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#1 2021-04-01 08:29:29

Void
Member
Registered: 2011-12-29
Posts: 3,884

Space Stations

The options as to where this goes are awkward for sure.  I know that there can be a place for the ISS, but are space stations human missions?  I guess so, as there would likely be temporary human presence at the very least.

These could be in LEO.

There is also the widely hated "Lunar Gateway".  (Hated here, at least).

And when does a space station become a spaceship, and for how long.  If it travels from Earth to Mars or somewhere else, I guess for a while it is a spaceship.  But when it arrives, then it may become a space station.  These are some of the silly effects of language on thinking things through.  There is a possibility that our society could be benefited some what by occasional pillory of English teachers and their like.

https://www.bing.com/search?q=pillory+d … 570e06c90b

The moderators can of course remove or otherwise abuse this post and topic.  They hold those powers smile

This site is rather biased towards some image of people on the surface of Mars, living a harsh life, or dying probably in many cases.  After all every person who goes to Mars should be expected to die at some point.  Anyone who stays on Earth similarly is expected to die some time.

But we have had space stations, have space stations, and aspire to have many more.



However Space Stations hold the promise of "Bread and Butter" for space.  That is the LEO ones may become an addictive as microgravity manufacturing and even space tourism, (Which is more frivolous), may become expected parts of the economies(s).

So, Axium has plans.
https://www.axiomspace.com/

Sierra Nevada Corp.
Quote:

Nevada-based Sierra Nevada Corp. plans to launch a commercial space station with inflatable human habitats within seven years, the company announced in a

https://www.upi.com/Science_News/2021/0 … 617221660/

Then there is "The Gateway Foundation"
https://gatewayspaceport.com/
Which is not directly involved with microgravity, but they could have such in association with their spinning wheel habitat.

The ISS still exists, and the "Lunar Gateway" may exist in the future, like it or not.

And there are likely others, such as from other cultures/countries/groups.

So, a topic not specific to the ISS I think.

Introduction Done.

Last edited by Void (2021-04-01 08:45:55)


I like people who criticize angels dancing on a pinhead.  I also like it when angels dance on my pinhead.

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#2 2021-04-01 08:48:32

Void
Member
Registered: 2011-12-29
Posts: 3,884

Re: Space Stations


I like people who criticize angels dancing on a pinhead.  I also like it when angels dance on my pinhead.

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#3 2021-04-01 08:50:42

Void
Member
Registered: 2011-12-29
Posts: 3,884

Re: Space Stations

Axium looks great, but this one promises to redeem both inflatable habitats and the Dream Chaser.  Of course I want both Axium and Sierra-Nevada

https://www.upi.com/Science_News/2021/0 … 617221660/

Quote:

ORLANDO, Fla., March 31 (UPI) -- Nevada-based Sierra Nevada Corp. plans to launch a commercial space station with inflatable human habitats within seven years, the company announced in a press conference Wednesday.

Sierra Nevada already has seven NASA contracts to launch its Dream Chaser spaceplane, which is being developed to fly cargo to the International Space Station starting in 2022.

Well I might live to see it.

Last edited by Void (2021-04-01 08:53:25)


I like people who criticize angels dancing on a pinhead.  I also like it when angels dance on my pinhead.

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#4 2021-04-01 08:54:42

Void
Member
Registered: 2011-12-29
Posts: 3,884

Re: Space Stations

While for a time the "Bread and Butter" of this will be in LEO, if it works at all, at some point it should be possible to move large structures like this from the Earth/Moon subsystem to other locations, such as Mars/Phobos/Diemos.

Ballistic Capture might work for that.
https://www.scientificamerican.com/arti … e%20planet.

Quote:

A New Way to Reach Mars Safely, Anytime and on the Cheap
Ballistic capture, a low-energy method that has coasted spacecraft into lunar orbit, could help humanity visit the Red Planet much more often

The above must be distinguished from topics where we have hard landings of materials onto the surface of an object such as Mars.

Typically it is treated here like a deformed child that is not accepted.  Well that does not hurt me.  So what.  Anyway I mention it again.  This method may not require a heat shield to enter Martian orbit.  However it does need a subsequent push of some kind to stay in orbit, eventually.  Missions of this kind can be launched much more often, and it blends well with space propulsion methods such as ion rockets.
The flight time is longer, so that if you involve humans you must consider what the effects of more potential radiation exposure and more microgravity time may imply.   So, if you do have synthetic gravity and radiation protection that is good enough, then you might not mind.

For material goods, though I think it may have value.

It might fit in with electric propulsion methods, and also solar wind propulsion, and perhaps photon propulsion methods.

Done.


Going to pause now.

Last edited by Void (2021-04-01 09:02:01)


I like people who criticize angels dancing on a pinhead.  I also like it when angels dance on my pinhead.

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#5 2021-04-01 19:28:55

GW Johnson
Member
From: McGregor, Texas USA
Registered: 2011-12-04
Posts: 4,571
Website

Re: Space Stations

The description of ballistic capture as I read it,  lacks any mention of how you achieve more-or-less Mars orbital velocity about the sun.  Most transfer trajectories have velocities or velocity components about the sun that are slower than Mars orbital velocity about the sun,  by around 5.5 to 7.5 km/s relative to Mars.  Mars escape velocity is 5 km/s.  Mars low orbit velocity is 3.5 km/s.

I have real heartburn over the description that Hohmann transfer is higher energy.  It is minimum possible total delta-vee to get there from here.   Flying faster than Hohmann requires a bigger departure delta-vee.  There is the delta-vee to speed up near Mars orbital velocity when you get there,  in order not to crash (or enter directly) but to enter orbit.  Mars is literally running over you from behind when you get there,  almost no matter what trajectory you fly to get there. 

The descriptions on the Sci Am site just do not address those physics.  Hence my heartburn.  There are no orbits about the sun that take you from Earth to Mars,  and yet arrive at Mars,  moving about the sun at about the same speed as Mars. 

GW


GW Johnson
McGregor,  Texas

"There is nothing as expensive as a dead crew,  especially one dead from a bad management decision"

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#6 2021-04-01 20:08:56

Void
Member
Registered: 2011-12-29
Posts: 3,884

Re: Space Stations

I am very sad that I have made you unhappy GW.  I deeply regret it.  Please understand that if I read something on the internet and am foolish about what it means, I never intended to challenge your authority, which I respect very much.

It seems sad then that others can suggest that ballistic capture is possible.  What chances does someone like me have to filter that out.  They said it had been done for the Moon, and said that it could be done for Mars.

I guess, I have to drift off for a while and consider if I should bother to be here at all if I cannot trust what is presented to me, and cannot calculate if it is false.  I must be above my pay grade here, and am capable of leaving if I so discover it.

A bit sad, but I have many good things without this site.  Perhaps more without this site.

Bye.


I like people who criticize angels dancing on a pinhead.  I also like it when angels dance on my pinhead.

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#7 2021-04-02 12:48:03

GW Johnson
Member
From: McGregor, Texas USA
Registered: 2011-12-04
Posts: 4,571
Website

Re: Space Stations

Void:

I'm not unhappy,  I was just rather skeptical of what I was reading in the link you provided. 

There are no coasting orbits that I can imagine that would have a velocity at Mars's distance that was (1) comparable to Mars orbital velocity,  and (2) be anywhere near parallel to Mars's orbital path,  while still passing anywhere near the Earth. 

That being said,  I thought about it for a while,  and realized there is a powered spiral-out path that might work,  if the spacecraft were under very low thrust continuously.  The only suitable propulsion that we understand would be electric propulsion,  meaning ion thrusters.  I don't honestly know if solar sailing has the thrust to do it,  but it might.  I just don't know. 

One might do a minimal escape from Earth,  turn on the ion thrusters,  and slowly spiral out toward the orbit of Mars.  You want to limit the the (extremely-slow) acceleration,  so that your spiral never departs very far from local circular.  That way you are moving pretty much at Mars's speed ,  and still nearly parallel to Mars's path,  when you get there.  At least I think it works that way. 

That kind of limited-acceleration spiral would be a rather long trip,  far longer than Hohmann transfer,  for sure.  But it is not coasting,  it is powered,  just not very much.

Most of the ion-powered spiral proposals I had previously seen accelerated to midpoint,  then decelerated the rest of the way,  to enable a spiral-in type of capture.  Even those take longer than Hohmann to get there.  If you let your arrival speed get too high,  you are moving way above Mars escape when you pass by Mars,  and there can be no capture without a large rocket burn.  Your velocity will also be significantly non-parallel to Mars's orbital velocity.  The usual proposals do the accelerate-decelerate thing in order to cut travel time.

For all I know,  maybe even the usual ion-thrusted accelerate-decelerate spiral would work for ballistic capture.  The spiral should have a velocity at Mars distance close enough to Mars orbit velocity,  so as to be within Mars escape relative to Mars (otherwise there could be no spiral-in).  I suppose if you did it "just right",  the ballistic capture into orbit could substitute for the spiral-in maneuver. 

This ballistic capture thing is definitely a different notion.  I just don't know that much about low-thrust spiralling trajectories to say.  The link to the Sci Am thing didn't specify a thrusted spiral trajectory,  which is what threw me off.  I am familiar with ordinary coasting orbits,  and there are none that can match the descriptions in the Sci Am ballistic capture thing.

So,  I guess the bottom line is this:  might work for ion propulsion,  maybe solar sailing.  Won't work for ordinary rockets that spend most of their time coasting. 

GW

Last edited by GW Johnson (2021-04-02 12:55:23)


GW Johnson
McGregor,  Texas

"There is nothing as expensive as a dead crew,  especially one dead from a bad management decision"

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#8 2021-04-02 13:20:03

kbd512
Administrator
Registered: 2015-01-02
Posts: 4,612

Re: Space Stations

Here's a paper on the topic of the ballistic capture technique referenced in the Scientific American article for anyone who is interested:

Earth-Mars Transfers with Ballistic Capture by Edward Belbruno and Francesco Tapputo

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#9 2021-04-02 14:41:23

tahanson43206
Moderator
Registered: 2018-04-27
Posts: 7,297

Re: Space Stations

For kbd512 re #8

Thanks for the link to the paper by Belbruno and Tapputo ... It seems to have been published after 2010, based upon a scan of the references:

https://arxiv.org/pdf/1410.8856.pdf



[2] M.J. Chung, S.J. Hatch, J.A. Kangas, S.M. Long, R.B. Roncoli, and T.H.
Sweetser. Trans-Lunar Cruise Trajectory Design of GRAIL (Gravity Recovery and Interior Laboratory) Mission. In Paper AIAA 2010-8384, AIAA
Guidance, Navigation, and Control Conference, Toronto, Ontario, Canada,
2-5 August, 2010, 2010.

Earth–Mars Transfers with Ballistic Capture
Edward Belbruno1 Francesco Topputo2
1 Princeton University, Princeton, New Jersey 08544, USA
2 Politecnico di Milano, Milan 20156, Italy
Abstract
We construct a new type of transfer from the Earth to Mars, which ends
in ballistic capture. This results in a substantial savings in capture ∆v
from that of a classical Hohmann transfer under certain conditions. This
is accomplished by first becoming captured at Mars, very distant from
the planet, and then from there, following a ballistic capture transfer
to a desired altitude within a ballistic capture set. This is achieved by
manipulating the stable sets, or sets of initial conditions whose orbits
satisfy a simple definition of stability. This transfer type may be of interest
for Mars missions because of lower capture ∆v, moderate flight time, and
flexibility of launch period from the Earth.

(th)

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#10 2021-04-02 16:06:36

SpaceNut
Administrator
From: New Hampshire
Registered: 2004-07-22
Posts: 23,078

Re: Space Stations

Back to station or means as created by Axiom which all started back in 6/19 with the request of NASA.

Its sad that Nasa has taken so long to get this going NASA seeks proposals for commercial ISS modules

ixion-dec2017.jpg

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#11 2021-04-02 16:10:00

SpaceNut
Administrator
From: New Hampshire
Registered: 2004-07-22
Posts: 23,078

Re: Space Stations

it was followed up with art in 1/20
Nasa has yet to change the station from an operations by governement to one that is commercial. Sure they are trying by setting up the commercial cargo and soon human space capability after a time I am sure will switch over to flying none partners to the stations. Since Bean is been quiet about adding more modules or creating that area that is open to private citizens that do not have a military governements backing. The tourist were rich and did do work onboard but for commercial to do more its time for space vacations and learning more about what else can be done as we orbit in LEO.

NASA selects first commercial destination module for International Space Station
axiom-space-iss-commercial-space-station-node-2-forward-port-module-hg.jpg

The Axiom Space module does loook simular to other vehicles that have visited and supported the station in the past.

The element will attach to the space station's Node 2 forward port to demonstrate its ability to provide products and services and begin the transition to a sustainable low-Earth orbit economy in which NASA is one of many customers. NASA and Axiom next will begin negotiations on the terms and price of a firm-fixed-price contract with a five-year base performance period and a two-year option. Developing commercial destinations in low-Earth orbit is one of five elements of NASA's plan to open the International Space Station to new commercial and marketing opportunities. The other elements of the five-point plan include efforts to make station and crew resources available for commercial use through a new commercial use and pricing policy; enable private astronaut missions to the station; seek out and pursue opportunities to stimulate long-term, sustainable demand for these services; and quantify NASA's long-term demand for activities in low-Earth orbit.
"Axiom's work to develop a commercial destination in space is a critical step for NASA to meet its long-term needs for astronaut training, scientific research, and technology demonstrations in low-Earth orbit,"
"We are transforming the way NASA works with industry to benefit the global economy and advance space exploration. It is a similar partnership that this year will return the capability of American astronauts to launch to the space station on American rockets from American soil."

https://www.nasa.gov/leo-economy

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#12 2021-04-02 16:13:51

SpaceNut
Administrator
From: New Hampshire
Registered: 2004-07-22
Posts: 23,078

Re: Space Stations

iIn 12/20 they get into they taxi tourist ride swapping game

Even with space x crewed dragon making there is still an issue for Nasa as they will need to US may buy seat on Russia's Soyuz for astronaut's flight to ISS in Spring 2021,

the April 9th flight currently consist of three Russian cosmonauts: Oleg Novitskiy, Pyotr Dubrov and Sergei Korsakov.
The talks on the issue are being held with the US private company of Axiom Space," the source said.

If such an agreement is reached, US astronaut Mark Vande Hei may replace Korsakov in the crew.

was followed up in 1/21

NASA and SpaceX are targeting no earlier than Tuesday, April 20, for launch of the second crew rotation mission with astronauts on an American rocket and spacecraft from the United States to the International Space Station.

Space firm plans first all-private crew plans to fly to the International Space Station in January 2022, consisting of four astronauts,

Connor and two businessmen, one from Canada and one from Israel, have agreed to pay Axoim $55 million for the experience. The company declined to say whether the tickets are fully paid already, or if the voyagers have made deposits. Axiom's financial arrangement with SpaceX also was not disclosed.

The three men are lining up research projects and educational programs to beam back to Earth during their mission, according to Axiom communications manager Beau Holder.

Axiom has support from NASA as the company builds a successor to the International Space Station, but there are many unknowns about the flight.

Axiom has agreements with NASA to connect privately owned segments to the space station starting in 2024. After the orbiting platform reaches obsolescence -- around 2030 -- Axiom intends to separate its units from the station and fly independently.

Passengers must spend 15 weeks in training after a physical, according to Axiom's mission description.

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#13 2021-04-02 16:19:49

SpaceNut
Administrator
From: New Hampshire
Registered: 2004-07-22
Posts: 23,078

Re: Space Stations

Now in 2/20 they are raising funds

Axiom raises $130M for its space station — and adds Blue Origin alum to its board

Axiom Space is focusing on arranging privately funded trips to the International Space Station. Its first mission, known as Ax-1, is due to send former NASA astronaut Michael Lopez-Alegria and three paying customers to the station in a SpaceX Crew Dragon capsule next year.


Axiom’s plan for its own space station would begin with the launch of a commercial module that would be hooked up to the International Space Station in the 2024 time frame. Additional modules would be added to Axiom’s complex during the years that follow. If the ISS is decommissioned in 2028, as planned, Axiom would detach its modules and operate them independently as a privately owned space station.

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/technolo … d=msedgdhp

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/technolo … d=msedgdhp

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#14 2021-05-22 03:31:48

Mars_B4_Moon
Member
Registered: 2006-03-23
Posts: 884

Re: Space Stations

Tucson firm Paragon working on NASA lunar space station
https://tucson.com/business/tucson-firm … 7e0e6.html

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#15 2021-06-11 15:27:10

Mars_B4_Moon
Member
Registered: 2006-03-23
Posts: 884

Re: Space Stations

Rocket to send crew to Chinese space station
https://www.taipeitimes.com/News/world/ … 2003758995
SpaceX will carry four AxiomSpace crews to and from the spacestation
https://twitter.com/SpaceX/status/1400109750499438595

Russian space agency to submit new orbital station project to government
https://tass.com/science/1300639

Canadarm3 to operate on Lunar Gateway
https://www.plant.ca/general/canadarm3- … ay-213124/

"Canadian manipulator on ISS holed by space debris"
https://www.spacedaily.com/reports/Cana … s_999.html

The first commercial airlock is heading to the International Space Station later this year
https://www.theverge.com/2020/9/15/2143 … deployment

China is seeking international partners to develop the International Lunar Research Station (ILRS).
https://spacenews.com/china-is-aiming-t … h-station/

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#16 2021-06-11 15:43:29

SpaceNut
Administrator
From: New Hampshire
Registered: 2004-07-22
Posts: 23,078

Re: Space Stations

Much like the trip to orbit you need more places to go to make the choices for getting there improve in cost for all...

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#17 2021-07-10 07:57:13

Mars_B4_Moon
Member
Registered: 2006-03-23
Posts: 884

Re: Space Stations

NASA awards contract to Northrop Grumman to build Gateway module
https://spacenews.com/nasa-awards-contr … ay-module/

NASA has awarded a contract worth $935 million to Northrop Grumman to build and integrate the first habitation module for the lunar Gateway.

NASA announced July 9 it finalized a contract with Northrop Grumman to build the Habitation and Logistics Outpost (HALO) module for the Gateway. That module, one of the first for the Gateway, will serve as a habitat for visiting astronauts and a command post for the lunar orbiting facility. It will have docking ports for Orion spacecraft, cargo vehicles like SpaceX’s Dragon XL and lunar landers, as well as for later modules to be added by international partners.


HALO is based on the Cygnus spacecraft that Northrop Grumman uses to transport cargo to the International Space Station, but extensively modified with docking ports, enhanced life support and other new subsystems. “By leveraging our active Cygnus production line, Northrop Grumman can uniquely provide an affordable and reliable HALO module in the time frame needed to support NASA’s Artemis program,” said Steve Krein, vice president of civil and commercial satellites at Northrop Grumman, in a company statement.

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#18 2021-07-10 08:28:09

SpaceNut
Administrator
From: New Hampshire
Registered: 2004-07-22
Posts: 23,078

Re: Space Stations

To the point that void makes in the opening post

widely hated "Lunar Gateway".  (Hated here, at least).

It is that we are tired of going around in circles and not going to the surfaces of those said places that we would place an orbiting station at.

We want the feel our feet on the surface and more....

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#19 2021-07-10 12:59:27

Void
Member
Registered: 2011-12-29
Posts: 3,884

Re: Space Stations

OK, time to heal this wound.

I messed up and blew a fuse.  It was not so much any other members fault, I just
got to a frustration level where I had to trip out and shut down for a while.

As for the Lunar Gateway.....I didn't come up with it.

However my mother always told me that "You have to take it as is comes".  Quite
often that is true.

However "As it comes, appears not to just only be the Lunar Gateway.  It seems to
be SpaceX, and perhaps Dreamchaser, and some other things.  The China and Russia
competition is still there.  They(And you know who) cannot run their balony machine
forever without falling behind.

Taken as wrong, the gateway may be a waste of time relative to other potentials. 
However, it keeps us in the game, and may yield results of value.

I thought the ISS was only a waste of time, taking urine samples for years and years.
However they have yielded some useful results it seems.

We put up with it, especially if other wonderful things are in the works.

As you might know from my posts, I consider the Martian hill sphere to be a wonderful
place for humans to build giant orbital habitats.  Anything learned by the lunar gateway
may be of use.

Done.


I like people who criticize angels dancing on a pinhead.  I also like it when angels dance on my pinhead.

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#20 2021-07-13 13:56:53

Mars_B4_Moon
Member
Registered: 2006-03-23
Posts: 884

Re: Space Stations

NASA moves ahead with plan to support private space stations

https://www.spacedaily.com/reports/NASA … s_999.html

NASA is moving ahead with plans to help fund a new generation of private space stations in an effort to ensure replacements are ready when the International Space Station shuts down in as little as seven years.

NASA intends to retire the 20-year-old ISS in 2028 because its oldest sections are designed for a 30-year lifespan, though the agency may seek an extension to 2030. All such decisions must be approved by space station partners including Russia, Japan and the European Space Agency.

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#21 2021-07-14 17:59:26

Void
Member
Registered: 2011-12-29
Posts: 3,884

Re: Space Stations

Thanks for the previous post.

I am anticipating very large Space Stations/Space Ships that could use the paths
described here.  Of course they would need to be at least small worlds, fully able to
keep humans alive and happy indefinitely.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gLnO0v621k8

Tired.

Done.


I like people who criticize angels dancing on a pinhead.  I also like it when angels dance on my pinhead.

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#22 2021-07-18 18:44:34

SpaceNut
Administrator
From: New Hampshire
Registered: 2004-07-22
Posts: 23,078

Re: Space Stations

Thales Alenia Space to provide the first two pressurized modules for Axiom Space Station

Thales Alenia Space, Joint Venture between Thales (67%) and Leonardo (33%), and Axiom Space of Houston, Texas (USA), have signed the final contract for the development of two key pressurized elements of Axiom Space Station - the world's first commercial space station. Scheduled for launch in 2024 and 2025 respectively, the two elements will originally be docked to the International Space Station (ISS), marking the birth of the new Axiom Station segment. The value of the contract is 110 Million Euro.

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#23 2021-07-29 04:32:36

Mars_B4_Moon
Member
Registered: 2006-03-23
Posts: 884

Re: Space Stations

Machines that move like a slinky toy could be automated and programed with A.I to build space stations?

Europe Launches its new Robotic arm, Which Will Crawl Around the International Space Station Like an Inchworm
https://www.universetoday.com/151973/eu … -inchworm/

I'm not sure what to make of this Russia Ross station news from last year, since they just launched a new module its possible they might be playing politics so maybe take the news with a pinch of salt?



Russia's Energia says ISS is close to ruin, nation should build its own space station instead
https://room.eu.com/news/russias-energi … on-instead
During the discussion, the Flight Director also noted that estimates to fix the problems aboard the ISS would amount to around 10-15 billion rubles, a cost that was deemed “too high” by RSC Energia.
Instead, said Soloviev, it is necessary “to revise the terms of further participation in the program” and focus on the implementation of the Russian Orbital Service Station (ROSS), which is currently being developed at RSC Energia.
ROSS is expected to consist of three to seven modules that can either be run automatically or with a crew of two to four people. As the modules can be replaced, it would mean the station has an unlimited lifetime. The deployment of ROSS is expected at some point after 2024, but no exact dates have been mentioned.

Lunar exploration station with Russia and China involved? Moon base ... the Chinese of course have just launched their own new station in orbit
https://spacenews.com/china-russia-reve … moon-base/

What comes next after the International Space Station ends
https://news.yahoo.com/comes-next-inter … 49137.html

Last edited by Mars_B4_Moon (2021-07-29 04:33:10)

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#24 2021-08-28 11:59:05

Mars_B4_Moon
Member
Registered: 2006-03-23
Posts: 884

Re: Space Stations

Space agencies support ISS extension as NASA warns of space race with China
https://spacenews.com/space-agencies-su … ith-china/

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