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#1 2021-06-27 14:41:15

Void
Member
Registered: 2011-12-29
Posts: 3,877

Terraforming Earth

Terraforming Earth

This is my post #571 from: "Index» Not So Free Chat» When Science becomes perverted by Politics."

Good thinking by my evaluation.  Not very far from many other things.

This is particularly similar to some of my past and recent thinking:

Quote: (By kbd512 per conversation with Spacenut)

We need to use nuclear power to pump the sea water inland, solar thermal power to convert the sea water into fresh water, and then dump the salt in the great salt flats.  Adding more salt to nature's land speed record race track won't hurt anything.  The Russians and the Chinese can do the same, in order to stop the spread of the Gobi Desert.

I would try to get a pilot project for Southern California, presuming Mexico can get favor from it, and that Southern California can have enough power against Northern California to get it done.

This would involve the Salton Sea:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Salton_Sea

What I am thinking of is Hydro Storage between the Gulf of California and the Salton Sea.  As it is I believe that the Salton Sea is becoming too salty for fish.
A solution would be to generate energy during the night by dropping sea water into it, and then using energy, hopefully solar, perhaps thermal, to pump the water back up into the sea.   So then the Salton Sea would experience something like tides, and perhaps the salinity could be reduced in that little salty lake.  There is plenty more that I am interested in, but with the permission of the high powers I will open a terraforming topic for the expansion of this, so that I do not further interrupt your conversation any further.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2021-06-27 14:45:17)


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#2 2021-06-27 14:46:43

Void
Member
Registered: 2011-12-29
Posts: 3,877

Re: Terraforming Earth

Building on the previous post, we already do limited management of the Earth.  If needed I can name things, but I am sure that can be done later if someone requires it.

So, my thinking that if we are managing the Earth, we should hope to improve our management skills.

While I have already mentioned Hydro Storage for power systems, in this case likely involving a lot of solar power, I also want to suggest cooling off the sky, in hopes of inducing increased precipitation.

The basis of my thinking is something a read a long time ago, where it was proposed to push back the deserts by planting vegetation.  The assertion was that the green vegetation, would reflect less photons back into the high sky where rain might form, than would the relatively bare desert soil.  So more heat on the ground, and less heat high in the sky, supposedly could facilitate rain.

We do have two evaporators in the proximity of the Salton Sea.  First the body of water itself, and second, the farmlands around it which I believe are irrigated by the Colorado River.  If you could cool off the sky, you might get more rain.

It is a "Catch 22", however to use vegetation, as you have to have enough moisture for it to grow in the first place.

Fairly long time ago I though of green bricks, surfacing the desert, but of course I did not think it to be producing anything of value.

So, then there could be solar panels, or solar thermal systems.

Of these, I would prefer the solar thermal, although it could be a mix.

Solar Thermal can be stored.  I will bring other materials about that in later.  And of course if you can make immediate electricity, then you could pump water out of the Salton Sea during the day, into the ocean, producing a "Low Tide" by nightfall.

Pumping such water which would be more salty into the ocean, could have toxic effects on the Gulf of California, but the interesting thing is, the more you did it the less toxic the result might be.  And the more you did it, the more energy storage you would have for nighttime and cloudy days that must occur even in Southern California I presume.

Lakes that do not have outlets, tend to vary in size, which can be inconvenient for land owners, recreation facilities.  However, in this scheme, the lakes "Tides" could be controlled very well, I expect.  So this would be another value.

Further on I may speculate as to if the; https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Los_Angeles_Aqueduct
might be adapted for hydro electric storage.  I certainly don't know.  That could be a good thing.  However I would like to see Los Angeles get most of its water from the sea, from Solar Thermal.  But of course there would be enormous political and economic disruptions to try to do that.  But maybe we could cool off the sky above Los Angeles and bring more rain.  The Pacific Ocean is a big evaporator.

A little rest.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2021-06-27 15:08:18)


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#3 2021-06-28 10:11:10

Void
Member
Registered: 2011-12-29
Posts: 3,877

Re: Terraforming Earth

This is more, the collection of resources for a post that I intend to complete today.

From Peter Zeihan, about energy:
https://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=pe … M%3DHDRSC3

I feel that he does give a reference to what might be the nature of reality per energy, at this time.
He does suggest that given better energy storage capabilities, everything in orange, as per solar energy, may make sense to
a degree.  For North America this is a great deal of the map, and even into the prarie provences of Canada.
As for wind power, he does seem to neglect costal and on water wind power.  So, costal Europe has some good locations for
wind power, and also, the high plains of North America.

So then this "Sand" method should have it's place in the schemes to make solar and wind practicle.

An energy storage method that is down to Earth smile
https://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=di … &FORM=VIRE

I think that the simplicity of the above system has it's merits.  Just to use up junk electrical power.  I know someone who
has a single house "Off peak power" system.  It just takes up a small portion of a utility room.  I should think that large
buildings might even have their own off peak power storage.  Because most of the USA is at lower latitudes than Finland, and
may also have wind power which may work in the winter, large scale thermal storage systems may be less needed to be of value.
But still I am sure that they would have their place in North America.

Although I like wind and solar pannels, I especially like Heliostats.  In such a system you might store heat energy without
resorting to the generation of electrical power.

I am going to hunt down a reference which I place elsewhere on this site, where storage temperatures of 1000 deg. C are
mentioned.  Such a system might allow not just the heating of buildings, but perhaps even the generation of electricity
on demand 24/7.

https://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=ho … &FORM=VIRE

Wind power devices are unlikely to alter the temperature of the sky, maybe shade the soil a bit.
Solar panels will shade the soil and also reduce the amount of heat to go to the sky when they are in operation.
I like Heliostats, for shading crops and the soil they are in, and for reducing the temperature of the sky, while the sun
shines.  If the sky is already cooled by this method, it is possible that during the night it will get cold enough
for rain or perhaps even snow.

So, at least for Earth, this could be a terraforming tool.

I think that one step we should seek out is to get more useful water for locations where wind and solar energy are abundant.  Even if we do get superconductors,
that would still be an additional cost.  Better perhaps, to move some populations
to the locations of the energy.  That then requires more abundant water resources.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2021-06-28 12:19:17)


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#4 2021-06-28 14:33:36

louis
Member
From: UK
Registered: 2008-03-24
Posts: 6,854

Re: Terraforming Earth

The Sahara was green not so long ago.

https://www.livescience.com/will-sahara … green.html

If the world is warming under our human influence, then it looks like it will turn green again - so we are already terraforming. That can only be good as a way of using up the increased water vapour.


Void wrote:

Terraforming Earth

This is my post #571 from: "Index» Not So Free Chat» When Science becomes perverted by Politics."

Good thinking by my evaluation.  Not very far from many other things.

This is particularly similar to some of my past and recent thinking:

Quote: (By kbd512 per conversation with Spacenut)

We need to use nuclear power to pump the sea water inland, solar thermal power to convert the sea water into fresh water, and then dump the salt in the great salt flats.  Adding more salt to nature's land speed record race track won't hurt anything.  The Russians and the Chinese can do the same, in order to stop the spread of the Gobi Desert.

I would try to get a pilot project for Southern California, presuming Mexico can get favor from it, and that Southern California can have enough power against Northern California to get it done.

This would involve the Salton Sea:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Salton_Sea

What I am thinking of is Hydro Storage between the Gulf of California and the Salton Sea.  As it is I believe that the Salton Sea is becoming too salty for fish.
A solution would be to generate energy during the night by dropping sea water into it, and then using energy, hopefully solar, perhaps thermal, to pump the water back up into the sea.   So then the Salton Sea would experience something like tides, and perhaps the salinity could be reduced in that little salty lake.  There is plenty more that I am interested in, but with the permission of the high powers I will open a terraforming topic for the expansion of this, so that I do not further interrupt your conversation any further.

Done.


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#5 2021-06-28 14:57:25

Void
Member
Registered: 2011-12-29
Posts: 3,877

Re: Terraforming Earth

Good input Louis.

I read the materials, and they said the Sahara turned into desert in only 200 years.

If my assertion that vegetation cools the sky is true, then perhaps it is explained.

Some vegetation would resist the desert for a while, but little by little it would die out in the dryer areas, and then above that location the ground reflection to the sky would inhibit precipitations.

The night of the Sahara is surprisingly cool at times.
https://thinkmorocco.com/sahara-desert- … %20Celsius.
Quote:

The Sahara Desert temperature is usually between 30°C and 50°C during the day. The highest temperature ever recorded in the Sahara Desert is 58°C. At night, the average temperature is between 10 and 20 degrees Celsius.

What is needed is a source of water vapor.  They suggested that hot summers with a certain tilt of the Earth would draw moisture from the ocean.  Then if the moisture is drawn into a cold altitude, rain might occur.  Having vegetation would also be a reservoir for repeat rains, but a more humid atmosphere would lead to a condensation situation I am not sure of.

One factor we have just now that they do not mention is that plants do not have to loose as much moisture through their stomata since the atmosphere has more CO2 in it.

https://principia-scientific.com/co2-cl … ng%20world.
Quote:

CO2 ‘Climate Change’ Shrinks Sahara Desert By Whopping 8%!

OK, so that's good and bad.  If you like water it is good, if you are strongly adapted to desert, then perhaps that is bad.

Most climate change anxious people can only see a dark lining in their clouded minds.  I prefer to think that I can have an open mind.

The shrinking of that dessert by CO2 abundance should also lead to a reservoir of moisture that repeatedly rains to adjacent areas, and so the feedback might reduce the desert even more.

Is this good, or bad, or not natural, or are humans natural, and so what they do is natural?

I guess I will punt.

------

It seems that we may have some latitude to change the nature of the world for better or worse.  Who determines what that might be, I guess the future may tell.

This would be a situation similar to the Salton Sea, where it may be possible to store energy, and also do aquaculture:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Qattara_Depression

How about an Israel Canal, and involve the Dead Sea, for Hydro Storage of solar power, and  also maybe aquaculture?

https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/sue … -1.9668705

But I am most interested in North America, and to a degree the UK and Europe.

There have been some notions that eventually the UK might join to NAFTA per Canada.   Time will tell.


Done

Last edited by Void (2021-06-28 15:13:06)


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#6 2021-06-28 17:44:51

louis
Member
From: UK
Registered: 2008-03-24
Posts: 6,854

Re: Terraforming Earth

Since you're interested in this subject Void, just wondered whether you were aware of the plan by some guy (German I think) back in the 1950s to drain the Mediterranean and increase the land area around the Med by something like 20%? It got serious consideration at the time, when food shortages were still a very recent memory and the idea of creating new farmland was attractive.

Such mega-projects have been considered for a while. The Soviet Union had plans to divert rivers flowing north, to make them flow south to and irrigate huge areas of central Asia. I think they actually started on those plans.

The UK could quite easily start rebuilding Doggerland - in very low tides the land in the middle of the North Sea is revealed. It could be built up and reclaimed.

Void wrote:

Good input Louis.

I read the materials, and they said the Sahara turned into desert in only 200 years.

If my assertion that vegetation cools the sky is true, then perhaps it is explained.

Some vegetation would resist the desert for a while, but little by little it would die out in the dryer areas, and then above that location the ground reflection to the sky would inhibit precipitations.

The night of the Sahara is surprisingly cool at times.
https://thinkmorocco.com/sahara-desert- … %20Celsius.
Quote:

The Sahara Desert temperature is usually between 30°C and 50°C during the day. The highest temperature ever recorded in the Sahara Desert is 58°C. At night, the average temperature is between 10 and 20 degrees Celsius.

What is needed is a source of water vapor.  They suggested that hot summers with a certain tilt of the Earth would draw moisture from the ocean.  Then if the moisture is drawn into a cold altitude, rain might occur.  Having vegetation would also be a reservoir for repeat rains, but a more humid atmosphere would lead to a condensation situation I am not sure of.

One factor we have just now that they do not mention is that plants do not have to loose as much moisture through their stomata since the atmosphere has more CO2 in it.

https://principia-scientific.com/co2-cl … ng%20world.
Quote:

CO2 ‘Climate Change’ Shrinks Sahara Desert By Whopping 8%!

OK, so that's good and bad.  If you like water it is good, if you are strongly adapted to desert, then perhaps that is bad.

Most climate change anxious people can only see a dark lining in their clouded minds.  I prefer to think that I can have an open mind.

The shrinking of that dessert by CO2 abundance should also lead to a reservoir of moisture that repeatedly rains to adjacent areas, and so the feedback might reduce the desert even more.

Is this good, or bad, or not natural, or are humans natural, and so what they do is natural?

I guess I will punt.

------

It seems that we may have some latitude to change the nature of the world for better or worse.  Who determines what that might be, I guess the future may tell.

This would be a situation similar to the Salton Sea, where it may be possible to store energy, and also do aquaculture:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Qattara_Depression

How about an Israel Canal, and involve the Dead Sea, for Hydro Storage of solar power, and  also maybe aquaculture?

https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/sue … -1.9668705

But I am most interested in North America, and to a degree the UK and Europe.

There have been some notions that eventually the UK might join to NAFTA per Canada.   Time will tell.


Done

Last edited by louis (2021-06-28 17:48:00)


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#7 2021-06-28 22:50:58

Void
Member
Registered: 2011-12-29
Posts: 3,877

Re: Terraforming Earth

All of those things are interesting to consider.

It could be that we might think to induce an ice age on Earth.  That sounds silly of course, as we do not have the social means to satisfy those who would loose in that, and still although I do not expect such a thing, it is an interesting thing to consider, as although much polar area would be under ice, and actually much polar area might be productive grasslands, also much continental shelf would become land, where people could breath a more enriched Oxygen mix, and even just a little more atmosphere depth might be more protective from space and solar radiation.

I think we can afford to imagine many realities, of course in the real world we have to choose what is possible.

But inventive stuff, I like it.

Done.


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#8 2021-06-30 21:10:25

Void
Member
Registered: 2011-12-29
Posts: 3,877

Re: Terraforming Earth

I have to say that I am liking Heliostats more and more.

They are energy handling robots.  And they can probably be very standardized.

Of course my immediate interest is in greening a great basin arid area.  My feeling
is that if these are spaced properly, they can capture much of the energy which would
otherwise evaporate mositure out of the soil, and that which would project from the
ground into the levels of atmosphere we we might want rain clouds, or even snow clouds
to form on occasion.

By doing this, I believe that semi-arid land could be greened, between tha Helostats,
And that green would also contribute to cooling the sky.

I am going to have a look at Mars, for this tool.  I do not consider it to be off topic
because if we use tools from Earth to make Mars more Earth like, I feel that is actually
pretty close to "On Topic".

I feel that a good move would be to equalize the polar temperatures with the low latitude
temperatures.

What this might do, is to allow water ice to spread over the whole planet, including the equator.

Another hoped for advantage would be to stiffle dust storms.  It seems to me that dust storms
are in part caused by a differential temperature on the planet.  If the differential temperature
were reduced, then the dust storms should be reduced.  That would make the planet more
suitable for humans.

I think that it is possible that in the past the tilt of the planet was just right, to cause
a general equal distribution of water(Ice) all over the planet.  We don't have the tools to tilt
the planet, but we could cool the surface of Mars at the lower latitudes, and add energy to the
higher latitudes by various means, orbital power stations being a possibility.  Of course Elon's
flash nukes might be used for the hard core polar areas, if possible.

My guess is that at that point the air pressure on Mars would be at least 11 mBar, and at that
pressure snowfalls and snow melts and temporary streams are said to be possible by some.

Additional atmospheric pressure might eventually be obtained by warming the sub-surface of the high
latitudes in general.  Also artificial ice covered lakes or seas (With heliostats shading them),

Would have a bottom liquid layer at least above the freezing point of water.

Heat rejections could be of a temporary or permanent type.  Temporary would be to store the heat
in a substance such as water, sand, or rocks.  Lava tubes also perhaps.

A more permanent heat rejection to the universe could be accomplished by aiming the mirrors to just
bounce the light out into space, or preferably by collecting the heat as stored, in a substance
such as water, sand, or rock(s).  By using the heliostats as radiators, they could be part of heat
engines to generate electrical and mechanical power.

As I have suggested many times, the ice covered waters could be biologically activate with chemicals
and artifical lights.  Perhaps even windows of some kind.

Then returning to Earth, it might be possible to alter the planets processes in a similar way.

Of course the Earth is very much covered by Oceans, so that will be hard.

As I see it the Mars I have suggested would be excellent to accessing the Asteroids for the benefit
of the human race, who most likely will still have a major presence on the Earth.

Good Enough,

Done.


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#9 2021-07-02 10:59:11

Void
Member
Registered: 2011-12-29
Posts: 3,877

Re: Terraforming Earth

Here is something I am focusing on at this time.

https://gcaptain.com/elon-musks-boring- … 0to%20date.
Quote:

Elon Musk’s tunneling startup the Boring Co. is working on much wider tunnels than publicly announced, which could significantly expand the reach of the business.

The tunnels that the company is pitching to some potential clients are 21 feet in diameter, dwarfing the 12-feet tunnels the Boring Co. has built to date. The wider throughway would accommodate two shipping containers side by side, according to a copy of a pitch obtained by Bloomberg.

It is quite likely that they are not thinking in terms such as I might.  Still, I want to throw out some food for immagination, for alternatives I might think of,
and would welcome more innovation from the membership, should they wish to provide it.

I will try not to overdevelop what I present, as such behaviors might cut off innovations from others, and myself in the
future.

As I imagine it, the fault that the Boring Company may have excess "Tailings" to dispose of could become an asset.

And I am not limited in my thinking to the Earth.  Mars also is of interest.  Hit me with an "Off Topic" restraint, and I will
not respond well.

But lets look at the Earth for now.  I am most particularly interested in locations where the "Green Energy" is most available.
To be honest, I just a little bit dispise the phrase "Green Energy".  Just seems like a bunch of pseudo peagan hippies came
up with it.  I am looking for productive outcomes, not some strange drug related dementia, where logic and math do not count.

But, fine, "Green Energy".

So, the places where "Green Energy" might be sensible are some of the coasts mostly per offshore wind.
The American South West, including the Great Basin, which would mostly be solar.
The North American Continent, per the Great Plains, and possibly extending northward even into Canada.  Much would be wind
power, but with Heliostat systems, perhaps even solar power, with new inventions.

In this post, however, I am mostly interested in the Windy places of the Great Plains.  I would hope to suggest a system that
would start there and eventually possibly connect to the Mississippi river navagation system, and even cross into the Great
Basin area even just in dreams to the Pacific Coast.  And also, we could hope into the prairie provences of Canada, and perhaps
even more.

I am not going to bother to go to Metric, as allowing the edit function of my mind is going to inhibit the production of
seeds of possible innovation.

So, if you were to bore a 21 foot tunnel in the Great Plains, or even, we hope >21 foot, we would need justification in an
economic sense. I think that eventually the existing towns could be connected, but what if your purpose was to drill a tunnel.
Build human habitations, and capture the native energy sources?  Could you justify the costs of the operations?

Well, I cannot give a solid yes, but I can suggest some possibilities that should be pondered, in my opinion.

To properly get to this, I will start with my first thinkings, and then move to what I have now.

Originally, I thought, why not make bricks and fill the bottom 1/2 of them with a heat exchanger made of bricks?  Why not then
build habitations on land that can be affordable?  Very large "Archologies"?  Those would be places where humans could
conduct activities with efficieny, due to short distances, and we would hope intellegent constructions.

So, these might be built using "Boring Bricks".  My understanding is that such bricks, are not stadardized to current construction
expectations.  However, I anticipate that new methods could be invented for these "Archologies", so the nature of the bricks
and the Archologies would have Harmony.

It is interesting that the first concept for such tunnels was "Hyperloop" with vacuum tunnels.  Honestly, I think that that
may have applicatoins, but in the now time the Boring Company seems to be making tunnels that are ~Air Pressure.  Cars in them
may be able to travel in faster speeds, but the levels of need for vacuum are eliminated.  I rather like that.

But any new tunnels at ~21 feet, are apparently to be for cargo.  So, is there such a hurry?  With good planning then river
trafic can be sufficient, and efficient, per energy/cost.  See "Peter Zeihan" about the value of the Mississippi River System,
to the USA, and North America.

So, now where as I was thinking 40 % of the tunnel volumes being bricks on the lower sections, and cargo shipped in the above
sections of such tunnels, I am thinking Fresh Water or Brines in the lower sections of the tunnel(s), and cargo shipments
floating on that.

And so you have an economic value in having passages that can ship cargo, even in a Canada winter, on water of some temperature
desired.  And so now it is then a "Heat sink".  Depending on the fluid, Fresh or extreme brine, you may store cold or hot in
these fluids.  So then you may have an economic asset, to partially pay for the tunnels.

And then there is the possility of aquiculture in the waters, provided that the temperatures are not too extreme.  In many
places, hay and other low grade products are fed to cattle.  However fish being cold blooded for the most part, may be more
efficient.  So, then this could be an asset to help pay for the tunnels.

If cold water was desired for cooling in the warm season, then evaporative cooling would involve allowing cold winter air
into the tunnels.  If you needed to preserve the water, then you would need heat exchangers with dry cooling.

And obviously in the summer, you could use heliostat heat to generate power and dump heat into the waters of the tunnels.

Heat pumps to heat and cool the archologies could be used, against these heat reservoirs. 

If you chilled the tunnel waters to near freezing in the winters, then the tunnel waters could be presented moist summer
air, and so then condense some of that mosture into the waters.

And these tunnels could serve to a degree as cisterns for irregular rainfalls.

And of course a continent wide, and even bigger system could re-distribute water on the basis of availability and needs.


------

Of course some of this might work for Mars as well.

If this stimulates inovative thinking, I consider that a good return on investment of time and effort.

Done.


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#10 2021-07-07 16:20:40

Void
Member
Registered: 2011-12-29
Posts: 3,877

Re: Terraforming Earth

I choose to continue with the Moon, as I can see that what could be done on Earth, (And Mars), could
also be of interest for the Moon.

Should you wish to declair me "Off Topic", I might say that the Moon is claimed by many to have come
in part from the Earth, to be its sibling.  Or we may choose to view it as a binary planet.

For the Moon, we might have many questions, and we should as we do not have sufficient information.

But we now have per the previous posts, methods to store enormous amounts of power in Lunar materisls.

For the Moon, water seems a non-starter to store thermal energy.  So, of course, regolith is the sensible
choice.  We have enormouse lava tubes to explore, it would seem.  Energy directed into them for instance
is a possible option.  So, if we did that, what temperature?  Could there be a way to melt the floors?
Could then those melted floors be insulated by a internal roof, and vacuum?  Can this incandess, and shine
photons to a receptor in the internal roof?  How bright?  How hot?  Visible light?  Infrared?  I am avoiding
heat engines which would need fluids, and so wondering about something like a solar cell.  This might
warent consideration.  If it is a lower temperature, then still there can be methods, including combining
infrared photons to produce a shorter wavelength.

And still prefered, I think would be liquid rock as it may be possible to obtain Oxygen and metals and such
from it using a machine worked on by the Brittish/Europeans.

So, then an objective to reach for.

So, then a potential economic positive for the Moon. 

How many people on the Moon?  Well, let discovery establish what that can be.  We do have the likelyhood of
a very large autonomous robotic labor force on the Moon, with human telepresence.

And in my dreams, I hope for delivery of metalic materials from the Moon to the Earth.  Yes, I know we don't
yet have the propulsion means, but I think it likely that it will emerge.  I already have notions. 
And so such materials delivered to needed locations will assist stabilization of the Earths climate, and also
enable greater energy resources, in my opinion.  And so I have closed the loop to make sure that this post can
reside in this topic.

Ha Ha!  smile

Done


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#11 2021-07-07 19:03:04

Void
Member
Registered: 2011-12-29
Posts: 3,877

Re: Terraforming Earth

And at this point I wish to suggest a multi-use system which would possibly assist in
moving materials from the Moon to elsewhere, such as Earth.

The use of Heliostats on the Moon, it has occured to me, could be quite beneficial for
such an effort.  Clearly they might be involved in collecting energy for the Moon, but
also, they may be used at times for other purposes.

The one I am most interested in is to give energy to an orbital propulsion system.  But
also, I consider using them to warm up cold water, in order to cause rain to fall in
deserts. 

Just because I say that something could be done does not mandate that it will be done.
Rather I wish to list potential tools that could be beneficial to humans both on Earth
and elsewhere.

I have previously mentioned that I think that Heliostats on Mars, might double to prevent
or reduce dust storm activity.  For Earth, heliostats on the surface of Earth, may change
the precipitation patterns.  While this might seem dangerous, I would note that some country
could decide to nuke another country tomorrow, but what would they earn with that?  Quite
likely preventitative methods could be incorporated to prevent using Lunar heliostats as
a "Death Weapon".  We really have no choice.  We either have methods to control dangerous
things, or humans die, perhaps all of them.  It means "Grow Up!", it's about time.


To give propulsion to spacecraft from surface based heliostats on Earth, there would be a
lot of interference.  For Mars, except for dust storms, there would be much less of a
problem.

But for the Moon, little to no interference, except that 1/2 of the time it would be night.
A concentration of energy delivered to a propulsion device probably indicates that the mass
of the device may be reduced, and so more energy can be devoted to moving payload.

So, back to the Moon, a heliostat system could heat sub-surface and covered rock to liquid.
When desired, such a system could direct massive amounts of energy to orbital objects.  One
option is to use that energy to expell Oxygen from the Moon, to provide propulsion.  It can
be considered, it is not mandated.
Our interests should go.  Mars?  Moon? Orbital Habs?

All of the above, of course.  There wiil be some people for each of them.  And the tools
needed to access any of them will be very similar to the needs of the other options.

It is silly to choose only one, as if we have one chance only and limited resources.  Obviouslly
even SpaceX is looking at the Moon.  And really, tonnage to LEO, and the Moon, and Mars,
suggests that orbital habs will be facilitated.

Done.


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#12 2021-07-19 11:16:47

Void
Member
Registered: 2011-12-29
Posts: 3,877

Re: Terraforming Earth

This lookes pretty good!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2ue53mBUtNY

Per the video, of course other people have been thinking of associating Photovoltaics with agriculture.
In this case it is solar cells, but they are robotic.

I of course like Heliostats, although I have no objection to robotic solar pannels.

Wonderful information is distributed here.  Just as I suspected, plants have a saturation point for
light.  After that they may "Sweat" to keep cool.  So by shading them water may be consirved.

In the case of Heliostats, I think that a better ability to manipulate rain may exist.  Also, I think
they may do a better job of heat rejection into windows of the sky, or just stuffing energy into
storage devices.  But I am very open minded.  I like what is demonstrated here.

So, I am quite comfortable with what is likely an emerging technology.

Forests of robotic solar pannels and Heliostats, where they shelter farm crops.  In this case then it
is rather likely that the farm crops should be tended also by even more mobile robots.

So, we have robots that manipulate sunlight, and even more mobile robots that tend crops.

I am going to suggest that the motors for these might use CO2.  This could be dry ice, or liquid CO2,
but perhaps just compressed CO2.  And so I will indicate why I think this could be a good thing to do.

The Sahara is said to have "Greened" up by about 9% because of elevated CO2. And the reason is supposed
to be that the plants loose less water as they do not have to keep their stomata open as much to get
the CO2 they need.  So, I speculate that it is reasonable to consider if it would be profitable to
Irrigate crops with CO2 in a safe proportion.  This may consirve water.  And the CO2, if avaiable will
in part become part of the crops. 

It may be recognized that it will take energy to provide water in any case, and if the plants need less
water, it may be justified to provide CO2.

I think it merrits consideration.

Done.


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#13 2021-07-19 18:09:03

louis
Member
From: UK
Registered: 2008-03-24
Posts: 6,854

Re: Terraforming Earth

Interesting, especially in the context of the Sahara. Also, you could have mylar strips to deflect light. If the PV panels overhead were used to generate electricity to dehumidify the air and operate cooling fans in polytunnels you would probably have a very viable system.

Put it all together and the vast expanse of the Sahara could become a huge food producing area.

I always like to remind people that the tiny Netherlands is responsible 17% of world food exports.


Void wrote:

This lookes pretty good!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2ue53mBUtNY

Per the video, of course other people have been thinking of associating Photovoltaics with agriculture.
In this case it is solar cells, but they are robotic.

I of course like Heliostats, although I have no objection to robotic solar pannels.

Wonderful information is distributed here.  Just as I suspected, plants have a saturation point for
light.  After that they may "Sweat" to keep cool.  So by shading them water may be consirved.

In the case of Heliostats, I think that a better ability to manipulate rain may exist.  Also, I think
they may do a better job of heat rejection into windows of the sky, or just stuffing energy into
storage devices.  But I am very open minded.  I like what is demonstrated here.

So, I am quite comfortable with what is likely an emerging technology.

Forests of robotic solar pannels and Heliostats, where they shelter farm crops.  In this case then it
is rather likely that the farm crops should be tended also by even more mobile robots.

So, we have robots that manipulate sunlight, and even more mobile robots that tend crops.

I am going to suggest that the motors for these might use CO2.  This could be dry ice, or liquid CO2,
but perhaps just compressed CO2.  And so I will indicate why I think this could be a good thing to do.

The Sahara is said to have "Greened" up by about 9% because of elevated CO2. And the reason is supposed
to be that the plants loose less water as they do not have to keep their stomata open as much to get
the CO2 they need.  So, I speculate that it is reasonable to consider if it would be profitable to
Irrigate crops with CO2 in a safe proportion.  This may consirve water.  And the CO2, if avaiable will
in part become part of the crops. 

It may be recognized that it will take energy to provide water in any case, and if the plants need less
water, it may be justified to provide CO2.

I think it merrits consideration.

Done.


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#14 2021-07-19 19:31:31

Void
Member
Registered: 2011-12-29
Posts: 3,877

Re: Terraforming Earth

I appreciate your attention to this topic Louis....

The search phrase "Agrivoltaic".  There is some positive and some negitive results.

I think that some of the negitive may be as some crops may need to be handled by
large farm equipment, and the structures may interfere.  However I anticipate that
with the rise of robotics, stoop farm labor may be disposed of, and some plants may
be quite productive per these methods.

This article shows promise:
https://www.nrel.gov/news/program/2019/ … %20More%20
Quote:

Food production

Total chiltepin fruit production was three times greater in the agrivoltaic system compared to the control
Water-use efficiency for the jalapeño was 157% greater in the agrivoltaic system
For the cherry tomato, water-use efficiency was 65% greater and total fruit production doubled in the agrivoltaic system
Water savings

When irrigating every two days, soil moisture remained approximately 15% greater in the agrivoltaic system
When irrigating daily, soil moisture in the agrivoltaic system remained 5% greater before the next watering
Improved renewable energy production

Traditional ground-mounted PV panels were substantially warmer during the day than those with the plant-based understory
The agrivoltaic PV panels were cooler during daytime hours compared to the traditional panel array by approximately 9°C, allowing for better performance.

I also note that as I suspected, the day night temperature swings were moderated.  This may ward off early killing frosts
I think.

----

I would like to bring the Boring Company into this.  What I suggest may or may not be practicle.  Perhaps in a later time.

Ice Caves:  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ice_cave

So, then I expect to consider if the Boring Company could manufacture "Ice Caves".  They still might be for trasportation.

But in the winter, they would be deeply ventilated and would then preserve cold for summer cooling needs.  The opposite
also might be done, that is to store heat.  Howver in this topic I have included other people works to store heat up to
1000 degrees C.  So using tunnels to store heat seems less productive than storing cold.  The transit tunnels need to be
ventalated anyway.  At a minimum in the summer, with output air used to cool things, and at a maximum rate in the winter.

Boring Bricks:
https://www.teslarati.com/elon-musk-bor … spose%20of.

There remains a problem of what to do with what comes out of the tunnels.  They have made some bricks.

I suggest making pillars that may hold up solar pannels, and also as desired Heliostats.

The bricks only use a little cement as I understand it, they are compressed a great deal to form them.

Used in agrivoltaics, I would expect these to have heat storage properties as well as the ability to hold up the structures.
It may even be possible that they could form dew or frost on them so that the melt would mositen the soil.  Probably
special coatings might help.

As for Concrete making a lot of CO2 emissions, I suggest that Heliostatic heating could be used instead of burning stuff
to make the Cement.

Indeed, it seems likely that in certain climates, the solar pannels or the Heliostat mirrors could tilt so that dew may run
off of them into the soils.  There are places such as Namibia, where this may work.

Again, I think it is worth examination.

Done.


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#15 2021-07-20 14:52:51

louis
Member
From: UK
Registered: 2008-03-24
Posts: 6,854

Re: Terraforming Earth

UN population estimates suggest Africa will have 4 billion people by 2100, 80 years away. The alternative to greening the Sahara, is browning the rainforest, with results that would be difficult to predict.

Are there grains or grain substitutes you could grow under this system?  Perhaps you could grow two layers of rice (one with natural sunlight and one with PV lighting, three crops a year, as in many parts of the tropics).


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#16 2021-07-22 20:48:08

Void
Member
Registered: 2011-12-29
Posts: 3,877

Re: Terraforming Earth

Louis,

Per my readings of the materials produced by Peter Zeihan, Africa has several problems
which could make it not such a great story.  But as you have indicated, perhaps
technology, could make the story better.

I have noticed a very nice possibility that Peter Zeihan himself (I think it is a him).
smile  Now days????

Anyway he has tweeted about an Iron/Air battery, which if real has a vast potential.

https://twitter.com/PeterZeihan/status/ … 0192120835

I think that this is an article that does not demand that you subscribe:
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech … -days.html

But there also may be several other things that indicate potential other than that.

And I intend to mention those as well. 

To be continued.....

Last edited by Void (2021-07-22 20:50:35)


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#17 2021-07-24 11:01:10

Void
Member
Registered: 2011-12-29
Posts: 3,877

Re: Terraforming Earth

I found some claims to agricultural achievements, that I think are worth a look.
Certaily if true, chances are the concerns of the future may be less about food,
and perhaps more about clean water and power.

RNA breakthrough, 50% more crops:

https://researchinnovation.uchicago.edu … University.

https://phys.org/news/2021-07-rna-break … -rice.html

Fungi for Roots of plants:  (This may help if Mars provides poor soil, I think)

https://phys.org/news/2021-07-beetroot- … iotic.html

And that is about that.  I presumed there may be someone interested in such things.

I placed this under "Life Support/Crops also.

However I see these potential developments as helping to sustain and Earth
civilization as being able to make the Earth a better Earth than it might become.

That is important, I feel as the longer we can prosper the Earth, very likely the
better the chances to more humans into various space locations with wealth
and long term success.

Done.


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#18 2021-07-24 11:02:57

Void
Member
Registered: 2011-12-29
Posts: 3,877

Re: Terraforming Earth

At some point not too long from now, I am going to visit "Air Batteries", and hope
to link them to stored heat devices that have already been mentioned in this topic, and also I hope to have a method to use the waste heat to distill water, and perhaps
serve other tasks.



Well, here is the air battery:

https://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=ai … &FORM=VIRE

Here are some heat storage methods that have been previously mentioned in post #3
:
https://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=di … &FORM=VIRE

https://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=ho … &FORM=VIRE

I also want to try to involve the boring company:

Basically make a big mass of big bricks, berm the sides of the heap, to keep winds at bay.  Let the brick mass cool at night, probably in a dry fashion.  Something like this could be interesting for Mars as well.

---

If you run hot dry exhaust air in a mix with "Sea Water", you might humidify it.
Then run that through the brick pile, to condense water.

Alternately, just let the mass dry cool at night, and then suck damp morning or
day air down into it to condense water.  This might work in Namibia.

Anyway, along with pumped hydro, and Iron/Air batteries, Lithium Batteries, I
begin to see some chances of eventually taming wind and solar power methods to a degree worth the effort.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2021-07-24 11:14:04)


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#19 2021-07-24 16:37:11

louis
Member
From: UK
Registered: 2008-03-24
Posts: 6,854

Re: Terraforming Earth

That ended up on a separate thread - yes the iron-air battery might well be the Holy Grail that finally ends green energy intermittency (not that intermittency is a huge issue in the Sahara - one of the more dependable weather systems!).


Void wrote:

Louis,

Per my readings of the materials produced by Peter Zeihan, Africa has several problems
which could make it not such a great story.  But as you have indicated, perhaps
technology, could make the story better.

I have noticed a very nice possibility that Peter Zeihan himself (I think it is a him).
smile  Now days????

Anyway he has tweeted about an Iron/Air battery, which if real has a vast potential.

https://twitter.com/PeterZeihan/status/ … 0192120835

I think that this is an article that does not demand that you subscribe:
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech … -days.html

But there also may be several other things that indicate potential other than that.

And I intend to mention those as well. 

To be continued.....


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#20 2021-07-24 17:07:44

SpaceNut
Administrator
From: New Hampshire
Registered: 2004-07-22
Posts: 23,024

Re: Terraforming Earth

Oxygen is ok within any of the designs but our atmosphere is made up of nitrogen which if harnessed would be a greater reservoir to energy creation versus the 20 plus percentage with oxygen

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#21 2021-07-24 20:51:58

Void
Member
Registered: 2011-12-29
Posts: 3,877

Re: Terraforming Earth

The Iron/Air storage device is quite unknown.  It may not be poisoned by Nitrogen
which is reluctant to react.

I quite quickly was interested in the small content of native Oxygen on Mars.  About twice that of CO.  But I do fear poisoning of the system by the large amount of CO2 and the small amount of CO.

There is much to learn.  We may hope that a way can be found.  Imagine a battery
that absorbs O2 from the Martian atmosphere, and then Exhales a concentration of
it.  That is of course quite optimistic, and perhaps ill informed.

But Still....

Done.


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#22 2021-07-27 07:15:56

Void
Member
Registered: 2011-12-29
Posts: 3,877

Re: Terraforming Earth

Very happy to have found this:
https://techxplore.com/news/2021-07-ene … %20produce.

Quote:

Officials with battery maker Form Energy have announced the development of the Iron-Air 100-hour storage battery—a battery meant to store electricity created from renewable sources such as solar and wind. As part of their announcement, they note that their new battery is based on iron, not lithium, and thus is much less expensive to produce.

If this is so, then it is very possible that anything in Peter Zeihan orange or his wind maps, will become much more real.

I fear to be punished for stealing content.

So, you might query for "Peter Zeihan, solar Maps or wind".

I think the video is intended for distribution as the maker is directly references as the source/owner here:

https://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=pe … M%3DHDRSC3

Done.
I will try to fish up a video.

Last edited by Void (2021-07-27 07:20:28)


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#23 2021-07-29 05:30:09

Void
Member
Registered: 2011-12-29
Posts: 3,877

Re: Terraforming Earth

I guess this can belong here:

From "Index» Terraformation» cooling venus with solar energy beamed blind"
Post #12

Quote:

Agreed, forest fires, promoted by stimulation of evergreen tree growth, is in my
opinion wrong.

If we do believe that the deserts and tundra are greening because of a rise in CO2,
then we can consider that it is not only the greenhouse effect of CO2 that may
warm the Earth, but the greater abundance of evergreen plant tissues.  And of course
this could lead to more fires.

I will connect to some articles on it, which I fear have shown that some people do not
have a complete vision of what may be happening if the level of CO2 is rising.

https://www.nasa.gov/feature/goddard/20 … ning-earth
Quote:

From a quarter to half of Earth’s vegetated lands has shown significant greening over the last 35 years largely due to rising levels of atmospheric carbon dioxide, according to a new study published in the journal Nature Climate Change on April 25.

I guess one article is enough for now.  Some people celebrate that CO2 is being "Sequestered".
But we need to consider Albedo.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Albedo

Greenhouse Gas Effects, AND albedo effects need to be considered.
And then per the https://pleistocenepark.ru/ people, you also have to consider the insulating effects of packed and unpacked snow.

I could easily ignore greenhouse gasses, and instead venture the guess that humans entering the Mammoth Steppe and killing off
the megafauna, set off a chain reaction where, in general, evergreen trees have been marching north, and ice has been in retreat.

It may be a possible truth.  Now, in this case we may suggest that indeed rising CO2 has more greatly facilitated the march of
the trees.  We can do that even ignoring any greenhouse effect notions.

I believe that in general the evergreen trees are relatively successful against a lack of water.  So, adding CO2 to the
atmosphere helps them to say hydrated, as they do not have to loose as much water to get the CO2 they need.

The Mammoths are gone.  There are some notions of "De-extinction" for them, and I am not much against it.  But we need a
solution now that is compatible with human existence.

There are some possible treatments available, to cool the Earth, it seems to me.

1) Do what the so called "Greens" are doing and try to manipulate people to be less of a burden.  In the end these are the
same types of people who give genocide.  Don't mistake it.  These are the same people who judge who is worthy to live and
who is not.  They do give alarms but are useless to solve the problem, as in general they are the same people who have tried
to edit the bulk human genome, to create a "SuperMan" race.  They must not be trusted.

2) The repair people.  These are the people who hear the alarms, and try to find a solution(s).

3) The insulation people, otherwise defined as the Pleistocene Park people.  The recognize that it is possible that megafauna
can pack the snow and so reduce winter insulation for the permafrost.

4) Albedo people.  We have considered Albedo for terraforming Mars, so why not Earth.  If it may be true that humans already
terraformed the Earth and caused the end of the ice age, then we may consider this tool.

We know that the Russians want a Seaway in the Arctic, so there will be limits to their participation.  But, I think using
the Albedo method, we can perhaps stabilize the situation so that they can have their Seaway, and yet we all prosper.  This
would by it's nature satisfy the insulation issue for snow, or at least improve the situation.

And this is not to say that we cannot be concerned about rising CO2 greenhouse effects.  I simply am addressing a tool that
could be used to the benefit of the human race, by my reckoning.

A wonderful factor is that it should take only 3 main countries to implement the treatment.  Russia, Canada, and the USA.
However there may be others, such as Scandinavia.

I guess I would claim that some places in the North are "OverTreed".  Some where part of the previous Biome, the "Mammoth
Steppe", and some were under ice caps.  But we can ignore this and think to do what may work.  We do not want anther ice age
but we do want a stable productive planet.

So, I am aware that in the mid zones of the Prairie Provinces of Canada, as defined by longitude or North/South visualizations
are the "Parklands" or temperate Savanah.  Humans do rather well in Savanah.

Perhaps this could help:
https://www.bing.com/images/search?view … ajaxserp=0

I am not sure that we want aspen and grasslands, as Moose are killed by paracites that White tailed deer carry.

But, some formulation makes sense to me.  It needs a lot of thought.

The point is that for Russia, Canada, and the USA, at least in the snow belts, it should be considered to convert perhaps 50%
of the forest lands occupied primarily by evergreen trees into grasslands.

Per Albedo, we should be able to measure a number for evergreen trees, and snow covered grassland, and wet or dry grasslands.
These should be four different numbers.  I anticipate that the one with the least heat rejection into outer space is the
evergreen lands.

I think I have a fabulous imagining about possible futures for Venus.  But the above has delayed my communications.

Sorry about the bad spellings, I recon are in the above.  Thumb in your eye about that even some times.  smile

I don't much like talk people sometimes.  I believe that playing with people instead of objects can lead to many things.
Most of them are kind.  But those who crave power, may use words to do very immoral things.

I'm done for now.

Last edited by Void (2021-07-29 05:32:08)


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#24 2021-07-29 05:33:43

Void
Member
Registered: 2011-12-29
Posts: 3,877

Re: Terraforming Earth

I guess this can belong here:

From "Index» Terraformation» cooling venus with solar energy beamed blind"
Post #14


Quote

Here are quite a few "ice age Earth Maps":
https://www.bing.com/images/search?q=ic … BasicHover

This one is a gif, it seems:
https://www.bing.com/images/search?view … ajaxserp=0

That is some fun.

------

OK, once and for all can it be understood that there is no "Natural" state for our planet per amount of ice.  It changes.

The greenhouse effect, the amount of reflective ice, the distributions of various types of vegetation, and clouds all
work to cause the situation.

Humans, we believe influence some of this.  So, if we are going to exist and so influence the Earth, we might address
vegetation distributions, while indeed it would be nice to also have some control over greenhouse gasses.

per the maps from 10,000 or so years ago, we can choose appropriate instead of a certain natural.  It is natural for the
Earth to be inconvenient at times.

So, in art there are those who want an untouched world, a "Wild" world.  There are those who like groomed gardens.

I think those who crave "Natural" are nuts, as there is no on instance of it.

Where possible the northern forests should be partially replaced with grasslands which will be more productive, and could
help to feed people.  This would also address heating that is related to Albedo.

The crazies will go nuts about this of course.  Growing and harvesting animals for food?  Well, when the human race has
stopped eating farm animals, we can worry about it if we want to.  As the north may become "Parklands" by human and robot
manipulations, the trees cut down should be used to manufacture usful items, and so to keep that "Carbon" out of circulation
for a while.

As the parklands would be more agriculturally productive, it would be needed to keep the amount of Wolfs, and other
predators from increasing too much.  That is because the Parklands would feed people, and that would take pressure off
of farmlands.

So, this could be beneficial to feed people, and to cool the climate.

Done.

Last edited by Void (2021-07-29 05:35:31)


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#25 2021-08-01 08:06:35

Void
Member
Registered: 2011-12-29
Posts: 3,877

Re: Terraforming Earth

I believe that I posted this on the forum some other place but could not find it.
NovaSolix

http://www.novasolix.com/
Quote:

NovaSolix is developing the technology that will generate the cleanest and cheapest form of energy on Earth: rectifying antennas that convert light to electricity from the entire solar spectrum.
NANOSCALE ANTENNAS
NovaSolix’s carbon nanotube (CNT) antennas are small enough to match the nano-scale wavelengths of sunlight.  Antennas can convert electromagnetic spectrum much more efficiently than photovoltaic (PV) cells.  When perfected, NovaSolix antennas will capture far more energy from the sun, and far more efficiently, achieving near 90%  efficiency (versus ~20% for PV).

NANOSCALE DIODES
NovaSolix has successfully manufactured the world's fastest diode – a critical component for energy conversion.

NANOSCALE MANUFACTURING
From the beginning, NovaSolix engineers have developed our products so that they can be manufactured using roll-to-roll advanced manufacturing techniques.  At scale, these techniques ensure that NovaSolix’s products will be the cheapest form of energy on Earth.

WORLD'S MOST EFFICIENT SOLAR ENERGY
Our solution, manufactured at scale, will enable solar energy to be produced at a cost per kWh less than fossil fuels.

What I have read and listened to indicates that their devices will be non-toxic,
will cost 10% of what existing solar panels cost, and will be 45% efficient, and
then later 90% efficient.

Of course they will need to actually do it.

So, if they achieve the 90% efficiency goal, is my mind correct to think that
some of the 10% will be reflected off, and some converted to heat?

If this topic has been followed by the reader, you know that I am interested in
shading soils, and also cooling the sky. 

Solar panels are inclined to heat up, I presume, because they are so inefficient.
A Heliostat mirror should not heat up too much, if it is of high quality.

So, on small installations, it does seem to me that these new devices could be
good in gardens.

Might large installations create country "Cold Islands", and city "Heat Islands"?

Well my computer is bogging down.

Done

Last edited by Void (2021-08-01 08:16:11)


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