Regolith Water Vapor

Void · 2020-10-26 15:50:28

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Sub-Topic, water on the Moon. To be obtained from Phys.org, article indicating chances that even small cratered polar shadows may hold ice.
Two articles, are surprising, but seem to fit together.
SOFIA discovers water on sunlit surface of moon:
https://phys.org/news/2020-10-sofia-sun … -moon.html
Quote:

Data from this location reveal water in concentrations of 100 to 412 parts per million—roughly equivalent to a 12-ounce bottle of water—trapped in a cubic meter of soil spread across the lunar surface.

And also....
Tiny moon shadows may harbor hidden stores of ice:
https://phys.org/news/2020-10-tiny-moon … idden.html
Quote(s):

Hidden pockets of water could be much more common on the surface of the moon than scientists once suspected, according to new research led by the University of Colorado Boulder. In some cases, these tiny patches of ice might exist in permanent shadows no bigger than a penny.

"If we're right, water is going to be more accessible for drinking water, for rocket fuel, everything that NASA needs water for," said Hayne, also of the Department of Astrophysical and Planetary Sciences.

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And of course now I will speculate:
Some force is holding the water vapor to the regolith, it seems. I am going to suggest that it could be electrostatic.
Threre may be three primary holders of an electrostatic force. The whole Moon below the regolith, the pieces of the regolith itself, and the water vapor. If the water vapor is induced by something like sunlight to have a different charge than the Moon itself when in sunlight, and also if the regolith has an attracting charge, perhaps this is a way the water might stay.
There must be an effect holding the water vapor. Of course it may be possible to dig up the regolith and process the vapors out of it, but I think we could try for "Vapor Wells".
If you can dig a well with permable sides into the regolith, and mimic the force that is holding the water vapor, then you might draw it into a container to pressurize it and/or condense it.
I am guessing that the regolith may be at a saturation point in some places, so whatever is placing the water vapor there may replenish it. Solar wind and micrometeors.
And it may flow naturally about the surface. This is already suggested in other previous articles.
So, then the question comes, "What about Phobos and Demos, and other apparently dry objects?". "And what about Mars itself?".
If this is true about the Moon, and also Phobos and Demos, then some shifts in strategy are waranted. Could you just poke a straw into Phobos and pull water vapor out? If so, that would be your Hydrolox. And if you could draw CO2 up from the Martian upper atmosphere, then that would be Methalox. And it does seem that those moons may have Carbon anyway, at least Demos.
And of course a colony inside of those moons under those circumstances would be much more favored.
And for Mars, maybe not the same, but could you do a "Bushman" trick and draw water vapor out of the regolith? If so, that might beat the heck out of mining it.
Done.

Calliban · 2020-10-27 04:33:02

It has been known since the Apollo samples were first returned, that lunar regolith contains ~100ppm of hydrogen and 50ppm carbon. I'm not sure that this new discovery tells us anything that we didn't know before. Is there more hydrogen on the moon than was previously anticipated? The way these results have been reported would suggest not. 100-400ppm water vapour is inline with estimates from Apollo samples. About 12 ounces of water per cubic metre of regolith, which is drier than the Sahara. So this new information would appear to confirm what is already known and has been known since the 1970s.

As for water in permanently shadowed craters, the situation has not changed. Such ice has been known to exist for a decade and suspected for much longer. It may be useful some day, but will be logistically difficult to access for early manned missions. Do these results suggest that there is more ice than we knew about before? The news reports are rather vague about that.

What would really be a game changer would be the discovery of large and concentrated reservoirs of water and other volatile materials at regular locations beneath the lunar surface. But as far as I know, no-one has made that discovery. So for the time being, it would appear to me that nothing has been found that would make lunar colonisation any more feasible.

Last edited by Calliban (2020-10-27 04:48:38)

RobertDyck · 2020-10-27 06:22:09

Some people are getting media attention by reporting on things that have been known for a long time. Venus Express entered orbit April 2006. When results were published, it included phosphine gas. But just this year a group interpreting those results made headlines, stated it in a way that got media attention. Their claim that it's an indicator of life is not credible, it's just a way to get media attention. But they reported old data in a sensational way that got their name in the media.

Every couple years we hear through the media that "water was found on Mars!" Right... Water was found by Mars Global Surveyor. It entered Mars orbit in September 1997, conclusive reports of water were published in pier reviewed science journals in 1999. Yet ever couple years we hear a media report claiming this is a new discovery.

Now we have reports about the Moon. As Robert Zubrin said years ago, the Moon is dryer than the Sahara Desert. The Moon is dryer than concrete. Trying to extract water from Lunar regolith is like trying to extract moisture from concrete. But someone got media attention by saying it in a sensational way.

tahanson43206 · 2020-10-27 06:35:06

For kbd512 and GW Johnson ...

Thanks for your comments on the successful use of a nine foot telescope on Earth, flying in an aircraft, to confirm results hinted at by Apollo sample returns.

The Apollo samples were taken from individual sites on the surface of the Moon. The SOPHIA study would appear to be confirming that the data found at the Apollo landing sites can be extrapolated beyond those sites, which is useful to know.

For kbd512, as i read the reports, filtered as they are through writers trying to reach the general public, the distinction would appear to be that the molecules observed are water molecules, and not hydrogen bound to something else.

However, I agree that this should not be presented as "new" information .... it ** is ** the gradual scientific process of confirming and extending earlier results.

(th)

Void · 2020-10-27 12:34:30

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It appears that you three read what you wanted to read, and said what you wanted to say.
I will consider your words to be fertalizer, for the revival of this topic. They did not address my queries, so I have to improvise around them.
Where your statments mostly bypassed my queries, I can invert them into questions, and then respond as I feel is needed.
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I would invite you to read both links again, and find some understanding.
(th) noticed that water and not OH was confirmed.
The first item is the observatory itself. As it made one reading, it might make more. This would then reference the mobility of the water. The question is how mobile the water or OH molecules may be. If it is all permaice, or in glass beads, it should not be very mobile. However the Moon has day/night periods. Repeated measurements should indicate something about mobility. Not everything, and for sure not everything about existing water that might be able to move under a stimulus.
If there is water somehow bound to the Moon, that is also mobile, or can be made mobile, then that would be very important.
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I will fall back for a moment to the "Lunar Concrete" issue. I have been around for a long time. I have watched all of these relegious pronounciations for political reasons. At one time "Lunar Concrete" was promoted. And then the response was, "If there were "Lunar Concrete", you would extract the water from it.
We were told to forget the Moon. It was without hope. And I have theories about which internal and external forces have endevored to promote this relegion, and why. But the need is to prefer to find facts, and not all that. So, quit trying that, I am not that easy.
Alright, if the average of water is somewhat then Lunar concrete, still that is a lot of sub par concrete to extract water from.
And if all Lunar water is static per motion, then the above sentence, and shadowed craters are what might work.
But somehow, you three either neglected to mention or missed, that linked article #2, indicates that there could be very accessible water in small craters at slightly lower latitudes on the Moon. That is you might have a machine that might reach into these for water ice, and yet still have a part of it in the sunlight. Yet to be proven.
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Now what about the possibility of mobile water on the Moon?
Per article #2, it seems rational to suppose that if there is unmoving ice, it came from the results of a mobile stream of water, water vapor at some time.
Per article #1, although allowances have been made for the possible existance of water in glass beads, it suggests that otherwise water is water and not OH.
Water of course not a liquid but a fluid.
If water exists as a gas on the Moon, edging towards plasma, the question is how is it retained in association with the regolith of the Moon?
I have suggested differential electical charge as a possibility, but it could be something else, or maybe water is not mobile on the Moon for the most part. These are important questions.
If it were electrical in nature to some extent, then perhaps there is a method to make the fluid flow electrically and to collect and condense it. I did not like that you impeded this inquiry.
So, I will see if my topic can rise from the regolith, even if it is a zombie for Halloween
Done.

Void · 2020-10-29 06:10:25

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I think there may be a way(s).
Reference Materials:
nasa.gov/mission_pages/LADEE, "Is there an atmosphere on the Moon?"
https://www.nasa.gov/mission_pages/LADE … phere.html
So some really good materials.

It's an infinitesimal amount of air when compared to Earth's atmosphere. At sea level on Earth, we breathe in an atmosphere where each cubic centimeter contains 10,000,000,000,000,000,000 molecules; by comparison the lunar atmosphere has less than 1,000,000 molecules in the same volume. That still sounds like a lot, but it is what we consider to be a very good vacuum on Earth. In fact, the density of the atmosphere at the moon's surface is comparable to the density of the outermost fringes of Earth's atmosphere where the International Space Station orbits.
What is the moon's atmosphere made of? We have some clues. The Apollo 17 mission deployed an instrument called the Lunar Atmospheric Composition Experiment (LACE) on the moon's surface. It detected small amounts of a number of atoms and molecules including helium, argon, and possibly neon, ammonia, methane and carbon dioxide. From here on Earth, researchers using special telescopes that block light from the moon's surface have been able to make images of the glow from sodium and potassium atoms in the moon's atmosphere as they are energized by the sun. Still, we only have a partial list of what makes up the lunar atmosphere. Many other species are expected.
We think that there are several sources for gases in the moon's atmosphere. These include high energy photons and solar wind particles knocking atoms from the lunar surface, chemical reactions between the solar wind and lunar surface material, evaporation of surface material, material released from the impacts of comets and meteoroids, and out-gassing from the moon's interior. But which of these sources and processes are important on the moon? We still don't know.

But unlike the international space station their is a regolith "Sponge" on the Moons surface.
And also a reminder Helium 3 in the sponge. And keep in mind, that some of Jupiters moons, and Ceres may have a "Surface Boundry Atmosphere", which might include Oxygen and CO2.

The technical name for this type of thin, collision-free atmosphere that extends all the way down to the ground is a "surface boundary exosphere." Scientists believe this may be the most common type of atmosphere in the solar system. In addition to the moon, Mercury, the larger asteroids, a number of the moons of the giant planets and even some of the distant Kuiper belt objects out beyond the orbit of Neptune, all may have surface boundary exospheres. But in spite of how common this type of atmosphere is, we know very little about it. Having one right next door on our moon provides us with an outstanding opportunity to improve our understanding.

Space Tethers:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Space_tether
I had some of my first training when vacuum tubes were just on their way out. Space tethers have a relationship to that in some cases.
Moving water on the Moon:
https://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=Th … M%3DHDRSC3
The Angry Astronaut, comes around and puzzles out some things:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tHwIJ7yPpwM
Not bad.
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So, I will see how far I might roll with this.
I have considered a method for Mars, where you might put an anode and cathode down on the surface, and then heat the cathode. Not unlike some vacuum tubes. So, the idea would be to use "Hole" flow rather than electron flow under the regolith surface. Of course the two electrodes have to be connected by a circuit including a power source. What would be the results? Well I could speculate, but really this post is to be focused more on the Moon and Phobos and Demos.
The Moon: If you layed an electric tether down on the Moons surface and had a anode/cathode electrical polarity imposed on it, then positive ions should migrate to the cathode. You might heat the cathode to the degree that the ions are both excited by vibrations and still drawn to the cathode. So then you need a method to collect the ions.
There are various possibilities. You might employ a high vacuum pump with silicon oil. However it seems likely to me that the ions may react chemically. But it could be tried.
You also might try to employ adsorption/desorption using cold/heat.
I have also though of a peizioelectric pump. Electricity applied to an appropriatly designed crystal device could do that.
But these are final collection methods for the "Ion Concentrate" that would be generated at the cathode in this situation.
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Electron beams in space. It could be done. However magnetic fields will interfere, so that has to be taken into account.
Phobos and Demos have a spongy regolith. Some people think that the "VOIDS" may contain water ice. Well maybe or maybe not. I don't feel a need to rely on that. If the "VOIDS" are just hollows of what we call vacuum, then it seems likely that they are filled with gas molecules, at a low density of course.
So, if you put an anode into one place in the surface, and a cathode on the other side, then you might concentrate those ions and gas molecules to the cathode. And then you would want to further compress/condense/gather the concentrate. This should include some Hydrogen, and perhaps some OH and water vapors. Maybe some other things. The solar wind should replenish it continually.
If you could fire electron beams from the anode to the cathode through space in an arc, then the cathode should develope the (-) charge that is desired for this process.
There may have to be repeater stations, as the beam may arc back down to the ground before getting to the other side of the moon(s).
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For the Moon, I am thinking crater(s), rim and central peak(s).
Shoot the electron beams from the rim to the central peak(s).
An alternative for shadowed craters, might be to shoot the beam from one side of the rim to another. Then you don't have to get into the cold shadows.
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I feel that this would be the way to try to go. It reduces the amount of soil disturbances you would have to generate with equipment to work with solid materials.
You would be working with "Fluids".
I have also thought of a pulsing magnetic field to be involved to repeatedly fill the crater with it's field, and then when it collapses fire the electron beams at the central peak. I am hoping that this magnetic field would help in concentrating the "Fluids".
Please be aware that the term "Fluids" does not refer to liquids in this case.
I have also considered balls. Maybe glass balls. They would be hollow. If you imposed an electron cloud to the insides of them, then (+) ions and also just gas molecules may stick to the outer surface by capacitance. Then you might use a piezo electric pump to concentrate them more, perhaps into an adsorption/desorption unit.
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This set of methods, in some sort of assembly may collect from Lunar outgassings, as the results of those will distribute around the Moon for a while, until being swept away by the solar wind.
As for glass beads with water in them, I expect that over time even they break down and leak, and also it seems likely that radiation will also tend to help Hydrogen leak out of them.
Maybe.
My zombie has hopes!
Done.

SpaceNut · 2020-10-29 20:22:36

The thin atmosphere is a result of moon mission exhaust, bombardment by the suns powerful solar winds and the changes that are allowing for water to be on the surface within dark shaded areas.
The real question for water is there any subsurface as in deep in the moon....

Void · 2020-11-01 11:37:16

https://www.msn.com/en-in/news/offbeat/ … r-BB1atbqs
Quote:

The report further mentioned astronomy professor Arlin Crotts from the Columbia University, who had said that the soil samples brought from the moon back to Earth by the Luna 24 probe had shown using infrared absorption spectroscopy that the soil was composed of roughly 0.1% water by mass, with more water appearing further below the surface you went.

So giving due recognition.
I am going to work hard to avoid politics, as it might ruffle the wrong feathers, and in the end serves little to no useful purpose, and very likely get in the way, of a reconsideration of the Moon.
I would appreaciate it if the members would also refrain from the same.
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What follows are my own thoughts.
In my mind it seems that the formation of the Moon would have involved ring disks somewhere in its development.
-Direct acreation from the solar disk.
-Theia(Ology).
-Two or more colliding Moons.
The sun would have been dim relative to now, but might have had high magnetic activity.
I feel that whatever was in the disks would have some protection from the solar wind, by various means. The inner solar disk itself might protect other portions of the disk from both solar wind and solar flux. And It may be possible that the disk(s) had magnetic fields that might have offered protection from solar wind.
In general the Theia theory of a dry Moon, expects that materials ejected from a Earth-Thea collision, would allow molten rock to shed virtually all volitiles.
In that formation theory, a giant impact, is followed by molten lava pieces in microgravity. Then a ring would likely form, and the condensation of the Moon from it.
So, when would the volitlles leave? During acceleration there could be the forces to allow the rocks to melt, the gasses to form bubbles out of the solution, and for them to separate, but the acceleration moment is very short, and most of the rock is under very high pressure, suggesting the pressure would enable volitiles to stay in solution.
Presumably there would be small lava blobs, and large lava blobs in microgravity.
Well, in the cases of the small ones, the gravitational fields would be too small for bubbles to bubble out of the lava. Instead they would be bubbles in microgravity inside of lava. The small chunks would be inclined to form a crust as soon as they cooled, further blocking the exit of volitile materials. Larger lava blobs, if they had a significant gravitational field, would still have a gravity field less than that of the Moon. If of a significant size, then I suppose they could have volcanic venting to a degree, but to the degree that they had enough gravity for that, they would also have enough gravity to have thin atmospheres. Of course if they did not cool off soon enough they would loose the atmosphere. But the solar disk would in part protect them from the sun. Further, the forming ring would have a gravitational field itself, which would be distributed over a large area. The cool down time for such a forming disk should not be all that long. And also the big chunks might have an efficiency problem of venting all of the volitiles out of volcanic vents. There should be disolved volitiles under pressure since for these larger blobs, we expect some kind of a significant gravitational field. It is hard for me to believe that the volitiles in the deeper parts of the magma would efficiently expell all disolved volitiles to bubbles and then the bubbles to a vent.
And finally magnetic fields. The disk might have one as a whole, that would be protective to the loss of volitiles. Each big blob might develope a magnetic field in short order, if there were convecting materials. This would be protective of any think atmospheres which might develop around larger blobs.
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The Moon had a significant atmosphere at one time:
https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2 … 091908.htm
The Moon had a magnetic field:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magnetic_ … P%20period.
and....
https://sservi.nasa.gov/articles/myster … explained/
There are small existing magnetic fields on the Moon today:
https://www.spaceflightinsider.com/miss … %20surface.
I attempted to recover articles about minerals on the Moon that would have formed in the presence of liquid water, but just now cannot, as there is an endless amount of articles about water molocules "Just Discovered" on the Moon.
I will just say that if the Moon for a period of time had a significant atmosphere, understanding how things work on Mars, or how we think they may work, it would not take much of an atmospheric pressure to allow brines to have existed near or on the surface of the Moon if it did have a significant atmosphere. Minerals formed that way might be "Hydrated".
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While I myself would prefer to attempt to mine the atmosphere of the Moon and what is in the regolith by electro-magnetic means, I believe that it will prove likely that there may be minerals containing water and other volitile levels much above the average of the surface.
So, the Moon just like Mars, is showing some promise above that story we were previously given.

Calliban · 2020-11-01 17:19:50

One idea that does intrigue me is the possibility of transporting water at low pressure as brine, flowing through a long plastic pipe, buried in the regolith. A small diameter plastic pipe, maybe a foot in diameter, between a harvesting facility at the poles and a base or colony closer to the equator. Friction in the pipe would reduce flow rate to a trickle. Maybe it wouldn't matter if that trickle was maintained 24/7, some 365 days a year.

SpaceNut · 2020-11-01 19:01:25

Where we have been
gallery-1453866925-apollo-landing-sites.jpg?resize=768:*

What we know happened

Calliban · 2020-11-02 11:50:32

This article appears to contain a great deal of conjecture, but is interesting none the less. Was there once life on the moon?
https://www.standard.co.uk/news/world/t … 94516.html

Terraformer · 2020-11-03 09:20:47

Or maybe... life on Earth came from the Moon.

We are Selenites are heart; our dream is to return to Luna.

Mars_B4_Moon · 2022-02-28 13:03:29

2013 Meteor May Have Been Involved in Creating the Moon

https://futurism.com/the-byte/meteor-russia-moon

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#1 2020-10-26 15:50:28

Regolith Water Vapor

#2 2020-10-27 04:33:02

Re: Regolith Water Vapor

#3 2020-10-27 06:22:09

Re: Regolith Water Vapor

#4 2020-10-27 06:35:06

Re: Regolith Water Vapor

#5 2020-10-27 12:34:30

Re: Regolith Water Vapor

#6 2020-10-29 06:10:25

Re: Regolith Water Vapor

#7 2020-10-29 20:22:36

Re: Regolith Water Vapor

#8 2020-11-01 11:37:16

Re: Regolith Water Vapor

#9 2020-11-01 17:19:50

Re: Regolith Water Vapor

#10 2020-11-01 19:01:25

Re: Regolith Water Vapor

#11 2020-11-02 11:50:32

Re: Regolith Water Vapor

#12 2020-11-03 09:20:47

Re: Regolith Water Vapor

#13 2022-02-28 13:03:29

Re: Regolith Water Vapor

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