrations of people from Siberia and Eskimo and Inuit who may have experieced exploration and failures that were undocumented, folklore in Wales bordered by England to the east, the Irish Sea to the north and west, and the Bristol Channel to the south says a Welsh prince who sailed to America. Getting to the South Pole was a difficult feat for mankind, exploerer people short on supplies, and suffered from exhaustion, getting sick from frostbite and suffering malnourishment, a frostbitten team member apparently sacrificed himself to avoid slowing down the team. Easter Island is an example of a sucessful colony adventure and civilisation ending in failure, it is one of those mystery cultures that was almost lost in the sands of time, it was once a highly productive island, rich in plant and animal life. This island with giant head sculptures was capable at one point of providing for many thousands of people. By the time Europeans explorers and colonials arrived, however, the population had collapsed to a fraction of its original size because the inhabitants had overexploited the island’s plant and animal resources.

Will the the Mars community founded by NASA or Space X or Chinese or other peoples will it declare itself independent at the earliest opportunity? I believe people on a new mars town or biodome or city will probably be far to busy trying to stay alive and keep things working than have time to engage in a protest or subversion or rebel uprising or follow some new age cult religion or do a riot. A religion or political movement or cult might be a threat to a Mars colony but I guess people will be free to do their own 'politik' as long as it is not violent and I am not always against religions, sure Religions can be a threat but Marxism, Atheism and Communism also has killed millions in humanity, for any reason a Mars colony could rebel and the first investor from Earth might have little control over the final outcome. I am not always against some form of Socialism, I guess if a modernized China can colonize Mars good for them but I would prefer the colony to be American. I believe religion might even possible play a role in keeping a community together - Religion can maybe offer good advice and sometimes bad advice and sometimes strange teachings, Demons entering the brains of people who are not doing something good that week, Buddhism explains bad things happening by ways of 'karmic' philosophy the karma thing it makes people interact with monsters and ghosts and 'bad happenings' maybe even from a previous experience and in Western Christian writing you hear things like an 'Idle Mind the Devil's Workshop' is there any truth and advice religion might offer the new colony of Mars? Would Mars colonialism become a military feat? As silly as some religions can be maybe they form a part of Law and Morality and Society the Noble Lie and Half-Truth that can keep a peoples and culture together?
What if Mars suddenly becomes a place for political a scientific extremes, Mars could suddenly become a place for a class of super-men, people doped up on steroids and with machine parts, very Über-human or Nietzschean a place for the perfect Communist solider worker? The SpaceForce says enhanced humans are coming, people with cyborg limbs, printed organs, engineered DNA maybe? The chief scientist for the newly created US Space Force has said he thinks ‘human augmentation’  is the Future of Human Augmentation and Performance Enhancement?  If China put a manned colony on Mars before the United States it is possible that politically it would mean the beginning of Chinese political dominant and of the end of the American dominated era.

How will a corporation or nation prepare a Mars colony, can you have everything ready before the human arrives? It is possible only robots and plants and bugs and worms and only Astronauts and Scientists will go to Mars until it has functional Bio-domes, a newly built Biosphere colony and we start to slowly terraform an atmosphere. Yes after a while some scientists and astronauts might make the big sacrifice and decided to stay and not return home, the citizens of Mars will possibly be living in Domes and bases yes, there is a little that can be done to make it easier for them until we explore new sciences, new tech producers new ways of living on a future space colony and new discovers are made. Mars might become a trade route for peoples of the Asteroids and Moons of the Solar system, the Low tech products shipped around the solar system, a place to test fringe sciences without bureaucratic overlords, food and product grown to sent to the Asteroids to the miners and robots there who are sending the minerals and volatiles to other places, supplying other stations. Mars might have its own economic system, an internal barter trade, a new electronic cin becoming part of a future galactic stock exchange, a Mars government will it always be in debt a government that borrows to meet a need then it pays interest on that loan or will it be like StarTrek or weird StarWars scifi, cash is obsolete because its all about water and minerals or cash is gone and people and pursuit of money is depicted as unevolved greed?

Last edited by Mars_B4_Moon (2021-07-13 14:05:35)


#3 2021-07-13 14:45:13

From: UK
Registered: 2008-03-24
Posts: 7,208

Re: How Mars 'culturally' Does Not become a 'Failed State'

I've written on this before. It seems pretty clear to me that the language will be English, unless the Chinese succeed in getting there first or otherwise dominating the planet.

English is now the language of science, academia, commerce, entertainment, and international politics. It also serves as a kind of lingua franca across the whole of Planet Earth.

It seems highly likely that English would without any other intervention establish itself as the language of Mars. However, if the early colonisation is undertaken by Space X, and Space X is successful in its colonisation plans, that will be even more certain.

I suspect the culture will be quite close to the feel of American university campuses. Probably very PC and culturally a little "shallow". It might be an Aspergers-friendly sort of place, where people who want to focus obsessively on isolated pockets of experience are welcomed rather than mocked.

Now this rather narrow culture might change over time if Mars becomes a place for homesteaders, artists and designers.

If Space X gets there first and succeeds Mars could become a functioning democracy with embedded human rights. If the CCP regime ,  Putin's lot or Saudi billionaires get there first, it will be a straightforward dictatorship, with severely curtailed human rights.

I am strongly in favour of Space X handing over control of the planet to a Mars Consortium that can then evolve into an independent Mars Republic. A "free for all" will be won by the CCP regime eventually (might take them 100 years, but they will be determined to dominate the planet).

The only other approach I see working is an Antarctic Treaty style approach where colonisation will be put on the back burner and we will see only science and reserach outposts. That would suit the CCP regime at the moment so I am expecting them to push for that. Corrupt Biden may agree.

Mars_B4_Moon wrote:

People often talk about Mars as a new frontier, a new scientific and political commitment to building a place a Nation of Mars people, a place to put Ships, the New Colony or Outpost of Mankind on Another planet. ...what kind of midset and culture would Mars be, would the langauge of English or Russian or Chinese or French or Hindi or Japanese change the way Mars thought and explored the new planet.

What if the first on Mars the explorers and builders were for example 'Boer Afrikaans' speakers?...Would it change anything??

Let's Go to Mars...Google on: Fast Track to Mars


#4 2021-07-13 14:58:47

Registered: 2006-03-23
Posts: 8,288

Re: How Mars 'culturally' Does Not become a 'Failed State'

Will Mars be a frontier for frankenstein taboo sciences, will it culturally become the place were machine meets man, where engineered people and genetic modified tree and insect and animals are tested?

Artificial men were often discussed in old folklores, clay type men of wood and machine, they featured in Greek tales, in old ancient Briton Welsh folklore, in the Hindu Indian epic Sanskrit stories of ancient India, the Japanese as a culture might be more robot friendly mayb that's because they have been using mechanized puppets for hundreds of years the Karakuri Ningyo-Japan's Clockwork Puppets, maybe this is why Japan has been more accepting of Cyborgs and Robotics? Religion perhaps is among the most powerful factors shaping attitudes toward building fake machine people or getting involved with stem cell research or human reproductive cloning. The cultural histroy may also be a part of why the fake artifical man is not accepted, the Italians have done puppets for a long time but the Punch and Judy show has a distinct 'nastiness' to it, the story is displayed for kdis across the West but has been toned down in modern time. Judy requests Mr. Punch to look after the baby and he is the worst baby sitter and it is more rare for Punch to hit his baby these days, but he may well sit on it in a failed attempt to "babysit", or drop it, or even let it go through a sausage machine. The Japanese puppet stories seem to be more wishful happy and innocent than your Punch and Judy horror, a hangman arrives, a police puppet will beat him, a crocodile will try to eat him, the Doctor who will arrive and attempt to treat Punch by walloping him maybe these angry violent puppet men left lasting impressions on the different cultures and minds of different peoples, Japanese had a more happy innocent positive impression with fake puppet men?
Japan’s Bunraku Puppet
The culture and writing and media in the West often tells use to be frightened of the plastic man, we ready and beware of the un-natural machine made man. Maybe it was the Luddite movement the sudden industrialization and poor worker condition and protests which seen an association of the machine with Dehumanization, maybe it was the movie themes in Metropolis a 1927 German expressionist science-fiction drama film and all the otehr scary robot films, the Russian Soviet film and story of Planeta bur other Killer Robots in American sicif that would follow, artitical monster men in Hollywood and other places after that made us fear an artificial man, maybe it is the religion of the West that morally seen a created man as un-godly or souless or un-natural? These scifi stories sometimes blend categories of unnatural and human and 'animal' and 'technological' and 'natural' and lectronic and horror and more are far more porous than people tend to admit and present to people in a way that their boundaries should be challenged? Is there something in culture that would see Cyborgs and Robots as Iconography, Machine Idols,  a new science Religion for 'Nonbelievers' Abrahamic religions, in general do not support idolatry,  saying it connotes the worship of something or someone other than God as if it were God. These monotheistic religions, idolatry has been considered as the "worship of false gods" and is forbidden by the values of this religion that originally came from the Middle East but would become the dominant religions of North and South America, Europe and Australia.

The scifi possibility of the Uber-Man is generally a scary story in Western media, be afaird of the Artificial Human, humans themselves might be engineered the perfectly enginnered groups of people the Socialist Soviet-ish citizen? We use artificial limbs in the real world to help people who were victims of cars accidents and wars, in SA in our realworld once again an example Oscar Pistorius is a South African former professional sprinter who was convicted of murder, at times he could out run a human athlete, the perfectly engineered plastic animal leg that replaced man's natural legs, Pistorius’s leg-swing times, when measured on a high-speed treadmill, were off the human charts. Once we start to engineer people some say are we now risking a political conflict, a war and discrimination of a new class of peoples on a future planet. A movie Blade Runner based on Philip K. Dick's short scifi novel 'Do Androids Dream of Electric Sheep' tells the story of Deckard played by actor Harrison Ford. His job chase down artificial men who have gone rogue, the scoundrels and political corporate cirminals, he is to "retire" renegade 'Replicants'. In our science fiction our Artificial Humans look like humans, they move like them but there is something different maybe in the eyes, maybe by the way they speak, their social and political views. Perhaps ideas of artificial humans started to spread more in writing with progress of real world robotics or test tube babies like Louise Brown maybe the science started to become real with Dolly a female domestic sheep and the first mammal cloned? Movies and books that were once slammed by critics of their time for being to dark and depressing have now established much of the tone and flavour of the Cyberpunk movement as well as the film style of Tech Noir and concepts like off world governments, the MegaCorps and 'Technocracy'. The Terminator machine the Blade Runner movie sells us a story about fear in our future, the Robot Dystopia is what the culture and media of the West describe. Maybe the movement of Transhumanism in our real world is misguded it ignores the dangers as expressed in our scifi books and movies, Transhumanism ignores the possible dangers and is another form of techno-optimism?
A scifi story of the future can sometimes be unique and strange, with a weird Matrix mix of Cowboys and Chinese kungfu dressed men, the European culture but with Geishas in advertising? The future might have an element of  cruelty, darkness and slavery to it as Apathetic Citizens look out for their own self in this new Techno Wild West spaceland, they shuffle though a rough hostile frontier, they walk a multi cultural maze of overbearing steel and neon, black, its all about water and oxygen and filters and food stuff and they walk Sinister Subways and Work tunnels where trades are not regulated. In the fictional tv world of StarTrek they said human genetic engineering is illegal in the United Federation of Planets, a guy Julian Bashir hides the history of the resequencing of his DNA, a more scary character Khan is a fictional character in the Star Trek science fiction tv franchise and movies, he takes part in the Eugenics Wars, the 'Khan' character is played by Ricardo Montalbán and Benedict Cumberbatch in the StarTrek remake movies. In the comicbook Judge Dredd, there are Dredd's clones, people engineered to be perfect police men and soliders, 'judge jury and executioner' in a horrible post Apoclaypse setting with people trying to rebuild the new world from a destroyed old world. Nietzscheans were also a concept in the tv show Andromeda, they are a subspecies of genetically engineered humans that consider themselves 'superior' to normal humans.  In the new remade BSG tv show we have Cylons on Battlestar Galactica who make artifical people, these cloned copies betray mankind for invading space robots and nuke planet Earth. In the movies Terminator,  a cyborg assassin known as a Terminator travels througho time itself trying to win a war against humans and assasinates people.The Frankenstein's Monster by Mary Shelly is one of the most classic and well known examples of the 'fake-man' why have we almost always viewed the engineered person with horror in our films and writings?

louis wrote:

  Putin's lot or Saudi billionaires get there first, it will be a straightforward dictatorship

I'm not sure about Russia's long term plans for Mars, for now I will say they continue political stunts in space and on their Mars feats I am un-impressed.
As for the Mohammedans of Dubai or Arab Emirates getting to Mars, I do not believe they would have got to Mars without help from the United States and JAXA. The weird thing to understand about islamics and dictators and jihads is to understand the West often got into bed with radical islam, Regan and Bush Snr and spooks supported islamist terrorism in Afghanistan, Clinton wanted to distract from a blowjob, he looked to Eastern Europe where there were dictators and historical trouble Montenegro, Serbas, Ottoman Turkic-Albainians, Croatia, Macedonia, Serbia, Slovenia, Bosnia...he backed a type of Al Qaeda and the “Mujaheddin” against the Christian people of Serbia, little Bush Jnr got 28 pages of the report on the 911 attacks censored, Russia also gets into bed they back the other disgusting flavor of islamism in Iran, the Hezbollah are often seen carrying Russian made arms. The West has constantly got into bed with islamics and it is possible there are some elites out there who do not want the Middle East evolve, they want them stupid and stuck in a 1400 yr old mindset as it makes them easier to manipulate and more stupid, Iran and Saudi now fighting their proxy wars and their religious extremism have probably destroyed lives of millions upon millions.

louis wrote:

I suspect the culture will be quite close to the feel of American university campuses. Probably very PC and culturally a little "shallow". It might be an Aspergers-friendly sort of place, where people who want to focus obsessively on isolated pockets of experience are welcomed rather than mocked.

Now this rather narrow culture might change over time if Mars becomes a place for homesteaders, artists and designers.

Which culture do you think would be first to put Cyborg people or an Engineered creature or an Artifical Dog on Mars? A fake Dog made of plastics and steel but with a 'Nuclear Heart' personally I think people like the Japanese may have something to offer. Japan has done great effort in working with the United States and Russia and Europe on the Space Station, if they wanted their robots to speak Japanese on their colony that would be fine by me.
There famously was the Bush "ban" on stem cell research, Japan explored this research, China went the opposite way, it was the most permissive human embryonic stem cell policies in the world and with the absence of a public controversy. Christian teaching interpretation, Jewish view and islamics all had issues with stem cells, there seems to be a common religious link here to the moral objection. Perhaps parts of Europe become more Atheist or Scientific Porgressive, smbryonic stem cell lines are permitted in Finland, Greece, the Netherlands, Sweden but many European countries have still banned this taboo science. Some religions in the West say embryonic stem cell research profits from and violates the sanctity of life and is tantamount to murder, US federal laws  placed restrictions on funding and use of stem cell science, under Congress's power to spend.  In the year 2001, Bush signed an executive order which restricted federally funded stem cell research.

I find it interesting how sometimes the West and Asia have different Viewpoints on fringe or taboo sciences. There might be dangers with Artificial Intelligence but also religious reasons to object to AI, it is possible Religion is among the more powerful factors that shape Western attitudes toward human cloning. Transhumanism is the modern movementwhich advocates and predict the enhancement of the human body or condition by developing and making widely available sophisticated technologies. What religion-related questions might be raised by an artifical brain a computer software brain made to be like a human, an AI? In stem cell research, South Africa allows the derivation of human embryonic cells from excess IVF embryos, and also allows for the creation of human embryos for research. Japan for example is not a Communist country and is an ally of the United States but sometimes takes a totally different position or approach, 'Robots' are often seen as something positive in Japan media while in Western media they are more often scary monster creatures.

Last edited by Mars_B4_Moon (2021-07-13 16:15:23)


#5 2021-07-13 17:48:40

Registered: 2006-03-23
Posts: 8,288

Re: How Mars 'culturally' Does Not become a 'Failed State'

In a new world will Mars return humans old fraud ways, to the default state, will it be both the good and the bad. Could Mars be a place of Fraudsters, Gamblers, Exploiters, Tricksters, the Cultist Preacher, the guy with fake science cures and Conartists the Snake Oil Salesmen? Mars will have the political cure for all with deceptive marketing and new fraud scams.
If spaceflight becomes affordable will the UFO-ologists of Earth, the weird new age religions go on spacetreks and make Mars and other places their new homes
Could Mars be populated not by artists but by Con-Artists trying to lure in tourists, fake publicity stunts, paranormal tourism, UFO-ology become money makers for Mars? could the Mars colonists make money selling strange stories of phenomena, ancient alien sites to tourists? Richard C. Hoagland for example made millions selling fake stories of alien cities and peoples and civlisations on Mars, another con-artist Erich von Daniken is an author of who said Alien UFOs built the Pyramids, made many claims about extraterrestrial influences on early human culture. The Mars nation might have topics that people won't touch anymore, it could become home to the crazy madmen preachers, it could become the number 1 radio station and the Mars tv station could be the new home of the raving conspiracy theorist.

Engineering an Uber-Person a Supreme-Man for Mars would be a very taboo event with many moral questions. People might speak against genetic human engineering but right now were are engineering ourself to become more immune to Flues and Virus, we repair parts of our body using Stem Cells, with the Covid virus its becoming mainstream, mRNAs transfer the information from DNA to the cell machinery that makes proteins. ThemRNAs and RNA are studied for fighting rabies, Zika virus disease, cytomegalovirus, and influenza. The  RNA vaccine is a jab enginnered for example to fight something like the Corona virus and the RNA is there to produce a certain immune system response. Prosthetics are simply our artificial limbs, an implanted artificial device that replaces a missing body part, they help people injured, soliders hurt, people who suffered car accidents or other trauma, this science restores normal function to amputees.

Animals are already made and cloned on Earth
Human cloning for Mars would be massively taboo, no nation has claimed to have done this feat it is not in medical practice anywhere currently on our Planet Earth. Clones to happen naturally in nature for example Twins are clones the world's Bananas are Clones but to scientfically make a human clone is seen as taboo and immoral.  wheer it gets paranormal or UFO-ish? There is a real-life cult of humans who claim to clone people they are a mix of science and religion, they talk about old 'Elohim' used as the pantheon for Canaanite gods, the children of El, some of these guys might have smoked a lot of weed in their time, drank too much booze, ate mushrooms and took acid then make claims 'Extraterrestrials Took Me to Their Planet'?
The Raëlianism cult or UFO religion joined with Clonaid, an organisation engaged in research in human cloning, the clone cult firm had links to a South Korea compnay called BioFusion Tech, it was raided by Police and told the prosecutors that 10 Korean women wanted to clone themselves and have filled out applications. The father of musician John Frusciante linked to the Hollyweirdo types and music industry also got involved, he convinced Clonaid's vice president Thomas Kaenzig to talk and Kaenzig testified that Clonaid left him ignorant of the cloning project. Dr Boisselier claimed the birth of a healthy cloned baby girl, nicknamed Eve later Dr. Boisselier testified under oath that there was a cloned child born outside of the U.S. living in Israel, the group  Clonaid is said to have prevented scientists from meeting the purported child and mother. A Raelian cult spokes person in Japan claimed that a baby boy was cloned from a comatose two-year-old of a Japan couple, the improved clone was born!? Some popstar rapper then claimed they were a clone of Clonaid, this was mostly laughed at and mostly perceived as a publicity stunt
What if the people of Mars were to use fake Pilgrimages, pseudo-alien monster tourism, psychic fortune tellers and magical gold casinos, a mix of theatre, ancient alien religion and storytelling and trickery, fake Pyramids and UFO-ology and religion to fund the economy of their new economy would it be a totally immoral thing to do? What will decide the social values and morality of Mars. Would it be any different to the paranormal tourism to ghost houses or loch ness tourism or Roswell festivals?

Last edited by Mars_B4_Moon (2021-07-13 17:54:33)


#6 2023-07-07 06:35:57

Registered: 2006-03-23
Posts: 8,288

Re: How Mars 'culturally' Does Not become a 'Failed State'

Elon Musk has said to the media  few times that he aims to put a million on Mars by 2050 or at least a Million Humans Could Live on Mars By the 2060s...Musk should not be under estimated, he can pull off feats and he should not be over estimated either, he has missed deadline and predictions before so I'm not sure that math adds up.

1 Million is a lot of people for a place that will be difficult to live, however a life inside an artificial Martian Biodome or some type of Biosphere on Mars is a lot more tempting than living on the Moon.

In cultural mathematics, people here on newmars forums have suggested launching all culture, races, all language, mixing different cultures and ethnicity on Mars. I think launching people and languages for a 'diversity quota' and not launching for their experience, knowledge, skill and mental abilities and instead getting involved in some virtue signal political movement could be a future recipe for looming disasters. We even had discussions of putting all types of faiths and religion in space, spreading Mosques to the Moon and Mars.

and when a Militarization Rule dislikes Journalism?

Journalist Evan Gershkovich has been detained for 100 days by Russian government … =100800017

100 days since Wall Street Journal reporter Evan Gershkovich began his prison sentence

A scifi tv show 'For All Mankind' created by Ronald D. Moore, Matt Wolpert, and Ben Nedivi has an alt timeline with North Korea beating Russia and the USA to Mars.

North Korea doesn't even have a manned program but that did not stop the Hollywood Tv fanatsy scifi from exploring such a topic.

What kind of cult of personality, miserable oppressive communist monarchy would the 'DPRK' offer?

'Kim Jong-Un vows to launch another missile after first North Korean test crashed into sea' … im-Jong-Un

and the Neo language of the internet, on Mars will you need to be careful what you click on or 'like'?

'Canadian judge rules thumbs-up emoji can represent contract agreement' … n-contract

What if Mars has a new thought police government that blacks out its own writing, a plan to 'Whitewash' whatever happened in your own past? The new plan 'Delete' your own history because it is uncomfortable, do not learn from it?

'Japan removes Japanese military's role in WWII Okinawa mass suicides from social studies textbooks - The Mainichi' … na/007000c

France covered by Poland news
TVP is a Polish public broadcast service.
France is burning - Macron wants to shut down social media | TVP World

"There are indications that the riots in France are slowly starting to lose their strength, but President Emmanuel Macron still threatens to turn off social media in the country. In today's Rock Rachon, we talk to geoeconomist and analyst Daniel Foubert about these riots, who is benefiting from them, and what their true causes are. An additional aspect of these riots is the misinformation that prevails around the topic. Are the Russians dipping their toes in this turmoil and turning up the tension?"

Macron threatens to cut off social media during protests, after unrest … edia-tools

It seems France is going to change, during the recent unrest 60% + of France people in polls wanted some kind of 'Military Intervention' or 'Police State' or Martial Law to deal with the criminal rioters and North African islamic unrest. A guy Nicolas Dupont-Aignan would have been classed as somewhat Centrist and some of his followers Regional Separatist, he was also part of Union for a Popular Movement which followed 'Liberal conservatism Gaullism' his voter type now seem to think France needs someone super authority strong, maybe not a new 'Hitler' or 'Stalin' or 'Napoleon' but he says he will join up with other Rightwings. In 10 years the France will be totally ruined and non-existent!
Unless the patriots unite

Crime happens even in place that are highly controlled with people screened and interviewed and selected for scientific research, there is even crime although very rare there is 'Crime' in places as far as in the South Pole in Antarctica. People are known to get unhappy and go on strike for example incidents at the Skylab Station and MIR Station.
maybe Mars will be something totally different, it could have Cyborgs for example or one day the AI Robot politician will outnumber the Male and Female humans

Last edited by Mars_B4_Moon (2023-07-07 06:58:53)


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