Scientist: Ireland is Atlantis?

Palomar · 2004-09-22 08:15:49

http://www.buzzle.com/editorials/text8- … .asp]Click

*I saw this article last month. Decided to finally post it.

Does anyone here believe in the legend of Atlantis? I'm curious about it...can't say I -believe- it, however. Short, enjoyable article. It's been spoofed elsewhere.

Coincidentally, it's the theme of a song (named "Atlantis"...what else?) I particularly enjoy and recently discovered, written years ago by Donovan:

The continent of Atlantis was an island which lay before the
great flood
in the area we now call the Atlantic Ocean.
So great an area of land, that from her western shores
those beautiful sailors journeyed to the South and the North
Americas with ease,
in their ships with painted sails.
To the East Africa was a neighbour, across a short strait of sea
miles.
The great Egyptian age is but a remnant of The Atlantian
culture.
The antediluvian kings colonised the world
All the Gods who play in the mythological dramas
In all legends from all lands were from fair Atlantis.
Knowing her fate, Atlantis sent out ships to all corners of the
Earth.
On board were the Twelve:
The poet, the physician, the farmer, the scientist,
The magician and the other so-called Gods of our legends.
Though Gods they were -
And as the elders of our time choose to remain blind
Let us rejoice and let us sing and dance and ring in the new
Hail Atlantis!

...and then a repetitious chorus.

Donovan speaks the portion I quoted, accompanied by gentle lilting music. A definite must-hear. :;): Romantic, yes...

--Cindy

Cobra Commander · 2004-09-22 08:31:10

Well, I'm generally inclined to think that fantastical stories, whether it be Atlantis, biblical miracles, the Roswell crash etc are based on something, though that something need not be anything of great consequence on its own merits.

So it comes down to what is meant by "finding Atlantis." Discovering what event sparked the story that became the myth we're familiar with may be achievable. Discovering Atlantis, the utopian land of the ancients from which all civilization sprang? The loon-alarm starts blaring.

then when people making such claims say things like this line from the article: "I expect to have my knockers. But we must assume that I am right until others can prove I am wrong."

Now that's crazy. Not to say some big flood in Ireland couldn't have been the source of the legend, but Atlantis itself? ???

But then the whole thing could be completely true for all we know, archaeology isn't an exact science.

Palomar · 2004-09-22 08:40:32

the utopian land of the ancients from which all civilization sprang? The loon-alarm starts blaring.

:laugh:

I needed that this morning. teehee.

Yeah, I'm -not- implying (had better clarify) that I believe Atlantis existed and especially not that it was the utopian fountain from which all subsequent cultures/civilization sprang.

Couldn't resist quoting Donovan's lyrics, though. Got a bit of the romantic in me. And just discovered his song a few months ago. :edit: And, of course, the lyrics encapsulate the legend.

--Cindy

Shaun Barrett · 2004-09-27 06:38:22

If there was ever an Atlantis, I think it must have been where Plato said it was - west of the Pillars of Hercules, in the North Atlantic.
The other places put forward, such as the island of Thera in the Mediterranean, strike me as being too small to support a civilisation of such wealth, power, and sophistication as Atlantis is reported to have been.

Depth soundings in that part of the world have failed to come up with anything resembling a continent, as such, but I often wonder about the Mid-Atlantic Ridge. This is an area of upwelling magma so powerful in its action that it's pushing apart the Americas and Africa/Europe and creating millions of square kilometres of new ocean bed in the process. Suppose for a moment that the forcing apart of those continents was 'briefly' (in geological terms) interrupted, perhaps by a short-lived extra resistance elsewhere in Earth's crust. The unimaginable forces now driving apart the continental plates might have instead pushed the floor of the Atlantic upwards. The spine of the Ridge may have surfaced in the middle of the ocean, forming a long narrow mini-continent of volcanic peaks and islands interspersed with solidified lava plains. Over some tens of thousands of years, the newly exposed volcanic rock would have been weathered into rich soil and colonised by plants and birds from North and South America to the west, and from Europe and Africa to the east. With majestic volcanic peaks, hot springs, a near-perfect sub-tropical climate, and fertile soils, the new continent could have been a virtual paradise on Earth. Atlantis!

This hypothetical explanation for the legend then requires that, in about 9000 BC, the continental drift suddenly resumed for some reason. No longer obstructed by the resistance we've conjured up, the Mid-Atlantic-Ridge collapsed back into the depths, taking Atlantis with it to the bottom of the ocean. According to Plato, this catastrophe occurred in the space of one day. A tectonic event of the magnitude discussed might just conceivably allow for such a time-frame.
In addition, its violence would have destroyed most of the evidence that anything man-made ever stood in the area of the Ridge. The volcanic eruptions on the sea floor which must surely have accompanied the subsidence, together with 11,000 years of constant sedimentary deposition, would have covered up anything that was left.

I suppose my little reverie here actually qualifies as a scientific hypothesis on one point at least. The relatively sudden subsidence of such a land mass should have caused significant waves - tsunamis - which would have left their mark on the coasts on both sides of the Atlantic. So my hypothesis is easily falsifiable, if no such evidence of large waves is found by geologists.

Anybody here know anything about big waves on the Atlantic coast in about 9000 BC?!! ???

But on a more down-to-Earth level, there are some quirky things which call into question the completeness of our archeological and historical knowledge.
My father was Irish and used to tell me about a great warrior from the golden age of Irish legend. This heroic figure, a kind of Celtic Hercules, was called Cuchullain (pronounced Koo-kullen). It was years later that I read or heard about a hero of the ancient Mayas of Central America. This half-man/half-god was called Kukulkan (pronounced Koo-kool-kahn) ... !
Just to add a little more spice to this remarkable phonic coincidence, Kukulkan was described by the Maya as a fair-skinned, bearded man with emerald eyes. (Hmmm.)

Nearly finished! There are some linguistic enigmas, too, which I find interesting. There's a pre-Columbian city in Mexico called Teotihuacan, which means 'City of the Gods'. The pre-Columbian word for temple, or 'house of god', is Teocalli.
What I'm trying to point out here is that the ancient Mexican word for god is 'Teo'. In latin, Deo means 'of god', Deus means 'god' (Zeus, in Greek). In English, the prefix 'theo-' means 'of god' - as in theology and theocracy.

People have made lists of such enigmatic links between peoples who, according to mainstream history and archeology, were never in contact. Atlantis supporters have used such lists as (circumstantial) evidence that all ancient civilisations sprang from one great early civilisation whose shattered remains now lie under metres of mud in the cold dark depths of the Atlantic Ocean.
I wouldn't go quite that far on such scanty evidence but the enigmas nevertheless remain, indicating we've probably still got a great deal to learn about our own pre-history.
:;):

smurf975 · 2004-09-27 14:34:50

AFAIK Plato was a story teller. So why must the atlantis story be true?

Grypd · 2004-09-27 15:35:52

The waves about 9000 BC are they not linked to the canary islands?

The canary islands due to there geology and volcanic origin are an extreme hazard to countries on the west of the atlantic. The rock of the canary Islands are quite porous and allow water to seep in over thousands of years and this results when the next eruption occurs for the water to heat and boil. This causes a massive landslip to be created and this creates a tidal wave in the hundreds of feet high to strike the atlantic coast of the Americas.

Oh and the next eruption is overdue!

Shaun Barrett · 2004-09-27 17:58:25

Hi Smurf975. The Atlantis legend doesn't have to be true at all, you're right. But the legend of the Trojan War was assumed to be all myth and no substance too because, for a start, there was no Troy! Then Schliemann discovered Troy's ruins, including the remains of the "topless towers of Ilium", just as the legends described them.
Now, it's believed that the old stories were probably based on reality, though embellished somewhat for theatrical effect. It's unlikely, for example, that any country of the day could have "launched a thousand ships" as part of a seaborne military campaign!
It was difficult enough to find material evidence of the Trojan War, even though it happened 'only' about 3000 years ago and the land masses on which it occurred are still essentially unchanged. What hope do we have of finding the remains of Atlantis, 11,000 years old, on a continental land mass which was swallowed up by the sea and no longer exists?!
All I was trying to say was that it may be possible Atlantis really did exist out in the Atlantic Ocean and that the Mid-Atlantic-Ridge is as good a place as any to look for it.

Hi Grypd.
I don't know that the Canary Islands have any direct link with legendary Atlantis at all, except perhaps in as much as the volcanic power that might have given rise to Atlantis, and then doomed it, is also responsible for the instability of the Canaries today.
And the waves I was talking about are sheer supposition; there's no actual evidence for them, as far as I know. I just wondered whether anyone here knew of any such evidence, that's all.

Commodore · 2004-09-27 18:11:07

Well, thats dissapointing.

I kid

Mad Grad Student · 2004-09-27 22:02:25

Say, that reminds me, Futurama did a parody of that Donovan song on an episode he guest-starred in. Unfortunately I can't remmeber all of it, but here goes.

The city of Atlanta was once landlocked
Far away from what we now call the Atlantic Ocean

Okay, so I remmeber very very little of the lyrics. But the gist was that Atlanta becomes so starved for tourism in the future that it's relocated to the ocean off the coast of Georgia. The city keeps expanding until one day a giant solid gold statue of Ted Turner is placed on the island and the whole city starts to sink into the ocean.

Knowing her fate, Atlanta sent out a ship to the mainland,
On board was Ted Turner,
Hank Arron,
The magician, and other so-called gods of our legends.
Though gods they were-
The rest chose to remain behind,
And became mermaids to sing, and dance, and ring in the new,
Hail Atlanta!

Fun stuff, Donovan seems to be cool, but I don't really understand the attraction to Hurdy Gurdy Man. That song's just too... not actually a song for my tastes. As for Atlantis, that was one of those things I'd muse about int 5th/6th grade, but now it just seems rather pointless to discuss. Sorry if I'm being the party pooper.

Shaun Barrett · 2004-09-27 23:33:30

Yeah .. Get the hell outa here, MGS!! :angry:

Damned party pooper ... ! :bars2:
Dragging Donovan into the Atlantis discussion, too. Sheesh .. what next?!!
:realllymad:

[Just kidding, MadGrad. ]

Palomar · 2004-09-28 05:32:26

Say, that reminds me, Futurama did a parody of that Donovan song on an episode he guest-starred in. Unfortunately I can't remmeber all of it, but here goes.
The city of Atlanta was once landlocked
Far away from what we now call the Atlantic Ocean
Fun stuff, Donovan seems to be cool, but I don't really understand the attraction to Hurdy Gurdy Man. That song's just too... not actually a song for my tastes.

*Hurdy-Gurdy Man: Well, taste in music -is- subjective. I love that song.

So another song of Donovan's has been parodied...obviously he's "arrived." Despite going on nearly 40 years from the beginning of his international fame, etc., people are still talking about him. Congrats, Donovan.

--Cindy

Cobra Commander · 2004-09-28 05:42:28

The canary islands due to there geology and volcanic origin are an extreme hazard to countries on the west of the atlantic.

It's been on my "if I were a terrorist..." list for quite some time now.

What I find most interesting about Atlantis is that despite the lengths to which its believers will stretch the scantest of evidence, its entirely possible that Atlantis did exist in the distant past. We have all sorts of inconsistencies in the archaeological record and we frequently amend our understanding of our own ancient history, it isn't that far-fetched really.

Of course the arguments that Atlantians spawned all other civilizations seems a bit kooky, but who knows?

It's what I refer to as the "7-11 effect" which basically states that if we can't determine with certainty who robbed the 7-11 last night, how can we determine with certainty what happened thousands of years ago?

Or maybe Plato was just having some fun at our expense.

As for Atlantis, that was one of those things I'd muse about int 5th/6th grade, but now it just seems rather pointless to discuss. Sorry if I'm being the party pooper.

Pointless to discuss Atlantis, Star Wars is too unrealistic, JibJab's 'This Land' should have covered science issues... I get the impression you're not a real fun guy to hang out with.

All in jest. No offense meant.

Shaun Barrett · 2004-09-29 19:48:16

Yes, CC, the "7-11 effect", as you call it, opens up all kinds of possibilities as far as our pre-history is concerned. I think there's a tendency to assume that we have everything sorted out and there's not really a great deal left to learn about our past - a few minor points, perhaps, but nothing too profound. This assumption is strengthened and encouraged by archeologists and historians who've spent their lives and built their reputations following a particular line of accepted wisdom about the past. Doctoral theses may have depended on it and books have been written about it.
This may or may not have a direct bearing on the Atlantis legend at all but there's a Dr. Robert Schoch, associate professor at Boston University, I believe, who has re-dated the sphinx in Egypt. (Most people have probably heard about this guy by now, but perhaps not everybody.)
To cut a long story short, he puts the construction date of the original sphinx - which may not even have been a sphinx at all at the time - at maybe 5000-7000 BC. Of course, if confirmed, this places the known era of monumental-builders-in-stone much closer to the purported age of Atlantis. This, in turn, might tend to add at least some weight to the idea that the civilisations we do know about could have taken their cue from an older one we don't know about.
Of course, Dr. Zahi Hawass, Secretary General of the Supreme Council of Antiquities at Giza, has stridently denied the validity of anything suggesting that Egyptians, as we know them, might not have created everything on the Giza Plateau. The idea that Egyptians came later and restored, remodelled, or otherwise added to, buildings they found there from an earlier civilisation, is blasphemy of the highest order! It makes egyptologists look silly and potentially undermines and/or negates the work of hundreds of scholars over the last two centuries. Feelings have run high on this issue.

From things I've read over a number of years, and while trying to filter out the inevitable mystical mumbo-jumbo that always finds its way into this kind of stuff, I have the impression that a relatively sophisticated seafaring civilisation (or civilisations) probably did exist long before what we currently regard as the dawn of such highly organised societies.
I think we'll see a gradual change in our present world-view, or paradigm, and an evolving acceptance that civilised human society began well before Sumeria, Mesopotamia, and Egypt. I agree with CC that it is entirely possible 'Atlantis' did exist - perhaps not in exactly the form described in legend but at least in some form.

Palomar · 2004-09-29 20:53:11

Sumeria

*Sumeria -- (though some prefer to call it "Sumer," including me) -- is very interesting. Have read some of its history 4 or 5 years ago.

Have read about the "Epoch [or Epic] of Gilgamesh." Their mythology is awesome.

Fascinating stuff. Need to brush up on it again.

Unfortunately slavery existed in their society and the genders were not considered equal.

--Cindy

Grypd · 2004-09-30 08:41:42

Well one real bit of science that could mean that there was some form of world trade system that possibly meant that atlanteans where supposed to have was that certain of the earliest egyptian mummies have traces of cocaine in them. As cocaine was only found in the southern americas there must have been a form of contact.

But this does not give evidence to people saying atlantis exists only that there was contact between the Egyptians and the Indians of south America.

Cobra Commander · 2004-09-30 09:06:12

Great posts Shaun. I really haven't much to add to them. I have heard of the evidence for a much older construction date for the Sphinx, as well as the Egyptian mummies with cocaine traces.

Damn Colombian drug cartels!

All sorts of oddities that merit investigating, despite a vested interest in the staus quo among certain elements.

And yet the Atlantis-zealots keep bringing up the commonality of pyramids as an argument. Say you want to build something tall and permanent and you only have stone and wood to work with... Kinda limits your options. The easiest approach, pyramid. If we ever make contact with an alien civilization I'll bet dollars to dinars right now that they'll have pyramids too.

Another pointless meandering...

smurf975 · 2004-10-01 05:13:30

Yes I agree as I saw a documaintory that explained the evolution of the egyptian pyramids. The showed the very earlist pyramids, who looked not much better then a big pile of rocks. With primitive knownledge and tools the simplest big building that you can build is a pyramid shape.

Also look how at the greek archictecture and roman. The romans invented the arc, which allowed them to build better and bigger building and this with their famous cement.

Grypd · 2004-10-01 09:43:31

Was there not an explorer who made an ocean going vessel out of reeds similar to what was available to the early egyptians.

Also if we want a culture that did do a lot of real ocean exploration let us look to the polynesians who where present everywhere in the pacific and easily could have reached Egypt. Frankly if there is anyone who could have done the early trading that resulted in Cocoa leaves etc being in Egypt it would have been them. And the polynesians where in the americas it was the tribes coming over the ice bridge over the alaska and siberia that displaced them.

smurf975 · 2004-10-01 09:51:42

Was there not an explorer who made an ocean going vessel out of reeds similar to what was available to the early egyptians.
Also if we want a culture that did do a lot of real ocean exploration let us look to the polynesians who where present everywhere in the pacific and easily could have reached Egypt. Frankly if there is anyone who could have done the early trading that resulted in Cocoa leaves etc being in Egypt it would have been them. And the polynesians where in the americas it was the tribes coming over the ice bridge over the alaska and siberia that displaced them.

I remember seeing a site about egyptians being in whats now called Australia. They found hieroglyphs in Australia.

You be the judge your self if this is possible and look at at this http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=& … rch]google search

However I also know they found Greek coins as far as whats called Tanzania nowadays.

Yang Liwei Rocket · 2004-10-01 10:19:38

No I don't think its Atlantis but Irish have some very old stuff

building about 5,000 or 6,000 years old ? Much older than pyramids, built many things by older communities and groups of people back then, and had much undersatnding of math, building and stars
http://www.photosite.de/ireland/Photos/ … s/17-3.png
http://evamd.gmxhome.de/Urlaub/Irland/4 … ..._26.jpg
The the way stones and rocks are in the place, on the shortest day of the year the light from our Sun goes down a massive chamber and lights up some tomb where some important person was buried

I have always heard Altantis is under the sea, so it would not be Ireland

clark · 2004-10-01 11:40:49

Anyone here actually read Plato's account? "Timaeus" and "Critias" would be a good start.

If it ever did exsist, the story is far older than we probably assume. From the account Plato provides, they are suggesting that it was 9,000 years preceeding them- and that was its destruction.

The accounts describe Atlantis as something of an alliance of 10 city states. A Nation if you will. It isn't just one city. It also makes a refrence to a super continent on the opposite side of the Atlantic, which the island of atlantis was situated between.

It seems, again for the account, that the Athenian's were aware of their own loss of ancient history. Without reading from the original text (translations can mislead you) it would seem drought wiped out men, then floods wiped out men- and this happened at some regular interval, destroying the progress of men within the cities. The survivors of the cataclysms were those up in the mountains, unlearned, and had just the names of rulers and traditions, without the understanding of actions or purpose. They taught their kids who were even more clueless.

In the refrence to Atlantis though, they make mention of hot and cold running fountains. Warm baths. They also mention a flat plain situated within a ring of mountains. I dunno, but it sounds to me like it was in the middle of a volcano. When it blew, it took everything with it.

Now, it also makes refrence that when Atlantis sunk, it turned the sea into an impassable mud flat. Imagine a few hundred years of that settiling, that would prevent any previous sea trade. Throw in some floods to wipe out the history, and trade with the other continent stops because no one remembers.

Palomar · 2005-07-12 06:26:18

Well, I'm generally inclined to think that fantastical stories, whether it be Atlantis, biblical miracles,...etc are based on something, though that something need not be anything of great consequence on its own merits.

*Atlantis was an allegory?

The seismology professor personally sees in the Atlantis tale told by the fourth century BC Greek philosopher Plato "an allegory on the decline of a civilisation, with the hint of a true story at its core."

http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20050711/sc … 4716]Greek island holds 3-day conference on Atlantis myth

Will be attended by professionals from a variety of disciplines, coming together from 5 continents.

"Our objective is to hear all hypotheses, take stock of all reliable data, and examine the sources of inspiration," he said.

But would-be speakers with contributions "too fantastical" are apparently being declined.

Some participants are hoping to locate an actual city.

Sounds interesting.

--Cindy

SpaceNut · 2005-07-12 10:23:57

Looking over the historical data of floods, it is noted that the black sea was the site of at least one and that possibly the islands of the mediterian of creete as well as the ageian sea along greece were all part of this nation.

The person that did the reed boat was THOR HEYERDAHL.

Grypd · 2005-07-12 10:41:06

Thanks Spacenut.

Still the first peoples to arrive in the British Isles and this includes Ireland walked. The Sea level due to the glaciers was a lot lower and large areas where above the water line. With the end of the Ice age those areas flooded and who knows this could be one of the "flood" myths.

Then again Atlantis could well be just a good story by a master teller of stories and lets be honest it is a good one and we still appreciate now.

SpaceNut · 2005-07-12 10:44:52

Also I should have included the Bahama's off the coast of the US for an under water road of blocks seem to go into the ocean heading to no where.

One could also interupt flood as to meaning a large tsunami as well.

New Mars Forums

Announcement

#1 2004-09-22 08:15:49

Re: Scientist: Ireland is Atlantis?

#2 2004-09-22 08:31:10

Re: Scientist: Ireland is Atlantis?

#3 2004-09-22 08:40:32

Re: Scientist: Ireland is Atlantis?

#4 2004-09-27 06:38:22

Re: Scientist: Ireland is Atlantis?

#5 2004-09-27 14:34:50

Re: Scientist: Ireland is Atlantis?

#6 2004-09-27 15:35:52

Re: Scientist: Ireland is Atlantis?

#7 2004-09-27 17:58:25

Re: Scientist: Ireland is Atlantis?

#8 2004-09-27 18:11:07

Re: Scientist: Ireland is Atlantis?

#9 2004-09-27 22:02:25

Re: Scientist: Ireland is Atlantis?

#10 2004-09-27 23:33:30

Re: Scientist: Ireland is Atlantis?

#11 2004-09-28 05:32:26

Re: Scientist: Ireland is Atlantis?

#12 2004-09-28 05:42:28

Re: Scientist: Ireland is Atlantis?

#13 2004-09-29 19:48:16

Re: Scientist: Ireland is Atlantis?

#14 2004-09-29 20:53:11

Re: Scientist: Ireland is Atlantis?

#15 2004-09-30 08:41:42

Re: Scientist: Ireland is Atlantis?

#16 2004-09-30 09:06:12

Re: Scientist: Ireland is Atlantis?

#17 2004-10-01 05:13:30

Re: Scientist: Ireland is Atlantis?

#18 2004-10-01 09:43:31

Re: Scientist: Ireland is Atlantis?

#19 2004-10-01 09:51:42

Re: Scientist: Ireland is Atlantis?

#20 2004-10-01 10:19:38

Re: Scientist: Ireland is Atlantis?

#21 2004-10-01 11:40:49

Re: Scientist: Ireland is Atlantis?

#22 2005-07-12 06:26:18

Re: Scientist: Ireland is Atlantis?

#23 2005-07-12 10:23:57

Re: Scientist: Ireland is Atlantis?

#24 2005-07-12 10:41:06

Re: Scientist: Ireland is Atlantis?

#25 2005-07-12 10:44:52

Re: Scientist: Ireland is Atlantis?

Board footer